View Full Version : Denver PD Fined for Declining Non US Citizens.
http://bluelivesmatter.blue/denver-sheriffs-department-fined/
“The Justice Department’s investigation found that from approximately Jan. 1, 2015, until approximately March 23, 2016, the Denver Sheriff Department discriminated based on citizenship status by requiring applicants for deputy sheriff positions to be U.S. citizens and publishing job postings with U.S. citizenship requirements, in violation of the Immigration and Nationality Act (INA). The INA’s anti-discrimination provision prohibits employers from limiting jobs to U.S. citizens except where the employer is required to do so by law, regulation, executive order or government contract. The Denver Sheriff Department was not subject to one of the INA’s exceptions.”
The article says its common for the US citizen requirement for LE jobs but I have no clue. It seems it would make sense but who knows. Please delete if this is inaccurate/moot.
Don't deputies and such have to pass a background check?
I imagine in this messed up world if one were a wetback one could check a box marked wetback and TPTB would overlook the fact that mr. wetback is a criminal and give the wetback a gun so the wetback could shoot US citizens and defend other criminals.
ClangClang
11-22-2016, 10:42
Don't deputies and such have to pass a background check?
I imagine in this messed up world if one were a wetback one could check a box marked wetback and TPTB would overlook the fact that mr. wetback is a criminal and give the wetback a gun so the wetback could shoot US citizens and defend other criminals.
Talking like that just makes you seem like a mouth breathing ignoramus. People should have the common decency to not openly sling around racial pejoratives. Shameful.
Talking like that just makes you seem like a mouth breathing ignoramus. People should have the common decency to not openly sling around racial pejoratives. Shameful.
Being an illegal alien is no more racial than being a drunk driver.
But it is OK for you to throw pejoratives at me.
buffalobo
11-22-2016, 10:59
Don't deputies and such have to pass a background check?
I imagine in this messed up world if one were a wetback one could check a box marked wetback and TPTB would overlook the fact that mr. wetback is a criminal and give the wetback a gun so the wetback could shoot US citizens and defend other criminals.
Talking like that just makes you seem like a mouth breathing ignoramus. People should have the common decency to not openly sling around racial pejoratives. Shameful.
Both over the top, knock it off.
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The reason this is an issue is because there are a lot of people that are here legally, that are not citizens. Denver isn't trying to eliminate hiring illegals, as that doesn't need any special exemptions. You can be here legally for your entire life, own property, pay taxes, buy guns, etc but not be a citizen. So the question is why Denver PD would restrict an entire group of people from employment just based on citizenship. Denver PD was fined for having an unnecessary restriction.
Knew a few guys who got their citizenship while in the Army. Not sure why a PD would be a problem for a non-citizen.
My favorite immigrant was the Albanian mortarman. His PSG was lazy about CIB citations, and cited him based on an incident he was not at in order to not have to do as many write-ups, despite having been at another incident which qualified him, so he refused to accept the award until it was fixed.
2nd favorite was the Polish dude in our Scout platoon. He earned the nickname "Polish Assassin" because in the invasion he took out a Bongo truck at 2km with the Mk19, with one shot. He married a Colombian. I couldn't understand either one of them and have no idea how they understood each other.
DireWolf
11-22-2016, 11:17
I'm vehemently against the idea of any non-citizen performing any LE function that carries with it powers of arrest, etc., for any number of what should be brain-dead-obvious reasons...Non-citizens (legal) in military, "mall ninja security" jobs, etc. - no problem....
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What are the brain dead obvious reasons?
I'm vehemently against the idea of any non-citizen performing any LE function that carries with it powers of arrest, etc., for any number of what should be brain-dead-obvious reasons...Non-citizens (legal) in military, "mall ninja security" jobs, etc. - no problem....
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But you're OK with non-citizens on the world stage, potentially dying, being maimed, etc., in a more-macro version of national service? I'm not following the logic.
DireWolf
11-22-2016, 11:35
But you're OK with non-citizens on the world stage, potentially dying, being maimed, etc., in a more-macro version of national service? I'm not following the logic.
