80% lower Question

[fmj50]

If one were to buy and mill the pockets on an 80% lowers, but NOT drill the holes thru the side, would one be able to sell it like that without background check??

[gnihcraes]

If one were to buy and mill the pockets on an 80% lowers, but NOT drill the holes thru the side, would one be able to sell it like that without background check??

I would believe that it's not an 80% anymore and not transferrable unless you did the BGC. But I'm just guessing!

[00tec]

BCG required. If it was not, the people that sell 80% lowers would sell them that way. They would sell a LOT more of them

[ray1970]

No bueno.

[Grant H.]

Bad juju...

Not only would a BGC be required, but you would also be required to be 07 FFL (manufacturing).

[SA Friday]

80% lowers are just all around a bad idea. I have lost count how many I've worked on and found them improperly finished, improperly made from the factory, too soft an aluminum... Throw in one can't get the aluminum surface hardened by some sort of finish coating and you have a lower that's going to wobble out the holes in no time. Waste of money and time.

[Joe_K]

Don't do it. Not worth the hassle. I did one through Ares Armor in 2012 in SoCal. Had to trash it in 2015.

Velocitas, Opprimere,
Violentia Operandi

[00tec]

Don't do it. Not worth the hassle. I did one through Ares Armor in 2012 in SoCal. Had to trash it in 2015.

Velocitas, Opprimere,
Violentia Operandi

Aluminum or their plastic ones?

[Wulf202]

If you agree with the ares armor coloring book you're ok.

Every atf letter on the subject says it's a gun though.

[Joe_K]

Aluminum or their plastic ones?
Forged Aluminum in the white.

Velocitas, Opprimere,
Violentia Operandi

[jkoby27]

80% lowers are just all around a bad idea. I have lost count how many I've worked on and found them improperly finished, improperly made from the factory, too soft an aluminum... Throw in one can't get the aluminum surface hardened by some sort of finish coating and you have a lower that's going to wobble out the holes in no time. Waste of money and time.

Hey SA if your so against 80% lowers and if they are just a bad idea then why were you grilling me about how to anodize one. You obviously don't care for them. Were you even interested in the anodizing or were you just trying to be an asshole in my thread cause you don't like 80% lowers. Also why are you working on 80% lowers if your so against them and they are crap? All the reputable gunsmiths I know refuse to even touch them because it's up to the owner to complete them.

[Irving]

If you're done with this forum, be done with it. No one likes a sniffling little baby that sulks around every where. People were "grilling" you about the anodizing because they were interested in whether you did it yourself, or had someone else do it for you. If you did it yourself, they were interested in a write up of your experience. No one needs your help to learn a new skill, but they'd surely be interested in what you did, and whether you'd do the same thing again or make any changes.

We COULD have been talking about this in your own thread, but since you threw a fit and deleted all your posts, we can't do that. Now you're over here crapping in another guy's thread. Internet forum party foul bra. You were off to a great start, don't screw it up now. You need to understand that if you put yourself out there online, you're going to get feedback and questions. If you want to just put up pictures of something you've done that turned out well, and don't want any comments or questions or interaction, then Pintrest is more your speed.

[nogaroheli]

Whoa, that's new news to me. I thought you could make a fine lower out of a forged 80% lower. Is it the lack of hard anodizing in the holes that makes them more prone to wearing out? Would hard anodizing one after being completed solve that issue? Would that even be an option on an anodized 80% lower? I know the average home builder will have less accurate results than a manufacturer and that's another issue altogether.

I love the idea of building one for the sake of saying I did it myself but not if it's going to be vastly inferior.

[00tec]

Just use some KNS pins and never think about it again.

[driver]

Irving for moderator in 2016

[Joe_K]

Irving for moderator in 2016
This!....Hell at this point Irving for President!

Velocitas, Opprimere,
Violentia Operandi

[Great-Kazoo]

This!....Hell at this point Irving for President!

Velocitas, Opprimere,
Violentia Operandi


Wrong gender

[Irving]

That guy seemed pretty capable and I'd like him to give it another shot, but not everyone figures out the nuances of the Internet forum right away.

[hurley842002]

That guy seemed pretty capable and I'd like him to give it another shot, but not everyone figures out the nuances of the Internet forum right away.
Kind of what I was thinking, unfortunately I don't think he's having any part of it.

[cstone]

Irving for moderator in 2016

He needs a higher post count. [Coffee]

[Great-Kazoo]

He needs a higher post count. [Coffee]



Mmmmmmm ;)

[Joe_K]

Wrong gender
?

Velocitas, Opprimere,
Violentia Operandi

[OneGuy67]

That guy seemed pretty capable and I'd like him to give it another shot, but not everyone figures out the nuances of the Internet forum right away.

I was interested in his builds and I learned there were 80% Sig products out there and that excited me. However, he is ignorant to some things and the peeps on this forum are anything if not making sure we are lawful in what we do in order to not show a negative light to our hobby. If he stays, he will have to learn that. If he goes...his loss.

[Great-Kazoo]

?

