View Full Version : Judge Andrew Napolitano confirms that the ATF is stockpiling the personal info of gun owners.
The corruption does not cease.
http://insider.foxnews.com/2016/08/0...gun-owner-info (http://insider.foxnews.com/2016/08/04/judge-andrew-napolitano-report-atf-stockpiling-gun-owner-info)
Judge Andrew Napolitano appeared on "Fox and Friends" this morning to react to a bombshell report that the the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) is illegally stockpiling the personal information of gun owners.
Judge Napolitano explained that the government is supposed to gather that information for statistical purposes only, and they are mandated to destroy identifiable information such as names and addresses.
The report from the U.S. Government Accountability Office (GAO), however, found that the ATF is not adhering to that policy.
"Congress decided that since the states regulate guns - not the federal government - the federal government would never be able to keep a list of every gun owner and every gun owned by that person," Judge Napolitano said. "But they are."
He attributed this disturbing revelation to the anti-gun policies of the Obama administration: "This lawless administration has broken that law and retained that information."
He warned that this is not only illegal, it gives a future anti-gun president or administration the ability to harass gun owners and possibly even confiscate their firearms.
"It's reprehensible, it violates federal law, it violates a Supreme Court opinion, it violates our natural right to self-defense, which is protected by the Second Amendment."
But we already knew this.
Why else would you have to put the make/model/serial# etc of every gun you buy on the 4473?
Not surprising, but still pretty upsetting. I'm not seeing any huge media blaste about this either-surprise surprise.
But that means they now know about my full-auto bolt-action sniper rifle 22LR with the special hi capacity 5rd mags commemorative CNN edition. This is no good. :(
Waiting for all the guys who insisted the ATF doesn't save this stuff to post on here
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You know who's been warning us about this for years now... The Great Kazoo.
speedysst
08-04-2016, 17:30
Well, I converted all my firearms to ghost guns that only I can see. Im safe.
clodhopper
08-04-2016, 17:51
Well, I converted all my firearms to ghost guns that only I can see. Im safe.
You are employing logic in a non-logic situation. If you ever purchased in the past, you are ensconced on the concern list. I am sure they don't track, and don't care, who sells, just buys, cause you had to buy at one time to be able to sell.
milwaukeeshaker
08-04-2016, 18:47
This is not true, just ask all the posters here. I have repeatedly been chastised about this.
The corruption does not cease.
http://insider.foxnews.com/2016/08/0...gun-owner-info (http://insider.foxnews.com/2016/08/04/judge-andrew-napolitano-report-atf-stockpiling-gun-owner-info)
But we already knew this.
Why else would you have to put the make/model/serial# etc of every gun you buy on the 4473?
Bailey Guns
08-04-2016, 19:06
What guns?
What guns?
That boat accident was an illegal transfer unless you had the lake fill out a 4473.
http://66.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lg7hx3CkPV1qafrh6.jpg
GilpinGuy
08-04-2016, 20:21
The .gov knows every porn site you've ever visited. Of course they compile gun ownership info.
HoneyBadger
08-04-2016, 20:34
Do we know exactly what information they have been compiling?
Every federal 3 letter agency and every internet company (amazon, google, facebook, etc) already know who the gun owners in America are based on our online habits, travel habits, shopping habits, etc. and they already know who to pre-emptively label as a domestic terrorist next time there is some federal gun control legislation. We have truly reached Orwellian levels.
GilpinGuy
08-04-2016, 20:40
I'm fairly certain that posting here puts you on a list. Order as much ammo as you want online. Same thing.
Great-Kazoo
08-04-2016, 21:17
Waiting for all the guys who insisted the ATF doesn't save this stuff to post on here
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This is not true, just ask all the posters here. I have repeatedly been chastised about this.
No, you morons have repeatedly INSISTED THERE'S REGISTRATION.
The ATF has a shit load of my personal info. It's called a TAX STAMP.
get over it.
ALL you whiney fuckers who are OUTRAGED , sell your guns and leave the rest of us the fuck alone
You want to be outraged about something real.
Look at your ph, utility and any other bills you get. See that universal svc fee. Know what that's for?? of course you don't
it's a charge to assist "those less fortunate" The homeless get phones, housing, etc. There's millions of dollars in the state of CO collected monthly. BUT do you piss ants complain about that? of course not.
https://tse3.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.Mcd0e1955fec7a14bb1bce28b50cb1bdfH0&pid=15.1&P=0&w=234&h=176
So tiresome.
Get it out of your system. Go ahead and convince yourself that any agency of the government is efficient enough and focused enough to do anything your conspiracy racked minds can think of.
If government agencies are keeping data they shouldn't, it is because they are too incompetent to delete the information to keep the GAO from finding it. This is not willful misconduct but another case of government ineptitude.
