NRA "Basic Pistol" blended learning class does not meet CHP requirements...

[O2HeN2]

Verified with El Paso County Sheriff's office while I was changing my CHP address today. Have heard Teller's bouncing them as well.

I expect the rest of the counties to follow suit, if not doing so already.

It's because of a [twisted, IMHO] reading of 18-12-202(5)(b)(II), partial extract below:

(b) ..."handgun training class" does not include any firearms safety course that allows a person to complete the entire course:

(II) In any location other than the physical location where the certified instructor offers the course.

So, keeping in mind a student can't complete the course without being at "the physical location where the instructor offers the course" -- the classroom part of the class, I think BP/BL meets the requirements.

However, I believe that [someone is] reading the above to mean that the COMPLETE course must be at "the physical location where the instructor offers the course" (can't take ANY part of it from home). Of course, following that reasoning, "back in the day" if we asked the student to read the book at home (which approximately 3% did :)), that meant that part of the class wasn't held at the physical location, either...

Though I only asked questions and didn't debate the issue, it was quite clear the person I was talking with was through with any debate with and wasn't going to accept the Basic Pistol certifications, period. Instructors (and their students) that disagreed with that decision could go pound sand, because the EPSO wasn't going to accept them, end of story.

I know at least one TC that has a call into the NRA about this change.

O2

Ps. Not that I liked the "blended learning" approach to begin with.

[Pistol Packing Preacher]

This is not good news!

[Alpha2]

Interesting...I need to talk to Sheriff Smith.

This is from Larimer Sheriff's website.

Q: What type of firearms training class do I need to take?
A: A personally attended class given by a "certified" instructor is required. Internet-based trainingwhere no direct contact with an instructor, firearms, or physical environment is insufficient. Live fire isnot required, but it is highly recommended.

It doesn't say that ALL of it has to be as specified. I'll try to get more clarification next week.

[Joe_K]

I hope the NRA geniuses that cooked up the absolute crock that is the blended BP course have to get into a gunfight with the 9 hour wonders that this craptastic "shooting" program pushes out as students, who then use this as the means to obtain a CHP/CHL/CCW.

Student - "Hi I've never actually touched a handgun before"

Instructor - "No problem let's hit the live fire range because interwebz!"

Velocitas, Opprimere,
Violentia Operandi

[Wulf202]

So you are completely against constitution carry?

[Joe_K]

So you are completely against constitution carry?
No, not at all. I believe it's your, mine, our right as an American Citizen to bear arms for the common defense, and yourself individually. However we have the current laws that require proof of training to obtain a Carry Permit. If someone is going to comply and put themselves through the process of applying and getting the necessary training, then why would the NRA make their classes, that 75% of folks use as a standard, unsafe, and with lower standards? It's borderline criminally negligent IMHO.

Velocitas, Opprimere,
Violentia Operandi

[cstone]

So what training is are the counties and state requiring for Open Carry?

Why would the state charge money and have higher standards to put a jacket on?

I personally believe it is foolish to operate tools that can easilly kill or mame people without taking some basic training. I don't believe governments should define or regulate that training. Lots of people with training still go out and do stupid and/or negligent things regardless of our elected nannies trying to protect us from ourselves. Constitutional carry and personal responsibility have proven to be the most cost effective method for regulating the use of firearms, IMO.

Be safe.

[Irving]

I've never known of anyone that took an NRA course. I'm sure a lot of people do, but I've never actually heard anyone talking about attending.

That said, it doesn't matter how great your class was if that is the only training you get.

[Circuits]

Mild funny is that "Hunter Safety" still qualifies as a CHP training class, though it is much less informative than "NRA Basic Pistol" - and neither addresses concealed-carry-specific issues as part of its core curriculum.

[O2HeN2]

Mild funny is that "Hunter Safety" still qualifies as a CHP training class...

From the El Paso CHP page: http://shr.elpasoco.com/sections/office-of-the-sheriff/concealed-handgun-permit

"Acceptable firearms training includes: NRA, proof of organized shooting competitions, DD2-14, or PCS Orders. Online training classes and hunter safety courses will not be accepted."

I'm still searching to see if that's a restriction allowed by the CRS, or if the EPSO is making up restrictions...

On edit: I can't see any legal basis for that restriction.

O2

[Wulf202]

Mild funny is that "Hunter Safety" still qualifies as a CHP training class, though it is much less informative than "NRA Basic Pistol" - and neither addresses concealed-carry-specific issues as part of its core curriculum.yup
Nra basic pistol is just that BASIC. "This is the trigger" point to trigger. "This is the barrel" point to barrel etc

It's a shit class that is dictated at 9 hours by the nra. Don't deviate. No time to discuss local laws, morality or anything but what's in the script. Hard to keep people awake.