Velocitas, Opprimere,
Violentia Operandi


President / gender......................................

Tough crowd.

[SA Friday]

Hey SA if your so against 80% lowers and if they are just a bad idea then why were you grilling me about how to anodize one. You obviously don't care for them. Were you even interested in the anodizing or were you just trying to be an asshole in my thread cause you don't like 80% lowers. Also why are you working on 80% lowers if your so against them and they are crap? All the reputable gunsmiths I know refuse to even touch them because it's up to the owner to complete them.
I know he's gone, but I'll answer this anyway for future reference. 80% lowers have problems with the lack of surface hardening that anodizing makes. The holes wobble out for the hammer and trigger and safety selector. KNS pins help, but eventually even they are futile if the holes get too out of spec. Then you have a couple of hundred dollars sunk into a piece of shit paperweight. There are lots of motivations to go this route, but the one I hear constantly is to circumvent a government paper trail. Sorry, but the purchase of the 80% lower left a trail. I know, I used to run down trails like this all the time as a fed. The other is because they want to make their own, it's an extension of building your own gun. I get it. I do it for a living. Because I build about 500 ARs a year and service three times that I get to see what does and doesn't work. These don't, not for any lengthy about of use at least. So you get stuck. The solution is to anodize it and extend the longevity. One can look around for someone who can anodize it for them and learn that NOBODY legitimately can take that unserialized lower and anodize it. If you know someone who professionally finishes aluminum parts, you might be able to convince them to commit a class 2 felony for you. You will get a really nice anodized finish that way. You can then run around at tell all your buddies and anyone else that will listen how you did a home anodizing finish on it. Having seen home anodizing jobs by some really experienced gunsmiths, I can tell you one isn't just going to arbitrarily shit out a professional anodizing job on anything without dropping at least $500 and ruining about a dozen 'learning pieces'. By the time someone has it down, they have gone through enough money to build two of the guns they want with high quality parts completed by a legitimate manufacturer. OR!!!! Convince a buddy to do the finish under the table. Personally, I really could care less.

Now, here's were I get fucking annoyed with people. You start positing pics of your 80% shit on line and believe that nobody is going to call you on your under the table finish job. You can't explain how you did the finish, and you know damn well you can't admit you convinced a buddy to commit a felony for you. How can anyone be able to describe in detail exactly how they CNC machined a sig lower but when asked multiple times how they anodized the lower can only post a you tube video? This fails even the most simple critical thinking.

Here's the problem if I would have done nothing, impression. This give the impression that the gun community publicly turns a blind eye to these issues. Mark my words here and now, 80% lowers are going to die a legislative death and it will happen soon. Having guys posting threads where it's easy to see they probably got someone to break the law for them brings the shit pie to our doorstep when that legislative fight comes. It doesn't matter if we all think its right or wrong. Public sentiment in a federal republic does count.

As for working on other's 80% lowers, I do deal with them. So does everyone at Bowers Tactical. We try to help everyone we can. That doesn't mean we won't tell you the truth about your 80% lower weather it's amazing machining or just plain fucked up. We will tell you what issue to keep an eye out for and possible solutions when they occur. We will help you as much as legally allowed. We will not let you leave the 80% lower, EVER! Not even to go to your car with it sitting on the table. If you want to know where you can get a kit to anodize at home, I'll even pull the one company that has a pretty legit system for home brewing the coating up and give you the info.

But don't come on this site bullshitting about getting someone to commit a felony for you. That fucking pisses me off.

[colorider]

Tanks for the detailed info safriday. Stuff I never knew and pretty much convinced me doing an 80% lower would be a fun project, but not a fun project with a long term usable product.

[Irving]

To be clear, a completed lower with a serial number can be left some where, right? Or is this a new thing with the recent ITAR changes?

[OneGuy67]

To be clear, a completed lower with a serial number can be left some where, right? Or is this a new thing with the recent ITAR changes?

Yes, to the first part.

[68Charger]

Looks like I missed a bunch of drama...

To SA's point- there are different "types" of anodizing...
type I uses chromic acid, and is a soft, ductile treatment... not hardened at all- for different applications than AR lowers

type II uses sulfuric acid, with a thickness of 1.8-25 microns, and can be done at home with the right equipment- even a battery charger- the better controlled the process, the thicker the anodizing will be.

type III uses sulfuric/oxalic acid solution that is refrigerated to near freezing, and much higher voltage and current levels (~6A per sq ft) to get thickness 13-150 microns. This is really beyond any home setup, as you need a liquid chiller that is resistant to acid (titanium), as well as high quality power supply that can supply constant current (as opposed to constant voltage like most power supplies)
As you add more power, the acid will heat up, and your chiller needs to be of enough capacity to keep the temperature controlled. Then there's the issue that type 3 anodizing has much smaller pores- so is much more difficult to dye (requiring special dye).

If I owned all the special equipment, I wouldn't want to allow someone to use it to anodizing their lower- besides the obvious liability issues. And the way the laws are currently interpreted, if I assisted I need a 07 FFL.