No, you morons have repeatedly INSISTED THERE'S REGISTRATION.
The ATF has a shit load of my personal info. It's called a TAX STAMP.
get over it.
ALL you whiney fuckers who are OUTRAGED , sell your guns and leave the rest of us the fuck alone
You want to be outraged about something real.
Look at your ph, utility and any other bills you get. See that universal svc fee. Know what that's for?? of course you don't
it's a charge to assist "those less fortunate" The homeless get phones, housing, etc. There's millions of dollars in the state of CO collected monthly. BUT do you piss ants complain about that? of course not.
GO KAZOO!!!!
I called the bastards at the utilities years ago about the universal service fee - i think the girl fainted when I told I didn't want to help those worthless fucks the fee was intended for. Stupid poor people need to starve to death in the gutter instead of using the government to steal my money for their crack and dope.
No, you morons have repeatedly INSISTED THERE'S REGISTRATION.
The ATF has a shit load of my personal info. It's called a TAX STAMP.
get over it.
ALL you whiney fuckers who are OUTRAGED , sell your guns and leave the rest of us the fuck alone
You want to be outraged about something real.
Look at your ph, utility and any other bills you get. See that universal svc fee. Know what that's for?? of course you don't
it's a charge to assist "those less fortunate" The homeless get phones, housing, etc. There's millions of dollars in the state of CO collected monthly. BUT do you piss ants complain about that? of course not.
https://tse3.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.Mcd0e1955fec7a14bb1bce28b50cb1bdfH0&pid=15.1&P=0&w=234&h=176
I have never said that. Calm down sweetheart
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Great-Kazoo
08-05-2016, 07:25
I have never said that. Calm down sweetheart
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Waiting for all the guys who insisted the ATF doesn't save this stuff to post on here
Someone must have hacked your account.
Waiting for all the guys who insisted the ATF doesn't save this stuff to post on here
Someone must have hacked your account.
Registration and saving all the info are not the same thing lol
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Bailey Guns
08-05-2016, 07:31
That boat accident was an illegal transfer unless you had the lake fill out a 4473.
What boat?
Bailey Guns
08-05-2016, 07:36
Waiting for all the guys who insisted the ATF doesn't save this stuff to post on here
I don't think anyone's ever argued they don't save it. Especially anyone who knows how the gun business works. If you didn't know you would after sending in your records when you go out of business.
But compiling data on guns and those that bought them, 20 or more years ago in some cases, is a lot different than some imaginary backdoor registration scheme. If it's registration, it's the most fucked up way imaginable of doing it. Course, with our government, that almost makes sense.
ETA: Once again, they only get personal information and specific gun information from the 4473 (which could be a couple of decades old by the time they get it and get around to archiving it). They don't get gun information (specifics) from background checks...or back round checks.
Great-Kazoo
08-05-2016, 07:39
Registration and saving all the info are not the same thing lol
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But we already knew this.
Why else would you have to put the make/model/serial# etc of every gun you buy on the 4473?
That's for the FFL 's records. IF a firearm is used in a crime. The ATF can track said info to see who did what. Until then said info sits in the FFL's paperwork.
Yet you imply ( for the uninformed) this info is given during a BGC. Like that other chicken little does, repeatedly.
That info DOES NOT get said during a 4473 approval. NOR does said info go ANYWHERE, until the FFL gives up their FFL.
HoneyBadger
08-05-2016, 09:23
I don't think anyone's ever argued they don't save it. Especially anyone who knows how the gun business works. If you didn't know you would after sending in your records when you go out of business.
But compiling data on guns and those that bought them, 20 or more years ago in some cases, is a lot different than some imaginary backdoor registration scheme. If it's registration, it's the most fucked up way imaginable of doing it. Course, with our government, that almost makes sense.
ETA: Once again, they only get personal information and specific gun information from the 4473 (which could be a couple of decades old by the time they get it and get around to archiving it). They don't get gun information (specifics) from background checks...or back round checks.
Yep... It's nothing they government didn't already know based on our internet habits, travel habits, and shopping habits.
Bailey Guns
08-05-2016, 09:24
I hide my true identity from the government when I'm online.
I hide my true identity from the government when I'm online.
We know who you are Eric.
66497
We know who you are Eric.
66497
I thought he was IKEA.
Bailey Guns
08-05-2016, 14:15
And I'm not fat...I'm big boned.
Just because I purchased something, doesn't mean I own it. I've disposed of many things over the years that I purchased. Unless I am required to record the sale of something, I don't have it.
Edit: As far as the government is concerned, bury them in paperwork and data so they can't do anything with it.
milwaukeeshaker
08-05-2016, 15:35
Then WHERE does it go??? HMMM?
But we already knew this.
Why else would you have to put the make/model/serial# etc of every gun you buy on the 4473?