Yes. Serving in the military has long been accepted as a viable path to citizenship, requires an oath at enlistment to defend/protect the constitution, and what with the posse comititus act, I cant imagine many circumstances where an individual enlisted service member (I wouldn't think there are many non-citizen commissions) would be placed in a position to enforce _____ law over US Citizens, and/or without the immediate presence of other service members or someone in thier chain of command present....
I believe this is VERY different than LE roles, where they have the potential to directly impact the freedoms and protections afforded to citizens, are not on a mil base or overseas theater where UCMJ takes precedence, etc., and the discresion of individual LE officers/agents play such an important part, where some familiary with both our laws and culture is required in order to perform those duties effectivly and in good faith (also in many circumstances without immediate supervision by their chain of command - i.e. nobody watching over sholder to make sure they execute their duties properly and in accordance with the law).
Part of becoming a citizen entails learning and sucessfully demonstaiting knowledge around areas such as history, civics, etc., and quite frankly I wouldn't trust a non-citizen not to violate basic freedoms and rights through ignorance (this is even a problem for people who have been educated in those areas). Once again, very different than performing duties in a military capacity, and way more opportunity for infringement, in my opinion....
This isn't about race, nationality, etc. It's about what I believe is a prerequisite level of understanding and, for lack of a better way of putting it, personal associations, required....
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osok-308
11-22-2016, 11:43
It doesn't make sense to me that you'd get sued for requiring citizenship in the country that you'd be enforcing the laws, but hey, that makes absolutely no sense to the media.
Yes. Serving in the military has long been accepted as a viable path to citizenship, requires an oath at enlistment to defend/protect the constitution, and what with the posse comititus act, I cant imagine many circumstances where an individual enlisted service member (I wouldn't think there are many non-citizen commissions) would be placed in a position to enforce _____ law over US Citizens, and/or without the immediate presence of other service members or someone in thier chain of command present....
I believe this is VERY different than LE roles, where they have the potential to directly impact the freedoms and protections afforded to citizens, are not on a mil base or overseas theater where UCMJ takes precedence, etc., and must have some familiary with both our laws and culture in order to perform their duties effectivly and in good faith (also in many circumstances without immediate supervision by their chain of command - i.e. nobody watching over sholder to make sure they execute their duties properly and in accordance with the law).
Part of becoming a citizen entails learning and sucessfully demonstaiting knowledge around areas such as history, civics, etc., and quite frankly I wouldn't trust a non-citizen not to violate basic freedoms and rights through ignorance (this is even a problem for people who have been educated in those areas). Once again, very different than performing duties in a military capacity, and way more opportunity for infringement, in my opinion....
This isn't about race, nationality, etc. It's about what I believe is a prerequisite level of understanding and, for lack of a better way of putting it, personal associations, required....
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I'm not an open carry guy, but why don't you go and try it and tell us how many current LE officers know and protect your freedoms. Not relating to your post but too often non citizens get confused with illegal aliens.
ZERO THEORY
11-22-2016, 11:54
http://i.imgur.com/w4i0Bkb.jpg
A non-citizen working on gaining his citizenship might be an acceptable exception to the rule.
What percentage of non-citizens are working on becoming citizens?
DireWolf
11-22-2016, 11:56
I'm not an open carry guy, but why don't you go and try it and tell us how many current LE officers know and protect your freedoms.
Kind of my point....If we have problems even with US citizens in LE roles knowing, understanding, and respecting our rights as citizens, how much will that issue be compounded when those enforcement activities are in the hands of those without even the most basic rudimentary understanding of our laws and culture....
This is just my opinion, but I figure why borrow more problems when we already have so much to deal with.....
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Where someone is born has a direct effect on their ability to learn a job. That makes perfect sense and also explains why Asians are good at math. Thanks for the explanation.
http://i.imgur.com/w4i0Bkb.jpg
Yes, very much so.
DireWolf
11-22-2016, 12:14
Where someone is born has a direct effect on their ability to learn a job. That makes perfect sense and also explains why Asians are good at math. Thanks for the explanation.
There's some of that in the mix I'm sure, but I think a bigger part is just having met/performed/demonstrated adherence and knowledge of any reasonable prerequisites (which may be easier for some than others based on what culture they grew up in).
