View Full Version : Self-solving problem?
It is just me, or it this a case of "self-policing" behavior?
Headlines:
New Age Heroin Is Killing People At A Dizzying Rate
Sub-headline: 'Silence is allowing the crisis to go from epidemic to pandemic'
So, let me get this straight, we have a lot of stupid dopers, killing themselves with "bad" drugs...I'll wait while that sinks in...
and now we're supposed to think this is a "pandemic"??? WTF?
I'm sorry, I'm not overly concerned that I will succumb to this "pandemic".
Read more: http://dailycaller.com#ixzz4I0PAEOvR (http://dailycaller.com/#ixzz4I0PAEOvR)
Read more: http://dailycaller.com#ixzz4I0OByjYr (http://dailycaller.com/#ixzz4I0OByjYr)
I almost didn't even click on this thread because of the title. Thought to myself, "sounds like he has it handled."
On a side note, Krokodile for the win!
Your links aren't working by the way. Takes you to main page.
I won't lose any sleep.
Me neither.
On a serious note, I don't think this is a self-solving problem. This is an issue because people with no prior drug use or tenancies are becoming addicted at alarming rates due to addiction to prescription meds. So while it's easy to imagine these people dying of over doses are life long dirt bags, a significant portion were otherwise everyday people.
hurley842002
08-21-2016, 16:16
On a serious note, I don't think this is a self-solving problem. This is an issue because people with no prior drug use or tenancies are becoming addicted at alarming rates due to addiction to prescription meds. So while it's easy to imagine these people dying of over doses are life long dirt bags, a significant portion were otherwise everyday people.
Thanks for that Irv. As someone who lost a loved one to prescription drug use (my younger brother at the age of 25), it's an important topic of discussion for me. My brother was injured while serving in the Army, and instead of fixing the problem via surgery, it was easier and cheaper for the VA to put him on a pain med script for an indefinite amount of time, things took off from there. I won't get any further into the story as I'm sure most here won't care to hear it, after all the problem solved itself right?
Thanks for that Irv. As someone who lost a loved one to prescription drug use (my younger brother at the age of 25), it's an important topic of discussion for me. My brother was injured while serving in the Army, and instead of fixing the problem via surgery, it was easier and cheaper for the VA to put him on a pain med script for an indefinite amount of time, things took off from there. I won't get any further into the story as I'm sure most here won't care to hear it, after all the problem solved itself right?
I wouldn't say it's self solving. I wouldn't say most don't care. Some of us can relate. Some of us have probably been down that path ourselves or have family that have been.
Sent by a free-range electronic weasel, with no sense of personal space.
I'd feel comfortable enough to guess that there are members here who suffer from addiction to prescription drugs. No one is going to post about it though. That thread would be more full of stupid than when members here get all up in arms over marijuana use.
That's a great point, foxtrot, I hadn't thought of that. I was prescribed Percs and just a few Oxy's after my eye surgery and I can totally see how easy it would be to become dependent. One of the many reasons I'm glad to have health insurance and not have to depend on the VA.
Krokodile has been around for years, not necessarily here in the US though. I believe it originated in Russia. Why anyone would do that to themselves is beyond me. Pictures I've seen of the aftermath of that drug are horrific.
Heroin use is on the rise because it's cheaper on the black market than the opiate pain killers (made from the same drugs as heroin) the doctors are prescribing (as foxtrot stated) to people like candy. I've known several people who are addicted, and my mom, who is a counselor and an addiction specialist, sees it everyday. Doctors are making the lousy excuse that they weren't told the addictive nature of the pain killers by the manufacturers of said drugs.
I was one of those over prescribed pain management pills from a lousy work comp doc. Foxtrot is spot on
I got off that crap many moons ago. Some days are better than others but chronic pain is a real issue that has no universal solution
Great-Kazoo
08-21-2016, 20:50
I've never taken a single fucking opiate even when prescribed in my life. I've not had a single family member addicted - in part because I'd ride their ass. Advil is nice, Tylenol is nice, and you know what, pain is nice too. If you want to keep you and your family safe from this statistic, I suggest keeping the same policy and never filling those "heavy" prescriptions. This is literally becoming as dangerous as car accidents. It's easy to think you are personally immune or stronger than anyone else, but thousands of great people have fallen to this - many better, stronger, than you. Some don't statistically die from the overdose, but it leads them towards other avenues such as suicide.
