Need advice with a traffic infraction situation. Hoping somebody can give some insight

[colorider]

This involved a family member, not me. Neighborhood is a private neighborhood in Morison. Not gated, but only one road in. Roads in the neighborhood are maintained by the HOA. The residents legally drive golf carts all over their roads. Carts do NOT need to be plated and it is common practice. On Friday evening my relative slammed on brakes and veered to the side of the road in order to miss 3 deer. Car clobbered a rock and lodged said rock under the front diff. Car would not move forward or back. Rock was NOT in somebodies yard, but rather in a common area. Who owns that common area I am not sure. Could be the HOA, could be open space. Rock was 2 feet from the road so it is not like the car was blocking the road, and it did not go cruising through the open space. Being the car would not move and it was later in the evening, the car was left until morning when a tow truck was called to get the car. When they went to the car location (2 blocks from their house) to meet the tow truck, there was a state patrol there doing a workup on the "scene". The driver got a ticket for careless driving and fleeing the scene of an accident. There was NO property damage to the rock, or any property other than the car. The driver is questioning the if the State Patrol's citations are valid being that it was private property.
Anybody have experience with this kind of stuff?

[TFOGGER]

This involved a family member, not me. Neighborhood is a private neighborhood in Morison. Not gated, but only one road in. Roads in the neighborhood are maintained by the HOA. The residents legally drive golf carts all over their roads. Carts do NOT need to be plated and it is common practice. On Friday evening my relative slammed on brakes and veered to the side of the road in order to miss 3 deer. Car clobbered a rock and lodged said rock under the front diff. Car would not move forward or back. Rock was NOT in somebodies yard, but rather in a common area. Who owns that common area I am not sure. Could be the HOA, could be open space. Rock was 2 feet from the road so it is not like the car was blocking the road, and it did not go cruising through the open space. Being the car would not move and it was later in the evening, the car was left until morning when a tow truck was called to get the car. When they went to the car location (2 blocks from their house) to meet the tow truck, there was a state patrol there doing a workup on the "scene". The driver got a ticket for careless driving and fleeing the scene of an accident. There was NO property damage to the rock, or any property other than the car. The driver is questioning the if the State Patrol's citations are valid being that it was private property.
Anybody have experience with this kind of stuff?

If I recall correctly, the State Patrol has jurisdiction anywhere within the state, other than Tribal Lands.

[Irving]

There is no recourse. It doesn't sound like private property either. I had a family member get run off the road and be high centered in a snow bank. He got those same citations, delivered to the house, in a different county, on Christmas morning.

[Grant H.]

Yeah, pretty much just going to have to take it.

Maybe try arguing with the DA before court, or with the judge during court, but beyond that, pay them to get the reduction in points/etc, and move along with life.

[Great-Kazoo]

This involved a family member, not me. Neighborhood is a private neighborhood in Morison. Not gated, but only one road in. Roads in the neighborhood are maintained by the HOA. The residents legally drive golf carts all over their roads. Carts do NOT need to be plated and it is common practice. On Friday evening my relative slammed on brakes and veered to the side of the road in order to miss 3 deer. Car clobbered a rock and lodged said rock under the front diff. Car would not move forward or back. Rock was NOT in somebodies yard, but rather in a common area. Who owns that common area I am not sure. Could be the HOA, could be open space. Rock was 2 feet from the road so it is not like the car was blocking the road, and it did not go cruising through the open space. Being the car would not move and it was later in the evening, the car was left until morning when a tow truck was called to get the car. When they went to the car location (2 blocks from their house) to meet the tow truck, there was a state patrol there doing a workup on the "scene". The driver got a ticket for careless driving and fleeing the scene of an accident. There was NO property damage to the rock, or any property other than the car. The driver is questioning the if the State Patrol's citations are valid being that it was private property.
Anybody have experience with this kind of stuff?

First mistake was not contacting the HOA, tow service and or local LE. leaving the scene of any accident is (IIRC) 12 pts) I know as i left the scene (as stated by CSP) after hitting a deer. Fortunately, in my case, i had enough "evidence" to show i was not the one who hit the deer and i did call it in
Had i not have contacted CSP i would have been slammed with a 12pt ticket. Even though CSP (on scene) said they never were contacted. Till i showed him my phone call from 30 min prior to *277 & dispatch contacts name....... OOPS

[Bailey Guns]

Careless Driving is one charge that can be written on private property. It's really only an "accident" if there is damage to the vehicle or other property or persons. IIRC it's basically just getting stuck if there's no damage. So there may be some issue with the "leaving the scene" charge being a valid charge if it did, in fact, occur on private property. Try to verify who owns the property. Many HOAs have private roads but contract with a city/county for traffic enforcement. Genesee was that way when I worked for the county way back.

