Snowden Is anybody going to watch?

[BushMasterBoy]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlSAiI3xMh4

[cstone]

Who doesn't love a good Oliver Stone fairy tale? Most of them have put me right to sleep. [Flower]

[hatidua]

….I'm conflicted: watch an Oliver Stone movie about Snowden or an episode of some TV show detailing which Kardashian is switching genders.












After much thought, I think I'll go with the Snowden flick.

[TheGrey]

Only if I can sharpen my knives while watching it.

[Mad]

[Sawin]

Yeah probably. Once it's a buck in redbox or on Netflix...

[Zombie Steve]

Dude... gotta burn it.

[GilpinGuy]

Who doesn't love a good Oliver Stone fairy tale?

Fairy tale is right. He tends to take the "creative license" a bit far and that's being generous.

It would be cool to see an in depth, honest documentary about Snowden.

[cstone]

It would be cool to see an in depth, honest documentary about Snowden.

So would I. On Court TV.

[JohnnyDrama]

Curse you BushMasterBoy!

I was just starting to loosen the screws on my tinfoil hat regarding the whole Timothy McVeigh thing.....

[GilpinGuy]

So would I. On Court TV.

I'm certainly not a fan or anything, but it would be good to hear what REALLY happened and not just the libtard media, gov't censored version.

[Aloha_Shooter]

I'll be happy to watch the honest documentary on Snowden as evidence at his sentencing hearing for treason. I haven't liked an Oliver Stone fantasy since .... nah, can't think of one project Stone has done that I have any respect for.

[Sawin]

I'm certainly not a fan or anything, but it would be good to hear what REALLY happened and not just the libtard media, gov't censored version.

Agreed. I just figure by watching it, I can read between the lines and get a little bit of a sense...

[Jer]

I guess I'm alone in thinking it looks interesting. I'll take the few seconds required to pirate it in spirit of the topic.

[cfortune]

Dang. A lot of Snowden haters here.

Movie looks stupid IMO. It's not like Snowden's story is action packed or anything. However, I appreciate the fact that he threw his life away so America could know what the government is doing. I'm sure he's real proud of that move considering most people either don't care or want him hung.

[Jer]

Dang. A lot of Snowden haters here.

Movie looks stupid IMO. It's not like Snowden's story is action packed or anything. However, I appreciate the fact that he threw his life away so America could know what the government is doing. I'm sure he's real proud of that move considering most people either don't care or want him hung.

I find it ironic that forums like this are heavy on standing up to the government if it overreaches it's boundary (many claiming it already has) and disobeying laws that are unjust or unconstitutional but when someone does just that the same people yelling about patriotism from the highest peak they can find are the first to label him a treasonous traitor who should be paraded through the streets after being killed in some gruesome manner. I guess you have to take up arms against your brother and kill in order to be seen as someone fighting for freedom & liberty otherwise you're a wussy and a traitor who should be executed.

[cstone]

I don't know if he is guilty or not. I know that he is unwilling to stand trial and be judged by a jury of his peers, as outlined in the Constitution he at least once in his life swore an oath to uphold and defend. Rather than stand by his convictions and bear personal responsibility for what he believed to be the right thing, he fled prosecution to a government that he knows has no good will towards the nation of his birth.

I do not hate Mr. Snowden. I disagree with his choice to flee. For that I find his motivation and personal conviction to be questionable. I hope he someday alters his choice and agrees to abide by the Constitution he once pledged allegiance to. Until that day, I will reserve judgment.

I stand by my Oliver Stone "fairy tale" comment.

[Circuits]

If it's free, maybe, eventually.

[BushMasterBoy]

If I was Snowden, I would have done a little insider trading on Wall Street before I left. I would probably got some Hillary lesbian video too...

[Aloha_Shooter]

It's one thing to stand up to government overreach ala Cliven Bundy and his sons or the Tea Partiers who've fought intrusive IRS practices. It's whole other thing to use that as an excuse and cover to try to get away with rank treason. The timeline alone on his story stinks to high heaven and indicates a pre-planned plot to steal a bunch of secrets for Russia and/or China.