[68Charger]

To be clear, a completed lower with a serial number can be left some where, right? Or is this a new thing with the recent ITAR changes?

Somewhere with an FFL- and it goes in their log book [panic]

[Irving]

Yes, to the first part.

Okay, thank you.

[nogaroheli]

Okay, educational. Thanks for the big insight guys!

[jkoby27]

Now, here's were I get fucking annoyed with people. You start positing pics of your 80% shit on line and believe that nobody is going to call you on your under the table finish job. You can't explain how you did the finish, and you know damn well you can't admit you convinced a buddy to commit a felony for you. How can anyone be able to describe in detail exactly how they CNC machined a sig lower but when asked multiple times how they anodized the lower can only post a you tube video? This fails even the most simple critical

First off the gun I built isn't shit. Second I didn't cnc machine anything. I never said I did. I bought this project as a kit online that came with everything needed to complete. I did not finish it on a cnc machine. I'm not a machinist and have no clue how to operate a cnc machine hahaha so wtf are you even talking about. The kit came with a rail cutter that is easy to use. It also came with a drilling jig so you use a simple powered drill to drill the holes. This isn't a very hard project like you think. At least not with the jigs I bought. I'm not the only one who as said it and I'm definitely not advising it but a 12 year old could complete the lower with these jigs, they are that easy. Honestly the hardest part was assembling the fucking pistol cause I'd never assembled a sig haha. One of the anodizing video I posted was part 3 of a 4 part video series on how you can build one of these 80% sigs. I'm not trying to be an asshole and I might have gotten a little defensive when I could tell you were trying to incriminate me on this forum. I apologize. It's just a battery acid anodize bath braaaaa lol. It may look good in the photos but it already scratching, especially the takedown lever has been scratching the frame and also I've noticed in the magwell the magazine is chaffing on the inside of the magwell which is wearing through to the bare aluminum but it doesn't matter cause you can't see in there when your shooting. Anyways like I said earlier I looked into the laws before I started this project to make sure I was within my legal boundaries. SA if you really want me to write up some directions on battery acid anodizing I guess I could. You will need distilled water, baking soda, plastic buckets, sheet of lead, Turkey pans, titanium or aluminum wire, die(you can use clothing dye), battery acid, battery charger. But basicly you degrease your aluminum your anodizing and your wire in a decreasing bath using dish soap lol. Then you rinse it off good and use gloves so you don't get any finger oils on the aluminum. Use a plastic bucket for your anodize bath. Needs to be in a ventilated area around 70 degrees. Set your lead sheet in the anodize bath bucket and fill it with 1 gallon of distilled water. Then pour the battery acid in to the distilled water. Use 1 quart so it's 4 to 1 ratio of water to acid.. be careful when handling the acid. (Wear gloves that are thick or chemical resistant) connect negative end of battery charger to the lead. Turn your charger to 2 amps. Place the aluminum your anodizing into the bath and suspend it with the wire and a wooden stick. Connect your positive lead to the wire. If bubbling occurs on the lead it's working and the anodizing has started. Leave it for an hour in there and make sure the temp is around 70 degrees. Check it with a thermometer. Prepare your die bath and boiling bath while your waiting. The dye bath is distilled water and dye and should be at around 125 degrees. The boiling bath is just distilled water. So once it's been in the anodizing bath for an hour, rinse it in distilled water and then put it in the dye bath. Leave it in there for about a half hour. Then take it out of the dye bath and put it in the boiling bath for a few mins. Take it out let it cool off and dry that son of a bitch off and assemble ye pistol lol! I'd recommend watching or reading some tutorials or video as there could be a few details I left out. Also enlist a buddy to have around for moral support lol and to make sure your following the directions. I chose my father haha

[Grant H.]

I know he's gone, but I'll answer this anyway for future reference. 80% lowers have problems with the lack of surface hardening that anodizing makes. The holes wobble out for the hammer and trigger and safety selector. KNS pins help, but eventually even they are futile if the holes get too out of spec. Then you have a couple of hundred dollars sunk into a piece of shit paperweight. There are lots of motivations to go this route, but the one I hear constantly is to circumvent a government paper trail. Sorry, but the purchase of the 80% lower left a trail. I know, I used to run down trails like this all the time as a fed. The other is because they want to make their own, it's an extension of building your own gun. I get it. I do it for a living. Because I build about 500 ARs a year and service three times that I get to see what does and doesn't work. These don't, not for any lengthy about of use at least. So you get stuck. The solution is to anodize it and extend the longevity.

So, how many rounds does it take for one to wallow out?

How many have you seen wallowed out?

Not trying to pick on you, but you are invested in people NOT doing 80% lowers (lets be honest, you are involved in a store that does a lot of business selling stripped lowers or completed rifles), and you don't give any actual information in your post. You just say it won't work out that well.

[68Charger]

So, how many rounds does it take for one to wallow out?

How many have you seen wallowed out?

