What to SBR: AR9 or Scorpion?

[nogaroheli]

I'm wanting to get a pistol cal SBR submitted before the new rule goes into play and looking to see what you guys in the know prefer between the CZ Scorpion and an AR 9. I already have a PSA 9 lower but am having second thoughts about the AR platform after seeing the Scorpion folded up so nice and compact. I can't put my hands physically on either of the two in an SBR'd configuration to decide before the new rule happens.

Is it worth SBR'ing a 9 in an AR platform with a non folding stock limiting how compact it can get now that there are other options like the CZ? Which of these two do you guys like better andwhy? It will also be suppressed if that matters.

Thanks!

[MarkCO]

I wrestled with the same question and while I like ARs a LOT, I can not get past how compact, accurate and light my Gen2 KelTec Sub2000 is. With 115s at 1650fps, it has me getting ready to dump my SBR desires for the .300BO and probably even get out of .300BO altogether. Passed 10K rounds on it today and it has been 100%...literally not a single bobble of any kind.

[SouthPaw]

When I was in the market for an SBR 9mm, I was debating on a AR9, MPX and Scorpion. I already had a QC10 complete Glock lower in my possession so I was leaning towards that. I started pricing out the build and it added up quick. Plus, I was not really thrilled on the idea of having to tinker around with it to get it reliable. That lead me to start looking at the MPX. I checked my LGS and the MPX was really expensive ($1,300 +/-) and mags were outrageous ($50+). Another kicker was there was no ETA on when the factory stock was going to available and the reviews were so so. That left me with the Scorpion. For the price of a Scorpion (MSRP $799), one factory folding stock ($199) and one tax stamp ($200); you are into the price of on MPX pistol or an ARP depending on how fancy you get with it. I scored a deal on my Scorpion but I am into for $1,350 and that includes, the gun, two form 1 stamps (SBR and suppressor) and the suppressor parts. Mags at $17.95 was also a no brainer. I think the best bang for your buck is in the Scorpion.

Here is my little bitch:

http://s33.postimg.org/8yb02r58f/IMG_2025.jpg (http://postimage.org/)


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http://s33.postimg.org/li1jcr41r/IMG_2042.jpg (http://postimage.org/)

[The Norseman]

LAW Tactical folding adapter will work fine with an AR9. Size will be comparable to a CZ/Sig. Can you stuff a pistol mag into a CZ or Sig? As far as I know they are platform specific. A Glock compatible lower will take your pistol mags as well as any 31 rounders you may have acquired prior to 4/13.

[mtnrider]

Are you still in the Springs? I've got several SBR 9's if you would like to handle them. A quarter circle 10 AR9 (colt mag pattern), CZ Scorpion, Zenith 5RS (mp5) and Zenith 5P.

Accuracy wise the Scorpion is last. It's not horrible but the others are just better. If you want really compact I would say the Zenith 5P with the B&T folding stock (my set up) It's going to be twice the price as the scorpion that's the only down side. Hard to beat the price on the Scorpion.

The AR9 is nice because you have aftermarket for it. Easy to upgrade triggers, handguards, sights etc.

I know of a Z5P available here in town. Not sure on the price but can find out if you were interested.

Either way can't go wrong with any of them to be honest. They are by far my favorite guns to shoot.

[Great-Kazoo]

I'm wanting to get a pistol cal SBR submitted before the new rule goes into play and looking to see what you guys in the know prefer between the CZ Scorpion and an AR 9. I already have a PSA 9 lower but am having second thoughts about the AR platform after seeing the Scorpion folded up so nice and compact. I can't put my hands physically on either of the two in an SBR'd configuration to decide before the new rule happens.

Is it worth SBR'ing a 9 in an AR platform with a non folding stock limiting how compact it can get now that there are other options like the CZ? Which of these two do you guys like better andwhy? It will also be suppressed if that matters.

Thanks!

Which 9mm lower you have? the dedicated Glock or one that uses a mag block and colt style mags? I have a dedicated Glock DDLES / QC10 lower. I decided to slap a KAK shock wave brace on it and call it good.
http://shockwavetechnologies.com/site/?page_id=1970

The extra paperwork for 41F doesn't bother me, so i'm not in a rush to SBR it. Plus, I'm doing another BYO can so tax stamp money is tied up for now.

[Monky]

Why not make a folder for the ar9. http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160610/eaa1667104f50cdda36e3ae144363434.jpghttp://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160610/154a4d479b63bb3e63c58173a0ebed74.jpg


Sent by a free-range electronic weasel, with no sense of personal space.

[nogaroheli]

Thanks for all the input you guys!

MarkCO- I hadn't considered the KelTec at all and your review actually got me to do so for a minute. It doesn't have the "specialness" that I need though. I'm glad yours is rocking out like that for you!