[Aloha_Shooter]

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2016/09/15/congressional-report-slams-nsa-leaker-edward-snowden.html


A House intelligence committee report on National Security Agency leaker Edward Snowden says he's not a whistleblower and that the vast majority of the documents he stole were military and defense secrets that had nothing to do with Americans' privacy.
The committee on Thursday released a three-page unclassified summary of its two-year investigation into the Snowden case. The committee says that contrary to Snowden's self-portrayal as a whistleblower, the report reveals that he was a "disgruntled employee who had frequent conflicts with his managers."

[Zundfolge]

Regardless of what one thinks of Snowden, there's zero chance that Oliver Stone is capable of making a movie that's honest.

As for Snowden himself, I don't know what his actual motivation was. Could be a desire to out the truth, could be the desire to embarrass the US government could be that he got paid, dunno ... I suspect he thought he'd do some minor whistle blowing, get a little famous, write a book, do some TV interviews, bang some models/groupies and then descend into obscurity with a fat bank account.

I'm glad we know about the illegal surveillance of the populace by the NSA, but because of the damage to foreign intelligence (including the death of some assets) there had to be a better way to leak just the NSA stuff without making a mess of everything else.

[MrPrena]

meh... DVD.

[CS1983]

I don't know if he is guilty or not. I know that he is unwilling to stand trial and be judged by a jury of his peers, as outlined in the Constitution he at least once in his life swore an oath to uphold and defend. Rather than stand by his convictions and bear personal responsibility for what he believed to be the right thing, he fled prosecution to a government that he knows has no good will towards the nation of his birth.

I do not hate Mr. Snowden. I disagree with his choice to flee. For that I find his motivation and personal conviction to be questionable. I hope he someday alters his choice and agrees to abide by the Constitution he once pledged allegiance to. Until that day, I will reserve judgment.

I stand by my Oliver Stone "fairy tale" comment.

Of the objective charge of X, Snowden himself admits he did X. In that sense, he is "guilty" and plainly admits it -- you don't have to draw conclusions, as he drew them for you. He simply maintains that while he did do X, it was necessary and thus absolves him of the punishment of that guilt in the intended sense of the law. Can one be guilty of exposing crimes? Of a person, perhaps... but not of an entity, and not when it is within the farcical system of "democracy" or even "constitutional republics", of which we are no longer truly capable of being accused of being in any real sense. Why? Because the people can no more make informed decisions on their petty "vote", when being acted against in a vicious and criminal manner a la The Village. There is no sin of organizational detraction, per se... at least none within the confines of moral theology. Maybe insofar as legislative invention, but who gives a crap about those things anyway?

Such a manly action as returning to "face the music" on Snowden's part would assume he actually has any peers and that the Constitution and all law flowing from it would be upheld not just in the superficial facts of his case, but in all cases everywhere. We do not see that. Only a retard would subject himself willingly to repatriation and a "trial" at this juncture. I for one have no interest in a witch trial while the judge and his friends cast spells in closed halls, soirees, and all the other oligarchical crap that occurs. But let's keep believing we live in the fairytale of the Founding Fathers I guess. At least Stone isn't asking us to believe his fairy tale as anything more than a dramatic telling of events, as any bard, poet, artist or writer would. That's more than the dimestore trash which comes from such official outlets as .gov, .mil, etc.

[spqrzilla]

Dang. A lot of Snowden haters here.

Movie looks stupid IMO. It's not like Snowden's story is action packed or anything. However, I appreciate the fact that he threw his life away so America could know what the government is doing. I'm sure he's real proud of that move considering most people either don't care or want him hung.

Uh .... No.

https://20committee.com/2015/07/19/the-painful-truth-about-snowden/

[vectorsc]

So a reply by an NSA counterintel guy says Snowden was a baddie.

Seems completely trustworthy.

When you do a duty for an organization, it accrues a duty to you. When you defend america while working for the NSA, the NSA accrues the duty of not sacrificing your service by doing evil.