For example, if someone just immigrates from their 3rd world village where they were a healer, doctor, etc., and wants to find a new livelihood here, then great. BUT, if they want to practice medicine here then they need to complete med school first (and any other legal requirements)....I believe the same principle can be applied in this case as well - meet all reasonable prerequisites for faithful/competent execution of duties and there is no issue....
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kidicarus13
11-22-2016, 12:17
Where's ANGSTROM when you need him?
BushMasterBoy
11-22-2016, 12:19
They are hiring at the bubble!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKOb-kmOgpI
Seems to me that you are desiring a standard for non-citizens that you don't place on the shoulders of citizens. To be honest, I think all Police should have to have a course in civics (many do, as part of their otherwise useless CJ degree).
It would seem to me that the answer would be to make applying for Police work have a national standard of acceptance based on knowledge of laws and their application, with local being able to add to, but not take away from that. I would assume there is some of that. I dunno, having never applied for such a position.
What I do know is that the citizen only route really looks like crap, cus it seems there's a very good sample of idiot cop videos all over the internet. Also, knowledge of something != adherence and application, as demonstrated by not only citizens who are cops, but even a huge amount of lawyers.
clodhopper
11-22-2016, 12:35
What percentage of non-citizens are working on becoming citizens?
All of them of course. Ask any one of em and they will tell you so.
There is no possible way to get an accurate count on that at all. Most of the non-citizens I know are actively working on getting citizenship. Not all however. I had a professor in college that was proud of the fact that he was a Canadian citizen and had no interest in becoming an American to enable him to avoid taxes. He was married to a US citizen, so could not be bumped out. We all thought he was a jackazz. Typical "My country is so awesome, I choose to live here" crap. All anecdotal information, take it for what it is worth.
Delfuego
11-22-2016, 12:38
“The Justice Department’s investigation found that from approximately Jan. 1, 2015, until approximately March 23, 2016, the Denver Sheriff Department discriminated based on citizenship status by requiring applicants for deputy sheriff positions to be U.S. citizens and publishing job postings with U.S. citizenship requirements, in violation of the Immigration and Nationality Act (INA). The INA’s anti-discrimination provision prohibits employers from limiting jobs to U.S. citizens except where the employer is required to do so by law, regulation, executive order or government contract. The Denver Sheriff Department was not subject to one of the INA’s exceptions.”They violated the Immigration and Nationality Act
The Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965 (H.R. 2580; Pub.L. 89–236, 79 Stat. 911, enacted June 30, 1968), also known as the Hart–Celler Act, changed the way quotas were allocated by ending the National Origins Formula that had been in place in the United States since the Emergency Quota Act of 1921.Their department is not exempt from this. They have since correct the issue
The department is allowed to hire non-citizens that are eligible to work in this country. These are not illegal immigrants (or wetbacks if you want to be ignorant).
Anyone that starts a sentence with "Basically"; is not journalist, they are editorial. That website and some of you are just trying to still up shit. Take you recreational outrage and go home.
Basically, they want departments to hire:
People who are not U.S. citizens
People who are physically weak
People who aren’t intelligent
Criminals
People who can’t read or write well, which is half of our job
For example, if someone just immigrates from their 3rd world village where they were a healer, doctor, etc., and wants to find a new livelihood here, then great. BUT, if they want to practice medicine here then they need to complete med school first (and any other legal requirements)....I believe the same principle can be applied in this case as well - meet all reasonable prerequisites for faithful/competent execution of duties and there is no issue....
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That's either a terrible or completely appropriate example. People who are medical doctors trained at medical schools in other countries are not medical doctors here because that college didn't pay the fees to be a certified school by the applicable us agencies.
http://i.imgur.com/w4i0Bkb.jpg
Thread winner
Seems to me that you are desiring a standard for non-citizens that you don't place on the shoulders of citizens. To be honest, I think all Police should have to have a course in civics (many do, as part of their otherwise useless CJ degree).
It would seem to me that the answer would be to make applying for Police work have a national standard of acceptance based on knowledge of laws and their application, with local being able to add to, but not take away from that. I would assume there is some of that. I dunno, having never applied for such a position.