SouthPaw- Thanks for the pics and review of the Scorpion. Its looks are definitely growing on me and yours is a fine example- I also dig the from 1 can, it looks like my SDTA builds, how does it work on the Scorpion and other firearms? The Scorpion price is winning me over on it when I compare it to the MPX and the plug and play reliability over an AR9 is very nice.

Norseman and Monky- I hadn't seen the Law Tactical adapter before, it's cool BUT it's $240! Is the AR9 platform worth that extra to make it compact over the others?

Mtnrider- Thanks a ton for the offer to fondle your different SBRs! I'm not in the Springs for a little while longer but I appreciate the offer. I hadn't considered MP5s before this... I'm starting to look into them more now.
I also hadn't heard anything about the Scorpion's accuracy. There's a MrGunsNGear review that makes it look awful accuracy-wise. From what I was able to see maybe light (115 gn) ammo is the big cause? What did you notice it with?

GreatKazoo- I got the dedicated Glock mag billet lower. I don't mind the extra SBR stamp too much at the moment but the extra paperwork coming down the road is enough to break the deal.
I still have another form 1 can waiting to be built that'll go on it.

What kind of accuracy and reliability are you guys getting out of you AR9s?

From what I can tell I'm probably not in the MP5 price range, probably the same thing with the Sig and it's mags, so I'm still debating the Scorpion vs AR9. The Scorpions looks are growing on me along with the out of the box reliability it brings, while the AR9s vast accessories and potential accuracy are attracting me to that platform. The Scorpions accuracy and the AR9s reliability are their big detractors so far.

[Hoser]

I would SBR a regular old AR lower that way I could shoot any caliber through it that I wanted.

The LAW folding stock adaptor won't work on 9 and 22s or any other caliber that uses a non traditional bolt carrier. There is a little spud that goes in the back of the bolt to make everything work.

My 12 inch 9 upper will shoot 10 shot groups into 1-1.5 inches at 25 yards with 124gn bullets. My 5.5 upper does about the same. Both Rock River uppers/barrels.

[Monky]

It can work Hoser, you just have to get the right bolt. CQ10 has a removable mass in theirs, and I believe so does JP.

From what I've read you remove that mass and add the extension spud thing on.. and voila.

Now.. what I want to know is if i can use the jp scs with a LAW and it work.. Not sure I want to spend $150 just to find out it doesn't.


Noga - My plan is a 5.5" barrel, and a 5" 9mm can. 9" rail.. I just have to get all the pieces.. I figure 1" stick out of the end of the rail. Should be pretty sweet if I ever get her finished. I can't decide on a lot of pieces.. upper.. do I want a side charger.. I'm being indecisive about it all

[SouthPaw]

If I had unlimited funds like Monky and his Bentley... I would have an AR9. Another avenue that I am still kicking around is this: https://angstadtarms.com/udp-9/. They have been popping up for sale recently and are around $1000 +/-.

[SA Friday]

Interesting discussion. I'll weigh in on what we've seen at Bowers and personally so far for what it's worth. The price of the Scorpion Evo III is really tough to beat. With that said, they take some aftermarket parts to get to a nice shooting carbine. The good part is the parts are available and I know this guy (two actually) who works in a gun shop who owns one and knows how to do the work. They are really no harder than working on an M&P pistol. They lock open on an empty mag and have very nice controls, but the safety selectors absolutely have to be changed.

The Zenith MKE is crazy tiny, has a pretty nice trigger in it, and will cost you two Scorpions and some change. They don't lock open on an empty mag.

AR9's are so nice because they transition to the user directly from the AR platform. Some of the lowers will lock back on an empty mag. Glock and Colt mags are the two most common options. We have seen some of the Glock 18 long stick mags break their floor plates when they are released and explode their contents all over the floor. We have also seen the angle of the Glock mags cause feeding and ejecting issues too due to the angle of feed from the mag. I would really recommend a Colt mag lower if you go this route. They just seem to work better and are pretty easy to get "parts kits" for about $20 a piece. CMMG makes a pretty good one. You can get a folder to work on some AR9s, but it is a pain in the ass as already discussed.

I went the Scorpion route. It might be a little less accurate but it's still well within acceptable levels.

[WETWRKS]

I have a Sig MPX gen 1 and had good luck with it but others have had trouble with that platform.

My father has a SBRd glock mag AR. Runs like a champ and is quite nice.

Personally I would recommend you look more into the MP5 style. I have a HK94 and that thing rocks. I want one of the K style SBRd now. Will be a wicked little gun.

[The Norseman]

Here's my AR9 Thor build: KAW Valley 4.5" barrel, KAW linear comp, RRA hand guard custom cut to length, no name slick side upper, Docter RDS, fortis charging handle, NiB 9mm BCG, KAK pistol buffer tube, JP carbine length .308 spring, KAK 9mm buffer, Sig Brace, Runner Runner Guns 9mm Glock mag lower, CMMG LPK, magpul K grip. I just ran 50 flawless rounds through it for function test. Mix of 115gr and 147gr all through a standard factory G19 15rd magazine. With no effort to actually zero the RDS, I had every round in a pie plate sized area on my target at about 20 yards.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160610/c5b96def0992e12b84a109fd1f091c17.jpg
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160610/5aa0af131a8ab360fd8fe2caf5e418fd.jpg


Sent from my Id.

