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Mick-Boy
11-19-2016, 01:56
Hopefully not a news flash to the membership, but this topic seems to come up pretty regularly on FB and I thought this was worth passing along. Modern defensive ammunition is a far cry from what it was even 20 years ago. Yet there is still a lot of incorrect information that gets passed around online. #sciencematters




http://www.activeresponsetraining.net/handgun-stopping-power-science-vs-40-years-of-experience

Written by Greg Ellifritz


Most gunwriters are idiots. There. I’ve said it.

The majority are writers who have an interest in shooting. They aren’t shooters who have an interest in writing. There is a big difference between those two types of people. Some gunwriters (like Dave Spaulding and Massad Ayoob) are true experts in their field. Most are not. I’ve had several well known gunwriters as students over the years and I’ve been universally unimpressed with their performance.

The big problem occurs when new shooters look to the gunwriters as “experts” and actually pay attention to what they write. The bad information starts to spread like a disease.

Yesterday I saw an article written by a fairly well-published gunwriter that made me want to strangle someone. The article was titled “The “Center Mass” Myth and Ending a Gunfight”. It was written by Jim Higginbotham. I’ve never met the man, nor do I know anything about him. He may be a perfectly nice fellow with only the best intentions, but the horseshit he spouts is likely to get someone killed.

Read the article for yourself (linked above). It starts out pretty good, dispelling a lot of the common myths about the “one shot stop.” Then it devolves into utter nonsense.

The author starts down a bad path when he writes:

“A famous Colonel Louis LeGarde once wrote what is considered “the” book on gunshot wounds. 65% of his patients shot through the lungs – with rifles! – survived with the predominant treatment being only bed rest!”

I have the book he mentions. Most shooters have never heard of it. “The” book on gunshot wounds was published in 1916! The author doesn’t mention that! Do you think ballistic technology might have improved a little bit in the last 100 years? Please don’t think that if you are shot in the lungs with a modern handgun bullet, you can just lay around in bed for awhile and be fine. The predominant treatment in 1916 WAS bed rest….BECAUSE THEY DIDN’T HAVE THE MEDICAL TECHNOLOGY TO FIX THE DAMAGE!

When a writer uses 100-year old research (mostly done by shooting dead cows) to support his pet theory, I get a little worried. The article then got even worse…

His next statement is absolutely baffling. He writes:

“If you hit the heart, 3 or 4 expanded 9mms will do about what a .45 expanding bullet will do or one might equal .45 ball.”

Really? Someone can’t do math. He seems to think that one expanded 9mm bullet is about the same as a .45 ball round. He also thinks that it takes 3-4 expanding 9mm bullets to equal the effects of one expanding .45 bullet. Has he ever done any ballistic testing at all? Let’s look at the tables:


Law Enforcement - Federal Premium LE, Speer LE, BLACKHAWK!, Eagle - Load Comparison 2013-06-25 10-53-20


This a screen capture from Federal’s Wound Ballistic Load Comparison site. Look for yourself. Using one of the best rounds on the market (the Federal HST), I compared the gelatin results for the 147 grain 9mm load and the 230 grain .45acp load. Both had exactly 12 inches of penetration. The 9mm expanded to .85″. The .45 expanded to .98″.

Presumably the .45 ball does not expand and remains .45″ in diameter. How does .45 = .85? It doesn’t. And how do three or four projectiles measuring .85″ equal the damage created by a single projectile that expands to .98″. The math just doesn’t work out. But if a new shooter didn’t know where to go to find the true facts, he ends up believing this gunwriter’s “40 years of experience”.

The final straw was when the author points out his “general formula” for predicting how many rounds it takes to stop an attacker. Here it is:

2-3 hits with a .45

4-6 with a .40

5-8 with a 9mm

Did he just make this shit up? He doesn’t mention where he gets his data. It just comes from “40 years of observation”. I don’t know what he’s observing, but it isn’t real life!

I studied and documented nearly 1800 shootings and I have the real numbers for these calibers. Average number of rounds before incapacitation:


.45= 2.08

.40= 2.36

9mm= 2.45


You can see the report on my study HERE. Not quite the same, huh? How many uneducated people are going to believe the horseshit this author makes up just to sell articles? How many of those beliefs will get someone killed?

I don’t care what you carry for self defense. My research shows that there really isn’t much of a difference at all between the service caliber handguns. Pick what you shoot well, not what a misinformed gunwriter tells you that you need.

As I’ve stated before…choose your “experts” wisely. Your life depends on your decision!

