View Full Version : Thinking I may break down and finally get something in 9mm
DD977GM2
08-30-2009, 10:55
Went shooting yesterday and got to shoot some fun 9mm firearms. My 2 older boys loved them and I am guessing it is time to breakdown and buy something in 9mm. I have sworn to myself that I will never buy anything in 9mm.
Any others have this dilemna?
I had the same issue some time back, the final deciding factor for me was the cost to shoot versus the larger calibers.
Pistol Packing Preacher
08-30-2009, 11:18
CZ makes the 75B in SA only...
My IDPA sidekick...
Nice, reliable and accurate firearm...
IMHO
[Beer]
I have a CZ SPO1 that I really like.
DD977GM2
08-30-2009, 12:00
I am thinking either an AR in 9mm or an SP89 that I have fired before. They would go along with all the fun toys I aready have.
You can't go wrong with Glock, Sig, or Beretta. Glocks are going to be the least expensive, and no matter how beat up, replace a couple springs and it will work as good as new. Beretta and Sig are a little more expensive, and maybe a little more on the Sig. I got my Sig 226 from a range that used it in their training classes for about 10 years. Externally its ugly as sin(nothing new grips, sights, and duracoat cant fix right?) but they had just replaced the barrel. I went ahead and replaced all the springs for about 30 bucks or so, and could not be happier with it! Shoots great, and has that classic Sig reliability. Not bad for a 250 dollar Sig! My Beretta 92 Shot great, never had a hickup, and was a fairly comfortable gun. downside is that when they wear out, its alot more expensive to get parts for them to "freshen" them up.
theGinsue
08-30-2009, 21:48
I am thinking either an AR in 9mm or an SP89 that I have fired before. They would go along with all the fun toys I aready have.
So, you're talking something in a rifle, not in a handgun. Is that correct?
What's wrong with 9mm at the first place?
What's wrong with 9mm at the first place?
+1
gnihcraes
08-31-2009, 08:06
everyone has their preference, some like 9mm some do not. I'm not fan of .380, but like 9mm... had a friend recently purchase a springfield XDm in 9mm, which he didn't want a 9mm and was set on a .45 but couldn't afford the larger caliber... he likes the 9mm after shooting it some and the ammo is cheaper...
kc.
Are we talking handguns or long guns?
You want inexpensive plinking fun, in 9mm? Get a High Point 995 carbine! Should be around $200 max, if you can find one. Be sure and get extra mags too, they're only 10 rounds, which is the biggest drawback to the HP carbines. Otherwise, they're reliable and accurate, and have a lifetime warranty. Put a cheap BSA red-dot from WalMart on it, and start having fun! Try the Big R Farm and Ranch stores in the area, they carry 'em.
Sure, there's better quality and prettier 9mm carbines, priced accordingly, but the HP's are great fun. Use the savings to buy more ammo.
GunTroll
08-31-2009, 15:56
Went shooting yesterday and got to shoot some fun 9mm firearms. My 2 older boys loved them and I am guessing it is time to breakdown and buy something in 9mm. I have sworn to myself that I will never buy anything in 9mm.
Any others have this dilemna?
Resist the urge and stick to your original promise to yourself. Or go ahead and get all sally'd up and get a 9mm. Didn't ever see John Wayne shoot'n a 9 did you? Stay in the man club!
Resist the urge and stick to your original promise to yourself. Or go ahead and get all sally'd up and get a 9mm. Didn't ever see John Wayne shoot'n a 9 did you? Stay in the man club!
I also never saw John Wayne lay down behind a Barrett .50 cal or flip the on switch on a M134 but that doesn't mean it's not bad ass.
theGinsue
08-31-2009, 20:36
Resist the urge and stick to your original promise to yourself. Or go ahead and get all sally'd up and get a 9mm. Didn't ever see John Wayne shoot'n a 9 did you? Stay in the man club!
Guntroll, you crack me up.
For any of you who need to play the macho card, I expect you all to go out and buy/shoot a S&W 500. While it's got far less recoil/wrist breakage of the .44 Mag, it's definitely got the mega power to make your testosterone flow.
Now, when you're dead broke because of the cost of the ammo for the 500, start saving up to get yourself a 9mm. While I agree that they don't have the force or knock-down power of the larger calibers, you'll actually be able to afford to shoot the gun. The more you can shoot, the better you get. The better shot you are, the less you need to rely on the larger calibers.
Now, I do have to admit that I really enjoy shooting a .44 Magnum from time to time, but my wrists can only take one 6-round cylinder per visit to the range.
DD977GM2
09-01-2009, 17:41
Resist the urge and stick to your original promise to yourself. Or go ahead and get all sally'd up and get a 9mm. Didn't ever see John Wayne shoot'n a 9 did you? Stay in the man club!
Never saw John enlist in the mil during WWII. I dont give a damn that he never shot that. He was shooting blanks in all his movies anyways. Pansy for notjoining and worrying about his career in the movie industry instead of enlisting.
I would do this more for my kids then myself. But then again Iw ant them to shoot real calibers like 45ACP, which my 2 oldest do and the middle son is starting to get the hang of it as he is getting older.
I only shoot imaginary calibers myself.
GunTroll
09-01-2009, 20:01
Didn't see anyone from Hollywood join up for GWOT. Might be a b-lister or two. Maybe even a real star, but name one?
And everyone, 9mm in combat is not a winner. Never heard a soldier say "Man I just love this M9! It puts em' down!" Never!
And I have owned two 9's[Beer]
Since then I did a lot of "manning up"[Weight]!!!!!!!
GunTroll
09-01-2009, 20:03
Never saw John enlist in the mil during WWII. I dont give a damn that he never shot that. He was shooting blanks in all his movies anyways. Pansy for notjoining and worrying about his career in the movie industry instead of enlisting.
Blasphemy!!!! Hang your head in shame you![Rant1]
Let me guess.....Chuck is god?
I did not know it would cost a corner off the man card [ROFL1]
hoot what you like if you can try one before you buy to make sure you like it before you fork out the cash.
theGinsue
09-01-2009, 21:22
I would do this more for my kids then myself. But then again Iw ant them to shoot real calibers like 45ACP, which my 2 oldest do and the middle son is starting to get the hang of it as he is getting older.