Not trying to pick on you, but you are invested in people NOT doing 80% lowers (lets be honest, you are involved in a store that does a lot of business selling stripped lowers or completed rifles), and you don't give any actual information in your post. You just say it won't work out that well.

There are too many variables to quantify that- 6061 vs 7075, forged vs billet... if there is any heat treat, etc.

If it is wallowed out, there are repair methods- drill to a larger side and install bushings...

like this service (but done in your garage): http://www.triggerwork.net/arrepair.html

[Irving]

I was going to ask about just drilling larger and installing bushings from the get go.

[henpecked]

Place a ball bearing over the oversize hole and give it a tap.

[jkoby27]

I was going to ask about just drilling larger and installing bushings from the get go.

I would probably do that as a last resort only if the holes really did get wallowed out. My buddy who is the one who helped get me into guns and also convinced me to try building my own has an ar15 built with an 80 lower and he has owned it for almost 2 years now and has had zero issues. His lower is 7075 aluminum not 6061. The lower is also raw unfinished aluminum. 6061 doesn't provide the same high strenght and stress resistance as 7075 I've been told. Maybe the 6061 lower holes are more likely to wallow out if unfinished.

[Grant H.]

There are too many variables to quantify that- 6061 vs 7075, forged vs billet... if there is any heat treat, etc.

If it is wallowed out, there are repair methods- drill to a larger side and install bushings...

like this service (but done in your garage): http://www.triggerwork.net/arrepair.html

I'm aware of these factors making a difference, and yes, using a steel bushing would be a 100% diy-accomplishable task that would fix it. I don't count myself in the standard DIY group, because I have a lot of tools that most people do not.

Just trying to get him to back up his assertions that 80% lowers don't work, since they actually do.

[hurley842002]

A lot of chips on shoulders around these parts lately...

[Joe_K]

I'm aware of these factors making a difference, and yes, using a steel bushing would be a 100% diy-accomplishable task that would fix it. I don't count myself in the standard DIY group, because I have a lot of tools that most people do not.

Just trying to get him to back up his assertions that 80% lowers don't work, since they actually do.
I think different folks have different standards for works. There are so many variables to 80% lowers that it's hard to generalize, but knowing SA Friday and the shop that employs him I know first hand that his proclamation that 80% lowers are bad news isn't a plot to get you to spend more money in the shop, as some have suggested.
If the 80% lower is obtained from a reputable source and has been machined to Spec and then the owner mills out the final 20% to Spec, and then the raw aluminum is finished correctly...to Spec, and the lower parts kits are installed correctly and are themselves made to Spec then there should be no problems. However few are set up this way and generally the cost is higher then simply purchasing an Aero, BCM, DD, Spikes etc factory finished lower. The QC processes of say Aero Precision for example are almost always going to have a higher standard then the average home build.

Velocitas, Opprimere,
Violentia Operandi

[jkoby27]

A lot of chips on shoulders around these parts lately...

I didn't want to start an uproar with Irving, SA, or any other members. Just wanted to share my project with some local gun enthusiasts. I felt like I was trying to be criminalized and that my posts were under appreciated by a few and that's why I got defensive. I would like to apologize and clear this up cause I don't wanna be the guy who created some Internet forum drama.

[ray1970]

I'm just going to keep mine for a paperweight because it's so bad ass.
[Awesom]

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160926/64005e4588dde9ba168369291c5018c3.jpg

[ray1970]

Or maybe build a non functioning display rifle.

If that's legal.

[hurley842002]

I didn't want to start an uproar with Irving, SA, or any other members. Just wanted to share my project with some local gun enthusiasts. I felt like I was trying to be criminalized and that my posts were under appreciated by a few and that's why I got defensive. I would like to apologize and clear this up cause I don't wanna be the guy who created some Internet forum drama.

Oh I'm certainly not referring to just you, I think as far as things go, what's done is done, perhaps start over and discover this is one of the best forums on the net, and a good majority of the folks here are some of the best people in the gun community. Like text messaging, I think sometimes posting on here generates the wrong intentions, and folks take things the wrong way, sometimes the emoticons help, but sometimes they don't, and there is butt hurt. At any rate, I hope all is squashed and the show can go on.

[TFOGGER]

I like pie.

[Irving]

I have no beef with anyone. I was just trying to be an emissary between the site and you long enough for you to get a feel for the community and realize that no one was trying to chase you away. You seem to have come around and haven't disappeared, so looks like everyone can move forward now. Welcome to the site.

[jkoby27]

Haha that lower is pretty cool man. I wonder if a non functioning display rifle could be an sbr or if that would require a tax stamp even though it's non functioning and only for display?

[J]

I thought we banned chip?!?

[J]

Haha that lower is pretty cool man. I wonder if a non functioning display rifle could be an sbr or if that would require a tax stamp even though it's non functioning and only for display?

If it's not a rifle, no stamp. If it is, stamp required. He could throw a 7" bbl on it, and if it was unmachined, and therefore couldn't have a FCG added, no fowl.

BUT!!! If he has an SBR upper, and a functioning AR lower aside from the display, and no SBR lower, constructive intent would bite him in the ass since he could easily swap the upper to another lower and have an SBR.

