View Full Version : FBI Pistol Selection Results and Insider Info.
SA Friday
08-05-2016, 10:10
So everyone probably has heard that the FBI selected the Glock 19 for their new pistol. There has been a lot of speculation after the announcement if Glock was going to be making a new version based on the FBI specs, no finger grooves in particular. Well, after talking to a few insiders it sounds like not only did Glock agree to make a special version of the Glock 19, the two modifications were no finger grooves and a lighter and cleaner trigger from the standard Gen 4. The FBI was all ready to give the contract to Sig for the P320 and Glock swooped in and said they would make accommodations on a new pistol to get the contract. There is additional rumors that the military has also been in the mix of this and wants the new version too, especially SOCOM. So, we will see how it shakes out, but what I'm hearing is there will be another version of Glocks in the future. I suspect if this all is true and comes to fruition the civilian market won't see them until well after any LE or military contracts are fulfilled.
Why the love for no finger grooves? Issue with gloves? I'm biased i suppose since i like them and usually prefer like hogue gross
hurley842002
08-05-2016, 10:29
Why the love for no finger grooves? Issue with gloves? I'm biased i suppose since i like them and usually prefer like hogue gross
They aren't one size fits all for one, they fit me, but they don't fit all.
Bailey Guns
08-05-2016, 10:46
^^ Exactly. I hate them. I won't buy a Gen 3 or 4 for that very reason. No finger grooves on a new generation Glock? Sign me up.
thvigil11
08-05-2016, 11:21
On every glock I own, I have taken down the finger grooves. I must have weird shaped fingers or something, but I cant stand finger grooves at all. Just like I always took down my A2 grips on my AR's till I decided that the MOE was the best fitting grip to my hands. I am interested to see if this model change will be available to civvies. Although I always have blue label available to me.
Hated a2 grips. I dont mind straight grips but like them rubber or the softer magpul polymer than the concrete firm texture of old stuff.
Figured grooves so big they would fit anyone mostly but that makes sense. Especially some of you guys eith big bear paws.
Either way always love more options.
68Charger
08-05-2016, 13:49
I thought they were perfection- why would they need changing?
(where's the picture of the trolling motor?)
KestrelBike
08-05-2016, 13:57
Sig must have been so, so pissed.
If this happens, Glock will sell a civ FBI/.mil model like crazy.
For me the finger grooves are tolerable on the 17/22 but don’t fit at all on the 19/23.
Interesting, the finger grooves wouldn't be my first complaint with a Glock. My top two complaints would be the grip angle and the trigger that feels like my toy disc gun I had as a child.
Zundfolge
08-05-2016, 15:03
I would love to see Glock make this new "Gen 5" gun with both replaceable front and back straps so you have the option of no finger groves, only one finger grove and standard 3 finger groves.
I hate finger groves. I'd gladly part with one of my gen 3 or 4 19's if I came across a super clean gen 2.
the trigger that feels like my toy disc gun I had as a child.
That's it. I never could put my finger on why the trigger pull seemed so familiar.
I miss those disc guns. When I'd lose all of the discs I'd load it with pennys. They didn't travel very far but we're much more satisfying to shoot my little brother with.
I'd need a G19 with a beaver tail. Can't stand my G19.
All this talk about the trigger & finger grooves and I'm over here like, "Yeah! Fuck you Sig Sauer! Suck it! Go Team Glock! Take that contract like a boss!" [Awesom]
KevDen2005
08-06-2016, 01:42
I heard Glock was making a 1911 version pistol for the FBI...with lots of finger grooves....
[Coffee]
Look for a lot more negligent discharges again which they will blame on finger grooves!
Most of these will never become public knowledge unless they result in injuries or occur in public places.
buffalobo
08-06-2016, 08:54
All this talk about the trigger & finger grooves and I'm over here like, "Yeah! Fuck you Sig Sauer! Suck it! Go Team Glock! Take that contract like a boss!" [Awesom]
Haha, +1
Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
hurley842002
08-06-2016, 08:58
Look for a lot more negligent discharges again which they will blame on finger grooves!
Most of these will never become public knowledge unless they result in injuries or occur in public places.
riiiiiiiggghhhttt....