I bought my son his first handgun this past January. I asked him what he wanted and he told me he wanted a 1911, so that's what I got him, a Rock Island Armory .45ACP 1911 (Hey, if the kid wants a Colt or a Kimber he can front the money for it himself - dear old dad ain't made of dough!)
Of course, he's only 17 so he can't officially own a handgun, but one day it will officially be his.
Didn't see anyone from Hollywood join up for GWOT. Might be a b-lister or two. Maybe even a real star, but name one?
Okay, so he wasn't "Hollywood", but he was a celebrity who served, giving up a contract for $3.6 million for the GWOT. Who? You may remember NFL Arizona Cardinal Pat Tillman manned up and served in the Army as a Ranger. Pat gave his life for the cause - by friendly fire. Additionally, his brother, Kevin, who was a minor league baseball player joined up and served with him.
DD977GM2
09-02-2009, 18:03
Blasphemy!!!! Hang your head in shame you![Rant1]
Let me guess.....Chuck is god?
Not a chance. I could care less about Chuck. I just dont idolize some film actor that would rather put his film career over the needs of this country and then be buried with FUCKING SAND FROM IWO JIMA. Fucking bullshit. My Dad, USMC 66-72 will probably not be buried with the Sand from Iwo Jima. Yet my Father actually served in a real capacity over that douche. Along with millions of others since WWII and during WWII who will not be buried with Sand from Iwo.Also like antoher member said, Pat Tillman. Army Ranger KIA by friendly fire and gave up a $3.6 million contract to serve his country. #43 on the Arizona Cards.
Never saw John enlist in the mil during WWII. I dont give a damn that he never shot that. He was shooting blanks in all his movies anyways. Pansy for notjoining and worrying about his career in the movie industry instead of enlisting.
That's because He was 34 y/o at the beginning of WWII, with a bad knee,, wasn't so much Him, but the gub'ment that declared Him 4-f.. And, frankly I think He did more for the war effort by making movies than He would have done in a front line unit..
GunTroll
09-04-2009, 07:50
I'm well aware of Tillmans sacrifice. It is very moving. But he was no Hollyweird actor!..........So no one? Didn't think so.
Get your damn 9 and quite bashing Americas icons!
I can think of a few that have volenteered in other ways,, Bruce Willis,
Gary Sinese,Drew cary and Robert Davi come to mind,, They have done a great deal to support the troops. But, actual combat,,,No...
WWII there were plenty of them, Jimmy Stewart and Clark Gable were Fying missions over the ETO.. Granted Clark only did a few. But, He was there.. David Niven was riding a Destroyer, protecting convoys..
DD977GM2
09-04-2009, 12:32
I'm well aware of Tillmans sacrifice. It is very moving. But he was no Hollyweird actor!..........So no one? Didn't think so.
Get your damn 9 and quite bashing Americas icons!
Are you really that butt hurt that someone doesnt like or think highly of your childhood idol? Dont take it so personally. He did what he did to further his career and even in later life regretted not ever joining. So he was basically selfish when many other hollywood celebs joined.
WHAT ABOUT ELVIS?!
He didn't actually see any combat though right?
Resist the urge and stick to your original promise to yourself. Or go ahead and get all sally'd up and get a 9mm. Didn't ever see John Wayne shoot'n a 9 did you? Stay in the man club!
I seen him shoot a mac 10 in that movie McQue. And I think he liked it. Nothing wrong with a 9mm. Its cheaper to shoot sometimes and just as much fun.
GunTroll
09-04-2009, 16:56
WHAT ABOUT ELVIS?!
He didn't actually see any combat though right?
Found this for you on a answer site....
Elvis was younger than I was and I was too young to enter the war when it began in 1939 as a combatant, and I was still too young when it ended in 1945. It was mid-1952 before I was old enough to become a soldier at the youngest age one could enlist in the regular army.
Elvis was born three days before I was in January of 1935, making him not quite five when hostilities began and a mere lad in his tenth year when it concluded.
Elvis served in peacetime. December 20, 1957, he wa snotified of his draft,however, due to filming committments the Memphis Draft Board granted him a stay so he could comclude his contractual obligations.
On March 24, 1958, he became a private, regimental number, 53310761, trained at Fort Hood, Texas on September 17, 1958, an was then sent to Friedberg, Germany with the 3rd Armoured Division, where he served from October 1, 1958 until March 2, 1960.
Presley bought an extra set of fatigues for everyone in his outfit, donated his Army pay to charity, and bought TV sets for all the men on the base.
He was honourably discharged with the rank of Staff Sergeant
GunTroll
09-04-2009, 17:01
Are you really that butt hurt that someone doesnt like or think highly of your childhood idol? Dont take it so personally. He did what he did to further his career and even in later life regretted not ever joining. So he was basically selfish when many other hollywood celebs joined.
I never joke and mean everything I say. I am the driest man on earth. Nope, not one "just joking/kidding" comment has ever came out of my mouth. And no my butt doesn't hurt. Does yours?;)
So Elvis chose to serve, even when he wasn't needed. Respect to him.
DD977GM2
09-04-2009, 20:38
I never joke and mean everything I say. I am the driest man on earth. Nope, not one "just joking/kidding" comment has ever came out of my mouth. And no my butt doesn't hurt. Does yours?;)
Nope. [ROFL1] I never have sarcastic or joking comments come out of my mouth either [Beer]
And yes I will go and get something in 9mm, eventually an SP89.
Asha'man
09-06-2009, 14:36
I never joke and mean everything I say. I am the driest man on earth. Nope, not one "just joking/kidding" comment has ever came out of my mouth.
I bet you're a ton of fun to hang out with.
And yes I will go and get something in 9mm, eventually an SP89.
Where do you even get an SP89 these days?
DD977GM2
09-06-2009, 16:55
Where do you even get an SP89 these days?
I have no idea. Hopefully a private seller where I can trade for it instead of buying it outright.
GunTroll
09-10-2009, 10:05
I bet you're a ton of fun to hang out with.
Nope not really.
jackmode9316
09-10-2009, 11:33
I have sworn to myself that I will never buy anything in 9mm.
Why?
DD977GM2
09-10-2009, 11:36
Why?
A shitty round. My CCW round is either 45ACP or 40S&W.
When I was in the Persian Gulf, I saw the efffects of the 9mm on others, took many shots to subdue the situation.
jackmode9316
09-10-2009, 11:44
When I was in the Persian Gulf, I saw the efffects of the 9mm on others, took many shots to subdue the situation.
