View Full Version : Protesters and YOUR rights , What are they in Colorado ?
Driving down I-25 you are the first few cars at the scene of a protect initiated by a group and they are blocking your path of travel. You are close enough to protesters and are able to maneuver your vehicle and are at the front lines so to speak.
Your nervous and afraid that this can escalate what can you do legally ?
The situations starts to escalate, Ranting, yelling and verbal threatening what can you do legally?
The situations gets explosive, sticks, rocks, are visible, people start kicking your car, spitting on it, jumping on the hood , your in fear for yours and your family's safety now. What can you do legally?
I'm interested to hear some rational thoughts on this. You always hear the statements like, "drive through them", "run'em over", "they get what they deserve" etc. but, little thought goes to what happens as a consequence to those actions.
I'm interested in hearing thoughts and how you may have mentally prepared for various scenarios.
Thanks !
Brett
Great-Kazoo
10-13-2016, 07:47
Since you're able to move the vehicle. Back the fuck up!
If you're unable to do so and the MOB engages you.
Brush up or read the C/R.S regarding Use of Deadly Force. YMMV
18-1-704. Use of physical force in defense of a person
1. Except as provided in subsections (2) and (3) of this section, a person is justified in using physical force upon another person in order to defend himself or a third person from what he reasonably believes to be the use of imminent use of unlawful physical force by that other person, and he may use a degree of force which he reasonably believes to be necessary for that purpose.
2. Deadly physical force may be used only if a person reasonably believes a lesser degree of force is inadequate and
a. The actor has reasonable ground to believe and does believe, that he or another person is in imminent danger of being killed or of receiving great bodily injury; or
b. The other person is using or reasonably appears about to use physical force against an occupant of a dwelling or business establishment while committing or attempting to commit burglary as defined in sections 18-4-202 to 18-4-204; or
c. The other person is committing or reasonably appears about to commit kidnapping as defined in section 18-3-301 or 18-3-302, robbery as defined in section 18-4-301 or 18-4-302, sexual assault as set forth in section 18-3-402 or in section 18-3-403 as it existed prior to July 1, 2000, or assault as defined in sections 18-3-202 and 18-3-203.
vectorsc
10-13-2016, 07:52
Anyone threatening your life without a legally justified reason (such as preventing you from committing a class a felony) is done.
I am not a lawyer and the lawyers i have consulted while teaching CCW were in other states. However, these laws are a fairly universal concept.
And yes, if you have to shoot a dozen protestors with your ar15 pistol you are going to get to go on a career ending media rape fest anus expanding locomotive oddysey.
But you and your family won't be all dead.
This is also one of the reasons i dont bash police when i try to open the discussion that our society could do better with policing. Maybe I can find a better way to do it in the future as I understand that its pretty nice to be able to stow your family-still-alive-tomorrow tools back where they belong because the SWAT team just arrived.
If I were the "front" car and the protestors were adamant about not allowing me by, I'd lay on the horn and not let off until they let me by, OR they started pounding on my truck, then I'd start driving because at that point, I'd feel threated. BUT I THINK a constant horn in their ear MIGHT convince them to let me by.
Zundfolge
10-13-2016, 09:19
Kazoo is correct. If you have reasonable grounds to believe you or yours will be seriously injured or killed, you have the right to use lethal force.
That said, you're in a multi thousand pound metal box, you don't need to mash the gas pedal down to the floor and do a burnout before running them all down while doing donuts. Put the car in gear, lay on the horn and start rolling forward slowly, gradually increasing speed but doing your best to not actually run someone over.
Kazoo is correct. If you have reasonable grounds to believe you or yours will be seriously injured or killed, you have the right to use lethal force.
That said, you're in a multi thousand pound metal box, you don't need to mash the gas pedal down to the floor and do a burnout before running them all down while doing donuts. Put the car in gear, lay on the horn and start rolling forward slowly, gradually increasing speed but doing your best to not actually run someone over.
I agree wit this, BUT if someone removes the glass between me and outside air, the pedal on the right goes down.
Kazoo is correct. If you have reasonable grounds to believe you or yours will be seriously injured or killed, you have the right to use lethal force.
That said, you're in a multi thousand pound metal box, you don't need to mash the gas pedal down to the floor and do a burnout before running them all down while doing donuts. Put the car in gear, lay on the horn and start rolling forward slowly, gradually increasing speed but doing your best to not actually run someone over.
Problem with this is what happens when, going slow, you don't have the ability to get over the bodies now stuck until your car? If you are going to risk hitting someone, then freaking HIT SOMEONE. The idea of trying to not hit someone is akin to saying "just wound them" or "why not just shoot them in the leg?" etc.
You are using deadly force by DRIVING THROUGH A CROWD, so don't do it stupidly and get stuck w/ a body high centering you and/or allowing the crowd to close in and debrain you.
HoneyBadger
10-13-2016, 09:46
1. Install OC canisters next to the headlights (but tucked away under the hood) that can be activated from the driver's seat. :D
2. Buy an extra car battery and and transformer. Turn your hood and fenders into an electric fence. :D
3. Put a REALLY LOUD speaker in your grill and blast Disney Princess music. If that doesn't pacify them, switch to something a little more offensive, like Toby Keith's "Courtesy of Red White and Blue". :D
EDIT: After some deep contemplation and self-reflection, I realized the answer was right in front of me the whole time: Play the National Anthem and they will stop everything just to kneel down.
4. Use a modified windshield wiper fluid system to spray elk piss (or something equally pungent) in a wide spray pattern all around your car. Make sure your external air vents are closed. :D
5. Keep a feral hog in your trunk and feed it a steak wrapped in dirty hippie clothes once a day. When surrounded by protesters, grab your cell phone, set it to video mode, and hit the trunk release. :D
6. TrunkMonkey. :D
7. Affix airbags (Takata is preferred) around the exterior of your vehicle. Trigger them from the driver's seat when your vehicle's movement is impeded. Probably most effective when combined with Idea #1 or Idea #8. :D
8.