That's for the FFL 's records. IF a firearm is used in a crime. The ATF can track said info to see who did what. Until then said info sits in the FFL's paperwork.
Yet you imply ( for the uninformed) this info is given during a BGC. Like that other chicken little does, repeatedly.
That info DOES NOT get said during a 4473 approval. NOR does said info go ANYWHERE, until the FFL gives up their FFL.
Great-Kazoo
08-05-2016, 17:19
Then WHERE does it go??? HMMM?
It goes NOWHERE. (reread the thread) until the ffl no longer has his FFL. THEN those forms get turned in to the ATF.
You really this dense or another common sense gun owner for Hillary ?
milwaukeeshaker
08-05-2016, 18:00
Then WHAT does the ATF do with that info??? Do you really think it is destroyed? Or perhaps put in a (god forbid) database, which is defacto REGISTRATION, Capice?
It goes NOWHERE. (reread the thread) until the ffl no longer has his FFL. THEN those forms get turned in to the ATF.
You really this dense or another common sense gun owner for Hillary ?
cfortune
08-05-2016, 18:10
The .gov knows every porn site you've ever visited. Of course they compile gun ownership info.
I'm pretty loyal so I probably don't look that bad in that regard. Fingers crossed they don't keep a tally.
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Shelf life. All data has a shelf life.
Do you have any idea what the backlog is on data collected by US intelligence agencies from overseas sources in just the past six months?
Yes, the BATFE is databasing 10 to 20 year old paper copies of 4473's to build a useful database on current citizen activity. This is your idea of registration?
Have you met Jason Bourne or is possible you are Mr. Bourne? [dig]
cfortune
08-05-2016, 18:22
I like how you guys are okay with it because they're inefficient and generally suck at it.
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They should send Hillary all of the info they've collected.
In an email.
milwaukeeshaker
08-05-2016, 18:38
They voluntarily wear blinders, if they can't see it it doesn't exist. Blind trust in a Govt. that has shown many, many times it cannot be trusted. I'm done with this old argument, and the sarcasm and vitriol that is directed at me, let someone else take the reins and try to enlighten those who will not be enlightened. Life is too short.
Yes oh enlightened one. We are not worthy of your time. Please share it with others who want to hear it.
It is an old argument but you seem to keep bringing it up.
I like how you guys are okay with it because they're inefficient and generally suck at it.
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What is "it" that we seem to be OK with? That the old 4473's end up with the government years after they were filled out?
There is no federal gun registration other than for tax stamp items. In Colorado the background checks are run through CBI not the federal government.
We have a tough enough time getting a decent politician elected. Will you be holding your breath until the current inefficient background check system is done away with?
cfortune
08-05-2016, 19:01
They only end up there after an FFL closes prior to x number of years, right?
I'm more saying that yet another rule is being ignored by the Fed and folks shrug it off, again.
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We are not shrugging it off and I don't believe that the rule is being ignored so much as the agency is inept at keeping and culling the records it does have.
The GAO is one of several entities within the federal government that is charged with finding non-compliance with federal laws and regulations by other federal agencies. In this case GAO found out that BATFE was woefully inadequate in deleting data that it didn't know it had retained. If BATFE knew they had the data, they would have either deleted it as they were supposed to do OR they would have hidden it from the crack investigative staff at the GAO. Don't give the GAO much credit, they announce their audits in advance. BATFE knew they were being audited and had no clue they would be caught with the data they thought they had deleted but obviously had not. This is par for the course across the federal government. I am not happy about it, but there are 24 hours in a day and four and half days in a federal work week. I only get about 30 minutes each year to worry about things that no one will ever do anything about in my lifetime. This one doesn't even get on my scale.
Some of the truly tragic incompetence being funded by our tax dollars is almost enough to keep me up at night; but I manage to sleep a few hours here and there.
Be safe.
cfortune
08-05-2016, 23:16
We are not shrugging it off and I don't believe that the rule is being ignored so much as the agency is inept at keeping and culling the records it does have.
The GAO is one of several entities within the federal government that is charged with finding non-compliance with federal laws and regulations by other federal agencies. In this case GAO found out that BATFE was woefully inadequate in deleting data that it didn't know it had retained. If BATFE knew they had the data, they would have either deleted it as they were supposed to do OR they would have hidden it from the crack investigative staff at the GAO. Don't give the GAO much credi
How is a rule not being ignored when PII is supposed to scrubbed, and not being so. Saying someone is too stupid to scrub it doesn't mean it's okay not too scrub it. Jesus. Give them the common core pass?
I don't know what a rule/obligation/law is to you, but to me, it's something that should be looked out for and not ignored.
cfortune
08-05-2016, 23:29
Deleted.
How is a rule not being ignored when PII is supposed to scrubbed, and not being so. Saying someone is too stupid to scrub it doesn't mean it's okay not too scrub it. Jesus. Give them the common core pass?