Don't sweat it too much. Just give it a week or 10 days then talk to the DA's office. Explain the circumstances. They will most likely be willing to make it go away or offer a plea to something like "Defective Vehicle"...so long as you can prove there wasn't damage and it was private property, etc.

It's really not that big of a deal even though it seems like it to the person with the huge ticket. If you can't work something out with the DA, maybe try a free consult with an atty to see what your best option is.

[DireWolf]

They will most likely be willing to make it go away or offer a plea to something like "Defective Vehicle"...so long as you can prove there wasn't damage and it was private property, etc.


I would suggest doing a bit of research before accepting a plea for "Defective Vehicle" if offered...Long time ago (if I'm remembering correctly), I accepted a plea for defective vehicle in liu of a bunch of points (don't remember how many, but was going waaayyyyy too fast), and while I didn't get my license suspended (like I said, way too fast), it ended up affecting my insurance costs for years before I caught it, because ins. company decided the defective vehicle was unsafe and higher risk.....but with nothing actually "broken", there was nothing to fix and send in to prove that vehicle wasn't unsafe....

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[Irving]

That defective vehicle ticket didn't affect your insurance rates nearly as much as a disowned license or a 12pt ticket would have.

[DireWolf]

That defective vehicle ticket didn't affect your insurance rates nearly as much as a disowned license or a 12pt ticket would have.
That's quite likely, but I'm no expert with this and am making some assumptions based on just my own experience in this area...

One thing I did notice however was that the defective vehicle flag seemed to carry much longer than some points from a different ticket that same year..but to your point, in the grand scheme of things it still likely had less overall impact.

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[crays]

That's quite likely, but I'm no expert with this and am making some assumptions based on just my own experience in this area...

One thing I did notice however was that the defective vehicle flag seemed to carry much longer than some points from a different ticket that same year..but to your point, in the grand scheme of things it still likely had less overall impact.

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Maybe Irving , or one of the other insurance experienced members, can chime i here because I am dipping my toe in muddy waters. Perhaps the insurance companies poo-poo the "Defective Vehicle" designation a bit more stringently because they know it is likely something more serious that has been pled down?

ETA: Sorry, OP. I'm not contributing much to your questions. Sorry for the derail.

[colorider]

Actually, the detail is very helpful. Thanks a TON for all the info. The total points on the ticket is 16 from what I was told. Anyhoo, I will let ya all know what transpires. I will have the person contact the da in a few days and see what happens.

[MarkCO]

Yes, CSP has jurisdiction unless within a City Limits with a PD.

Yes, they were wrong to leave the scene without contacting LE.

Yes, they can likely get the charges reduced. The process varies based on several factors. The actual officer is the prosecutor if it goes to court and it will likely be to a Judge. I have testified in 2 CSP cases this year, and CSP lost both, but in most cases, they have their ducks in a row and beating a ticket in court would be difficult. If I was said person, I would find the actual owner of the property and attempt to get a letter stating that there was no damage, no hazard and leaving the car was okay with them. If the HOA or a property owner within the HOA called CSP, that might be difficult to overcome without a letter. Armed with all the info possible, appear on the court date and ask to speak to the DA. In some cases, they will offer a suspended sentence if said person has a clean record. That means nothing except court costs and it all goes away if there are no citations within 1 year (or 2 years).

If it has been less than 14 days, it might be beneficial to contact the Troop Office and see if there are any reduction options, but those, if offered, will be less than a DA will offer, especially if the driver has a clean record.

[osok-308]

That defective vehicle ticket didn't affect your insurance rates nearly as much as a disowned license or a 12pt ticket would have.

This. If he can just pay a penalty assessment, there's almost always a point reduction. If your family member is absolutely positive that they're in the right, they can try to fight it. It does sound like the trooper was accurate to write the ticket. Also, you can get written a ticket even if the vehicle doesn't require plates. There are a ton of "toy vehicle" infractions in traffic code.

[asmo]

The HOA *should* carry liability insurance for the common areas within the PUD.

[Wulf202]

I don't get why golf carts are part of the story of a car wreck to avoid deer. Electric Golf carts do not require plates in this state

[CS1983]

I don't get why golf carts are part of the story of a car wreck to avoid deer. Electric Golf carts do not require plates in this state

Probably because people assume that if road != plate necessitated | private property, then there is no applicability for traffic citations. Unfortunately, that's not true.

[osok-308]

I don't get why golf carts are part of the story of a car wreck to avoid deer. Electric Golf carts do not require plates in this state

I thought he was saying the whole wreck happened in a golf cart. Correct me if in wrong on that. While golf carts do not require registration, you can still be cited on one, just like if you ride a bicycle drunk, you can still get a DUI.