The Rat
11-19-2016, 06:40
Good article, thanks for passing that along.

3beansalad
11-19-2016, 07:07
Thanks for sharing, and knowing how quickly tech advances I'm interested to see what has changed in the 3 years since this was written.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

ray1970
11-19-2016, 08:28
But everybody knows a shot in the arm with a 45ACP is almost instant death and two rounds through the heart with a 9mm is likely easily survivable.

Jonsey
11-19-2016, 09:12
Thank you for sharing this information. I have been curious how the different calibers compared in actual stopping power and so far had not found anything that satisfied me.

CS1983
11-19-2016, 09:29
9mm is more than capable. Has Jim never seen the part in Indiana Jones where he kills like 4 Nazis at once with a Luger? [AR15]

https://youtu.be/2tGDSAs_uU4?t=3m24s

But seriously though, Jim H's article is from 2010 (https://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/the-center-mass-myth-and-ending-a-gunfight-triggernometry/), and it's got some assertions. I'd be interested in a counter to those assertions. However Jim freely asserts in his article and what can be freely asserted can be freely denied (Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur).

Irving
11-19-2016, 09:51
Will timed article for me as I was recently having this discussion with someone and struggling to articulate why I felt that most carry rounds were pretty close to the same in performance.

cstone
11-19-2016, 10:35
Caliber Wars SMH, will they never end?

Handguns suck but we carry them because the populous isn't ready for the totting of long guns on a regular basis.

I'm adding "stopping power" to the words that make me cringe thread. A semi at 20 miles per hour, striking more than 50% of an adult has "stopping power." Bullets are light and fast, heavier and slower, or somewhere in between. They punch holes in things they hit and they do nothing when they miss. Like everyone else here, I need more practice to insure that regardless of the bullet type I shoot, they need to punch holes where I want them to as quickly and as often as needed for any given situation.

Be safe.

Irving
11-19-2016, 10:38
I tried looking for some Youtube videos of Semi-truck vs. Ballistic gelatin, but couldn't find any.

cstone
11-19-2016, 10:47
There wasn't anything left to cut open and reveal a wound track.

Think Godzilla vs Bambi. Short and sweet.

ray1970
11-19-2016, 11:43
Someone needs to do a study to determine the stopping power of pistol whipped with a jammed Beretta m92 vs pistol whipped with an unloaded colt 1911.

I'd guess either would be more effective than pistol whipping someone with a Glock.

CS1983
11-19-2016, 11:48
I'd guess either would be more effective than pistol whipping someone with a Glock.

If the Glock is stippled it could cause an abrasion which stuns the attacker long enough to escape (an act made easier by not carrying the weight of a metal frame).

TFOGGER
11-19-2016, 11:53
Someone needs to do a study to determine the stopping power of pistol whipped with a jammed Beretta m92 vs pistol whipped with an unloaded colt 1911.


I'm guessing the M92 and the 1911 would do comparable damage if loaded into a cannon and fired at the enemy, Civil War style...

cstone
11-19-2016, 12:16
I'm guessing the M92 and the 1911 would do comparable damage if loaded into a cannon and fired at the enemy, Civil War style...

Estimating the airspeed velocity of an unladend M92 vs a 1911?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=liIlW-ovx0Y

Rucker61
11-19-2016, 15:48
Someone needs to do a study to determine the stopping power of pistol whipped with a jammed Beretta m92 vs pistol whipped with an unloaded colt 1911.

Superman would shrug off 38 caliber bullets but duck a thrown snub nose. if it scares Superman , it's good enough for me.

ray1970
11-19-2016, 15:58
Superman would shrug off 38 caliber bullets but duck a thrown snub nose. if it scares Superman , it's good enough for me.

I hadn't thought about that. I might just start carrying an empty revolver to hurl at attackers.

CS1983
11-19-2016, 16:02
I hadn't thought about that. I might just start carrying an empty revolver to hurl at attackers.

Just designate yourself and the area around you a gun-free zone.

ray1970
11-19-2016, 16:24
Just designate yourself and the area around you a gun-free zone.

That's just too simple.

Plus, I'd have to wear a sign so evil doers would know. And that just seems like a pain.

Bailey Guns
11-19-2016, 18:20
I'm adding "stopping power" to the words that make me cringe thread.

Agreed. Wholeheartedly.