Im assuming people were using .40 or .45's in that same scenario to help you make that conclusion?
DD977GM2
09-10-2009, 12:57
Im assuming people were using .40 or .45's in that same scenario to help you make that conclusion?
No, of course not. Reg military doesnt get that kind of variaty in ammo. A good friend at the time, was or is still a SEAL and we talked about things......he is the one who gave me the go bigger and shoot less idea. Coming from him.... I will carry anything bigger then 9mm.
I think that anything over 3 rounds to centermass , which we used more on a few occasions, still didnt stop the thrteat all the way, they had movement and desire to use their weapon still, I will not put my life on the line with 9mm ever again.
You keep carrying your 9mm and all and you feel as safe as you want to. I personally dont care if you agree with me etc. I know I will put the round on target and be done with the situation. Notice I said ROUND. All the bullshit you will attempt to say will not change my mind what so ever. My neighbor, local Deputy with the Sheriffs office.....we have had the same conversation. He carries a 45 again for the same reasons I have already chosen for myself. My dad, USMC 66-72 would never use a 9mm for anything but target practice, I am sure he has the credentials to say that 9mm sucks ass. Guys in the oilfield when I was there, we had the opportunity to shoot up a car on the Western Slope. Guess which round wouldnt go through the door all the way and which one went through? You guessed it 45 and 40 went through and the 9mm didnt. Again you carry what your able to fire accuratly and I will carry a full siz 1911 or XD45 Service for my CCW rig.
I heart the 1911 crowd. Helps keep life entertaining.
9mm not completely stopping a threat means nothing unless you have had first hand experience shooting people with the larger rounds that you are hoping will take care of all situations with one round.
DD977GM2
09-10-2009, 13:13
I heart the 1911 crowd. Helps keep life entertaining.
If they made a semi auto in 44 mag that wasnt the size of a cannon, Id carry that instead.
GunTroll
09-10-2009, 13:19
If they made a semi auto in 44 mag that wasnt the size of a cannon, Id carry that instead.
Yes! Thats the answer! I'm thinking like the size of a Ruger LCP. J/K that would hurt.
If you look at coroner's reports you will find that the people the autopsy with a single round as a cause of death the highest number is that of the .45 followed by the .40
Most reports show that autopsy's with multiple gun shots as the cause of death are the 9mm followed by the .32
The reports also show that the heavier slower moving .40 and .45 smash through bones to get to the protected vitals. The 9mm and .32 have show that there is a high potential for ricochet off of the bones and away from vitals.
44 mag in a semi-auto hand gun would be awesome. The first few times. lol
We don't really need to hash out the whole caliber vs other caliber thing though do we?
Bigger is better, yes. But that doesn't mean that not bigger is worthless.
I'm having the same conversation with someone on another board about motorcycles. Apparently, if your bike gets beat by another bike, your bike is worthless and you should sell it. I never knew that.
Nope.... they both have the potential to kill. But if your primary use is to stop the bad guy then you want to do so as fast a possible. IE one shot verses 3, 5 or the clip.
GunTroll
09-10-2009, 13:44
We don't really need to hash out the whole caliber vs other caliber thing though do we?
Bigger is better, yes. But that doesn't mean that not bigger is worthless.
I'm having the same conversation with someone on another board about motorcycles. Apparently, if your bike gets beat by another bike, your bike is worthless and you should sell it. I never knew that.
Man you are so dumb if you didn't know that. Loser with a loser bike!
Man you are so dumb if you didn't know that. Loser with a loser bike!
I feel like one. I also didn't know that it is common practice to trade in your bike for the model that beat you every time you lose. I thought guns were an expensive hobby!
GunTroll
09-10-2009, 13:47
What you doing racing? Aren't you in the insurance/risk business????
I don't even have a motorcycle!
I did drag race for two seasons though.
SA Friday
09-10-2009, 14:28
Military issued 9mm for war zones are NOT self defense ammo. They are 124gr FMJ ammo traveling at around 1200fps and have little to no secondary would channel as they rarely expand. The same weight and velocity on a decent hollow point in the same situation will expand and cause much more primary and secondary wound damage. The Helsinki Accords dictates what is and is not humane ammo for use in war. We, the US Military follow the Helsinki Accords in our ammo selection and issue. Any altered or non-issued ammo used in war time is a violation of the Law of Armed Conflict, and punishable under the UCMJ. So, not a good arguement against 9mm as defense ammo. It's comparing apples and oranges.
A better arguement would be the 1904 Thompson-LaGarde ballistic tests where they concluded that there were two major factors in neutralizing a target; larget diameter bullet (at least .45 diameter) and relentless practice by the shooter to maximize accuracy. The tests were ordered after numerous complaints of their current issued handgun (a 38 caliber revolver cartridge with 9mm Luger equilivant power) being ineffectual during combat.
100+ years of bullet design has reduced the difference through expanding bullets, and additional power through stronger pistols and hotter rounds resulting in more affectual defensive rounds in smaller calibers. But, the same advancements have also made larger calibers even more affectual also.
I've been to multiple autopsies in my 11 years as a Federal Agent. A head shot is a head shot and terminal at every shooting I've worked. Ironically, all three head shot's I've been to were 9mm's and one was with an issued M9 with issed ball ammo. These were autopsies, they were terminal shots. Thorasic cavity shots are an entirely different matter. 45 ACP hollow points are just fricken brutal. Interviewed many victims shot with lesser diameter bullets. Ultimately, it's the location of the shot that counts, then the caliber selection second. Bigger is better in stopping an assailiant, but any gun is better than harsh language. Shoot what you can shoot accurately. If you have to shoot someone, shoot them till you are out of ammo or the threat is neutralized.
Handguns, but their very design, are underpowered and not meant to kill a full sized human in one shot. That's what a rifle is for. The difference is hydrostatic shock from the bullet. Handguns ultimately rely on esanguination to neutralize the target. There are very few handgun calibers that get to a level of Ke causing hydrostatic shock, and none that are easily concealed. Is that a .500 S&W under your jacket or do you have a conjoined twin under there?
