Roof experts?

[DenverGP]

Been waiting on a refinance of the house to go thru, finally closed, and specifically took enough cash back to get a new roof put on.

I've got a few roofing companies that I've called that will be coming by to do an inspection and estimate. No particular damage, just a 25 year old asphalt shingle roof (with 3 layers) that it's time to replace. Have had some ice dam issues on the north facing side in previous winters.

Was reading about is ridge vents. Currently the house just has 2 gable vents. I've seen discussions about the positive side of ridge vents (when combined with proper soffit vents) keeping the attic space the same temp as outside, and so preventing a lot of ice dam issues and keeping the heat buildup in the summer down as well. I've also seen some people strongly against ridge vents due to concerns about blowing snow getting into the attic with ridge vents.

So are ridge vents common here in colorado or should they be avoided? If I don't want a ridge vent, what other options are recommended? The house currently has no soffit vents either, but it doesn't seem to be too hard to add those in to my existing painted plywood soffits.

Besides the ridge vent question, anything else you'd recommend that I ask for in the estimates?

Will all roofers install a drip edge on a new roof? Current roof doesn't have a drip edge, and we've got quite a bit of facia damage behind the gutters on the north side of the house.

I've also seen some kind of metal edging on the gable ends of the roof (not sure what the name would be, looks like the edging sticks up over the shingles at the gable ends). Is this common, or is it something I need to specifically request?

Any particular type/brands of shingles I should be asking for? I remember reading that some brands or types can give you a discount on insurance.

Thanks to any/all advice and tips.

[Great-Kazoo]

With 3 layers, it's a complete teardown, including new decking, etc. Think you have no choice with new roof as to vents, to be up to code.

[Irving]

Drip edge on both eaves and rakes is code, almost every where on the front range.

Ice and water shield is what you'll want to ask for on the eaves to resist ice damming, but any good roofer will include that on their estimates and strongly encourage it no matter what. In your city/county, it's probably required above 7,000 feet. You don't need ice and water shield over the entire roof, just in the eaves and valleys should be fine. IWS replaces felt and it is installed 24" in from your exterior wall, so the deeper the soffits and/or the greater the pitch of the roof, the more material is required. Since IWS replaces felt, make sure the estimate doesn't include the full roof square footage worth of felt AND the ice and water shield.

Ridge vents are very common already, and more and more are being installed. They do not have wind driven rain/snow issues that I've seen, and you are correct that you'll want soffit vents as well. Ridge vents also do a great job venting the roof, especially compared to what you have now. You could also consider a powered roof vent, some of them are even solar. A ridge vent is effective and you don't have to worry about it not working.

The other thing that helps prevent ice damming is increasing your attic insulation. Residential roofs are considered "Cold" roof systems, where there is a separation (the attic) between the interior temperature and the roof.

Many insurance companies offer a discount for Class 4 rated roofs, which usually means some sort of impact resistant when dealing with asphalt composition shingles. BEWARE, that right now, a lot of companies are selling Class 4 impact resistant shingles that are NOT meeting that rating in laboratory tests. The test for Class 4 is to drop a 2" steel ball, from 20 feet, twice on the same spot.

All that said, whatever Malarky is selling for class 4 seems to be what people are liking right now. I mean to say that contractors and adjusters are finding the Malarky roofs holding up to hail better than other brands in the same areas after a storm.

Code most likely requires solid decking, and if the house is old enough to have three layers, there is a chance you have spaced decking. Be prepared to pay for new decking, but you won't know for sure until all the other layers are torn off. If one of the layers is wood shake, you're going to pay for decking.

You'll want to fix the soffit/fascia in any areas that were damaged from ice damming when the roof gets replaced, but that will likely require detaching and resetting your gutters. What is the age and condition of your gutters? Were you planning on replacing them as well?

I apologize for any auto corrected spelling, I'm on the phone. Let me know if you have any more questions in the mean time. Also, will you be home today?

What Foxtrot said about vent per square foot is correct.

[DenverGP]

Drip edge on both eaves and rakes is code, almost every where on the front range.

Excellent, thats what I was hoping for.

And thanks for the info on the ice and water shield.

I know I need to improve the attic insulation, but not sure when that'll get done.



Code most likely requires solid decking, and if the house is old enough to have three layers, there is a chance you have spaced decking. Be prepared to pay for new decking, but you won't know for sure until all the other layers are torn off. If one of the layers is wood shake, you're going to pay for decking.


House isn't very old, build in 80. When I've been up in the attic, appears to have solid decking. House had 3 layers on it by the time we bought it in 95, and never had wood shake. And hasn't been a leak for the entire time we've lived in the house.

And yeah, planning on new gutters, at least on the front where the ice dam issue were happening.

Regarding the Malarky class 4 shingles, I'll see what manufacturers the roofers offer. Talked to my insurance agent and looks like we'd save about $300 a year on premiums getting class 4 shingles.

Thanks for all this info, very helpful.