[This post is not personally directed to any individual, but rather generally addressed as a foxtrot PSA]
There are some people that NSAID's are not doable.
I agree with everything else you said. In pain, POP a pill. Inquire about medicinal MJ and you'd think they caught their spouse going down on you .
[panic]WHATTTTTTTTTT MARIJUANA [panic] [panic][panic] SORRY That's a schedule 1, very addictive drug, here's a script for MS contin. See you in 3 weeks.
gnihcraes
08-21-2016, 20:56
Some days are better than others but chronic pain is a real issue that has no universal solution
Amen. Docs won't even prescribe pain killers for me, I'll need to take them the rest of my life. I get by with some nerve pain meds.
Aloha_Shooter
08-21-2016, 20:58
I always preferred twinges of pain over feeling out of it so while I've had percocet prescribed a few times, I always used it sparingly. Best advice I got for pain management was after some dental surgery to alternate ibuprofen and acetaminophen. I can see people being addicted to painkillers but it seems a stretch to go to heroin -- guess I'm just lucky to never have had that kind of pain.
Why is it such a stretch? Heroin is easier and cheaper to get on the black market than opiate pain pills.
Great-Kazoo
08-21-2016, 21:20
Why is it such a stretch? Heroin is easier and cheaper to get on the black market than opiate pain pills.
True.
jhood001
08-21-2016, 21:53
Without offending this is a naive response. You ever had a surgery, dental procedure, or similar in the last decade? Suffered from debilitating pain?
The opiates that doctors are prescribing as if they are tic tacs were only intended and approved for hospice, i.e. end of life pain management. When you see the rates that production has increased, it is literally being handed out in prescriptions like it is candy. Something like fifteen years ago (running on fuzzy memory) production was only a few tons. Now it is thousands of tons. (IIRC, may be mistaken, but we are literally talking that large of an increase in fifteen years).
Ask your local law enforcement department and they will tell you that heroin/prescription opiate abuse is the #1 problem now. And surprisingly, it's not arising in the "inner city" / "minority/homeless" populations. It is originating in white suburbia. The only reason that you don't see overdose deaths every day in the news in your local is because LEO (as well as EMT/Paramed) all generally pack the antidote, and it works, incredibly well. If this was the 1970's you'd be seeing more people dead from opiates than car accidents.
Here is where the problem lies. You guys on your high horses think this is an addict problem, because you are in great health. The second you suffer some long term debilitating pain - on the job accident for instance - and your fuckwit GP prescribes you oxy or vicodyn, you start taking it. It doesn't actually last 12 hours like they promise, so you need to take slightly more than prescribed to make it through the day. You become mildly dependant on it just to manage your pain. Then you actually become chemically dependent on it. Yup, this can easily happen to your child, your nephew, your elderly father, even you. These people aren't addicts.
Eventually, the prescriptions end, and the debilitating pain returns on top of insane, uncontrollable withdrawal symtoms. Where do they turn? Black market or grey market prescriptions, or Heroin. Not for the high, but to maintain the dependence.
Only now, Heroin is more pure by factors of 1000% than it used to be, so you have people overdosing on their first hit. They don't die thanks to the antidote. Most of the people using Heroin are not junkies looking for a high, they are your neighbors or your neighbor kids - otherwise nice looking - that were originally prescribed an opiate by a doctor for some bullshit tooth ache or a sports injury.
Before you go thinking, "Damn, foxtrot has way too much personal experience with this...."
I've never taken a single fucking opiate even when prescribed in my life. I've not had a single family member addicted - in part because I'd ride their ass. Advil is nice, Tylenol is nice, and you know what, pain is nice too. If you want to keep you and your family safe from this statistic, I suggest keeping the same policy and never filling those "heavy" prescriptions. This is literally becoming as dangerous as car accidents. It's easy to think you are personally immune or stronger than anyone else, but thousands of great people have fallen to this - many better, stronger, than you. Some don't statistically die from the overdose, but it leads them towards other avenues such as suicide.