I have a 14 year old step-daughter that shoot USPSA competitons with me in the summer. She shoots a Glock 17 9mm, but has shot 1911's in 45 ACP with no problems. The reason she could shoot the 45 ACP was she was trained in the correct shooting basics first. In order to do that, it meant a lighter recoiling caliber. Accepting an explosion in front of your face and not reacting is hard to learn. Compound that with excessive recoil and you have a very hard road ahead of you. Start small, teach them right, then move them to a larger caliber when they are ready.
Do NOT get a Ruger P89! You will have hell teaching a new shooter trigger control with that gun. There is no break and there is no reset. The SR9 is a much better choice over the P series pistols for someone to learn with. Even better is a S&W M&P as the trigger even at it's worst has a discernable break and reset, and the grip can be adjusted to even the smallest teen-aged hands.
Yep, I had some time on my hands today.
SA Friday
09-10-2009, 14:38
OK, is it just me or does it feel weird kind of (but not completely or I would be totally weirded out) agreeing with GunTroll?
[Help]
Nope.... they both have the potential to kill. But if your primary use is to stop the bad guy then you want to do so as fast a possible. IE one shot verses 3, 5 or the clip.
Between saying 9mm will bounce off of bone (unless thrown by hand) and your improper use of the term 'clip' I think I'm done listening to your opinion in this debate.
I have never had a problem with the 9mm. Its a bigger bullet than any of my rifle rounds and it has a lot advantages like you can carry more in a magazine. When you are just plinking with it most of the time it works out pretty well. I agree with with SA Friday that it doesn't really matter if you get shot in the head with a .45 or 9mm your going to have a bad day. So it makes sense to at least aim for the head no matter what you got. While treaties and politicians have banned what kind of bullets you can and can't use against an enemy they haven't banned where you can shoot them for effect. Shoot em in the head and save yourself.
SA Friday
09-10-2009, 15:26
I have never had a problem with the 9mm. Its a bigger bullet than any of my rifle rounds and it has a lot advantages like you can carry more in a magazine. When you are just plinking with it most of the time it works out pretty well. I agree with with SA Friday that it doesn't really matter if you get shot in the head with a .45 or 9mm your going to have a bad day. So it makes sense to at least aim for the head no matter what you got. While treaties and politicians have banned what kind of bullets you can and can't use against an enemy they haven't banned where you can shoot them for effect. Shoot em in the head and save yourself.
I would not necessarily support the philosophy of taking the head shot initially. Get lead in target, take the biggest target given. This is the chest shot if given initially. Head and pelvis are failure-to-neutralize targets, secondary targets. Training and practice will show you which caliber will allow you take these shots accurately.
Between saying 9mm will bounce off of bone (unless thrown by hand) and your improper use of the term 'clip' I think I'm done listening to your opinion in this debate.
I'm going by Coroner reports out of L.A. The busiest Coroners office in the country. This is THEIR report about autopsies in their office.
There is a "higher" potential for a 9mm or .32 to bounce of bone.
I did NOT say or did the report say that ALL 9mm ALL of the time would do so.
9mm is so weak, I play beer pong with it.
Shoot em in the head and save yourself.
Bad idea here. The neck muscles are some of the fastest twitch muscles in the human body. Center mass... but anything in the body is better than missing.
I'm going by Coroner reports out of L.A. The busiest Coroners office in the country. This is THEIR report about autopsies in their office.
There is a "higher" potential for a 9mm or .32 to bounce of bone.
I did NOT say or did the report say that ALL 9mm ALL of the time would do so.
True but your post did nothing to discredit that assumption. People reading your post and glossing over it will come away with the idea that 9mm will somehow bounce right off of bone if used for a self defense round. I tend to disagree with this statement as being more comedy than informative. I continually come across people typing on forums about how inferior the 9mm round is when used against human beings but I have yet to find one of these posters willing to stand in front of one of my Glock 9mm (17, 19 or 26 depending on the day of the weak) handguns chambered in Ranger SXT rounds to prove it will bounce off of their sternum. I call it the '9mm will bounce of of a denim jacket challenge' so just let me know if you're willing to accept the challenge. I doubt I'll get any takers this go 'round either.
There are also a LOT of pros to 9mm over .45ACP that I don't see mentioned and since it's been stated that this shouldn't be a caliber debate thread I will save it for another day but please stop spreading this foolishness about the 9mm Luger round not being able to penetrate human bone because if you use FMJ and catch just the right angle a .45 will bounce in the exact same situation and these are rare no matter the caliber. It's not common enough for anyone to volunteer to stand in front of me and take a slug from 10' away that's for sure. If you prefer the .45 and a 1911 then hey, good for you. I'm sure it will kill someone just the same so I'm not going to discredit it and to do so with a slug that is only slightly smaller is just foolish.
Bad idea here. The neck muscles are some of the fastest twitch muscles in the human body. Center mass... but anything in the body is better than missing.
Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?!? Am I reading correctly and you're now insinuating that someone can turn their head to avoid a headshot? What do the speed of twitch of the muscles of the neck have to do with anything?
I feel like I start every post like this…but so be it. I have seen a number of wounds after the action. I was on the ambulance. Pistols are fine, but I have seen a 12 gauge all but take a man’s arm off, not to mention what it can do to a head.
In terms of the coroners report I think the thing missing from that is who is shooting, I would venture to guess, based on what I have seen the 9mm's and 32's so forth are normally carried in drop guns by people with little practice in the hood. 40s especially but 45s as well are almost universally carried by people familiar with firearms and trained in their use. Basically what I am saying is, what was LA county’s report on shot placement? Thugs carry cheap small guns and generally can’t shoot.
In terms of the bullets bouncing, that's usually a good thing. One guy we had took a round to the pelvis and the round bounced up into his chest, kind of mulligan. The 22lr bounce is notorious and turns that little round into a killer, a partner of mine told me about a patient who was hit at the distal end of the humerus and it bounced back into his chest cavity, fatal.
I made the jump from a Springfield 45acp to a Glock 9mm, and it was a brutal transition for me, and took a few years to convince myself, but at the end of the day, when the zombies come, my bet, I will NEED a 30 round mag. More importantly after months of shooting both side by side and shooting in induced stress situations, I shot the Glock better, and leaned towards shot placement instead of caliber.
No hard feelings at all, I am currently shopping around for a 44 mag and I have some serious first love feelings for 1911s, but I have seen a 9mm do its job all right.
Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?!? Am I reading correctly and you're now insinuating that someone can turn their head to avoid a headshot? What do the speed of twitch of the muscles of the neck have to do with anything?
Wow.... your full of dick comments today. Yea... that's exactly what I was saying. Every one has the ability to dodge head shots, did you miss that in your "I know everything class"?
There is a reason every person who is trained is taught to aim at center mass. It's pretty simple... you hear a noise you head will turn in that direction a lot faster than the hole body.
Aloha_Shooter
09-10-2009, 17:10
Ultimately, it's the location of the shot that counts, then the caliber selection second. Bigger is better in stopping an assailiant, but any gun is better than harsh language. Shoot what you can shoot accurately. If you have to shoot someone, shoot them till you are out of ammo or the threat is neutralized.
+1
Thanks for some rational interjection ... :D
I feel like I start every post like this…but so be it. I have seen a number of wounds after the action. I was on the ambulance. Pistols are fine, but I have seen a 12 gauge all but take a man’s arm off, not to mention what it can do to a head.
In terms of the coroners report I think the thing missing from that is who is shooting, I would venture to guess, based on what I have seen the 9mm's and 32's so forth are normally carried in drop guns by people with little practice in the hood. 40s especially but 45s as well are almost universally carried by people familiar with firearms and trained in their use. Basically what I am saying is, what was LA county’s report on shot placement? Thugs carry cheap small guns and generally can’t shoot.
In terms of the bullets bouncing, that's usually a good thing. One guy we had took a round to the pelvis and the round bounced up into his chest, kind of mulligan. The 22lr bounce is notorious and turns that little round into a killer, a partner of mine told me about a patient who was hit at the distal end of the humerus and it bounced back into his chest cavity, fatal.
I made the jump from a Springfield 45acp to a Glock 9mm, and it was a brutal transition for me, and took a few years to convince myself, but at the end of the day, when the zombies come, my bet, I will NEED a 30 round mag. More importantly after months of shooting both side by side and shooting in induced stress situations, I shot the Glock better, and leaned towards shot placement instead of caliber.
No hard feelings at all, I am currently shopping around for a 44 mag and I have some serious first love feelings for 1911s, but I have seen a 9mm do its job all right.
The report did say that a lot of these are gang on gang shooting in which gang members tend to go for the smaller caliber. But the report also has stats on LE shooting in cases where the officers had used 9mm, .40 and .45
The report which is some 18 pages long states that in a lot of the cases the autopsies the most damage that they see come from the .45 followed by the .40 and the 357 which is not seen that much since the introduction of the semi-auto's
I compete in long range matches, so I'm a placement whore. Round placement goes a lot further in stopping your attacker over caliber I agree.
I carry a H&K 40 over my .45 as I feel I get the benefit of both higher capacity magazines, less recoil and still get a little bit on mass.
Aloha_Shooter
09-10-2009, 17:19
Not a chance. I could care less about Chuck. I just dont idolize some film actor that would rather put his film career over the needs of this country and then be buried with FUCKING SAND FROM IWO JIMA. Fucking bullshit. My Dad, USMC 66-72 will probably not be buried with the Sand from Iwo Jima. Yet my Father actually served in a real capacity over that douche. Along with millions of others since WWII and during WWII who will not be buried with Sand from Iwo.
I"m not in the "Chuck is God" crowd but your hate here is misplaced. Chuck Norris did his time in the Air Force for 4 years. Born in 1940, he would have been a little too young to serve in either WW II or the Korean War but he DID pull a tour in South Korea shortly after the War while things were still pretty dicey. He got out in 1962 before the Vietnam War was even a whisper so give the man some respect. Chuck is no George Clooney or Michael Moore.
The 9mm and .32 have show that there is a high potential for ricochet off of the bones and away from vitals.
IE one shot verses 3, 5 or the clip.
Every one has the ability to dodge head shots
It's really pretty hard to take anything you say seriously. Perhaps you've watched a few too many movies. I'll have an intelligent debate with anyone who is willing to not make up facts and stats and has some semblance of intelligence but you've already failed all the prerequisite qualifications.
Oh yeah, thanks for the new sig line too. This is priceless.
SA Friday
09-10-2009, 20:12
Head shots vs thorasic cavity shot are more a matter of hitting a dynamic (there's that word again) target. I don't claim that someone can dodge bullets, but Ayoob did prove in court that an average person can turn fast enough to be engaged facing the shooter and get shot in the back. Dynamic shooting situations...
Who cares about the famous people in relation to guns. They are two totally different subjects. Inject Hollywood stars and you are completely void of reality when it comes to guns.
There's nothing wrong with 9mm, and I've shot over 100k rounds of it in the last 4 years. It has it's place. Never the less, bigger is better when it comes to stopping bad guys. Every study done has shown this: the US Army learned this in 1904, the FBI rediscovered this after the Miami-Dade shoot-out disaster, and the US military is relearning what they previously learned in Iraq and Afghanistan. More importantly, the surgeon that I shoot competitions with who's done 100's of surgeries on shooting victims has said this. I think it might be true...
Some interesting reading:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thompson-LaGarde_Tests
http://brownilife.com/2009/02/09/thompson-lagarde-cadaver-tests-of-1904
http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs7.htm (pay peticular attention to Platt's wounds from a 9mm and the aftermath of them not stopping him till after he reaked havoc with a rifle.)
http://www.thegunzone.com/miami-ammo.html (an EXCELLENT article by Charles Petty on the FBI testing criteria)
http://textfiles.fisher.hu/law/nov_1.law (Write up by SA John Hall, FBI's Firearm's Training Unit Chief in 1989)
Not ONE of these studies takes real world practice and the common citizen into account. A couple controlled rounds into a specific (and single) target. I see no mention of cost. With the same money or less you can practice MUCH more. This will make the shooter more prone to getting that perfect shot and also safer when innocent people are around. 9mm also offers less recoil so that in panic situations when hammer firing you will be more likely to group tighter and quicker. End result is a more controlled burst of rounds on target and less likelihood of any strays harming innocent people nearby. It also doesn't take into account that most people that conceal for protection only carry a single handgun w/o a backup mag. So, again all things being equal, I can carry 17+1rds of 9mm in my Glock to about half that of a 1911. Most people talk about killing a 'bad guy' but what happens when it's 'bad guys'? I've got more rounds which will better allow me to stop or at least wound more bad guys. If a guy approaches you for your wallet with a group of five or six of his buddies and they have knives are you going to hope that you get perfect shots off on all five moving targets under the most intense pressure of your life? Keeping with the same scenario let's pretend for a moment you only wound them. You still think they want your wallet or are they going to use what's left of their ability to get the fuck out of dodge? If there's ANYTHING 18rds of 9mm Ranger SXT can't at least heavily weaken then I'm running the opposite way as fast as 285lbs can go anyway and I'm also pretty sure 13rds of .45 wouldn't have done much more damage either. It just burns me when people go on and on on these internet forums about how 9mm rounds are made of some magical flubber material that bounces off all but the thinnest and most fragile of skins. It's just as capable as killing in the real world in the right hands as the next handgun.