[Skip]

Get enough passive venting to accommodate a house whole fan now (should you chose to get one).

We did one this spring and it will pay for itself (AC savings) in about three years. We had to go one model under the recommended airflow because we didn't have enough vents and cutting more would have voided the warranty on my one year-old roof! Huge hassle on the vents but very happy with the fan.

The manufacturer will suggest a size/airflow based on square footage. Here's the model we got...

https://quietcoolsystems.com/products/trident/

[MarkCO]

Irving gave you a great list of things to look for. I'll add a few.

1. Make sure the contractor pulls a permit and that you are present and questioning the inspector from the building department.
2. Ask for a copy of the contractors certificate of insurance before they do any work or you pay any money. Might even be worth calling the insurance company and verify the policy is in force. (I would). The last three roof inspections I have done for clients had some issues with the contractor, so better safe than sorry.
3. The issue of adding insulation is connected the the roof ventilation. If you have vents installed in the eaves/soffits, the extensions need to come above the level of insulation, so adding more after the fact, you don't want to then defeat those new vents. Even in winter, the airflow will be out of the ridge vents and snow infiltration is not an issue, provided they are properly installed and balanced with the soffits.

If you are going to add insulation and vents, a powered vent in the center of the roof structure with a humidistat and thermostat might be something to consider. They can save you a considerable amount on your summer cooling and will essentially become passive in the winter.

[Wulf202]

What irving and mark said.

Ridge vents are pretty. Turtle vents flow better and hold up un the wind.

I've switched back to turtle vents.

[DenverGP]

If you are going to add insulation and vents, a powered vent in the center of the roof structure with a humidistat and thermostat might be something to consider. They can save you a considerable amount on your summer cooling and will essentially become passive in the winter.

Any thoughts on adding a solar powered roof vent? Seems like it would be an easy addition during the new roof process.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Remington-Solar-25-Watt-1450-CFM-Black-Solar-Powered-Attic-Fan-SF25-BLK/203950489

[Irving]

Now that I'm in front of a computer again, the Class rating tests I was referring to earlier are the UL 2218, UL 2218-B, and the FM 4473.

UL 2218 is done with steel balls. A steel ball is dropped TWICE on the same spot for each test, and shingles are struck in the field, on edges, and on unsupported areas. After the two impacts, in order to pass for each particular class rating, the shingle must show NO evidence of tearing, fracturing, cracking, splitting, rupturing, crazing, or other evidence of an opening on either the top or the bottom of the shingle. Each area is inspected under 5x magnification. For the UL 2218 test specifically, the class ratings are as follows:
Class 1 -- 1 1/4" steel ball dropped from 12 feet.
Class 2 -- 1 1/2" steel ball dropped from 15 feet.
Class 3 -- 1 3/4" steel ball dropped from 17 feet.
Class 4 -- 2" steel ball dropped from 20 feet.

The other two tests use ice balls of the same size, with minimum weights, speeds, and energy (ft/lb). Looks like the ft/lb rating on a Class 4 shingle is 26.81 ft/lb.

Here are some videos of testing from Haag Engineering. This one is newer and has the best images.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7N4nZBzGcQ

I like this one of a 1 3/4" ice ball on an S-tile. They have another video where they do the same size steel ball drop test and it shatters the tile.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yq38H2vOjXw

Finally, take a minute to find out where your house is with respect to wind zones. You probably aren't in an area that needs more than 110mph rated shingle, but have this discussion with your roof contractor. He'll tell you what they are installing, and can show you the manufacturer recommended nailing pattern for installation in your wind zone. It looks like the wind testing can be found by searching for ASCE-7. If you can't get your contractor to walk you through the process on how they'll install everything, probably find a different one.

[Irving]

Here is the document for wind speeds: http://seacolorado.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/FINAL-COLORADO-FRONT-RANGE-GUST-MAP-2013.pdf
Looks like you can see Littleton on the map. You'll notice that it starts toward the foothills and that is because that is where the wind speeds really start picking up.

[MarkCO]

Any thoughts on adding a solar powered roof vent? Seems like it would be an easy addition during the new roof process.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Remington-Solar-25-Watt-1450-CFM-Black-Solar-Powered-Attic-Fan-SF25-BLK/203950489

My thoughts...I have been too lazy to do it on my own house as of yet. My gun room and shop are still not finished and we built the house in 2009.

Otherwise, yes, that is a good idea.

[DenverGP]

Just talked with one guy, he's suggesting class 4 Certainteed IR shingles. My insurance would be about $300 cheaper a year with the class 4 shingles.

He looked at the roof and said it looks like we've actually only got 2 layers, plus a starter course.

Ridge vents the whole way, along with adding soffit vents. IWS on the eaves and valleys, drip edge, and rake in all the necessary spots. He uses synthetic Feltex for all the rest of the areas instead of regular roofing felt.