NOW, if the upper was likewise non functional, could be legal again.

[jerrymrc]

I can say that there are other methods of protecting the aluminum but many know that the small area of the pin holes is prone to wear. I can also say that anodizing varies widely between MFG's. in Cerakote work your not looking to remove the anodizing only etch it for a good bond. There have been a couple of items that you could say "Annnnnd, its gone" before you blinked. And jkoby27. Do all us staff a favor and relax. [facepalm]

[SA Friday]

So, how many rounds does it take for one to wallow out?

How many have you seen wallowed out?

Not trying to pick on you, but you are invested in people NOT doing 80% lowers (lets be honest, you are involved in a store that does a lot of business selling stripped lowers or completed rifles), and you don't give any actual information in your post. You just say it won't work out that well.

You would initially think that, but not really. We are invested in selling parts. The more people who do 80% lowers, the more parts we sell. We have a complete shit profit margin on lowers, and they are only $100-$130 for a mil-spec good one from a reputable manufacturer. We don't even charge for background checks on them. I wished to god there was a way everyone could make their own and do an anodized finish for the same a regular lower costs. We would double if not triple our sales and even sell them. Sadly, it isn't so and we won't recommend or sell shit parts.

Lowers come a few types of aluminum's and production methods. 80% lowers use softer aluminums like 6061 or billet 7075. Both are used to help stop bits from drifting and chattering in whatever the home finisher is using to cut out the pockets and drill the holes. Forged 7075-T6 lowers (mil-spec) would be too hard for any mass marketed process to the average guy to complete without lots of machining problems. Additionally, ALL aluminum lowers are surface hardened through finishing treatment, usually anodizing. Even with the surface hardening, the trigger and hammer holes and the safety selector holes gets repeatedly galled by the steel pins and lever. Even the mil-spec lowers eventually have problems with the holes wobbling out. It takes a lot of use on the mil-spec lowers, but it's simply entropy. Now, toss in a softer aluminum and no surface coating and you have very fast destruction. I've seen 80% lowers with this problem in a thousand rounds. So you add KNS pins, great. It gets you another couple thousand rounds down the road. Now the holes are so sloppy, the hammer is starting to pinch into the BCG and other issues like slip off the sear or the safety doesn't engage tight enough to work. I've discussed this before in at least one other thread other than this. So far I've seen about a dozen with these issues. They are the ones that are getting shot and not collecting dust in a closet somewhere. I've seen about he same that were flat out milled wrong or finished wrong or even both. .5-1 millimeters off and you have a nice expensive paperweight. I hate seeing the look on guy's faces when they bring in a terminal mess.

[ray1970]

If it's not a rifle, no stamp. If it is, stamp required. He could throw a 7" bbl on it, and if it was unmachined, and therefore couldn't have a FCG added, no fowl.

BUT!!! If he has an SBR upper, and a functioning AR lower aside from the display, and no SBR lower, constructive intent would bite him in the ass since he could easily swap the upper to another lower and have an SBR.

NOW, if the upper was likewise non functional, could be legal again.

I would likely not use a real barrel. Probably just something from solid bar stock. I hadn't even thought about a fake SBR. I guess if it isn't going to be real or functional then why not make it look cool?

Perhaps I should start a thread looking for junk parts and see if I could throw it together cheap.

[ray1970]

Oh, and am I the only one who is wondering why J referred to birds?
[Neene1]

[SA Friday]

Just trying to get him to back up his assertions that 80% lowers don't work, since they actually do.
I'll grab pics on the next one I see and post them for you. They will work until the holes are terminal. Some of us shoot our guns. A safe queen AR 80% lower will last one a life time. Give it to someone dumping 20k round a year out of it and it's virtually worthless.

You know I seen a thousand or so AR's in the last year, right? lol.... Who do you think they take almost every one that doesn't run in the Denver area? Don't even get Firemoth started on these. He's been dealing with them since they first came out. This isn't new information, and it's not my opinion exclusively either. You don't have to believe me at all. You just have to shoot yours more often.

[J]

Oh, and am I the only one who is wondering why J referred to birds?
[Neene1]

Samsung did that. I assure you. It actually corrected to waterfowl before I edited and didn't notice. It's because I've been texting everyone how good the duck and goose hunting is gonna be at my hunting spots this year... it just learned waterfowl for every thing that sounded anything like the phrase.

No, not really. Good call ray. I done effed up.

[Grant H.]

I'll grab pics on the next one I see and post them for you. They will work until the holes are terminal. Some of us shoot our guns. A safe queen AR 80% lower will last one a life time. Give it to someone dumping 20k round a year out of it and it's virtually worthless.

You know I seen a thousand or so AR's in the last year, right? lol.... Who do you think they take almost every one that doesn't run in the Denver area? Don't even get Firemoth started on these. He's been dealing with them since they first came out. This isn't new information, and it's not my opinion exclusively either. You don't have to believe me at all. You just have to shoot yours more often.