[CS1983]

I thought he was saying the whole wreck happened in a golf cart. Correct me if in wrong on that. While golf carts do not require registration, you can still be cited on one, just like if you ride a bicycle drunk, you can still get a DUI.

He was citing the use of golf carts to set up the argument that the CSP should have no jurisdiction because it is not a public road. The accident took place in a proper car.

[colorider]

^^^^^^
correct. You can't just cruise around any street in a golf cart. Gas or electric. I really appreciate the discussion. Have learned a lot and relayed the info to the party involved.

[Monky]

Let's go ahead and clear it up that it is NOT private property. The way that CSP has jurisdiction is that it is NOT a gated community. As long as there is access into the community the city/county/state maintains the roads. Thus not a private road or property. Any vehicle operating the roads are governed by the same laws as every other road.


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[MED]

I got out of a careless driving ticket back in the 80s, and I clearly deserved it. I went and talked to the assistant DA during my scheduled time; and I was extremely nice, which was a refreshing change for the DA (person before me was yelling at him). My ticket was deferred and was removed after one year. Best advice I can think of is talk to the assistant DA and be nice regardless of what your friend thinks of the situation; any negative contact he/she has with either LEO or the DAs office will hurt his/her chances. If the assistant DA won't budge, hire an attorney and go to court.

[colorider]

Let's go ahead and clear it up that it is NOT private property. The way that CSP has jurisdiction is that it is NOT a gated community. As long as there is access into the community the city/county/state maintains the roads. Thus not a private road or property. Any vehicle operating the roads are governed by the same laws as every other road.


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The roads are maintained by the HOA. Plowing, maintaining and replacement. Which is one reason for my questioning the ticket.

[osok-308]

The roads are maintained by the HOA. Plowing, maintaining and replacement. Which is one reason for my questioning the ticket.

Law enforcement CAN site for the following 5 violations on private property: careless driving (which is what it sounds like he got a ticket for), reckless driving, unsafe backing, DUI, or handicap violations (doesn't matter who maintains the property). If they wrote careless on the private property for the accident and no one was there, I can imagine them taking on the "fleeing the scene" charge.

[WETWRKS]

The private property thing might be a defense if it were your private property. Odds are the property owner called the police to ticket the vehicle found crashed on their property.

[MarkCO]

Let's go ahead and clear it up that it is NOT private property. The way that CSP has jurisdiction is that it is NOT a gated community. As long as there is access into the community the city/county/state maintains the roads. Thus not a private road or property. Any vehicle operating the roads are governed by the same laws as every other road.

Not true. There are certainly private roads and communities which the roads are owned and maintained by private entities. In those cases, CSP certainly has jurisdiction. I am not interested in looking up the case law, but I have worked on numerous cases of accidents, even fatalities due to MVAs on private property where CSP wrote the citations. Many of those were in City Limits, but in a private parking lot.

[beast556]

Careless Driving is one charge that can be written on private property. It's really only an "accident" if there is damage to the vehicle or other property or persons. IIRC it's basically just getting stuck if there's no damage. So there may be some issue with the "leaving the scene" charge being a valid charge if it did, in fact, occur on private property. Try to verify who owns the property. Many HOAs have private roads but contract with a city/county for traffic enforcement. Genesee was that way when I worked for the county way back.

Don't sweat it too much. Just give it a week or 10 days then talk to the DA's office. Explain the circumstances. They will most likely be willing to make it go away or offer a plea to something like "Defective Vehicle"...so long as you can prove there wasn't damage and it was private property, etc.

It's really not that big of a deal even though it seems like it to the person with the huge ticket. If you can't work something out with the DA, maybe try a free consult with an atty to see what your best option is.

+1 this is exactly what I would do.

[CS1983]

^^^^^^
correct. You can't just cruise around any street in a golf cart. Gas or electric. I really appreciate the discussion. Have learned a lot and relayed the info to the party involved.

Actually, depending on the circumstance, one CAN just cruise around in a golf cart. The folks who make the laws most likely cruise around on their golf carts.

[BushMasterBoy]

Moral of the story, when in doubt call *CSP (*277) or 911 and report it!

[Wulf202]

Rocks aren't free they're someone's property. The car hit the rock with enough force to disable the vehicle. The rock was bound up against spinning metal objects. How is there no damage?

I have to deal with a half a dozen hit and run vs property every year. The driver needs to take responsibility for their actions.

Talk to the da and get it reduced. Learn and move on.

[osok-308]

Moral of the story, when in doubt call *CSP (*277) or 911 and report it!

Depending, they may let you file a counter report, in which case, you wouldn't be cited.