Loudspeaker under the hood, and play really loud full automatic gunshots and screams.
9. Always travel in convoy with Davsel as the lead vehicle. Davsel will likely clear a path through the protest line.
I will update as more ideas come.
In all seriousness, amso's advice (https://www.ar-15.co/threads/158955-Protesters-and-YOUR-rights-What-are-they-in-Colorado?p=2021640&viewfull=1#post2021640) is pretty good legal advice. (http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Deadly+Force)
And Z had some pretty darn good advice too:
Well if you're going to plan ahead that much, maybe just stay away from "those" neighborhoods in the first place and you won't have to deal with it at all.
I have rights? The way things are going the only people with rights are criminals.
I might look for the group leadership and point my vehicle in their general direction.
I have rights? The things are going the only people with rights are democrat criminals.
FIFY
I just posted this in another thread, but I will redo it here for education.. IANAL - but:
Do the protestors have the ABILITY to kill or do serious bodily injury to yourself or another?
Is someone in JEOPARDY of being killed or being seriously harmed by protestors?
Do these protestors have the IMMEDIATE OPPORTUNITY, and power, to kill or seriously harm someone
All three need to be a resounding YES before you can even think about using lethal force. And again, can you CLEARLY articulate your rationale of those three things under intense pressure.
In the scenario above, you should also think about proportionality/disparity of force (e.g. you are in a 2000lb car and they have no defense). Would it be better to drive over a few vs. stopping and engaging multiple.
Reginald Denny slowed down and was stopped. Remember that, and remember he was in a vehicle which should have easily plowed through every single one of the folks who nearly killed him.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_on_Reginald_Denny
HoneyBadger
10-13-2016, 11:01
Reginald Denny slowed down and was stopped. Remember that, and remember he was in a vehicle which should have easily plowed through every single one of the folks who nearly killed him.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_on_Reginald_Denny
An active riot is very different than a line of protesters blocking the highway, but while they are very different situations, the latter can transform into the former in a matter of minutes. I'd rather be stuck with a line of protesters on the highway than stuck in Inglewood, Ferguson, or Aurora during a riot.
vectorsc
10-13-2016, 11:08
I just posted this in another thread, but I will redo it here for education.. IANAL - but:
Do the protestors have the ABILITY to kill or do serious bodily injury to yourself or another?
Is someone in JEOPARDY of being killed or being seriously harmed by protestors?
Do these protestors have the IMMEDIATE OPPORTUNITY, and power, to kill or seriously harm someone
All three need to be a resounding YES before you can even think about using lethal force. And again, can you CLEARLY articulate your rationale of those three things under intense pressure.
In the scenario above, you should also think about proportionality/disparity of force (e.g. you are in a 2000lb car and they have no defense). Would it be better to drive over a few vs. stopping and engaging multiple.
Great advice here. Only disagreement is that a crowd of angry and murderous protesters are in a force disparity situation with someone in a vehicle. If you stop, you are just a monkey in a cage for the neighborhood kids to poke at, and just as helpless. If you don't stop, you are employing a VERY effective lethal force mechanism that may result in the death of others.
That said, violent protesters actually attackign your vehicle combined with an inability to exit the area represent a lethal force threat to vehicle occupants.
http://www.activeresponsetraining.net/surviving-mob-attacks-on-your-vehicle
There are some materials on this subject, but not very many. Very few people are as legally compromised as someone trying to escape mob violence without being a government official. If you read the legal aftermath of the Reginald Denny case, it would be QUITE easy to say that even in 1993 a protester who beat you within an inch of your life and left you crippled had more legal protection than any person who might respond to being murdered with violence instead. I would have said we are less stupid than California in this matter, but we ARE Eastern California now.
Today it wouldn't surprise me if protesters could drive around with the dead corpses of the children of their politically unliked opponents and get only a hearty wrist slapping for it.
Zundfolge
10-13-2016, 11:33
I agree wit this, BUT if someone removes the glass between me and outside air, the pedal on the right goes down.
Well at that point, I'd draw and fire first. This will get many of the riff-raff to rethink their life choices.
Problem with this is what happens when, going slow, you don't have the ability to get over the bodies now stuck until your car?
This is why I said to try to make sure you're NOT running people over.
Remember your goal is escape, not a higher body count.
Also realize that it doesn't matter how right you are, you're going to get arrested and tried for this one so make sure you have a good lawyer and maybe get one of those personal liability insurance policies now.
If a pedestrian jay-walks into the street in front of your vehicle, and you hit him, you are more than likely to not be charged with anything.
What's the difference when a "protester" walks onto a highway?
Crosswalks in town may be problematic.
Hit your brights, lay on the horn, and floor it.
May consider peeing a little for later evidence of fear.
http://dailycaller.com/2016/10/11/anti-columbus-day-protesters-threaten-to-assault-driver-get-run-over-video/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iX0Qvk7YbnU
The driver will likely have a ready defense for his actions. In the video a protester menacingly warns, “I’ll tear you out of that car, you little f*ck.” Another video from a different angle makes it clear that a protester attempted to open the truck door just moments before it took off.
Reno police chief Jason Soto said his department has identified the driver of the car, but is still reviewing evidence and has made no arrests. Soto also noted that the anti-Columbus Day protest didn’t have a permit and therefore was acting illegally by blocking the street.
I have a 2500 turbo diesel...protestors would be wise to find a different vehicle to block in and harass.
vectorsc
10-13-2016, 11:41
Its the clear fact that politically some protesters are the second coming of jesus and their beating and killing of certain folks is clearly sanctioned.