[ThunderSquirrel]

65817

[MarkCO]

Just one data point, but I have shot PCC in a few matches so far this year. The guys with colt mags have problems reloading and with mag reliability. The Glock mag fed PCCs don't ever miss a beat. Yes, use might change the perspective.

[mtnrider]

Just one data point, but I have shot PCC in a few matches so far this year. The guys with colt mags have problems reloading and with mag reliability. The Glock mag fed PCCs don't ever miss a beat. Yes, use might change the perspective.

I have had Zero issues with my colt mags. (I use metalform). They have functioned 100% of the time, bolt lock back every time. This is on a QC10 lower, can't speak for other brands of lowers and mags.

.

[MarkCO]

I have had Zero issues with my colt mags. (I use metalform). They have functioned 100% of the time, bolt lock back every time. This is on a QC10 lower, can't speak for other brands of lowers and mags.

Are you doing speed reloads with them? Seems that QC10 lowers sit atop the heap. :)

[Great-Kazoo]

One can debate the Colt style vs Glock all day. From a personal / hands on. I had 3 Colt style lowers. 1 factory ;) 2- with mag blocks. The colt ran fine, with factory mags. The other 2, eh hit or miss, enough they went away. If you do some research (other than our site) one will see. The majority of issues when running a 9mm AR fall on the Colt style units. This mag block, that mag, tweak here and there. Nothings perfect, even that Glock perfection B.S. It's up to you to decide which way you want to go.

Is it the norm for the colt style ones? Not at all. However there's more issues with them than the Glock units, from my own experience. YMMV

[BigBear]

Complete change of direction. I want to ask a question and I'll probably get flack for it, but I'm truly intrigued re: pistol caliber SBRS.

So, beyond the "cool" factor; what's the benefit of a SBR versus a hangun (rnd count and more inherent accuracy due to a longer barrel immediately come to mind) especially a pistol caliber if it's not a true full auto?

flame suit on... Thanks for indulging a lonely old guy.

[MarkCO]

There are rounds (1400 to 2200 fps) in 9mm that have a significant performance advantage in a 8-10" barrel over a 4" barrel. Add the enhanced accuracy (15 MOA to 3 MOA) and terminal performance (as compared to pistols and .300BO) with a LOT less concussion than the .223, there is a place for them. While a pistol is a good compromise between a knife and a rifle, a PCC is a good compromise between a handgun and a rifle.

Jim, you obviously have a lot more data, which is why I said "Just one data point." Still debating another 9mm PCC in addition to the KT, but need more info before I build one. :)

[SouthPaw]

Complete change of direction. I want to ask a question and I'll probably get flack for it, but I'm truly intrigued re: pistol caliber SBRS.

So, beyond the "cool" factor; what's the benefit of a SBR versus a hangun (rnd count and more inherent accuracy due to a longer barrel immediately come to mind) especially a pistol caliber if it's not a true full auto?

flame suit on... Thanks for indulging a lonely old guy.

For me, it is caliber consolidation, magazine capacity, overall size, price per round and the fun factor. Also being able to run one suppressor for pistol and rifle helps. I am sure some will say if you do run a Glock style SBR, magazine compatibility is also an added benefit.

[Great-Kazoo]

Complete change of direction. I want to ask a question and I'll probably get flack for it, but I'm truly intrigued re: pistol caliber SBRS.

So, beyond the "cool" factor; what's the benefit of a SBR versus a hangun (rnd count and more inherent accuracy due to a longer barrel immediately come to mind) especially a pistol caliber if it's not a true full auto?

flame suit on... Thanks for indulging a lonely old guy.

Gives the spouse a PCC to compliment her carry one. it's also something we take on road trips. hand gun & pcc using same mags, simplicity.

Plus, we can ;)

[BigBear]

Intersting. Thanks guys.

[WETWRKS]

Complete change of direction. I want to ask a question and I'll probably get flack for it, but I'm truly intrigued re: pistol caliber SBRS.

So, beyond the "cool" factor; what's the benefit of a SBR versus a hangun (rnd count and more inherent accuracy due to a longer barrel immediately come to mind) especially a pistol caliber if it's not a true full auto?

flame suit on... Thanks for indulging a lonely old guy.

In addition to the benefits you mentioned easier to control/less felt recoil.

[nogaroheli]

So I decided to go the Scorpion route. It's reliable without having to tweak or adjust stuff, it's compact and it's pretty cheap, all good things. I'm going to SBR it so I'll post some pics when it's all done and good to go. Thanks everyone for all your input, I really appreciate it.