The reality of it is all handgun calibers do is poke holes. Some holes are slightly larger than others but they are still just holes and the more holes you can poke in the area of vital organs w/o endangering innocent people nearby the better you are.
Bottom line is shoot what you're comfortable with and shoot it as much as your funds and time allow. This is the best possible solution to the what caliber debate because placement trumps caliber EVERY time w/o fail.
SA Friday
09-10-2009, 22:03
Not ONE of these studies takes real world practice and the common citizen into account. A couple controlled rounds into a specific (and single) target. I see no mention of cost. With the same money or less you can practice MUCH more. This will make the shooter more prone to getting that perfect shot and also safer when innocent people are around. 9mm also offers less recoil so that in panic situations when hammer firing you will be more likely to group tighter and quicker. End result is a more controlled burst of rounds on target and less likelihood of any strays harming innocent people nearby. It also doesn't take into account that most people that conceal for protection only carry a single handgun w/o a backup mag. So, again all things being equal, I can carry 17+1rds of 9mm in my Glock to about half that of a 1911. Most people talk about killing a 'bad guy' but what happens when it's 'bad guys'? I've got more rounds which will better allow me to stop or at least wound more bad guys. If a guy approaches you for your wallet with a group of five or six of his buddies and they have knives are you going to hope that you get perfect shots off on all five moving targets under the most intense pressure of your life? Keeping with the same scenario let's pretend for a moment you only wound them. You still think they want your wallet or are they going to use what's left of their ability to get the fuck out of dodge? If there's ANYTHING 18rds of 9mm Ranger SXT can't at least heavily weaken then I'm running the opposite way as fast as 285lbs can go anyway and I'm also pretty sure 13rds of .45 wouldn't have done much more damage either. It just burns me when people go on and on on these internet forums about how 9mm rounds are made of some magical flubber material that bounces off all but the thinnest and most fragile of skins. It's just as capable as killing in the real world in the right hands as the next handgun.
The reality of it is all handgun calibers do is poke holes. Some holes are slightly larger than others but they are still just holes and the more holes you can poke in the area of vital organs w/o endangering innocent people nearby the better you are.
Bottom line is shoot what you're comfortable with and shoot it as much as your funds and time allow. This is the best possible solution to the what caliber debate because placement trumps caliber EVERY time w/o fail.
Agree completely. If you can't handle a 45 like my 90lb 14 year old step-daughter can, you should stick to the 9mm [ROFL2]. Just kidding...
I will say though, I wouldn't set my practicing standards as low or high based on what the police or military do. Both are well below my standard of low amount of practice.
Practice and lots of it is what determines accuracy, not caliber. But you are right, 9mm is cheaper ammo. I costs me aprox $30 more per 3k to reload 40 S&W and about $60 more per 3k to reload 45 ACP.
Pretty sure I haven't taken the stance that any caliber isn't capible of killing, much less the 9x19 round. Earlier someone asked for studies, background, info, whatever... I provided studies and background info showing that bigger is better. Nothing in there discounts the 9mm round as a viable defensive pistol round. They just say there is better. You gotta shoot someone (god forbid) you use what you have. Hell, for that matter, I'd be throwin spears from an atlatl if that's all I had.
Pick one and practice.
Agree completely. If you can't handle a 45 like my 90lb 14 year old step-daughter can, you should stick to the 9mm [ROFL2]. Just kidding...
I will say though, I wouldn't set my practicing standards as low or high based on what the police or military do. Both are well below my standard of low amount of practice.
Practice and lots of it is what determines accuracy, not caliber. But you are right, 9mm is cheaper ammo. I costs me aprox $30 more per 3k to reload 40 S&W and about $60 more per 3k to reload 45 ACP.
Pretty sure I haven't taken the stance that any caliber isn't capible of killing, much less the 9x19 round. Earlier someone asked for studies, background, info, whatever... I provided studies and background info showing that bigger is better. Nothing in there discounts the 9mm round as a viable defensive pistol round. They just say there is better. You gotta shoot someone (god forbid) you use what you have. Hell, for that matter, I'd be throwin spears from an atlatl if that's all I had.
Pick one and practice.
I can appreciate that you're not saying it's infective but the reason I posted is because there are actually people in the world that believe the 9mm will NOT kill a human being and the previous replies are what prompted me to post because people perpetuate that rhetoric and it drives me nuts. Normally speaking I'm not even going to say anything about 9mm v .45 because as far as I'm concerned either one will kill a drain in society just the same. We're all on the same team and if you shoot well with it then great! One more supporter of 2nd amendment rights. It's only when people (generally the '1911 crowd' as I call them) start to post 'proof' that 9mm won't kill a human that I feel the need to chime in and argue that not only will it accomplish this menial task but I also give a few bullet points why it might be better for some, but not all. I'm not trying to say it's better but only plant a seed of doubt for those who think it's incapable because that's just a load of shit and anyone who thinks otherwise is ignorant. I get tired of this debate (worse than the Chevy v Ford debate when they both get about the same job done and the only differences in reality are matter of opinion anyway) and am mad at myself for getting suckered into it once again.
It's really pretty hard to take anything you say seriously. Perhaps you've watched a few too many movies. I'll have an intelligent debate with anyone who is willing to not make up facts and stats and has some semblance of intelligence but you've already failed all the prerequisite qualifications.
Your a fucking idiot plain and simple.
Those are lines in the report from the L.A. coroners office, Not my own thoughts and opinions on the subject.
I like 9mm just fine and will continue to trust my life with it. Its better than a .22lr. Now there is a round that I don't see doing much damage on the first shot. If there is anything it has to penetrate I mean.