[This post is not personally directed to any individual, but rather generally addressed as a foxtrot PSA]
Foxtrot, please stop deep-diving on issues. It robs me of my ability to bitch about issues (that I actually know nothing about) that I can normally categorize and set aside as being adverse to my personal belief regime.
I don't understand addiction. And because I don't; it doesn't exist.
Scanker19
08-21-2016, 22:01
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ao8L-0nSYzg
jhood001
08-21-2016, 22:30
[Flower]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ao8L-0nSYzg
HoneyBadger
08-21-2016, 22:48
I have been prescribed percocet before and I can definitely see how easily people can become addicted. I think I tend to be more susceptible to addiction than most, and ended up throwing a bunch of it away after a bone graft surgery because I knew I wouldn't be able to manage it responsibly.
Edit: After watching that video above, maybe I just need better friends. [LOL]
I think I've taken percocet once, and it didn't seem to do anything, so I didn't take the rest of the prescription. Had a whole bottle lying around for a while. I think I kept it for preps for a while, then eventually tossed it.
GilpinGuy
08-22-2016, 00:52
I really don't get how people get hooked on these prescription drugs. I've have a few surgeries and been given vicoden, percoset (sp?), yadda yadda, and I can't stand any of that shit.
If I was in serious pain, sure, I'd take it. But I would be a drooling couch zombie for hours. F-that.
I guess some folks like to be in that state. [Dunno]
Those that have long term pain problems are another situation.
I really don't get how people get hooked on these prescription drugs. I've have a few surgeries and been given vicoden, percoset (sp?), yadda yadda, and I can't stand any of that shit.
If I was in serious pain, sure, I'd take it. But I would be a drooling couch zombie for hours. F-that.
I guess some folks like to be in that state. [Dunno]
Those that have long term pain problems are another situation.
I think that different drugs affect people in different ways. My post right above yours illustrates how I didn't feel anything. I know I've seen a lot of people on here say they felt like drooling zombies on whatever drug, so they avoid it. I don't think it affects everyone the same way though.
Also it should be noted that there's physical pain and nerve pain. Having the joy of both I can tell you if you're in nerve pain you will consider ANYTHING to make it stop when it gets intense. It's kind of like your brain is torturing you.
As far as how the pills effected me they made me not care. I could feel the bone on bone contact in injured joints. Meh. Sure my hand feels like it's on the stove but it must be time for another pill.
Great-Kazoo
08-22-2016, 07:29
Those that have long term pain problems are another situation.
This answered the first part of your reply. LONG TERM PAIN.
Some can and some cannot take OTC's or other forms of pain mgt. Some can and others cannot control the substance they take. Be it alcohol, cigarettes, illegal substances OR pharmaceuticals.
Some people are in continual pain that warrants heavier doses of ANY script / opiate. Some manage the Mg subscribed, others cannot. Unfortunately there's no cookie cutter solution.
For some an addiction to easier to get drugs is the path. Others have friends, family, support group[s] "prayer" and most of all some will power, to do as much as possible to not allow the drug to ru[i]n their life.
It could take weeks or years to wean one off said opiate. OR it could take one to the grave.
Regarding the "Heroin Influx" It's been here for decades. Prescription Opiates has taken that need or demand to a level that hasn't even scratched the surface.
HoneyBadger
08-22-2016, 11:40
Back to solving the problem, here's one idea that I think is a step in the right direction: Legal, supervised, injection centers. "More people are seeking treatment, HIV transmission from needle sharing has dropped and fewer people are injecting drugs, according to a report which analyzed 15 years of drug data and was cited by the Vancouver Sun in a 2013 article."
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/02/22/mayor-wants-to-open-supervised-injection-facility-for-heroin-in-ny-city.html
BushMasterBoy
08-22-2016, 13:59
I had Tramadol prescribed for a toothache. Took it for 4 days, then quit taking it. The withdrawl symptoms were horrible. I could imagine what it would be like if I took it for two weeks. Bad part was knowing it would all go away, if I just took another pill. Finally got a root canal and crown.