He does the proper nailing pattern and other things to get certainteed's 130MPH wind rating, so we're good to go there, even though my area probably doesn't need that high.

New 5" seamless gutters plus replacing the damaged facia boards along the front of the house.

The proposal states 50% down payment and balance due after final inspection.


Got another company coming tomorrow for another proposal.

[newracer]

It is my understanding that in most areas you cannot have multiple layers any longer.


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[Irving]

I don't think he's considering an overlay, just reporting how many layers. As to newracer's comment, it is true that most cities on the front range are down to a single layer of roofing in the building code.

Before I forget, when are you planning on installing this roof? This time of year, I'd go for the hottest day you can. Most manufacturers state their products can be installed at 40F and above, but I'd try to stay in the 70s. If it's too cold and the shingles don't adhere well before the winter, then they are more likely to fill with debris over the winter, then they'll never adhere correctly. Some roofers will tell you that it will be fine the next summer, but that is a lot of months of freeze and thaw cycles to risk in my opinion.

I always told my insureds to never make a down payment, and avoid companies that asked for a down payment. None of this is custom work where things need to be special ordered; they just go pick it up at the roof supply warehouse and get it on the roof. That said, I don't know if it's any different without insurance involved. Personally, I wouldn't pay them until the roof was on and passed inspection.

What kind of metal for the gutters? Aluminum or steel with the Galvalume coating? It doesn't matter, I'm just curious. Steel holds up better to hail of course, and the Galvalume should resist longer to rusting that regular galvanized. All that said, hail just puts dents in metal and won't affect the function of the gutters, so it hardly matters either way.

[colorider]

This all sounds really expensive without insurance paying for it. No way of getting an insurance claim?

[DenverGP]

This all sounds really expensive without insurance paying for it. No way of getting an insurance claim?

nope, roof is about 24 years old, so even if we did have a claim, insurance company wouldn't be paying too much of it due to depreciation. We did secretly hope for a nasty hail storm in our area this summer.... never happened.

[DenverGP]

I don't think he's considering an overlay, just reporting how many layers.

Right, all the existing roof will be ripped off down to the decking.



Before I forget, when are you planning on installing this roof?

Current plan was ASAP, which from the first quote would be around end of november....



I always told my insureds to never make a down payment, and avoid companies that asked for a down payment. None of this is custom work where things need to be special ordered; they just go pick it up at the roof supply warehouse and get it on the roof. That said, I don't know if it's any different without insurance involved. Personally, I wouldn't pay them until the roof was on and passed inspection.


Yeah, I had always heard similar... not really comfortable about that part. We'll see what the other companies have in their proposals.



What kind of metal for the gutters?

I believe they were quoting me for aluminum.

[Irving]

If you have replacement cost coverage, depreciation doesn't matter. A lot of companies aren't writing replacement policies on roofs in Colorado though.

[DenverGP]

If you have replacement cost coverage, depreciation doesn't matter. A lot of companies aren't writing replacement policies on roofs in Colorado though.

Well, in any case, the roof doesn't need replacement due to a weather event, but rather due to ice-damming in one section, and just the age of the roof. It'll be pricey, but considering we've had the same roof for over 20 years, I think we're getting our moneys worth.

[DenverGP]

Well, another roofer out today, definitely thinks we should call in the insurance adjuster to check. He was able to show me several shingles that have holes blown almost completely thru them, able to spot a couple dozen shingles with pretty obvious hail impact damage...

So we'll be calling the insurance company, figure they might at least cover some part of the cost.

[Irving]

I can look at it for you as well.

[DenverGP]

Adjuster from USAA came by a couple days ago, looks like they are paying for a whole new roof, along with new paint on one side of the house, and a new roof for our shed (I didn't ask about this, or even care about it). He said they won't cover new gutters, but will pay to remove and re-install them due to the way they are mounted, and the roofer said that amount would cover new gutters.

Several pieces of the wood panel siding will need to be replaced due to rot, but adjusted said it couldn't be tied directly to hail, so looks like it's on us to pay for that. One piece of the siding on the roof side of the chimney needs to be replaced, but I'm not sure the right way to handle that along with the new roof.... should I get the piece of siding replaced first, then have the roofers do their thing? Not sure how it works with the flashing, etc. The roofers I've talked to just say they "have a guy for that kind of work", but doesn't sound like he's actually part of their company.

So now I'll be getting written estimates from the couple roofing companies we liked best. All are quoting us class 4 IR shingles. One spec'd GAF Armorshield II, another recommended Certainteed Northgate, both are "SBS" style shingles. I asked about Malarkey Legacy, but they said they were a noticable $$$ increase over either of the other two.

All will be putting some increased venting on the roof, one planned ridge vent, while the other 2 don't like ridge vent on my roof due to low slope, and just suggested turtle vents and/or a solar powered vent.

[3beansalad]

GAF has a roof for troops rebate if you are prior service.



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[Irving]

Siding should go over the step flashing installed at the chimney, so you can do the roof first.