GunTroll
09-11-2009, 08:15
This has touched a nerve I see!
Edit....I see SA Friday got this one covered........Perhaps I missed it in these pages but the main reason Military people bitch about the 9mm and 5.56 caliber should probably be the actual bullet that is being shot. Not the diameter of the bullet. FMJ is crap! 5.56 FMJ is worthless! They should go with a more soft point rapid expansion projectile to give the cartridge more stopping power. I knew guys that smuggled some reloads into theater just because of the lethality issue of FMJ. 9mm same thing. They or anyone using it to defend and or kill enemies should look right on past anything that's FMJ or target crap.
Jer,
RRD3 has been there and done that when it comes to battle. You? Didn't think so. Try calling out someone who has done a little less next time. If someone post some info that you don't "believe" is factual ask for a link instead of calling them a liar. Might gain more respect that way! I'm thinking / painting a image of a couch commando for you. Is this accurate?
GunTroll
09-11-2009, 08:31
OK, is it just me or does it feel weird kind of (but not completely or I would be totally weirded out) agreeing with GunTroll?
[Help]
I'm storing this for some rainy day when I'm down and out.
DD977GM2
09-11-2009, 08:44
If all I had was a 9mm and strong words, Id have no issue going to the 9mm. After my experience from the service, I had poor experiences with the 9mm and swore after I got out to never own one. When I saw how much my boys liked shooing a 9mm AR or an SP89, I thought to myself , for the fun of shooting and enjoyment maybe I should get one.
As for the rest of the thread, I am guessing it got a bit out of hand, not thanks to me too. At the same time, I do enjoy a good debate. I didnt think folks here were so ferocious as ar15.com is in the 9mm vs 45 debate.
to end the thread, 45 is always going to be better then 9mm [Beer]
Your a fucking idiot plain and simple.
Those are lines in the report from the L.A. coroners office, Not my own thoughts and opinions on the subject.
No, those are your interpretations of lines of a single report from a single coronor's office. You know nothing of the extenuating circumstances. Hardly fact yet you spew it as such. I'm an idiot? Coming from you that really doesn't mean much.
jackmode9316
09-11-2009, 11:38
9mm not completely stopping a threat means nothing unless you have had first hand experience shooting people with the larger rounds that you are hoping will take care of all situations with one round.
Exactly what I was getting at. Thank you.
As for the rest of the thread, I am guessing it got a bit out of hand, not thanks to me too. At the same time, I do enjoy a good debate.
it started getting out of hand with your defensive response to my question. I didnt intend for this to turn into a "My opinion is better than yours" debate.
[Bang]
9mm JHP's make me feel just fine. Im positive than anyone who has used one them to protect themselves have no complaints.
No, those are your interpretations of lines of a single report from a single coronor's office. You know nothing of the extenuating circumstances. Hardly fact yet you spew it as such. I'm an idiot? Coming from you that really doesn't mean much.
Yea... I copied and pasted the lines out of the report it's self.
Next time I'll slow down so you can keep up. I don't think anyone thought that I was stating those as facts from myself since I stated it was out of a report from the coroner's office.
I even stated the following -
"If you look at coroner's reports you will find that the people the autopsy with a single round as a cause of death the highest number is that of the .45 followed by the .40
Most reports show that autopsy's with multiple gun shots as the cause of death are the 9mm followed by the .32
The reports also show that the heavier slower moving .40 and .45 smash through bones to get to the protected vitals. The 9mm and .32 have show that there is a high potential for ricochet off of the bones and away from vitals."
I didn't mean to hurt your feelings in repeating what the coroner's office in L.A. said their report on 9mm and .32
I really don't give a fuck what anyone uses as their choice of caliber... that's why (at least at this time) we live in the United States. You can make choices for yourself. [Beer]
jackmode9316
09-11-2009, 15:27
I wonder what the coroner reports have to say about 9mm JHP's or HP's.
GunTroll
09-11-2009, 15:40
I wonder what the coroner reports have to say about 9mm JHP's or HP's.
Allow me,
I would guess it would be like this..... " damn this guy is lucky he didn't get shot with a real caliber like 45. Hell I'm surprised we even got called out to the scene with it only being a 9mm"
Allow me,
I would guess it would be like this..... " damn this guy is lucky he didn't get shot with a real caliber like 45. Hell I'm surprised we even got called out to the scene with it only being a 9mm"
He's still dead. I'm sure the single mother wasn't complaining about bullet size or shot placement. I bet she's thinking steak would be good for dinner.
GunTroll
09-11-2009, 16:08
He's still dead. I'm sure the single mother wasn't complaining about bullet size or shot placement. I bet she's thinking steak would be good for dinner.
[ROFL1] thats good
DD977GM2
09-11-2009, 16:53
He's still dead. I'm sure the single mother wasn't complaining about bullet size or shot placement. I bet she's thinking steak would be good for dinner.
[ROFL1][ROFL2] Very well said
Jerkmode and I might go shooting this weekend. We're thinking about shooting each other with our 9mm and coming back to post how it felt. We'll let everyone know.
On a side note, I've written a proposal to have the Colorado law changed so that it is not illegal to discharge any firearm within city limits that is 9mm and smaller.
Just curious here - but I've read that the 10mm round is pretty damn hot, and can be a lot more effective than the 9mm, .40, or .45. I've never fired a 10mm, and was just curious if they're actually that potent? I'm a 1911 guy, FWIW, and doesn't somebody make a 1911 in 10MM? I've picked up a lot of 10mm brass, and it sure looks impressive.
SA Friday
09-11-2009, 19:09
Just curious here - but I've read that the 10mm round is pretty damn hot, and can be a lot more effective than the 9mm, .40, or .45. I've never fired a 10mm, and was just curious if they're actually that potent? I'm a 1911 guy, FWIW, and doesn't somebody make a 1911 in 10MM? I've picked up a lot of 10mm brass, and it sure looks impressive.
go back a page and read the stuff on the links about the FBI and Miami shoot-out. The 10mm is a really stout round, about 41 mag stout. The 40 S&W is nothing more than a shortened 10mm round and less powder.
Most of the 1911 frames in 10mm get beat up fast. The one 10mm that seems to be able to take a high round count and still go is the Glock 20.
As for stopping power, yep, it's definately gonna stop them, but you better hold on when you pull the trigger.