I'd need a G19 with a beaver tail. Can't stand my G19.
Want to sell it to me?
68Charger
08-06-2016, 14:54
I'd need a G19 with a beaver tail. Can't stand my G19.
I can't stand your G19, either (even though I've never seen it)
For me the finger grooves are tolerable on the 17/22 but don’t fit at all on the 19/23. Same here. I leave the 17s alone, the midsize one'a get the fingers smoothed off.
I have been trying to find a picture of one of the new "FBI Glocks"
Velocitas, Opprimere,
Violentia Operandi
I have been trying to find a picture of one of the new "FBI Glocks"
Velocitas, Opprimere,
Violentia Operandi
Try searching for "Glock 19 gen 2". I'm guessing it will look a lot like that.
Try searching for "Glock 19 gen 2". I'm guessing it will look a lot like that.
But it will be real special, never ever get fired except at the range, and even that will be pretty rare. It will show up at any shooting after everything has been handled and will take credit for shooting any bad guys while thanking all of the other guns for their assistance. It won't actually fire ammunition but can fire press releases at a high cyclic rate. Eventually the FBI gun will investigate all of the other guns and determine that those guns are not being handled correctly and will replace them all with FBI standard guns that will follow all approved FBI protocols...in other words they will be useless.
[Flower]
Will this new gun be able to tell when someone's lying?
I'd bet that Sig P320 could.
Will this new gun be able to tell when someone's lying?
I'd bet that Sig P320 could.
I dunno, but an Army issue m4 was able to teach English to Iraqis quicker than Rosetta Stone. Amazing how many suddenly spoke it quite well with a barrel stuffed in their face. These neat and educational uses for firearms is something we should probably use more to make our point known.
I dunno, but an Army issue m4 was able to teach English to Iraqis quicker than Rosetta Stone. Amazing how many suddenly spoke it quite well with a barrel stuffed in their face. These neat and educational uses for firearms is something we should probably use more to make our point known.
Sounds like a simpler version of the water powered speech inducer.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5vESKdr8uqE
spqrzilla
08-08-2016, 13:07
But it will be real special, never ever get fired except at the range, and even that will be pretty rare. It will show up at any shooting after everything has been handled and will take credit for shooting any bad guys while thanking all of the other guns for their assistance. It won't actually fire ammunition but can fire press releases at a high cyclic rate. Eventually the FBI gun will investigate all of the other guns and determine that those guns are not being handled correctly and will replace them all with FBI standard guns that will follow all approved FBI protocols...in other words they will be useless.
[Flower]
Soooo much this.
Zundfolge
08-08-2016, 14:10
Interesting, the finger grooves wouldn't be my first complaint with a Glock.
The requirement that there be no finger grooves was written in there specifically to keep the Glock from being the choice.
If you read the RFQ it was clearly written to get the SIG P320 without actually putting the words "We want the SIG P320" in there. Glock got a hold of the specs and undercut SIG masterfully.
Anyway, it'll probably look something like this:
66543
spqrzilla
08-08-2016, 14:46
There must be some real stompy feet at FBI given that they wrote the RFQ to exclude Glock.
Aloha_Shooter
08-08-2016, 16:20
Should be a lesson in writing requirements for contracts but also a lesson for gun controllers: don't base critical decisions on things that are purely cosmetic. If you have an issue with how product B works, then write the requirements to address how product B works (or doesn't) instead of focusing on an easily changed cosmetic feature. They probably should have looked at how the Air Force handled the KC-45 process -- it was as political as any acquisition program could get but I'm told the end process actually resulted in goodness (i.e., the Air Force got the aircraft it needed at a decent price and even got some performance enhancements due to the competitive process).
Bailey Guns
08-08-2016, 17:08
FBI adopts 10MM. FBI agents can't handle 10MM so the .40SW is developed. FBI adopts 9MM. Fortunately, the .380ACP already exists so development of the next FBI caliber is taken care of. But they'll probably want to call it something cool. And the Glock 42 doesn't have finger grooves?
So you're saying a .22LR revolver is in store for future generations of FBI? It's dangerous up to 1.5 miles, ya know.
Bailey Guns
08-08-2016, 17:26
They'll have to start with a .22WMR first.