Any of the operatives who died due to snowden died at the hands of the NSA who made his whistleblowing legit. In fact, even if it was a Russian op, nsa made themselves vulnerable by allowing this unconstitutional behaviour.

Translation - fuck the NSA. Couldnt have happened to a bunch of nicer folks. And i dont care who did it or why.

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[HoneyBadger]

Uh .... No.

https://20committee.com/2015/07/19/the-painful-truth-about-snowden/
That was a fascinating read.

[Calculated]

Citizen Four is a good documentary on HBO and available for rent if you don't have HBO I believe. Opened my eyes as to what transpired, recorded as it happened.

I think he did what he thought was right for the American people, and I don't believe he was a traitor. His own personal decisions about how he handled himself after are of little concern to me considering I don't believe he would've gotten a fair trial, or one at all.

Edit: No I won't be seeing the movie

[mahkcod]

Big no here.


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[DavieD55]

Negative. Wont be wasting time watching that.

There were few trying to tell America about the surveillance state long before this snowden character popped up on the scene, but were labelled conspiracy theorist nutters.

[Doc45]

Nope, probably more because it's an Oliver Stone film, though if Snowden were to receive any funds from it that'd be another reason for me (I don't know that he did/does). It's not a documentary but Stone's and Fitzgerald's views of what MAY have happened.

[Aloha_Shooter]

Citizen Four is a good documentary on HBO and available for rent if you don't have HBO I believe. Opened my eyes as to what transpired, recorded as it happened.

I think he did what he thought was right for the American people, and I don't believe he was a traitor. His own personal decisions about how he handled himself after are of little concern to me considering I don't believe he would've gotten a fair trial, or one at all.

Edit: No I won't be seeing the movie

You mean it made you see the situation the way they wanted you to see it. Editing decisions can change the portrayal of events, even ones "recorded as it happened." There is no damned way he entered in good faith, discovered something he thought was bad, went to the IG to no avail, went to his congressional rep to no avail, social engineered illicit entry into other peoples' accounts, harvested the data, and set up his escape plan all in the limited time frame he was an NSA contractor. The last three things he obviously did but I am beyond skeptical about the first four. He was a traitor on the order of (or beyond) Aldrich Ames and Christopher Boyce, pure and simple.

[DireWolf]

Not to get off track, but it may not be common knowledge that NSA recently got their asses handed to them big-time....either a bunch of people over there seriously fucked up, or there are other insiders who have chosen to surreptitiously rock the boat....

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[BushMasterBoy]

There I was on my way to Arkansas, was gonna stop off in Oklahoma City to see about a federal job...


Curse you BushMasterBoy!

I was just starting to loosen the screws on my tinfoil hat regarding the whole Timothy McVeigh thing.....

[Calculated]

You mean it made you see the situation the way they wanted you to see it. Editing decisions can change the portrayal of events, even ones "recorded as it happened." There is no damned way he entered in good faith, discovered something he thought was bad, went to the IG to no avail, went to his congressional rep to no avail, social engineered illicit entry into other peoples' accounts, harvested the data, and set up his escape plan all in the limited time frame he was an NSA contractor. The last three things he obviously did but I am beyond skeptical about the first four. He was a traitor on the order of (or beyond) Aldrich Ames and Christopher Boyce, pure and simple.

You think he was a puppet, defector, mole or traitor? He exposed the gov for lying to and spying on We the People. He didn't sell or cleary have any personal gain from these events, edited or not. You think he prefers his life in Russia? Why was he admonishing his host country recently? To keep up appearance? I doubt it.

He made a sacrifice to make the average American aware of what he thought, and I agree, was wrong. Keep in mind it was also against the law what they were and probably still are doing.

I respectfully disagree with your conclusions.

[68Charger]

Only if I can sharpen my knives while watching it.