Excellent video here: http://conservativetribune.com/watch-blm-protesters-block/
One cop's advice here: http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/01/minnesota-cop-run-over-black-lives-matter-protesters
Well at that point, I'd draw and fire first. This will get many of the riff-raff to rethink their life choices.
This is why I said to try to make sure you're NOT running people over.
Remember your goal is escape, not a higher body count.
Also realize that it doesn't matter how right you are, you're going to get arrested and tried for this one so make sure you have a good lawyer and maybe get one of those personal liability insurance policies now.
The problem with trying to not run people over is that you cannot control what others do. Quantity has a quality all its own. Me, personally, if surrounded by a bunch of people who could easily flip my vehicle or can quickly smash my window, I'm gunning it.
It's epically retarded that we should approach the modality of deadly force as different than another when substantially deadly force = deadly force.
We trained on this for situations in Iraq which only differed in that the people potentially blocking our path were Iraqis. The fact of the matter is, those approaching this like a vehicle is some true source of protection are not understanding how easy it is for this sort of situation to escalate in mere seconds. A crowd demonstrating violent intent has the means through #'s to affect a demonstrable intent.
DireWolf
10-13-2016, 12:02
I'll just leave this here as the must-have upgrade for just these situations :)
https://youtu.be/aLhWzMOccTg
In all seriousness though, I think that trying to plow straight through (no fishtailing through, however amusing that might be) would be far preferable to stopping and hosing them down, if for no reason other than media spin.....especially since it would be much easier to argue escape as a priority with the former option.....
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hurley842002
10-13-2016, 12:12
I have a 2500 turbo diesel...protestors would be wise to find a different vehicle to block in and harass.
I was just about to say, aren't most of the members here driving semi trucks..... Except Ridge of course.
Something like this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ukFAvYP3UU
Don't know why these drivers engage the protesters verbally and have their windows down. If they feel that their lives may be in danger, call 911 to explain the situation in as much detail as possible, record everything you can and hold tight. If the shit goes down, do what you must to survive.
Extremely fluid situation, and the range of responses so far has depended mostly on the imagination of whomever is posting. There is a Youtube video up right now where a person drives through a BLM protest line blocking a highway. No one injured, no property damage, and if the driver followed the advice of some of the suggestions here they would be rotting in prison right now. I'd find the video, but I'm unavailable all week.
hurley842002
10-13-2016, 12:57
Extremely fluid situation, and the range of responses so far has depended mostly on the imagination of whomever is posting. They're is a Youtube video up right now where a person drives through a BLM protest line blocking a highway. No one injured, no property damage, and if the driver followed the advice of some of the suggestions here they would be rotting in prison right now. I'd find the video, but I'm unavailable all week.
Completely agree.
Well at that point, I'd draw and fire first. This will get many of the riff-raff to rethink their life choices.
This is why I said to try to make sure you're NOT running people over.
Remember your goal is escape, not a higher body count.
Also realize that it doesn't matter how right you are, you're going to get arrested and tried for this one so make sure you have a good lawyer and maybe get one of those personal liability insurance policies now.
I was always taught, if you're in a vehicle, and someone presents a legitimate threat- drawing your gun, getting out, etc are useless, you have a 3,000lb deadly weapon that is as simple as point and press the gas. Best bet, and I'm not an attorney, but what I would do in the situation described by OP, the moment I feel in imminent danger of death or any bodily injury by the protestors, I will honk, show my intent that I'm not sitting still for them to do harm, then getting on the gas, driving through the protest and away from danger. Then calling 911 and letting them know what happened and that I will gladly meet them somewhere a safe distance from the protestors (who are probably very agitated now) and give full cooperation. But my primary goal at that point is getting off of the X and away from danger. Mob mentality is extremely volatile and is not something I even want to trifle with. You may or may not be arrested, as I've seen some cases where people have driven through these idiotic protests out of a legitimate fear, and were not arrested, charged or anything.
newracer
10-13-2016, 13:01
I would do what I could to move the vehicle without injuring anyone. But if I felt my life or anyone's in the car was in danger I would do whatever it takes to get out of the situation, including deadly force with the vehicle and firearms.
DireWolf
10-13-2016, 13:02
Extremely fluid situation, and the range of responses so far has depended mostly on the imagination of whomever is posting. They're is a Youtube video up right now where a person drives through a BLM protest line blocking a highway. No one injured, no property damage, and if the driver followed the advice of some of the suggestions here they would be rotting in prison right now. I'd find the video, but I'm unavailable all week.
Don't disagree at all (but still think the flame thrower would be funny as hell)....
I think the key to that, as someone had previously mentioned, is do what you need to do, avoid use of lethal force unless you feel it necessary (but don't half-ass it if it is), and be able to justify whatever action you took.....that said, it's nice to have options, particularly with regard to escalation of force....
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Extremely fluid situation, and the range of responses so far has depended mostly on the imagination of whomever is posting. They're is a Youtube video up right now where a person drives through a BLM protest line blocking a highway. No one injured, no property damage, and if the driver followed the advice of some of the suggestions here they would be rotting in prison right now. I'd find the video, but I'm unavailable all week.
Many drivers have "followed the advice of some" already.
Can you provide a link to any of them "rotting in prison?"
I am unable to find any so far.
Many drivers have "followed the advice of some" already.
Can you provide a link to any of them "rotting in prison?"
I am unable to find any so far.
If I'm on the jury, the defendant is safe.
Stopping and surrounding a vehicle with significant numbers, banging on a vehicle, breaking glass (to gain access to occupants) all demonstrate intent (imminent danger). That's not a protest but a violent mob that our ever-incompetent/evil (you pick) government should have broken up before it got to that point. Nor is it an escalation the driver caused merely by driving on a public road.