They'll have to start with a .22WMR first.
Or 22TCM
There must be some real stompy feet at FBI given that they wrote the RFQ to exclude Glock.
I think they wanted Glock from the start. They used Sig to force Glock to make changes they have wanted fir years.
Mike
SA Friday
08-09-2016, 13:00
I have been trying to find a picture of one of the new "FBI Glocks"
Velocitas, Opprimere,
Violentia Operandi
Haven't been made yet..... The contract only got let a month or so ago.
Zundfolge
08-09-2016, 13:21
Haven't been made yet..... The contract only got let a month or so ago.
Yeah, i bet that the most that Glock has done is Photoshop a Gen 4 gun like I did earlier in this thread.
Limited GM
08-09-2016, 15:38
Someone from Glock will be staying here as a guest Wednesday. I'll attempt to waterboard him for info and get back to you. (Ok, maybe just ask)
Someone from Glock will be staying here as a guest Wednesday. I'll attempt to waterboard him for info and get back to you. (Ok, maybe just ask)
Whiskyboard?
He drinks a whiskey drink
He drinks a vodka drink
He drinks a lager drink
He drinks a cider drink
SA Friday
08-09-2016, 17:46
Someone from Glock will be staying here as a guest Wednesday. I'll attempt to waterboard him for info and get back to you. (Ok, maybe just ask)
My info is from the other side of the equation. It will be interesting to hear what is said.
10 degree downward angle. It helps to tie down the knees as well as the hands. Leave the head unsecured, and wrap it completely with the towel holding the head to the board. Egyptian cotton doubled up seems to work fairly well. Cold water.
Limited GM
08-09-2016, 18:16
Whiskyboard?
My info is from the other side of the equation. It will be interesting to hear what is said.
10 degree downward angle. It helps to tie down the knees as well as the hands. Leave the head unsecured, and wrap it completely with the towel holding the head to the board. Egyptian cotton doubled up seems to work fairly well. Cold water.
Hes a southern gent. I was thinking 'shine or Jäger. If that doesn't work, there's Peach Crumble.
SA Friday
08-10-2016, 14:57
Hes a southern gent. I was thinking 'shine or Jäger. If that doesn't work, there's Peach Crumble.
whatever gets him there. [Beer]
whatever gets him there. [Beer]
Rusty trombone?
BushMasterBoy
08-10-2016, 15:17
Date from craigslist...
Funny I just saw this thread, I heard some rumblings of a Gen 5 too.
Helping you continue improv [Coffee]
He drinks a whiskey drink
He drinks a vodka drink
He drinks a lager drink
He drinks a cider drink
He sings the songs that remind him
Of the good times
He sings the songs that remind him
Of the better times:
'Oh Danny Boy
Danny Boy
Danny Boy...'
I get knocked down
But I get up again
You're never going to keep me down
Pissing the night away
Pissing the night away
Honey Badger282.8
08-10-2016, 22:13
Lol, Chumbawumba
Limited GM
08-11-2016, 22:16
Well he told me the scoop, then swore me to secrecy. Face palm.
68Charger
08-11-2016, 22:34
So, who's going to go waterboard GM?
[Coffee]
Ain't gonna be me, don't care that much about dem G-locks
Well he told me the scoop, then swore me to secrecy. Face palm.
What a tease.
HoneyBadger
08-12-2016, 03:00
I bet it won't be approved for sale in CA. :(
Some details here:
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?21787-Details-out-on-Glock-17M
KestrelBike
08-13-2016, 13:56
I bet it won't be approved for sale in CA. :(
Yeah, if Glock didn't bother for the gen4 by now, seriously doesn't look like they'd do it for a gen 5 for the same reasons.
Some details here:
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?21787-Details-out-on-Glock-17M
Ugh, the possibility of non-compatible magazines is seriously annoying.
Yeah, if Glock didn't bother for the gen4 by now, seriously doesn't look like they'd do it for a gen 5 for the same reasons.
Ugh, the possibility of non-compatible magazines is seriously annoying.
My understanding is the only mags change is the floor plate.