Make them take 3-4 hours of it online. Then use that as a prerequisite to sign up for the live 4 hour class. Instructors could then stay late to discuss actual questions or local laws. You can't do that after a 9 hour day.

This is an improvment.

[J]

Many hunters safety courses don't go over hangup specific safety. Some do, and others are just general firearms and hunting safety.

Since the CRS require a hangup safety course, that is their leg to stand on claiming it isn't a compliant course.

[O2HeN2]

I think I may have found why they won't accept hunter safety. Partial 18-12-202(2):

(2) "Certified instructor" means an instructor for a firearms safety course who is certified as a firearms instructor by:

I believe hunter safety instructors are called just that, "Hunter Safety Instructors" not "Firearm Instructors".


Many hunters safety courses don't go over hangup specific safety. Some do, and others are just general firearms and hunting safety.
Since the CRS require a hangup safety course, that is their leg to stand on claiming it isn't a compliant course.

I'm assuming "hangup" was a bad auto-correct from "handgun". On that assumption, I did some more digging about a "handgun course" and found something interesting:

Extract from 18-12-202(5)(a)(I-III):

(5) (a) "Handgun training class" means:

(I) A law enforcement training firearms safety course;

(II) A firearms safety course offered by a law enforcement agency, an institution of higher education, or a public or private institution or organization or firearms training school, that is open to the general public and is taught by a certified instructor; or

(III) A firearms safety course or class that is offered and taught by a certified instructor.

Note the lack of the term "handgun" ANYWHERE in the in the definition of "Handgun training class". It always uses "firearm". So...

By strict and EXPLICIT definition in the CRS, ANY "firearms training class" is a "handgun training class"!

O2

Link to CRS 18-12 (http://www.lexisnexis.com/hottopics/colorado/?source=COLO;CODE&tocpath=1G8HF3QKZC9YJ08IV,2IKCPJHQMOM5AHP0K,3JG1IK VXA6O0OU7DJ;1UQNO57TCEU384AN2,2S0KIZO520NMQHQ17,3F 4HK0NG03MAZUMCT&shortheader=no)

[Wulf202]

Many hunters safety courses don't go over hangup specific safety. Some do, and others are just general firearms and hunting safety.

Since the CRS require a hangup safety course, that is their leg to stand on claiming it isn't a compliant course.

Even your auto correct is anti gun...

[Circuits]

From the El Paso CHP page: http://shr.elpasoco.com/sections/office-of-the-sheriff/concealed-handgun-permit

"Acceptable firearms training includes: NRA, proof of organized shooting competitions, DD2-14, or PCS Orders. Online training classes and hunter safety courses will not be accepted."

I'm still searching to see if that's a restriction allowed by the CRS, or if the EPSO is making up restrictions...

On edit: I can't see any legal basis for that restriction.

O2

They musta changed it - Hunter Safety used to be good enough. Even though they're now disallowing basic pistol, I guess I'll probably keep my trainer cert up on it, since it doesn't cost very much, and being a certified INSTRUCTOR does still meet the training certification. But I probably won't be teaching NRA BP courses anymore, if they don't qualify for CHP - that was all any of my students ever really cared about.

NRA has been emailing me to return my BP training packets, for a refund. Guess I will.

[driver]

This is from the Weld CO SO website today. I guess you'd have to call though. When they sent my renewal the other day it included a reciprocity list that was updated 12/05/2011, haha

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160724/268f2fb889a51da4f539b66d961a3168.png

[Alpha2]

El Paso may not accept it, but it's still good enough on the State page! I'd call El Paso on that "interpretation" .

"NRA has been emailing me to return my BP training packets, for a refund. Guess I will."

Funny, I've haven't gotten that email!

[Squeeze]

Regardless of EPSO's stance on this, everyone here has been on a range somewhere when some unsafe bafoon was mishandling a firearm and flagging the hell out of people on the line. Do I think training is important? You bet, but it should be quality training. Many people are quick to compare cars to being more dangerous than firearms. While I agree with that statement, look at how much training and testing you have to pass before driving one and yet idiots are handed licenses to drive - every day. The problem is, no one is trying to "ban cars". Every time some idiot mishandles a firearm and someone is hurt/killed, the anti-gun lobby is up in arms and all but demanding our 2nd Amendment rights be extinguished. Not to stray too far off topic...I don't disagree with EPSO's stance. The NRA Basic Pistol Course (as mentioned previously) is basic firearms handling and that's it. I know, I've taught it. But, I also included a handout covering laws around conceal carry and use of deadly force - and discussed them in detail. IMO, any instructor worth his salt would be wise to do the same.

How many of us here believe what percentage of CHL holders are highly competent with their carry piece? For me, I think that number is low. I would like to hope I'm wrong.