There are a number of people who believe in the space to destroy. Debatable, but if humans are the car, totally different.
That said, I personally would avoid such a scenario at nearly all costs less than the safety of my loved ones/self.
Many drivers have "followed the advice of some" already.
Can you provide a link to any of them "rotting in prison?"
I am unable to find any so far.
I can provide a link, later, of the person driving through the protest line to which I was specifically referring. In that situation, the protesters had successfully brought all traffic to a stop, but when the one vehicle decided to move forward, the protesters had to leave other parts of the line just to try to get in front of the vehicle. When the line of people blocking traffic is less than one person deep, good luck defending your decision to smash the gas and plow through the line. The original poster laid out a specific scenario of having your "path of travel" blocked and what your rights might be.
Predictably, many members let their fantasies run wild with a scenario out of walking dead where the road is blocked by bad guys 25 deep, all armed with weapons or something.
What are the chances that you'll be the first responder to a situation like that? What are the protesters yelling? Some people block traffic to draw attention to their cause. So just run over people yelling about more money for schools? A lot of people, including hot Dave, are having a difficult time differentiating between a protest blocking traffic, and a riot blocking traffic.
A lot of people are having a difficult time differentiating between a protest blocking traffic, and a riot blocking traffic.
This.
I used to work at a campus that had a main entrance off of a major street, with its own traffic light. One day the janitors' union or something decided to picket the campus. The ones that entered the campus got rounded up by private security, but most stayed on the public sidewalks and they couldn't be touched. They milled about in the crosswalk blocking traffic. Eventually police showed up and made them clear the crosswalk when the light for the cross street was green, but they still blocked it the rest of the time. If you would have plowed through that crowd of protesters out into the intersection I can't imagine an outcome for you other than jail. The protesters were not violent in any way; it's hard to claim that you were in fear for your life in your car because of people carrying protest signs and chanting pro-labor blatherings.
vectorsc
10-13-2016, 14:41
When person A is blocking you from leaving a restroom in conjunction with person B smashing you in the face with a tire iron where does person A get a pass just because they dont have said tire iron? Or because there werent 4 people blocking the door. Or 25?
I can provide a link, later, of the person driving through the protest line to which I was specifically referring. In that situation, the protesters had successfully brought all traffic to a stop, but when the one vehicle decided to move forward, the protesters had to leave other parts of the line just to try to get in front of the vehicle. When the line of people blocking traffic is less than one person deep, good luck defending your decision to smash the gas and plow through the line. The original poster laid out a specific scenario of having your "path of travel" blocked and what your rights might be.
Predictably, many members let their fantasies run wild with a scenario out of walking dead where the road is blocked by bad guys 25 deep, all armed with weapons or something.
What are the chances that you'll be the first responder to a situation like that? What are the protesters yelling? Some people block traffic to draw attention to their cause. So just run over people yelling about more money for schools? A lot of people, including hot Dave, are having a difficult time differentiating between a protest blocking traffic, and a riot blocking traffic.
I can provide a link, later, of the person driving through the protest line to which I was specifically referring. In that situation, the protesters had successfully brought all traffic to a stop, but when the one vehicle decided to move forward, the protesters had to leave other parts of the line just to try to get in front of the vehicle. When the line of people blocking traffic is less than one person deep, good luck defending your decision to smash the gas and plow through the line. The original poster laid out a specific scenario of having your "path of travel" blocked and what your rights might be.
Predictably, many members let their fantasies run wild with a scenario out of walking dead where the road is blocked by bad guys 25 deep, all armed with weapons or something.
What are the chances that you'll be the first responder to a situation like that? What are the protesters yelling? Some people block traffic to draw attention to their cause. So just run over people yelling about more money for schools? A lot of people, including hot Dave, are having a difficult time differentiating between a protest blocking traffic, and a riot blocking traffic.
Are we reading the same OP? situation starts to escalate w/ threats = if you cannot back out, freaking floor it! As I said before, quantity has a quality all its own. Mob mentality can quickly, very quickly, devolve into one nasty situation. The entire OP was an exercise in the abstract, i.e., a theoretical situation. Of course we have to fantasize (imagine) ourselves in the situation to even answer. But you mean to tell me that if you are surrounded by a bunch of folks yelling and threatening you that you're just gonna sit there while they whip themselves into a murderous frenzy? eek.
Driving down I-25 you are the first few cars at the scene of a protect initiated by a group and they are blocking your path of travel. You are close enough to protesters and are able to maneuver your vehicle and are at the front lines so to speak.
Your nervous and afraid that this can escalate what can you do legally ?
The situations starts to escalate, Ranting, yelling and verbal threatening what can you do legally?
The situations gets explosive, sticks, rocks, are visible, people start kicking your car, spitting on it, jumping on the hood , your in fear for yours and your family's safety now. What can you do legally?
I'm interested to hear some rational thoughts on this. You always hear the statements like, "drive through them", "run'em over", "they get what they deserve" etc. but, little thought goes to what happens as a consequence to those actions.
I'm interested in hearing thoughts and how you may have mentally prepared for various scenarios.
Thanks !
Brett
I don't care if they're holding hands on the freeway and singing about orphan paraplegic kittens.
Without a permit, they have no legal right or justification for blocking a public roadway.
They made the choice to break the law and place themselves in danger of being run down.
I guarantee the number of SJWs entertaining the idea would instantly decline after a few of them are flattened.
Instead, we roll up our windows and lock our doors and patiently wait until the snowflakes are asked to please move by the cops who are forced to waste their time coddling their precious little feelz.
Every state has provisions in place for legal protesting.
Blocking a public roadway without a permit is not among them.
Wish they'd start blocking train tracks.