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160816/138b687a83a35b602e93ad1295f16bfb.jpg
Velocitas, Opprimere,
Violentia Operandi
Eh. Still pretty much looks like a Glock.
Wonder why they eliminated the pin for the lock block?
Best guess so far is due to the redesign of that area for the ambi slide lock lever. And that Glock 42 and 43's don't have them either.
http://soldiersystems.net/2016/08/16/info-on-the-new-glock-g17m/
Velocitas, Opprimere,
Violentia Operandi
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160816/3d555b1ebd34f5df017c7262812df3eb.jpg
Velocitas, Opprimere,
Violentia Operandi
I don't like the front end. I like that the front of the slide seems to have the bevel like the subcompacts and always thought that would be a nice touch on the 17 and 19. But the front of the frame is still squared off and doesn't match up with the slide. If that makes sense.
hurley842002
08-16-2016, 12:52
I'll never like the Gen4 back straps, they seem so sloppy and "afterthought'ish".
Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
KestrelBike
08-16-2016, 12:52
Yeah I see what you mean about the front end. For the bottom front of the grip, I'm kinda digging that cut-out. Then again, I'm wondering how annoying that'd be for the last-digit on a G19.
That ambi-slide release is showing a lot of wear in that pic already.
thvigil11
08-16-2016, 13:05
I'm digging it. Might be time for a gen5 mos 17. I hope for too much right there. The front doesn't bother me much. As for the gen 4 backstraps, I've left those thing off in the parts bin where they belong. As for the half moon cut on the lower grip. Older 17's had that, but it was a feature left off the older 19's. Positive mag extraction, is the purpose, i believe.
Bailey Guns
08-16-2016, 13:46
Oh, come on. The FBiGlock could look like an ugly Hi Point and we'd all want one.
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160816/597bf016925adc4b2adf0c28ae9f5800.jpghttp://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160816/1a5c77e1a2481d0ce0bdc1d1abdfc3d5.jpghttp://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160816/9cc9c613e7d10fbd5a688fc043276a7a.jpg
Velocitas, Opprimere,
Violentia Operandi
I wonder if the trigger is thinner because of the right side slide stop or if the groove in the frame is wider?
I'm also slightly disappointed the government didn't specify mil-spec rail on the dust cover.
Appears the little "bump" on the trigger bar isn't present. More of a pre-gen4 trigger bar.
I'm still curious about what's different about the rifling. I figured it was going to be something silly like instead of a right hand twist the spec was for a left hand twist. Lol.
USMC88-93
08-16-2016, 15:39
I'm still curious about what's different about the rifling. I figured it was going to be something silly like instead of a right hand twist the spec was for a left hand twist. Lol.
Standard rifling vs polygonal allows for better forensic investigations at shootings as it allows the bullet remains to be more easily matched to the weapon google "Glock Miami barrel"
Standard rifling vs polygonal allows for better forensic investigations at shootings as it allows the bullet remains to be more easily matched to the weapon google "Glock Miami barrel"
Is that the rumor about the rifling? That it's more of a standard rifling?
Is that the rumor about the rifling? That it's more of a standard rifling?
It's standard not polygonal
From military arms channel
I had a chance to shoot the new Glock 17M, which is the new FBI 9mm Glock that many speculate will become the Generation 5 guns. Here are some of the features of the 17M that I observed today.
The new gun has a button rifled barrel with traditional lands and grooves. It does not use the polygonal rifling of its predecessors.
It uses a longer recoil spring and the locking lug has been set back on the barrel a bit to facilitate this. It uses what looks to be a similar arrangement as the Gen 4 guns in terms of the spring design.
It has a trigger that's very similar to the G42/43. This means it has a slightly improved trigger pull and it's definitely noticeable when I fired it.
The magazine well is beveled inside. This is not visible externally though.
It has a two pin design similar to older generation guns.
It features an new ambidextrous slide stop however the magazine release is only accessible from one side of the gun at a time.
No finger grooves on this one.
While the magazines for the 17M are slightly different than a Glock 17 Gen 1-4 mag, the older mags will still lock into and work properly in the 17M. I fired the gun with a Gen 1 magazine. The finish is claimed to be more durable than previous generations of guns. It's not uncommon for Glock to change up the finishes from generation to generation.