But it's better than "knockdown power" when discussing handgun calibers.

brutal
11-19-2016, 19:44
http://www.relatably.com/m/img/blond-memes/11201648_986459561365466_727268772_n.jpg

https://static2.fjcdn.com/comments/It+s+a+joke+_31ff1a0f6d59e191556d47b744bfdec8.jpg
http://i1166.photobucket.com/albums/q611/jsp1219/214C84E1-CBAE-41F9-BB2A-E55878F4DD14.jpg

https://cdn.meme.am/cache/instances/folder227/500x/60503227.jpg

Delfuego
11-19-2016, 19:49
Thanks Mick. I am glad to see good people still contributing to this forum.

fred.lombardo102
11-21-2016, 07:24
Hopefully not a news flash to the membership, but this topic seems to come up pretty regularly on FB and I thought this was worth passing along. Modern defensive ammunition is a far cry from what it was even 20 years ago. Yet there is still a lot of incorrect information that gets passed around online. #sciencematters
Very good article. My own experience with handguns has taught me a lot. There's no substitute for experience. Thanks for posting.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

bczandm
11-21-2016, 07:44
Great article and thanks for posting. I remember years ago reading an article that people who where shot at would go down, feeling the pain from the bullet hitting only to find they had not been hit. In one case (a cop in Chicago if I remember right) got in a shoot out and won, but went down and did not realize he was NOT hit till after the paramedics showed up and could not find a wound.

I think everyone gets something different from these studies, I am always amazed at how well the .22's seem to do. Lot's of variables of course but the little .22 seems to do much better than I'd expect.

Great-Kazoo
11-21-2016, 10:10
Great article and thanks for posting. I remember years ago reading an article that people who where shot at would go down, feeling the pain from the bullet hitting only to find they had not been hit. In one case (a cop in Chicago if I remember right) got in a shoot out and won, but went down and did not realize he was NOT hit till after the paramedics showed up and could not find a wound.

I think everyone gets something different from these studies, I am always amazed at how well the .22's seem to do. Lot's of variables of course but the little .22 seems to do much better than I'd expect.

One who practices with a 22 is far superior to one who doesn't with a 45.

Erni
11-21-2016, 11:54
A looong time ago I picked up a hunting magazine and it featured an article about bear being taken with handguns. A lot of the guns were about 9mm or so, but I cant recall many details. Wish I could find it and post some better detail.

ray1970
11-21-2016, 15:17
https://www.americanhunter.org/articles/2016/8/10/alaska-outfitter-defends-fishermen-from-raging-grizzly-with-9mm-pistol/

cstone
11-21-2016, 19:11
S&W 3953 carries 8+1 and he hit the bear six times and had one left in the gun. Two misses and he was within 8 feet shooting at a target larger than most big men. Two other no-shoot targets within range and no one but the bear was hurt. We should all consider ourselves this lucky given the circumstances and outcome.

I also noted that he normally carries a .44 Magnum, and has for the past 25 years.

Use what you have and pray for the best outcome possible.

Be safe.

kpp80202
11-23-2016, 15:29
Great article and discussion. I agree about all modern, high performance 9mm, .40, 10mm, and .45 ACP service rounds being similar in performance, with by far the most important variable being placement. However, that doesn't stop me from wanting more than one of each...

Mick-Boy
11-24-2016, 09:52
"Shoot them until they change shape or catch fire" - Pat Rogers

At the very basic level, (When I'm teaching privates) we kill people with guns by hitting the plumbing or the electrical. The electrical (brain stem) works faster but it's much harder to hit. The plumbing is easier to hit but can take a frustraiting amount of time to work. The important thing is poking as many holes in the important bits as you can. Solid hits with the ability to make rapid follow up shots is where you make your money.

cstone
11-24-2016, 10:21
The money shot? [LOL]

Shooter45
11-24-2016, 12:22
While the advancement in bullet technology has expanded greatly the past 10 years, specifically with bonded projectiles being compatable with pistols, there is stil a huge difference in pistol vs rifle effects. Pistols poke holes and rifles blow holes. The best caliber is what can be shot accurately and consistently to stop a threat. Every person will react differently when shot based on angles, shot placement, personality, along with drugs or alcohol.

kpp80202
11-24-2016, 12:31
No doubt rifle beats handgun.

Jonsey
11-24-2016, 14:28
Wow. Wouldn't that be the day when we all walk around with our rifles slung to our backs?

HoneyBadger
11-25-2016, 20:48
Thanks for posting, Mick Boy. Professionally writing about anything these days is much easier than actually becoming an expert in the subject matter. Crap like this just makes people terribly mis-informed.