What I do know is that the citizen only route really looks like crap, cus it seems there's a very good sample of idiot cop videos all over the internet. Also, knowledge of something != adherence and application, as demonstrated by not only citizens who are cops, but even a huge amount of lawyers.
I'll break it down for you based on the opinions expressed so far in this thread.
There should be a minimum performance standard in order for one to qualify to be a police officer; some sort of interview process or something for example. Non US citizen = wetback or mystical shawman from a jungle village. Hand this person a radar gun, and when they observe a citizen driving 30 mph in a 25 mph zone, the citizen may end up stabbed in the face with a fire stick since that's how it was done back in the village. So naturally, it is safer for the citizenry to wholesale ban non-citizens from applying for law enforcement positions.
DireWolf
11-22-2016, 12:43
Seems to me that you are desiring a standard for non-citizens that you don't place on the shoulders of citizens. To be honest, I think all Police should have to have a course in civics (many do, as part of their otherwise useless CJ degree).
It would seem to me that the answer would be to make applying for Police work have a national standard of acceptance based on knowledge of laws and their application, with local being able to add to, but not take away from that. I would assume there is some of that. I dunno, having never applied for such a position.
What I do know is that the citizen only route really looks like crap, cus it seems there's a very good sample of idiot cop videos all over the internet. Also, knowledge of something != adherence and application, as demonstrated by not only citizens who are cops, but even a huge amount of lawyers.
I see where you're coming from, and I don't pretend to have all the answers, but a couple thoughts...
1. At this point, who cares how it looks? So much of the shit were in is because "well, we don't want to look like big meanies". That's kowtowing to the PC crowd, and doesn't do us any favors. We need to do whats right for us (Americans, by birth or naturalization), and to hell with anyone that doesnt like it...
2. Can I become a member of the Canadian RCMP (with full powers of arrest/enforcement) without being a Canadian citizen? How about a Mexican Federale without being a Mexican citizen? UK Constable without being a UK citizen? The example here can go on, but I would be very suprised to learn that I can be hired for as a LE officer in any of those situations without being a citizen of the country in question.....
3. Do you want to try exaining to Hussien, who a year ago was with the Iraqi Federal Police and just got his green card, how you're not violating a law which doesn't even exist here, while his hand rests on his sidearm? (maybe this one is a little over the top, but emminently possible in the "allow anyone to be LE" paradigm)...
Perhaps a "gated" approach can be taken e.g. citizenship, or at least (to an earlier comment) active in-process for citizenship, is simply the first phase gate which must be passed, followed by additional requirements/testing/etc...
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DireWolf
11-22-2016, 12:49
That's either a terrible or completely appropriate example. People who are medical doctors trained at medical schools in other countries are not medical doctors here because that college didn't pay the fees to be a certified school by the applicable us agencies.
That's a fair observation, and maybe my example could use a little work....
The whole fees/pay-to-play issue isnt what I was getting at, so much as the concept of having the basic understanding, mindset, and qualifications which are required to do the job at a minimum acceptable level of competency and consistency with other practitioners....
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The whole fees/pay-to-play issue isnt what I was getting at, so much as the concept of having the basic understanding, mindset, and qualifications which are required to do the job at a minimum acceptable level of competency and consistency with other practitioners....
You're describing the minimum job requirements for every job ever held (except for politician), yet you've yet to mention a direct connection between being born in the US and being able to meet a minimum standard.
Delfuego
11-22-2016, 12:55
The Denver Sheriffs are not the Denver Police. They primarily run the jails. Can an legal immigrant not cook food, drive a van or clean the office?
DireWolf
11-22-2016, 13:00
You're describing the minimum job requirements for every job ever held (except for politician), yet you've yet to mention a direct connection between being born in the US and being able to meet a minimum standard.
I don't believe I stated or even implied a requirement to be born in the US.
I stated that as a basic minimum prerequisite to being a fully empowered LE officer (as opposed to something like a civilian backoffice support/admin worker for a LE agency), that current citizenship, or verifiably in-process to obtain citizenship should be required. I believe this to be critical for reasons such as cultural alignment, etc.