Ah, good, you know my shooting habits. Well done, sir, I applaud you... Omniscience must be nice... It'd certainly make the stock market or lottery easier.


Nevermind... You have your opinion and information, and I have mine...

I'm going to go shoot my 3 rounds for the year.

[funkymonkey1111]

And that post would help how?

bo

[jkoby27]

Bait the members here and I will ban you myself.

Staff doesn't like school yard bs.

bo

[jkoby27]

Bait the members here and I will ban you myself.

Staff doesn't like school yard bs.

bo

Haha wow I wasn't trying to bait anyone I was just being the bigger person and being sarcastic to funky monkey who called me a bitch. Go ahead and ban me this place has showed it's true colors haha

[buffalobo]

Done.

[funkymonkey1111]

i was pleased to join the "bra" club with SA Friday, albeit temporarily

[Joe_K]

This shouldn't be a dick measuring contest to see who shoots more rounds a year. Most of us, myself included can't afford to shoot the amount of rounds it would take to wear out most AR-15's. But if you have the choice of a proven factory designed, machined, assembled, and quality checked component vs. a home made version which one will last longer?

If your priorities are keeping it off the FFL/ .Gov books, or simply the hobbyist desire to make your own Firearm (nothing wrong with this mentality btw) vs. Long term functioning and go to hell and back reliability then by all means go the 80% route.
Remove the emotion and look at this logically.

Velocitas, Opprimere,
Violentia Operandi

[KS63]

What happened to the OP? He ever get a clear answer to his question? Poor guy.

[Joe_K]

What happened to the OP? He ever get a clear answer to his question? Poor guy.


BCG required. If it was not, the people that sell 80% lowers would sell them that way. They would sell a LOT more of them
3rd post in nailed it.

Velocitas, Opprimere,
Violentia Operandi

[00tec]

What happened to the OP? He ever get a clear answer to his question? Poor guy.


3rd post in nailed it.

Velocitas, Opprimere,
Violentia Operandi

Great... now you make me look like an ass because I apparently cant type the difference between a background check and a bolt carrier group. LOL

[Great-Kazoo]

Haha wow I wasn't trying to bait anyone I was just being the bigger person and being sarcastic to funky monkey who called me a bitch. Go ahead and ban me this place has showed it's true colors haha


Done.


What happened to the OP? He ever get a clear answer to his question? Poor guy.


^^^Look ^^

[Grant H.]

This shouldn't be a dick measuring contest to see who shoots more rounds a year. Most of us, myself included can't afford to shoot the amount of rounds it would take to wear out most AR-15's. But if you have the choice of a proven factory designed, machined, assembled, and quality checked component vs. a home made version which one will last longer?

If your priorities are keeping it off the FFL/ .Gov books, or simply the hobbyist desire to make your own Firearm (nothing wrong with this mentality btw) vs. Long term functioning and go to hell and back reliability then by all means go the 80% route.
Remove the emotion and look at this logically.

Velocitas, Opprimere,
Violentia Operandi

Or have both... LOL...

It's the internet dude, I don't let emotions get involved. I just haven't seen any of the deformation that he is talking about, and figured I would share my experience. That way someone interested in trying it doesn't read only his comments and get turned off.

I've never said, nor will I, that buying a lower is a bad idea. That would be very hypocritical of me. I just haven't seen any actual occurrence of what SAF is describing.

But again, I shoot 3 rounds a year. 1 pistol, 1 rifle, and 1 shotgun. LOL. (My bank account wishes...)

[gnihcraes]

I for one have learned from this thread.

So someone has an 80% that they screwed up, took to a friend and had that bad hole welded back up. <-illegal I presume. Just like a friend anodizing it. Interesting stuff.

As for longevity of the 80%, I'd probably never wear one out, just as others have indicated. But it is something reasonable in price to goof around with and say I did some of the work on it and it's functional.

[colorider]

I learned as well. Actually learned that I have recently met somebody who is in major violation of federal law for processing a batch of 80% lowers for friends on a cnc machine.
Nobody on this forum.

[brutal]

Did you hear that knock on your door?

[Grant H.]

Reading this (https://www.atf.gov/file/11711/download), it's not a felony for an FFL gunsmith to accept a COMPLETED lower to be coated or assembled.

The ATF prohibits them from doing any of the work required to take it from a "non-firearm" casting/forging to a functional "firearm" (in the case of an AR-15 lower, this would be the milling of the FCG pocket, drilling the trigger, hammer, and selector holes, and milling the rear pocket). But there is specific allowance for them to work on a 100% frame/receiver.

There isn't a requirement for a serial number to have work completed on a firearm by an FFL gunsmith, because otherwise, many pre-1968 guns couldn't be serviced/modified/etc. They were never manufactured with a serial number, and I know for a fact that there are systems/methods in place for recording the non-serialized firearm in the A&D log, so as to stay within the legal constraints laid out by the ATF.

So, it looks like having them properly anodized is not actually a felony. Now, as has been stated, some shops are going to be resistant to this, so YMMV.