I wonder what the coroner reports have to say about 9mm JHP's or HP's.
There are some odd facts stated in the report about all HP rounds.
They were saying that in some cases the HP rounds did not expand any more than a non HP rounds. Matter such as clothing fill the HP cavity and prevent them from expanding in some cases.
Can you reload 10mm with the same dies as .40S&W?Like .38special/.357magnum, and .44special/.44magnum?
I bet a 10mm carbine would be fun.....
10mm and 40 S&W use the same dies.
It is a stout round, but not all that unbearable.
Grip size and gun weight make a big difference.
jackmode9316
09-14-2009, 09:31
There are some odd facts stated in the report about all HP rounds.
They were saying that in some cases the HP rounds did not expand any more than a non HP rounds. Matter such as clothing fill the HP cavity and prevent them from expanding in some cases.
Let me guess, this doesn't happen in .40 or .45?
Jerkmode and I might go shooting this weekend. We're thinking about shooting each other with our 9mm and coming back to post how it felt. We'll let everyone know.
I will let him post the details. You all might be suprised.
Let me guess, this doesn't happen in .40 or .45?
I will let him post the details. You all might be suprised.
ALL Hollow Point rounds. That is also stated in the statement. It doesn't say all 9mm. It just stated all HP rounds.
"There are some odd facts stated in the report about all HP rounds."
jackmode9316
09-14-2009, 12:19
ALL Hollow Point rounds. That is also stated in the statement. It doesn't say all 9mm. It just stated all HP rounds.
"There are some odd facts stated in the report about all HP rounds."
I was actually asking about 9mm JHP's and HP's, buts it is interesting information anyways.
This is also stated in a FBI document.
"Increased bullet mass will increase penetration. Increased velocity will increase penetration but only until the bullet begins to deform, at which point increased velocity decreases penetration. Permanent cavity can be increased by the use of expanding bullets, and/or larger diameter bullets, which have adequate penetration.
However, in no case should selection of a bullet be made where bullet expansion is necessary to achieve desired performance.(35) Handgun bullets expand in the human target only 60-70% of the time at best. Damage to the hollow point by hitting bone, glass, or other intervening obstacles can prevent expansion. Clothing fibers can wrap the nose of the bullet in a cocoon like manner and prevent expansion. Insufficient impact velocity caused by short barrels and/or longer range will prevent expansion, as will simple manufacturing variations. Expansion must never be the basis for bullet selection, but considered a bonus when, and if, it occurs. Bullet selection should be determined based on penetration first, and the unexpanded diameter of the bullet second, as that is all the shooter can reliably expect.
It is essential to bear in mind that the single most critical factor remains penetration. While penetration up to 18 inches is preferable, a handgun bullet MUST reliably penetrate 12 inches of soft body tissue at a minimum, regardless of whether it expands or not. If the bullet does not reliably penetrate to these depths, it is not an effective bullet for law enforcement use.(36)"
Hollow points not expanding is the main (and best) reason that people tend to lean towards .45. A .45 starts out at 80% of the size that a 9mm hp hopes to be. That's reasonable.
If I ever had to carry my 9mm, I'd make sure to buy the heaviest, +p hollow point I could find.
jackmode9316
09-14-2009, 14:21
22lr is where its at!!!
If I ever had to carry my 9mm, Ide probably just use strong words and throw rocks instead. Since 9mm just bounces off anyways.
I've known people to say that the only reason that they don't carry .22lr is because of the low reliability of rim fire ammo.
Nope... just have to do this and all will be ok.
http://www.gifbin.com/bin/1238512537_wantedgoodbyebullet.gif (http://www.gifbin.com/982693)
Nope... just have to do this and all will be ok.
http://www.gifbin.com/bin/1238512537_wantedgoodbyebullet.gif (http://www.gifbin.com/982693)
I will do that. If she ever gave me the chance.
jackmode9316
09-14-2009, 15:56
I can already curve bullets and make a headshots 99% of the time. Hence why I mentioned throwing rocks, to give me at least a little bit of a challenge.
[Weight]
I will do that. If she ever gave me the chance.
Agreed.
I can't see the picture. Never mind, I clicked on it.
I love that woman!!
Nope... just have to do this and all will be ok.
http://www.gifbin.com/bin/1238512537_wantedgoodbyebullet.gif (http://www.gifbin.com/982693)
jackmode9316
09-14-2009, 17:07
Did anyone else see the mythbusters on curving bullets?
Did anyone else see the mythbusters on curving bullets?
I did. [Coffee]
Did anyone else see the mythbusters on curving bullets?
I saw that they were doing it, but immediately changed the channel because I already understand what it takes to curve a bullet. I'm surprised they even did that episode honestly. Unless they used it as a way to educate the masses.
Should I have watched it?
SSChameleon
09-14-2009, 17:59
Yes, it was a good piece to educate anyone who believes what they see in a movie. It wasn't as good as the episode about shooting a lock off a door, but still worth checking out.
GunTroll
09-14-2009, 19:44
I would have to say no you didn't miss anything. Its just dumb to think one could curve a bullet. Well maybe you could curve a 9mm. Dr. Forward can I think?
jackmode9316
09-15-2009, 09:38
I curve my bullets with my mind, but only 9mm and below. .40 and .45 are just way to powerful for my telekinetic powers to work
[Wiggle].
I curve my bullets with my mind, but only 9mm and below. .40 and .45 are just way to powerful for my telekinetic powers to work
[Wiggle].
Those bullets are so slow I have time to move it with my hand.
jackmode9316
09-15-2009, 13:45
Those bullets are so slow I have time to move it with my hand.
I'll have to try that next time I shoot .45
I'll have to try that next time I shoot .45
The force is strong with you.
PogoManiac7
09-16-2009, 02:34
If the bullet had some sort of computer controlled rotational fins and if you are shooting it long distance (like 1000 yards). It technically is possible to make bullets curve. They developed technology like that to make hyper accurate artillery rounds. I don't know if it was ever cost effective. But like we all know there needs to be an active aerodynamic force on the bullet as it is traveling down range in order to curve it.
aerodynamic force? don't you mean The Force? I think I am gonna get in a lot of trouble at the range the next time I practice this.
Aloha_Shooter
09-16-2009, 21:39
You mean if you shoot due north the coriolis force isn't enough? Damn ...
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