[Mad]

FTW... only if you have the free time, and I'll make no judgement on which side you're sharpening knives for...

to be transparent, I haven't read even half of the the posts in this thread... came across Grey's response and couldn't resist responding

[spqrzilla]

You think he was a puppet, defector, mole or traitor? He exposed the gov for lying to and spying on We the People. He didn't sell or cleary have any personal gain from these events, edited or not. You think he prefers his life in Russia? Why was he admonishing his host country recently? To keep up appearance? I doubt it.

He made a sacrifice to make the average American aware of what he thought, and I agree, was wrong. Keep in mind it was also against the law what they were and probably still are doing.

I respectfully disagree with your conclusions.

Schindler outlined in great detail, in the link I provided, why he believes its quite clear that Snowden was a Russian intelligence asset. Most of what he has revealed has been foreign operations that almost everyone believes is the proper job of the NSA.

The NSA has indeed been quite thoroughly penetrated by Russian intelligence.

[Calculated]

So a Russian intelligence asset that had deep penetration into the NSA with a multitude of opportunities to find and send more pertinent information to Russia secretly chose to expose himself and ruin his information gathering capabilities to oust our gov for spying on its own citizens because it's so damaging? Sorry, that doesn't make sense to me.

[Aardvark]

Dramatized event of a traitorous poser...we deal with the repercussions from him on a daily basis so I surely will NOT be seeing that movie.

[spqrzilla]

So a Russian intelligence asset that had deep penetration into the NSA with a multitude of opportunities to find and send more pertinent information to Russia secretly chose to expose himself and ruin his information gathering capabilities to oust our gov for spying on its own citizens because it's so damaging? Sorry, that doesn't make sense to me.

Yes, for a multitude of possible reasons. He may have been believed to be blown already. Exposing him may protect the identity of a more important mole (a tactic that Soviet/Russian intelligence has used on multiple occasions in the past). And it may be believed that the damage he did to the Obama administration / US intelligence reputation was worth blowing him at the time.

[Aloha_Shooter]

Yes, for a multitude of possible reasons. He may have been believed to be blown already. Exposing him may protect the identity of a more important mole (a tactic that Soviet/Russian intelligence has used on multiple occasions in the past). And it may be believed that the damage he did to the Obama administration / US intelligence reputation was worth blowing him at the time.

Especially when people will go on defending him and causing further damage to one of the institutions that was keeping Russian and Chinese espionage in check. What doesn't make sense is why so much of what he revealed damaged our intelligence collection on terrorists and foreign agents rather than on the putative target of American citizens. What doesn't make sense is the timeline behind his claim of being a disillusioned whistleblower. What doesn't make sense is any part of his story. He collaborated with an openly anti-capitalist somewhat anti-Western "journalist" in the UK and had a foreign girlfriend ... that's a pretty familiar pattern.

[slvyj]

No

[Aloha_Shooter]

Damaged our intelligence collection on terrorists and foreign agents? You mean a mass drag net intereception of virtually all U.S. communications. Again, already known prior to Snowden. Still,

I'd rather be a constitutional republic.

I find it ironic that people here act like those programs are desirable. You're a tit hair away from being labeled by the government for intelligence collection in the future.

https://lawfareblog.com/snowden-revelations

Very little of this had anythign to do with US citizens. The line of defense being drawn for Snowden is absolute bovine fecal matter.

[Rumline]

Damaged our intelligence collection on terrorists and foreign agents? You mean a mass drag net intereception of virtually all U.S. communications. Again, already known prior to Snowden.
It may have been known by some people, but many still regarded it as tin-foil-hattery until Snowden's leaks.

IMO Snowden blew it by releasing much more than just "whistleblower" material. Some of what he revealed was good, but a lot of it was damaging to US security interests with no benefit to the American people.

[BushMasterBoy]

CIA world fact book calls the United States a "federal presidential republic". They wouldn't mislead us would they?

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/us.html

[spqrzilla]

foxtrot - that the NSA is actually conducting surveillance on US citizens does not mean that Snowden was not a Russian agent.

I've linked to John Schindler's articles. He makes detailed arguments based published facts. I've not seen anyone actually refute his points.