I don't know what a rule/obligation/law is to you, but to me, it's something that should be looked out for and not ignored.
Ignoring something is willfully not doing what you know you are supposed to do. It is a choice not just ignorance. Gigging someone on an audit/inspection happens on a regular basis. I am certain that the GAO has already provided a time frame for a re-audit where they will go back to see if BATFE has complied with the recommendations from their first audit findings. I will not be totally surprised if BATFE fails to correct all of the findings from the first audit. That also would not be a willful attempt at circumventing the law/regulations, but further evidence of how absolutely incompetent and overwhelmed the agency is at following their own regulations and federal legislation. The worst they can expect is a strongly worded rebuke from the Congressional oversight committee and possible funding reductions, but those would be drastic steps and not likely to happen.
You might be surprised what the law means to me.
I live in this world, not the world I would like it to be.
cfortune
08-06-2016, 00:13
PCI compliance, etc, shouldn't apply to the government, right? Doesn't have to be this way, man. Europe has "Safe Harbor", we have "okay to store your info if it has a 10-20 year backlog". Thank freedom.
Of course it applies. What is the remedy? Do you believe someone will go to jail over this? Who is being naive now?
The questions are why does it happen and how does it get fixed?
Hint: It doesn't happen because there is an evil sorcerer in a tower conspiring to put all gun owners into a federal database.
cfortune
08-06-2016, 00:30
Of course it applies. What is the remedy? Do you believe someone will go to jail over this? Who is being naive now?
The questions are why does it happen and how does it get fixed?
Hint: It doesn't happen because there is an evil sorcerer in a tower conspiring to put all gun owners into a federal database.
Someone should fuckin go to jail over it. I can't point a finger but I bet someone can (hell, can probably throw a pile of pencils and not hit an innocent being). I don't know how we can ever expect change when the response is "it's tough and is old as rocks". That's all I'm gonna say. We've chatted. Good'night folks.
Edit...
The solution is, you're given, data, that you're expected to treat in a certain way, and if you don't, you're going to be fucking "butt raped by our legal system and potentially put to death". Why is this so hard to grasp? People are given opportunities like this everyday and the ones who take advantage, we call criminals. Excect when they work for an ABC?
May I suggest Hillary Rodham Clinton for jail?
Wishful thinking [Coffee]
cfortune
08-06-2016, 00:41
Thumbsup.jpg
Marriage, Drivers, Hunting, Pilots, or Concealed Carry License?
Gone to Court?
Social Security Card?
Loan from a Financial Institution?
Paid Taxes?
Submitted to a BGC?
Served in the Military?
Traveled overseas?
Worked for a Corporation?
Held public office?
Purchased and used a cellular telephone?
Surfed the Internet?
We're all on some type of list.
Don't like it? Than change it. Meanwhile I will be here worrying less and being as prepared as I can for what may come.
Velocitas, Opprimere,
Violentia Operandi
Great-Kazoo
08-06-2016, 07:28
Marriage, Drivers, Hunting, Pilots, or Concealed Carry License?
Gone to Court?
Social Security Card?
Loan from a Financial Institution?
Paid Taxes?
Submitted to a BGC?
Served in the Military?
Traveled overseas?
Worked for a Corporation?
Held public office?
Purchased and used a cellular telephone?
Surfed the Internet?
We're all on some type of list.
Don't like it? Than change it. Meanwhile I will be here worrying less and being as prepared as I can for what may come.
Velocitas, Opprimere,
Violentia Operandi
Unfortunately, these every day happenings people overlook. OR not aware exactly how many people know who you are & what you do, on a daily basis.
Gun Owners are the worse. People tell me they don't want a CCW because "They will know they have guns" I then ask, do you have a Hunter Safety card? Yes i do [facepalm]
Make a call to any CSR 800-888-877 number. Chances are they will say, How are you today Mr. kazoo. Your info is tracked 24/7, ESPECIALLY on your cell phone, gas station & store use.
The only up side is we're not like England where security cameras are every where, Yet.
It's one more reason we need to keep HRC out of office.
Bailey Guns
08-06-2016, 07:52
Did any of you actually read this "bombshell" report? I just did. Let's just say, after reading it and getting a clearer picture of the "reprehensible and lawless" violations, I have bigger things to worry about. Somebody likes headlines and sensationalism.
I'm not condoning people not properly doing their jobs and I am NOT a fan of the ATF by any stretch of the imagination. But I'm far more concerned about real, intentional abuses such as those that occur at the IRS or by TSA - which are about a million times more likely to actually adversely affect your life than the record keeping violations by the ATF. Not to mention the report also states most, if not all, of the procedural issues for collecting data were addressed, corrected and improperly stored/collected data was deleted.
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