I make no distinction based on where someone was born, but for those born elsewhere, the act of pursuing citizenship is indicative of a commitment to integrating with our culture, as opposed to just living here but maintaining primary allegiance to an alternative culture or way of lfe...
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DireWolf
11-22-2016, 13:06
The Denver Sheriffs are not the Denver Police. They primarily run the jails. Can an legal immigrant not cook food, drive a van or clean the office?
Absolutely they can, and there should be no impediment to that.
The instant they are given powers of enforcement, arrest, applying deadly force under color of law (and the blanket immunity that I understand goes along with that) etc., then no friggin way would I be accepting or condoning of that without citizenship as a prerequisite (not like I have any choice or say in the matter though, so my opinion doesn't mean squat in this case...)
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1 - no, we are in this situation because a lot of police simply do not care about the law and routinely violate civil rights. When Jimmy from Alabama, born and bred, "Don't give no rats ass, I'm the law 'round he'e boy", does it make a difference if Jimmy is a citizen? Nope. Why is this occurring? Because Jimmy a) doesn't care because potentially b) Jimmy didn't have to pass much of a standard because c) citizens don't know much of anything about US law -- it's no longer really taught.
2 - Who cares what other countries do? That you'd appeal to the law in other countries about citizens of other countries not following US law because they don't know it is illogical beyond belief. If you want US law to be followed, then appeal to US law.
3 - What about explaining to Jimmy from Alabama?
If you want a standard, citizen from falling out of a uterus onto US soil is a pretty lame one. I'd prefer people who meet a standard of knowledge and ability to apply it.
BushMasterBoy
11-22-2016, 13:12
This is what happens when you don't hire competent legal counsel. I couldn't find any listing of an attorney on the sheriffs staff roster.
DireWolf
11-22-2016, 13:35
1 - no, we are in this situation because a lot of police simply do not care about the law and routinely violate civil rights. When Jimmy from Alabama, born and bred, "Don't give no rats ass, I'm the law 'round he'e boy", does it make a difference if Jimmy is a citizen? Nope. Why is this occurring? Because Jimmy a) doesn't care because potentially b) Jimmy didn't have to pass much of a standard because c) citizens don't know much of anything about US law -- it's no longer really taught.
2 - Who cares what other countries do? That you'd appeal to the law in other countries about citizens of other countries not following US law because they don't know it is illogical beyond belief. If you want US law to be followed, then appeal to US law.
3 - What about explaining to Jimmy from Alabama?
If you want a standard, citizen from falling out of a uterus onto US soil is a pretty lame one. I'd prefer people who meet a standard of knowledge and ability to apply it.
I'm not disagreeing that there are bigger problems at play, and "good-ol-boy" officer Jimmy is a big one that isn't addressed by this.
I also dont really care what other countries do, my point is that we dont always have to be the 'nice guy' and for anybody that takes issue with us putting "Americans first" should go try their argument elsewhere and see how far that gets them...
Somebody will always be unhappy with any course of action taken, so in America, we need to put America and American citizens first (because whatever you think of those other countries, that's exactly what they are doing with respect to themselves), and any dissenting opinions can remain just that.....
And lastly, the standard isn't and shouldn't be just one item, because I completely agree with #3, and birth location is largely irrelevant (unless your formative years were spent learning "death to America" or the like)...
Maybe something like:
1. Does the position have enforcement authority (as opposed to admin functions)? If not, then go to less rigorous vetting (e.g. criminal/employment history, etc.)
---
2. If enforcement, is applicant citizen or have documented proof of citizenship-in-progress?
3. Can applicant pass required background checks? (If they moved here from syria 6 months ago. My guess would be they can't)
If yes, then applicant provided with appropriate refresher training, including civics, US constitution, ethics, etc., with periodic retraining (similar to annual re-training required in many professions). This would be a blanket approach for all relevant personnel...
Once again, just my opinion on the matter, and I believe this is actually several issues which need to be considered as independent of each other, though closely related...