[Irving]

^^That is the way I always understood the law to be, hence my confusion with all this felony talk. What is the difference between anodizing and engraving a completed firearm?

[spqrzilla]

There is good reason to believe that the 80% lower will become a regulatory focus for feel-good gun control in the near future. So those who may wish to stay well back from the line are prudent.

[Great-Kazoo]

There is good reason to believe that the 80% lower will become a regulatory focus for feel-good gun control in the near future. So those who may wish to stay well back from the line are prudent.

Very true. You can see such legislation already in place in CA.

[68Charger]

The banned troll notwithstanding...

Just to take issue the statements that 80% lowers are always made from 6061, this is from tacticalmachining:
"These 80% AR-15 Lower receivers start as 7075-T6 forgings from the lead forge in the US and are fully machined to mil-spec tolerances. The operations left to be completed are as follows/ fire control group, trigger pin, hammer pin, trigger slot and the safety selector hole. These are our Gen2 80s and have the rear lug area cut out. This is a not an FFL item. This is not a complete receiver and still requires machining to be done. We have a copy of our ATF determination letter and our determination update stating that it is not a firearm."

I have personally machined these, and have not run into any issues (but used a small mill and end mills, not a drill press)... yes, they're hard for aluminum, but nothing my small mill couldn't handle.
Are there crap 80% lowers? hell, yes! are there crap 100% lowers? hell, yes! are there crap BCGs, barrels, LPKs, and just about every other part on ar15s? HELL, YES!!
welcome to capitalism! there will always be somebody trying to make a buck by undercutting quality.


ETA: you want a real challenging project, get some 0% forgings and look up Vader Spade's tutorial on machining it completely...

[Great-Kazoo]

The banned troll notwithstanding...

Just to take issue the statements that 80% lowers are always made from 6061, this is from tacticalmachining:
"These 80% AR-15 Lower receivers start as 7075-T6 forgings from the lead forge in the US and are fully machined to mil-spec tolerances. The operations left to be completed are as follows/ fire control group, trigger pin, hammer pin, trigger slot and the safety selector hole. These are our Gen2 80s and have the rear lug area cut out. This is a not an FFL item. This is not a complete receiver and still requires machining to be done. We have a copy of our ATF determination letter and our determination update stating that it is not a firearm."

I have personally machined these, and have not run into any issues (but used a small mill and end mills, not a drill press)... yes, they're hard for aluminum, but nothing my small mill couldn't handle.
Are there crap 80% lowers? hell, yes! are there crap 100% lowers? hell, yes! are there crap BCGs, barrels, LPKs, and just about every other part on ar15s? HELL, YES!!
welcome to capitalism! there will always be somebody trying to make a buck by undercutting quality.


ETA: you want a real challenging project, get some 0% forgings and look up Vader Spade's tutorial on machining it completely...

You even logic Brah ? ;)

[Grant H.]

The banned troll notwithstanding...

Just to take issue the statements that 80% lowers are always made from 6061, this is from tacticalmachining:
"These 80% AR-15 Lower receivers start as 7075-T6 forgings from the lead forge in the US and are fully machined to mil-spec tolerances. The operations left to be completed are as follows/ fire control group, trigger pin, hammer pin, trigger slot and the safety selector hole. These are our Gen2 80s and have the rear lug area cut out. This is a not an FFL item. This is not a complete receiver and still requires machining to be done. We have a copy of our ATF determination letter and our determination update stating that it is not a firearm."

I have personally machined these, and have not run into any issues (but used a small mill and end mills, not a drill press)... yes, they're hard for aluminum, but nothing my small mill couldn't handle.
Are there crap 80% lowers? hell, yes! are there crap 100% lowers? hell, yes! are there crap BCGs, barrels, LPKs, and just about every other part on ar15s? HELL, YES!!
welcome to capitalism! there will always be somebody trying to make a buck by undercutting quality.


ETA: you want a real challenging project, get some 0% forgings and look up Vader Spade's tutorial on machining it completely...

I had forgotten that the TM lowers were 7075-T6.

I had the same experience on the bridgeport, they were completely workable, and when paired with a standard mil-spec upper, they fit with all the correct dimensions.

I also, for the fun of it, did one with the http://www.80percentarms.com drill and router jig. It took longer, and I had to make smaller cuts, but the end result was just as functional, if not quite as nice of a finish where the milling was done.

[TFOGGER]

I'll just drop this here. Assuming one takes the thickness of the anodizing into account when machining, this might be an option. Not that I'm ever going to monkey with it, as I have more commercial lowers in the safe than I'm likely to be able to build in the foreseeable future...

http://www.caswellplating.com/anodizing-products/hardcoat-type-iii-anodizing-system.html

[SA Friday]

Reading this (https://www.atf.gov/file/11711/download), it's not a felony for an FFL gunsmith to accept a COMPLETED lower to be coated or assembled.

The ATF prohibits them from doing any of the work required to take it from a "non-firearm" casting/forging to a functional "firearm" (in the case of an AR-15 lower, this would be the milling of the FCG pocket, drilling the trigger, hammer, and selector holes, and milling the rear pocket). But there is specific allowance for them to work on a 100% frame/receiver.