Just because someone is illegally blocking the road doesn't mean you have free license to run them over. See Asmo's post. If they're trying to breach your vehicle? Sure, game on.
Are we reading the same OP?There were three separate, escalating hypotheticals posed in the OP.
Opps, didn't see you standing there - IN THE MIDDLE OF THE FREEWAY
Sadly that would probably fly. The dumb*** that T-boned me when I was riding a red motorcycle with DRLs on while wearing a red jacket claimed the same thing. He didn't even get a ticket.
GilpinGuy
10-13-2016, 15:46
Meh, nobody in their right mind would mow down a line of peaceful protestors. That would be murder, even if they didn't have a permit. Nobody would mow down a j walker on purpose (I hope).
The minute I feel threatened though, I'm getting out of there one way or the other. If inching ahead slowly doesn't work then the skinny pedal gets depressed more and more until it does.
There were three separate, escalating hypotheticals posed in the OP.
Right, but none of us have addressed the first hypothetical which was essentially benign; we've all addressed from being threatened and up.
Install OC canisters next to the headlights (but tucked away under the hood) that can be activated from the driver's seat. :D
But an extra car battery and and transformer. Turn your hood and fenders into an electric fence. :D
Put a REALLY LOUD speaker in your grill and blast Disney Princess music. If that doesn't pacify them, switch to something a little more offensive, like Toby Keith's "Courtesy of Red White and Blue". :D
EDIT: After some deep contemplation and self-reflection, I realized the answer was right in front of me the whole time: Play the National Anthem and they will stop everything just to kneel down.
Use a modified windshield wiper fluid system to spray elk piss (or something equally pungent) in a wide spray pattern all around your car. Make sure your external air vents are closed. :D
Keep a feral hog in your trunk and feed it a steak wrapped in dirty hippie clothes once a day. When surrounded by protesters, grab your cell phone, set it to video mode, and hit the trunk release. :D
I will update as more ideas come to me.
Trunk Monkey. [/thread]
http://youtu.be/_gERED8htKM
buffalobo
10-13-2016, 16:12
I'd let the wife get out and kick some azz.
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I know at least half of you here are redneck enough, myself included, to just roll some coal.
I don't care if they're holding hands on the freeway and singing about orphan paraplegic kittens.
Without a permit, they have no legal right or justification for blocking a public roadway.
They made the choice to break the law and place themselves in danger of being run down.
I guarantee the number of SJWs entertaining the idea would instantly decline after a few of them are flattened.
Instead, we roll up our windows and lock our doors and patiently wait until the snowflakes are asked to please move by the cops who are forced to waste their time coddling their precious little feelz.
Every state has provisions in place for legal protesting.
Blocking a public roadway without a permit is not among them.
Wish they'd start blocking train tracks.
None of what you said in this post is defensible in reference to this conversation. I'd feel comfortable saying that even posting this is bordering on negligence. If I still worked for an insurance company, I could provide you with plenty of examples of people suffering penalties from running over pedestrians or hitting vehicles that were blocking roadways. You clearly have no understanding of right away and I strongly encourage you to stop posting as if you do.
Please, nobody read any of the above quoted and think there is any applicable truth to what this thread is about.
Great-Kazoo
10-13-2016, 18:07
Since you're able to move the vehicle. Back the fuck up!
Right, but none of us have addressed the first hypothetical which was essentially benign; we've all addressed from being threatened and up.
You may have glossed over my first sentence in the reply. In any situation the first objective is "flight" look for a way out / resolve / remove from area of threat.
With that said, a Mob mentality can go from Kumbya to Kill #$%^ in seconds. The moderately peaceful assembly was just so until someone ;) said BURN THIS BITCH DOWN. The flag dropped and the rest is history.
IMO... in today's environment, a crowd gathering with what ever antagonistic posters (provided by Soros. Inc) they're waving with decent sized groups on the sidewalks and streets have 1 goal. That's not one of I'd Like To Teach the World to Sing in perfect Harmony.
None of what you said in this post is defensible in reference to this conversation. I'd feel comfortable saying that even posting this is bordering on negligence. If I still worked for an insurance company, I could provide you with plenty of examples of people suffering penalties from running over pedestrians or hitting vehicles that were blocking roadways. You clearly have no understanding of right away and I strongly encourage you to stop posting as if you do.
Please, nobody read any of the above quoted and think there is any applicable truth to what this thread is about.
*right of way
Guess my dumb self be back to nuke 'em then.
And, please, for the safety of all who are concerned, please, I implore you, do not take my advice. Ever.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmzuRXLzqKk
*right of way
Does not exist, at all, in the way in which you are inferring, with the exception of emergency vehicles with illuminated lights.
I've handled thousands of auto accidents in at least ten different states; and become more familiar with local traffic codes than I ever wanted. What experience are you drawing from?
https://cdn.meme.am/instances/68585657.jpg
GilpinGuy
10-13-2016, 19:24
C'mon man. If Killary tries some executive action gun confiscation (unlikely, but an example) and a bunch of gun owners stage a protest at the Capitol building and block traffic on Colfax, you'd be ok with some libtard plowing through them?
It can't be ok for you but not them.
C'mon man. If Killary tries some executive action gun confiscation (unlikely, but an example) and a bunch of gun owners stage a protest at the Capitol building and block traffic on Colfax, you'd be ok with some libtard plowing through them?
It can't be ok for you but not them.
Correct.
The difference being, I hope, is that gun owner protesters would stay within the law and not attempt to go head-to-head with a moving vehicle in the middle of the street.
I have no sympathy for people who do stupid things that voluntarily place themselves in danger and then cry when they get hurt - across the board.
Want to ride without a helmet, fine, don't cry when you're brain dead.
Want to base jump, fine, don't cry when you splat.