I will have a video to release on the channel in a few days. Meanwhile, here are some pics for you guys to look over.
Oh, come on. The FBiGlock could look like an ugly Hi Point and we'd all want one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtfoZMJK5d0
68Charger
08-17-2016, 07:26
Oh, come on. The FBiGlock could look like an ugly Hi Point and we'd all want one.
It is almost as ugly as a Hi Point- and I don't want one... I keep coming to this thread trying to figure out what the draw is (pun intended)
It's interesting how the contract transpired- but that's about where my interest ends... is this just a Glock fanboi thing, an FBI fascination, or a combination of both?
I'm genuinely curious... I've never really understood the rabid fanbase that Glock enjoys, and to be honest, it's one of the things that turns me off of them... I never was much for following the crowd.
It is almost as ugly as a Hi Point- and I don't want one... I keep coming to this thread trying to figure out what the draw is (pun intended)
It's interesting how the contract transpired- but that's about where my interest ends... is this just a Glock fanboi thing, an FBI fascination, or a combination of both?
I'm genuinely curious... I've never really understood the rabid fanbase that Glock enjoys, and to be honest, it's one of the things that turns me off of them... I never was much for following the crowd.
Simple reason people appreciate the Glock platform? They work. They are the world's golden standard for handgun reliability.
There are of course the rabid followers who will like it because Lord Gaston told them to.
Velocitas, Opprimere,
Violentia Operandi
68Charger
08-17-2016, 08:22
Simple reason people appreciate the Glock platform? They work. They are the world's golden standard for handgun reliability.
There are of course the rabid followers who will like it because Lord Gaston told them to.
Velocitas, Opprimere,
Violentia Operandi
Doesn't address the huge interest in the FBI version- is the new button-rifled barrel also going to be fully supported? That hasn't been much of a problem with 9mm because of the design of the brass being thicker at the base... but I like my brass unhappy (no Glock smilies)
(loaded question, I'm sure the FBI doesn't care if their brass is scrap- since they don't reload)
Some assert this is the new G17M, but not necessarily the FBI version.
On topic:
The change to standard rifling will be nice and I wonder if it was driven by all the new poly coated bullets being used. If I remember correctly polygonal rifling and lead bullets are a no no.
Off topic:
I did not buy a glock for over 10 years after I started shooting. I was never into the hype and besides Horace and Daniel are the true deciples and not Gaston.
[emoji477]
But the Glock has a few things going for it that sold me over. Parts are available, and magazines are cheap. Can't say either of those about my SW guns. (Maybe the M&P line fixed this problem)
Polygonal rifling and lead bullets don't play nice all the time. But the polymer coated bullets don't appear to have issues in the polygonally rifled barrels.
If the 17M hits the USPSA Production approved list, I may have to try a Glock again. :)
what are you competing with now?
I dont currently own a glock. The funny thing is...it was a glock fanboi (Anthony from Greeley) who made me get rid of mine. I didnt know about poly rifling and lead bullets. Once he told me I ditched them. I couldnt see having to buy a new barrel to shoot lead. I am shooting coated lead bullets now.
I still have some G22s, but I use the M&P 9mmPro for competition now. I might shoot a few matches with the CZP09 once I get a holster for it.
hollohas
08-17-2016, 10:33
I think they wanted Glock from the start. They used Sig to force Glock to make changes they have wanted fir years.
Mike
^This. They wouldn't have handed it back to Glock so quickly otherwise. If they wanted Sig, they would have picked Sig, finger groove-less Glock or not.
I'm genuinely curious... I've never really understood the rabid fanbase that Glock enjoys, and to be honest, it's one of the things that turns me off of them... I never was much for following the crowd.
It's not much different than the 1911 crowd.
68Charger
08-17-2016, 12:53
It's not much different than the 1911 crowd.