There isn't a requirement for a serial number to have work completed on a firearm by an FFL gunsmith, because otherwise, many pre-1968 guns couldn't be serviced/modified/etc. They were never manufactured with a serial number, and I know for a fact that there are systems/methods in place for recording the non-serialized firearm in the A&D log, so as to stay within the legal constraints laid out by the ATF.

So, it looks like having them properly anodized is not actually a felony. Now, as has been stated, some shops are going to be resistant to this, so YMMV.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/does-gunsmith-need-enter-every-firearm-received-adjustment-or-repair-acquisition-and

Nope. Overnight, it goes in the bound books and they have to have an FFL. So, the COMPLETED lower must have the relevant information engraved on the lower to be entered. No info, it can't be kept. The owner has to stay with it. 80% shit boxes didn't exist before the requirement for serial numbers. They don't get a free pass as pre-68 guns do.

You are absolutely giving out the wrong information and you need to stop before some unfortunate person believes you. You don't have to believe me. Call the ATF: Industry Operations (303) 575-7640.

Shoot more, post less.

[Grant H.]

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/does-gunsmith-need-enter-every-firearm-received-adjustment-or-repair-acquisition-and

Nope. Overnight, it goes in the bound books and they have to have an FFL. So, the COMPLETED lower must have the relevant information engraved on the lower to be entered. No info, it can't be kept. The owner has to stay with it. 80% shit boxes didn't exist before the requirement for serial numbers. They don't get a free pass as pre-68 guns do.

You are absolutely giving out the wrong information and you need to stop before some unfortunate person believes you. You don't have to believe me. Call the ATF: Industry Operations (303) 575-7640.

So, apparently changing the finish is a manufacturing process, but only if it's not camouflaging... F'in bureaucrats...

Even the ATF agent I talked to said that didn't make any sense, but the rules state that Anodizing, Cerakoting, and bluing are manufacturing processes.




Shoot more, post less.

Says the guy that has 8x the posts in fewer member years... Well played...

Good grief dude, get off the shooting thing. You don't know me from adam, and you have no idea how much I shoot or not.

[colorider]

Did you hear that knock on your door?

He didn't make one for me. I met him at a shooting event and he mentioned to a group of us that he and some friends each got a lower and they completed them at a shop that had a cnc machine. They did 16 of them there. As far as I have read, that is a big no no.

[Great-Kazoo]

He didn't make one for me. I met him at a shooting event and he mentioned to a group of us that he and some friends each got a lower and they completed them at a shop that had a cnc machine. They did 16 of them there. As far as I have read, that is a big no no.

AND the less one talks about it. The less everyone Knows.

[OneGuy67]

He didn't make one for me. I met him at a shooting event and he mentioned to a group of us that he and some friends each got a lower and they completed them at a shop that had a cnc machine. They did 16 of them there. As far as I have read, that is a big no no.

There was a company in Brighton called High Plains CNC that had events in which you could purchase lowers and then purchase time on their CNC machine to complete the lower. They had an employee stand next to the machine and talk you through the process, but not touch the machine in any way. They believed they were within the law, but apparently ATF didn't see it that way and shut them down.

[Great-Kazoo]

There was a company in Brighton called High Plains CNC that had events in which you could purchase lowers and then purchase time on their CNC machine to complete the lower. They had an employee stand next to the machine and talk you through the process, but not touch the machine in any way. They believed they were within the law, but apparently ATF didn't see it that way and shut them down.

In part due to them charging for use of machine AND plastering the events all over social media [facepalm]

[68Charger]

In part due to them charging for use of machine AND plastering the events all over social media [facepalm]

True, but they were supplying the G-code to do the machining.. which ATF determined was the same as doing it.
Maybe somebody should send a few thousand letters asking for clarification? [facepalm]

[Great-Kazoo]

True, but they were supplying the G-code to do the machining.. which ATF determined was the same as doing it.
Maybe somebody should send a few thousand letters asking for clarification? [facepalm]

Any newer members not familiar with the "sarcasm" of the forum [Coffee]

[spqrzilla]

Any newer members not familiar with the "sarcasm" of the forum [Coffee]

Who is this "sarcasm" you mention, and does he shoot enough?

[Circuits]

So, the COMPLETED lower must have the relevant information engraved on the lower to be entered. No info, it can't be kept. The owner has to stay with it. 80% shit boxes didn't exist before the requirement for serial numbers. They don't get a free pass as pre-68 guns do.

Of course they do - you simply enter "NSN" for the serial number, as you would for any other legal firearm without a serial number. You are not "required" to work on non-serialled homebuilds, but nothing in federal laws or regulations forbids you from doing so, just your personal preference or business policies.

There is no legal distinction between an unserialled pre-68 firearm and an unserialled post-68 homebuild.

[Great-Kazoo]

Who is this "sarcasm" you mention, and does he shoot enough?


[Beer]