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OneGuy67
11-22-2016, 14:22
Over the years, I've worked in law enforcement with people who were here legally and able to work via their immigration status. Some never took that additional step to become a voting citizen; others had no plans of returning to their home country ever again, but didn't want to lose their citizenship for their children's sake, or some other reason. Could have just simply have been they were too lazy to obtain their citizenship. A number where good cops.
Over the years, I've worked in law enforcement with people who were here legally and able to work via their immigration status. Some never took that additional step to become a voting citizen; others had no plans of returning to their home country ever again, but didn't want to lose their citizenship for their children's sake, or some other reason. Could have just simply have been they were too lazy to obtain their citizenship. A number where good cops.
Yup.
Some can be the time and cost. When I got the N400, it was dirt cheap. Now, the cost $680 (according to googlefu) to apply for N400.
Bailey Guns
11-22-2016, 15:52
It's been a long time since I've applied for a job in LE so maybe the law has since changed...but it seems to me that when I did (last time in the 90s) being a US citizen was always listed as a requirement. I always thought that was odd since non-citizens can serve in the military.
Great-Kazoo
11-22-2016, 16:01
The Denver Sheriffs are not the Denver Police. They primarily run the jails. Can an legal immigrant not cook food, drive a van or clean the office?
Outside driving the van, those job duties go to trustees.
milwaukeeshaker
11-22-2016, 18:14
Illegal aliens should not be doing anything in this country, period. No jobs, no benefits, no rights, NO NOTHING!!! Go back to the country you are from and apply to LEGALLY come into this country! Simple. Additionally, illegals ain't any kind of immigrant, they are ALIENS, to hell with PC.
Illegal aliens should not be doing anything in this country, period. No jobs, no benefits, no rights, NO NOTHING!!! Go back to the country you are from and apply to LEGALLY come into this country! Simple.
Great, but not a single comment in this thread has been about illegal aliens, except for clarifying for others who have low reading comprehension.
milwaukeeshaker
11-22-2016, 18:19
Post 3, 5, 7 referring to illegals. Just the assumption, if not US citizen then usually an illegal.
Great, but not a single comment in this thread has been about illegal aliens, except for clarifying for others who have low reading comprehension.
+1
I don't know or why some brought "illegal" alien topic just took over thus thread.
https://www.denvergov.org/content/denvergov/en/sheriff-department/jobs/training.html
Deputy Sheriff must, at the time of application:
Be at least 21 years of age,
Have a High School Diploma or a General Equivalency Diploma (GED),
Be a United States Citizen,
Possess a valid Colorado Class “R” drivers license
Rucker61
11-22-2016, 19:41
All of them of course. Ask any one of em and they will tell you so.
There is no possible way to get an accurate count on that at all. Most of the non-citizens I know are actively working on getting citizenship. Not all however. I had a professor in college that was proud of the fact that he was a Canadian citizen and had no interest in becoming an American to enable him to avoid taxes. He was married to a US citizen, so could not be bumped out. We all thought he was a jackazz. Typical "My country is so awesome, I choose to live here" crap. All anecdotal information, take it for what it is worth.
I saw a figure from an DHS site using data fro 2012 that said of the 13 million lawful resident aliens, 8 million of them were actually eligible for citizenship.
Obama's DOJ isn't interested in advancing the legal non-citizen, they are interested in advancing the illegal alien to the front of the citizenship line. That is why this thread is about illegal aliens.
clodhopper
11-23-2016, 10:10
I saw a figure from an DHS site using data fro 2012 that said of the 13 million lawful resident aliens, 8 million of them were actually eligible for citizenship.
I dunno if you have been involved in the immigration system lately. The company I work for was the sponsor for the fellow I work with, for awhile I was the named rep for him. It has taken him years and over $10,000 to get his green card. Just the green card, not even citizenship yet. Once he got his green card, he began working on getting his wife here. That took over a year to get her visa and will take another year before she will be eligible for the green card, and that is being already married to someone here legally. There may be faster ways through the system, but the average schmo will not have that knowledge. The fellow I work with has an immigration lawyer working on it for him (which is part of the cost, but it supposedly saves time from incorrect submittals).
Our immigration system is anything but simple and cost efficient. I doesn't surprise me that there are 8 million people eligible and not yet completed the process.
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