Want to dress up like a clown and jump out of the bushes with a bat, fine, don't cry when you get shot in the face.
Want to run out into traffic, ...
Correct.
The difference being, I hope, is that gun owner protesters would stay within the law and not attempt to go head-to-head with a moving vehicle in the middle of the street.
I have no sympathy for people who do stupid things that voluntarily place themselves in danger and then cry when they get hurt - across the board.
Want to ride without a helmet, fine, don't cry when you're brain dead.
Want to base jump, fine, don't cry when you splat.
Want to dress up like a clown and jump out of the bushes with a bat, fine, don't cry when you get shot in the face.
Want to run out into traffic, ...
On this point, we agree.
spqrzilla
10-13-2016, 23:26
I guess I'm the only one old enough to remember when "Go play in traffic" was considered a witty insult.
[Coffee]
PugnacAutMortem
10-13-2016, 23:32
This was my immediate thought. Should disperse any crowd pretty quickly.
https://youtu.be/JN-IV11coHo
Driving down I-25 you are the first few cars at the scene of a protect initiated by a group and they are blocking your path of travel. You are close enough to protesters and are able to maneuver your vehicle and are at the front lines so to speak.
Your nervous and afraid that this can escalate what can you do legally ?
The situations starts to escalate, Ranting, yelling and verbal threatening what can you do legally?
The situations gets explosive, sticks, rocks, are visible, people start kicking your car, spitting on it, jumping on the hood , your in fear for yours and your family's safety now. What can you do legally?
I'm interested to hear some rational thoughts on this. You always hear the statements like, "drive through them", "run'em over", "they get what they deserve" etc. but, little thought goes to what happens as a consequence to those actions.
I'm interested in hearing thoughts and how you may have mentally prepared for various scenarios.
Thanks !
Brett
Thanks for the replies, they have generated some interesting discussions and have helped me to form a base for my actions/reactions. I understand that each situation is different and each persons reaction to a particular situation may be different. The one thing that I personally need to keep in mind is that my response should equate to the threat I perceive. As much as I would like to make them pay with pain for interrupting my plans, it's probably not the best course of action unless there was a threat level that supported it.
Brett
vectorsc
10-14-2016, 08:58
I too would like to thank everyone for the discussion here. Its been good I feel.
I want to clarify something about my stance here as well with the hopes that others will think about this situation a little differently.
I don't give a rats anus about the protest. Who it is, where, when, why, how, whatever. Or about protesters stopping my vehicle.
I have had essentially the exact same situation happen to me in a non-protest fashion. Twice.
Both of them work related, and tied to very high crime neighborhoods, although the second one was more related to my stupidity than my work duties. I will simply state f east saint louis and kansas city.
The situation in both cases came down to the following two elements:
a) hamper vehicle movement of your target (in this case me)
b) commit violence to affect a desired outcome
Both are needed for the assailant to succeed. So my mind ALWAYS looks at this situation in that binary solution set fashion.
Restriction of escape vectors + violence = whatever response I happen to think is appropriate. The idea or question of attacker motive isn't in my brain at all. I don't give a shit if they are protesters or gang rapists or zombies or whatever. You are in danger and being trapped in an immobile vehicle while under assault is a life threatening situation.
Thanks for the replies, they have generated some interesting discussions and have helped me to form a base for my actions/reactions. I understand that each situation is different and each persons reaction to a particular situation may be different. The one thing that I personally need to keep in mind is that my response should equate to the threat I perceive. As much as I would like to make them pay with pain for interrupting my plans, it's probably not the best course of action unless there was a threat level that supported it.
Brett
Rucker61
10-14-2016, 09:14
Loudspeaker under the hood, and playback really loud full automatic gunshots and screams.
HoneyBadger
10-14-2016, 09:35
Loudspeaker under the hood, and playback really loud full automatic gunshots and screams.
Ohhhhh I think I'll add that to the list. [Awesom]
my friend Bentley has a train horn under his truck...
The clips before the cop are funny, but the fake cop is dumb https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUBBGxyAN4M
Zundfolge
10-14-2016, 09:49
Loudspeaker under the hood, and playback really loud full automatic gunshots and screams.
Well if you're going to plan ahead that much, maybe just stay away from "those" neighborhoods in the first place and you won't have to deal with it at all.
Great-Kazoo
10-14-2016, 10:00
I guess I'm the only one old enough to remember when "Go play in traffic" was considered a witty insult.
[Coffee]
Not at all.
Aloha_Shooter
10-14-2016, 10:05
I guess I'm the only one old enough to remember when "Go play in traffic" was considered a witty insult.
With some people, I think it was more wishful thinking than insult. I can think of a number of people who would've benefited society if they'd played in traffic when they were kids.
Been some good comments. That said, my DL instructor said three things. watch left, watch right, look for the out and be the out. That was in the '80s. Hasn't failed me yet. I know, this is a hypothetical but the basics still ring true. Situational awareness is still the key for staying out of these situation.
Beyond that, I've seen the vid of the SUV pushing through the crowd. Good for them but my experience may be different. That said, I will use every convenience at hand to get out of the situation. Contact with LE/peace officers, after the event, will be had.
Can't predict the outcome but I will be in the right.
That said, I do not see these "road block" protests as being useful.
RblDiver
10-17-2016, 16:29
Tell them it's false imprisonment?
http://definitions.uslegal.com/f/false-imprisonment/
HoneyBadger
11-15-2016, 11:21
Just resurrecting this thread because I needed to reference the ideas as I plan to drive through LA tomorrow... ;)
Great-Kazoo
11-15-2016, 13:58
Just resurrecting this thread because I needed to reference the ideas as I plan to drive through LA tomorrow... ;)
You can carry a firearm in a locked case in CA. just sayin.
https://www.ar-15.co/attachment.php?attachmentid=67988&d=1479243581
Did they get those clothes from mommy's basement?