When you have the withdrawls, you start sweating when feeling cold. Heart racing, skin crawling wanting to vomit, extreme nervousness, stomachache, etc. You literally feel like you are going insane! Watch out for synthetic opiates. Screw that !
Also it should be noted that there's physical pain and nerve pain. Having the joy of both I can tell you if you're in nerve pain you will consider ANYTHING to make it stop when it gets intense. It's kind of like your brain is torturing you.
As far as how the pills effected me they made me not care. I could feel the bone on bone contact in injured joints. Meh. Sure my hand feels like it's on the stove but it must be time for another pill.
I can testify to this. I had a herniated disc in my neck after an injury in the Army, and the disc was pushing on the nerve root... That is some pain you wouldn't believe. It got so bad, even after the docs gave me vicodin, that the prescribed schedule did almost nothing for me. They upped my Rx to oral morphine pills (the nasty little red ones). I thought for sure I'd get hooked on those, so I took them sparingly and dealt with the pain until surgery. Post-op, Percocet. I was given a 2 month supply for recovery, and after three months still had plenty left over because of the fear of getting dangerously addicted. I didn't sleep for about 20 days straight, thanks to the pain. I see it in my job all the time, normal, everyday, mid-20's folks coming in that a year prior were great kids, no criminal history, and they get hooked. Heroin is a nasty substance, and for a while, our jail's medical unit had only two non-opioid withdraw people. It happens to normal people, like Foxtrot says, and it's awful. We're working on getting NarcON for our agency to help (that's the antidote stuff that Foxtrot mentioned). This is a real issue, and it's not just the junkies that are affected.
Back to solving the problem, here's one idea that I think is a step in the right direction: Legal, supervised, injection centers. "More people are seeking treatment, HIV transmission from needle sharing has dropped and fewer people are injecting drugs, according to a report which analyzed 15 years of drug data and was cited by the Vancouver Sun in a 2013 article."
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/02/22/mayor-wants-to-open-supervised-injection-facility-for-heroin-in-ny-city.html
Or there is the opposite response which is going on in the Philippines right now. I'll post the story when I get home.
Tl;dr version is new President says he'll solve the drug issue in 3-6 months...by killing dealers and addicts. Police have killed over 700 people and vigilantes have killed over an additional 1,000.
colorider
08-23-2016, 18:32
Father in law had knee surgery. Family gave specific instruction that absolutely no narcodic or opioids to be given for aftercare pain. He had problems with alcohol and pills in the past They ignored our requests. Father in law was dead within a year due to prescription drug dependency and abuse. He would go to the doctors and "pain management" Doctor they referred him to and they would simply just fill his bucket with oxy. Prescription drugs are abused and doctors make addicts out of patients. Mother in law died a year later from the same problems. Was a really messed up year. You can only do so much to help, and we did all we could. Don't want to post all the horrible details
some
Bailey Guns
08-23-2016, 20:28
I have a close friend who's a disabled Navy vet. Working on a carrier deck lifting a light piece of electronic gear into an A-6 in 1986. Woke up several days later in a military hospital in Europe paralyzed. After 30-something spinal surgeries he can walk...barely. He takes liquid morphine "just to take the edge off" as he puts it. I can't even begin to list all the other opiate-based pain killers he takes. But he needs them just to function at his very low level.
Last year, because of the issue surrounding opiate pain killers, the VA cut him off. Completely. Offered him pain management classes and some NSAID over the counter pain reliever. Let's just say life is miserable for him. He's a guy that really needs them and can't get them now.
GilpinGuy
08-23-2016, 20:28
Pain management folks that get hooked and then move to heroin are one thing. And really, how do you have a script long enough that that you get addicted, then suddeny don't get the script anymore, so you go to heroin? Seems like a doc would know what's up if the patient was up front and help you if you had a problem.
Never been there myself, so I have no idea.
Idiots that do heroin for fun are another story.
Either way, it's sad.
GilpinGuy
08-23-2016, 20:35
Ok, BG answered part of my question. My guess is that non-VA patients would fare better, sadly.