At least there are 1000s of variants on the 1911 platform... when I see discussions about how one model Glock looks, I think of the Matrix scene "you all look the same to me"
66682
I never got the Glock fanboy thing either. I understand they're robust and reliable guns (for the most part), that 70% (estimated) of LE uses, but I prefer Sigs (see my title). Not sure why the FBI didn't go the same route the Secret Service did, who have used the Sig P229 for years. With how many government orgs use Sig (to include DHS, Air Marshals, Army CID, DSS, NCIS, SEALs, et al) it's somewhat surprising the Feebs went a different direction. Being an owner of both, I prefer Sig over Glock. The grips, trigger, and durability are mostly what sold me, and the fact that my P226 with 20-round magazines hasn't ever let me down through several qualifications, competition, and 1000's of rounds, I don't think I could ever go with another brand. That said, I don't hate Glock, but I have seen some pretty catastrophic failures from their guns- a coworker had his slide rails break and rendered the gun useless, he quickly switched to a P220.
hollohas
08-17-2016, 13:15
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160816/3d555b1ebd34f5df017c7262812df3eb.jpg
That seriously looks like $hit. Some of the modifications look like half assed after-thoughts.
The back grip insert/beavertail is not integrated at all. Looks like they simply took a standard frame, made some relief cuts, drilled a hole and wham, bam, they had interchangeable grip panels. Almost like they glued a poorly deisgned aftermarket panel to the grip.
And the aforementioned rounded front end not matching the profile of the front of the frame is just plain sloppy. Looks like the guy who engineered the slide didn't bother to communicate with the guy who was working on the frame. From some angles it looks more like a chamfer than a rounded edge.
Hopefully they refine it before production goes live.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk
Limited GM
08-17-2016, 17:44
What a tease.
Well it sure didn't take long to get out.
in discussing the finish...it's suppose to be better than anything currently used. I was saddened when they quit using the early tennifer finish and always wondered why? I was told it was EPA related with the disposal of arsenic.
With how many government orgs use Sig (to include DHS, Air Marshals, Army CID, DSS, NCIS, SEALs, et al) it's somewhat surprising the Feebs went a different direction.
You're seriously surprised a government entity went with the lowest bidder?
I honestly have no idea what the per unit cost is going to be on the Glock but I'd guess they are saving a metric butt load of money buying the Glock instead of the Sig.
Fan boys annoy me to no end, but I recently got a g19 with a few mods and must say that with finger grooves gone and a good stifling job it feels better and more balanced in my hand that any other pistol I've used. I always used to be a compact 1911 guy but the g19 is way lighter and more balanced in my opinion.
I think pistols more than any other weapon are very user preferred and really it's almost all opinion. Pretty much every platform has its ups and downs and it depends on hand size, body size, etc.
You're seriously surprised a government entity went with the lowest bidder?
I honestly have no idea what the per unit cost is going to be on the Glock but I'd guess they are saving a metric butt load of money buying the Glock instead of the Sig.
Very true. Remember the rules of combat: Your equipment is made by the lowest bidder. "I saved a bunch of money on my pistol collection by switching to Glock!" [LOL]
Interesting:
BREAKING: Glock 17M Recalled By Police Department
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/08/19/breaking-glock-17m-recalled-police-department/
same photos
Breaking: Photo Of The New FBI Glock 17M Leaked
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/08/16/photos-new-glock-17m-leaked/
Interesting:
BREAKING: Glock 17M Recalled By Police Department
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/08/19/breaking-glock-17m-recalled-police-department/
same photos
Breaking: Photo Of The New FBI Glock 17M Leaked
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/08/16/photos-new-glock-17m-leaked/
Glock perfection.
SA Friday
08-20-2016, 10:20
Glock perfection.
Even Scarlett Johansson was ugly when she was in her infancy. You ever seen Home Alone 2? That girl was ugly...
If a human being had something to do with it, it ain't perfect. [oops]
ruthabagah
08-20-2016, 10:50
Interesting:
BREAKING: Glock 17M Recalled By Police Department
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/08/19/breaking-glock-17m-recalled-police-department/
same photos
Breaking: Photo Of The New FBI Glock 17M Leaked
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/08/16/photos-new-glock-17m-leaked/
Looks like my fnx, just uglier.
Even Scarlett Johansson was ugly when she was in her infancy. You ever seen Home Alone 2? That girl was ugly...
For a LE contract, where reliability is a life and death, there is no excuse for delivering faulty pistols. It's not just Glock, all the major players deliver faulty pistols.
Mike
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