Army of CA - LOL
LOL
Let them vent and pee their pants, when the time comes they'll die like the worthless sub-humans they are.
HoneyBadger
11-15-2016, 18:33
You can carry a firearm in a locked case in CA. just sayin.
Yeah, and that does a whole lot of good when the gun is locked up and the ammo has to be in a separate part of the car...
Either way, we made it. At one point there was a dude wandering across the highway and he was clearly drunk or mentally disabled. Just about caused a dozen accidents and luckily there was a state trooper about 4 cars behind me to wrangle him.
67991
Says the snowflake who follows Soros' orders.
I wonder how many of them know Soros willingly (and gleefully according to him) helped the Nazis persecute Jews?
clodhopper
11-16-2016, 07:58
Says the snowflake who follows Soros' orders.
I wonder how many of them know Soros willingly (and gleefully according to him) helped the Nazis persecute Jews?
unfortunately, they only know what they were told to think about and will militantly disagree with any contradiction to thier understanding, even if it is truth. While I don't view these people as subhumans like some might, I do pity them.
milwaukeeshaker
11-16-2016, 09:35
I guess you could throw the case at them. FN stupid.
Yeah, and that does a whole lot of good when the gun is locked up and the ammo has to be in a separate part of the car...
Either way, we made it. At one point there was a dude wandering across the highway and he was clearly drunk or mentally disabled. Just about caused a dozen accidents and luckily there was a state trooper about 4 cars behind me to wrangle him.
Pen flares, drawn weapons, 4 wheel drive and drive through the path of least resistance
Velocitas, Opprimere,
Violentia Operandi
Great-Kazoo
11-16-2016, 16:41
I guess you could throw the case at them. FN stupid.
Knowing how to work a combo lock isn't that hard. Especially if it happens to be set to the last number of the combo.
https://scontent.fphx1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15107429_1680441118934706_8792955265856816423_n.jp g?oh=1676af589c5192a098a4cbe2a4ef29a4&oe=58D4A68E
Got this in my email today from U.S. Law Shield
https://www.uslawshield.com/caught-in-a-demonstration-know-what-to-do-ahead-of-time/
Written by Michael Wisdom, Senior Contributing Editor, Texas & U.S. Law Shield
We’ve all seen the news reports of the mob scenes and riots across the country following recent police shootings and now the election. We feel that it is important that you understand your rights should you find yourself unintentionally caught up in such a situation where an angry mob blocks the roadway.
As a real-life example, we received a call to the emergency hotline from a member who was traveling and found himself and his family confronted by angry rioters in a major city out west. With the threatening mob descending upon his vehicle, the member turned around to make a hasty exit. However, as he was trying to get his family out of harm’s way, one screaming rioter charged toward the member’s car and was struck, landing on the hood before rolling off. Fortunately, the member and his family safely escaped the melee.
To figure out if the member’s act of running into a rioter was legal, we turned to Texas & U.S. Law Shield Independent Program Attorney Michele Byington with the question: Are you justified in hitting or “running over” someone in this scenario?
“The answer? It depends!” Byington said. “Don’t you hate that answer?”
Let’s look at whether an act of running down a rioter would be lawful as a justified act of self-defense.
To begin the analysis, she said we treat this situation just as we would any other use of deadly force in self-defense. Let’s start with some general concepts, and then analyze how the specifics of the law will apply in these scenarios. The concepts to focus on are imminence, reasonableness, and not being the aggressor.
Imminence. Prosecutors love to attack the imminence prong. Does a group of people blocking a roadway pose an imminent threat of death or serious bodily injury to you inside of the vehicle? Blocking a roadway, normally, cannot cause death or serious bodily injury to those inside the vehicle, much less pose an imminent or immediate threat. As a result, using a vehicle to “run them down,” or even to physically push them aside, is unlikely to be justified. However, if there is additional threatening conduct such as the protesters attempting to enter the vehicle, or say, charging toward you with a baseball bat, that is a completely different scenario. If you are placed in reasonable fear of imminent deadly force, you would be legally entitled to use deadly force in self-defense, including the use of your vehicle to neutralize the unlawful deadly force threat.
Reasonableness. What would be required to generate a reasonable fear of imminent death or serious bodily injury? The key here is that it doesn’t matter what your personal beliefs are if a jury would not believe that your fear was reasonable under the circumstances. There are extremes where your conduct will almost always be viewed as reasonable, such as attempts to set your car on fire or flip it over. On the other hand, under many circumstances, it will be extremely difficult to convince a jury that you acted reasonably if you use deadly force against protesters. One example would be injuring or attempting to injure a group of peaceful protesters who are merely blocking a roadway. If the protesters attempt, or reasonably appear to attempt, to forcibly enter blockaded vehicles, you will gain a presumption of reasonableness under the laws of many, but not all, states. You will also have a much better argument that you had reasonable grounds to fear an imminent attack with deadly force. Such conduct could include the smashing of windows or attempts to open doors. Also, you do not necessarily need to wait until the protesters have turned violent against your vehicle if you see it happening to someone else. Remember, you must have a reasonable belief from what you are seeing and hearing around you and not merely speculating about what might occur.”
Byington also noted, “Keep in mind, here in Texas, you may also use deadly force to protect a third party as long as you would be justified in using deadly force to protect yourself in that same situation.
If you intend to use your vehicle against a rioter, it will almost always constitute the use of deadly force – that is, force capable of causing death or serious bodily injury. Deadly force can be used in self-defense to the extent the force with which you are threatened also constitutes deadly force. In other words, deadly force can be met with deadly force, she said. If you are faced with anything less than deadly force, you will face an uphill battle in arguing that your actions were reasonable. To make matters worse, if you respond to a threat that is non-deadly in nature with unlawful deadly force, it would allow the other person to lawfully respond in kind with deadly force against you.