Here is the story about the Philippines.
http://www.cpr.org/news/npr-story/under-new-philippine-president-nearly-1800-have-died-in-extrajudicial-killings
GilpinGuy
08-23-2016, 20:50
Here is the story about the Philippines.
http://www.cpr.org/news/npr-story/under-new-philippine-president-nearly-1800-have-died-in-extrajudicial-killings
So wrong.
jerrymrc
08-23-2016, 21:02
Many know that I take my meds and have for over 10 years. My doc once asked me about trying MMJ. I work for the DOD........ Do they work like they used to? no. Do I go through withdraw symptoms without? somewhat. I have and can go without. Do I like it? no. Do I understand addiction and what it can do? yes. To be honest it has taken many years to learn to manage my pain. I have good days and bad. They do affect people differently.
I had a boss once find out that I took Oxy and he freaked out saying I could not work while on my meds. I explained that when he saw me running around taking care of stuff that I was on them. When he saw me slowly moving and my head was down and in pain I was not. Which worker did he want? All that said anyone that has not been there need not apply. The option in my case just might mean more meds and I am on the line I do not want to cross. It all comes down to understanding where that line is. Some cross that line and when it blows up the result is not pretty and people do OD.
I do know many in the DOD and VA system that because of the new guidance from our CIC got the short end of the stick. Some were over medicated to begin with but you do not take someone that takes 90+ Mg of Oxy a day and make them go cold turkey. That is what fuels the switch to heroin. Just my two cents on the subject.
GilpinGuy
08-23-2016, 21:14
Should we feel differently for those that got hooked "for fun"? My guess is that the OP was more on the side of NO in this regard.
Kraven251
08-24-2016, 00:08
eh, while I appreciate the perspective of people that have transitioned from legal to illegal use because of over prescription/dependency...
I had a mother that took liquid oxy til the day she died and my wife is currently fighting her own demons due to a neurologist that couldn't ask the right questions. To that end, if people are turning to the illegal route for their fix and it kills them, they are better for it.
Sorry, no sympathy, no empathy, I'd love to say they could get help, or something to that effect, but bottom line they like being high or they would have asked for help.
Unfortunately, fresh out of shits to give.
Long, but excellent, article on the current opioid issues:
AMERICAN CARNAGE
THE NEW LANDSCAPE OF OPIOID ADDICTION
by Christopher Caldwell
April 2017
https://www.firstthings.com/article/2017/04/american-carnage#print
What I can say, is that for folks that need opiate pain medications for the right reasons, the "war on opiates" is a pain in the ass. I have control issues and don't have addictive tendencies, so I guess I don't understand the problem. The massive abuse is being done by a few, to make things difficult for the many. The government's approach will do little to solve the problem.
The 'Oxy Express': Florida's Drug Abuse Epidemic (http://www.npr.org/2011/03/02/134143813/the-oxy-express-floridas-drug-abuse-epidemic)
Doctors in Florida prescribe 10 times more oxycodone pills than every other state in the country combined.
Sixty-six percent of all oxycodone sold in Florida came from this company. But the DEA’s case against it faltered.
(https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/investigations/dea-mallinckrodt/?utm_term=.2e1c2129b03e)
To combat an escalating opioid epidemic, the Drug Enforcement Administration trained its sights in 2011 on Mallinckrodt Pharmaceuticals, one of the nation’s largest manufacturers of the highly addictive generic painkiller oxycodone.
It was the first time the DEA had targeted a manufacturer of opioids for alleged violations of laws designed to prevent diversion of legal narcotics to the black market. And it would become the largest prescription-drug case the agency has pursued.
Ultimately, the DEA and federal prosecutors would contend that the company ignored its responsibility to report suspicious orders as 500 million of its pills ended up in Florida between 2008 and 2012 — 66 percent of all oxycodone sold in the state. Government investigators alleged in internal documents that the company’s lack of due diligence could have resulted in nearly 44,000 federal violations and exposed it to $2.3 billion in fines, according to confidential government records and emails obtained by The Washington Post.
But six years later, after four investigations that spanned five states, the government has taken no legal action against Mallinckrodt.
Instead, the company has reached a tentative settlement with federal prosecutors, according to sources familiar with the discussions. Under the proposal, which remains confidential, Mallinckrodt would agree to pay a $35 million fine and admit no wrongdoing.
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