Not the Aggressor. Is the person seeking justification for the use of deadly force in self-defense a victim, or is he the aggressor? State laws may vary, but generally, the defense of justification is not available to the individual who starts the fight and does not stop to convey to the other person their intention to stop the aggression.
So, how might this apply in a protest or riot situation? Byington noted, “Say you are stuck for an hour in the middle of a protest and decide to ‘nudge’ one of these folks with your vehicle so that you can get out of the traffic snarl. If the otherwise peaceful protester then becomes violent, and you use deadly force to protect yourself, a prosecutor, judge, or jury could easily argue that you were the initial aggressor. You may lose a number of legal protections, and on top of that, appear like the aggressor during the investigation or trial.
Suppose you yell out “Sorry! Didn’t mean to bump you, it won’t happen again!” If the other person continues the assault after having been informed of your intention to stop, at that point you may regain the right of self-defense, although the protester will almost certainly argue that he/she could not hear you due to the noise of the protest.
A Few Practical Tips:
So, what should you do if you come across such a mob?
STOP. Don’t go any farther. Do whatever is necessary to change direction and get out of the area. If you are alert, hopefully you will see these masses of people far enough in advance so that you can completely avoid the situation, long before being surrounded.
Remember, you can’t legally run people over just because they are in the road. You may think the safest action to take in a situation like this is to keep moving, which may result in hitting people with your car to get them out of the way. That isn’t legal! It could easily be considered an aggravated assault, or worse! Even if people are illegally blocking the road, you will go to jail. It is that simple. Avoidance is key.
However, once the rioters attack you or attempt to enter the vehicle, the game changes, and your legal justification kicks in. With your vehicle surrounded so that you can’t escape and attackers trying to burn your car, flip it over, or attempt to drag you out of it, it is reasonable to assume that you will suffer imminent serious bodily injury or death. It is at this point you may use deadly force. In this moment of adrenaline and pure fear, you must keep your common sense. Do not get out and try to shoot your way out of the mob! You will quickly be overtaken and perhaps have your gun stripped from you. Instead, use your vehicle to get out of that situation by driving away from the surrounding rioters.
An additional point to remember is, should your vehicle come under attack, roll your windows down about half an inch. Experts say it is harder to break a window that is partly down than one that is fully closed. Turn off your ventilation system so you do not draw in any outside air in the event there is tear gas or smoke present. Further, if surrounded and moving slowly, you may want to take off your seat belt to allow a quick exit from the vehicle should it be overturned or set on fire.
“Once again, it is evident that your best course of action is to avoid these, often, pre-planned demonstrations altogether and drive away quickly should you come upon one,” she said.
The law is different in every state. For example, Texas has the “Castle Doctrine,” which gives a person the presumption of reasonableness if he or she uses deadly force against a person attempting to enter or entering their vehicle. Byington said, “It is a HUGE legal tool. Unfortunately, other states may not expand their Castle Doctrine to the vehicle [New Jersey]. With that in mind, I hope everyone can stay safe – and also stay legal! – if you find yourself in any protest or riot situation.”
To help Members in other states, we contacted U.S. Law Shield Independent Program Attorneys to get additional insights. Their comments appear below.
COLORADO
Independent Program Attorney Doug Richards offered this explanation on Colorado’s the law on self-defense. In the book Colorado Gun Law: Armed And Educated, co-authored by Richards, Stanley Marks, and Christopher Ferrero, Richards points out that “a person is justified in using physical force upon another person in order to defend himself from what he reasonably believes to be the use or imminent use of unlawful physical force by that other person, and he may use a degree of force which he reasonably believes to be necessary for that purpose.
“Importantly,” Richards adds, “a person is not justified in using any degree of physical force if he provokes the other person into the use of unlawful force with the intent of using that as a justification to cause the other person bodily injury or death.
Richards also points out that “Deadly physical force may be used only if a person reasonably believes that a lesser degree of force is inadequate, and he has reasonable grounds to believe, and does believe, that he or another person is in imminent danger of being killed or of receiving great bodily injury.”
HoneyBadger
11-30-2016, 17:23
#HighwaysMatter
http://dailyheadlines.net/2016/11/13-blm-protesters-sentenced-to-jail-time-for-blocking-highway/
Not in Colorado, but in Seattle, Washington. A man shot another man and has turned his self in, claiming self-defense as the reason for the shooting. The police released the shooter pending further investigation. Bare minimum, I would expect a civil suit if the prosecutor declines to file criminal charges.
http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/crime/police-release-man-arrested-in-uw-shooting/
That article is disappointing in that it talks more about the speaker at the event, then what actually occurred surrounding the shooting. Like usual, we'll have to wait for further information later.
Great-Kazoo
01-23-2017, 11:36
That article is disappointing in that it talks more about the speaker at the event, then what actually occurred surrounding the shooting. Like usual, we'll have to wait for further information later.
I gave up reading propaganda veiled as "news" some time ago. Now i go right to the comments section. Then reference the "story" to see who's bs'ing who.
13 hours ago
http://dailyheadlines.net/2016/11/13-blm-protesters-sentenced-to-jail-time-for-blocking-highway/
We need a new law to make it MORE illegal to have guns on a college campus. Obviously it isn't illegal enough.
You know.....maybe the gun was just undocumented, maybe we need to ban undocumented guns...a gun can't be illegal it's just an inanimate object!
Obviously they don't understand free speech at UW. Pretty sad that things have gotten to this point on so many university campuses that want to protect students from different viewpoints that might "trigger" them, rather than teaching them to be able to hear & analyze & discuss diverse perspectives.
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