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View Full Version : Baca County Permit Holders? (Sheriff Rant)


jh308
09-21-2009, 16:52
I don't know if there are any members here that reside in Baca County. My father is currently applying for a CCW permit w/the sheriff there. The Sheriff and the staff member Donna are pulling the rug over some of the CCW applicants and some current permit holders there. He is only validating permits for the length of his term. There are denying the FACT that C.R.S. states a permit "...is valid for a period of five years after the date of issuance and may be renewed as provided in section 18-12-211." In 2003, Senate Bill 03-024 set statewide standards for the issuance of permits, and gives sheriff's no latitude to set the term of a permit.

We were told that the sheriff was doing this by another class member, whose husband's permit was only valid thru the sheriff's current term. I just figured she was mistaken or he had misunderstood. Later I found out she was not. I wonder how many people down there he has lied to.

I am just hoping that some of the members here are located in Baca County and that if you have a permit, applied for a permit under this sheriff, that you were not treated w/the same disregard by this guy and his staff as my father and I were. If you were, are, or you are planning on getting a permit that you know the law and you let him know that shit won't fly. I guess Sheriff Steve Salzbrenner believes that he can just make up the law as he goes. They already refuse to investigate crime scenes on Holidays, but that's a whole other story... If they're not the laughing stock of LEO everywhere, the should be. Please, don't get me wrong, I'm sure there are some good LEO in that office. In fact, I know there are LEO t8hat care about the people and the laws, so I don't want this to sound like I'm ragging on the entire Dept. I'm not, just the two that my father and I spoke w/today. They are obviously above the laws they enforce.

I called the sheriff's office today myself and read C.R.S. 18-12-211 to Donna. She is listed as the CCW contact for Baca County as I was told thru another staffer, as well as, CBI when I discussed the matter w/them today. After I read it to her on the phone, she stated that they had always just issued them until the end of the current term of the sheriff. I asked her how they could do that when the law states otherwise, she again stated that was "how they had always done it." I told her that I had been in contact w/RMGO (You guys Rock!) and they had offered their assistance if needed. I told her that I wanted to give them a chance to correct their oversight before asking RMGO or the NRA for assistance. The response I recieved was a little shocking. She told me to do whatever I needed to do and that they would do whatever they wanted to do. I couldn't believe it to be honest. I had spoken w/a nice gentleman for CBI this morning over this issue. He had give me Donna's name and he left his name w/me and told me to have her call him personally if she needed him to explain the law to her. I did find that funny, I must admit.

My father had spoken w/Sheriff Steve Salzbrenner in person about the issue downtown today. The sheriff told him that they were only issued for the remainder of his term. Dad told him that he had the C.R.S. in his vehicle if he wanted to see and the sheriff told him no. Can you believe that crap?

I emailed RMGO the details and they have already drafted a letter that will be mailed to the Sheriff tomorrow. I couldn't believe the repsonse time from them. I was amazed to say the least. If any of you aren't member there, you should be.

So in closing, if any members here are from Baca County, please contact Sheriff Steve Salzbrenner @ 719-523-6677 and let them know that we WILL NOT stand for it. They have to obey the same laws we do. If any of you have a recent CCW from this guy and he did not issue for the full five years, please find out what you need to do to correct this. And please remember this next November when he's up for re-election. We have enough people in Washington trying to strip us of our rights, we don't have to tolerate, nor do we need to elect another one to local office.

Sorry for the rant, I'm just so pi$$ed right now. I can only hope that they won't try to deny my fathers permit just because of my actions, but we'll see. He's never had anything other than a few speeding tickets in his entire life and he is a good man. I doubt he'll ever even carry to be honest. He just wanted the permit so that if he ever happened to have a pistol in one of his vehicles and was stopped, they wouldn't be able to give him a hard time about it.

Again, sorry for the rant. If any of you may know a way for me to make sure that the sheriff is allowed to do this and to help correct the people whom he has already done this crap to, please let me know. Like I said RMGO are sending him a letter and they have been great so far. I am very impressed and if you are not a member there, please sign up!
Irving
09-21-2009, 17:42
He just wanted the permit so that if he ever happened to have a pistol in one of his vehicles and was stopped, they wouldn't be able to give him a hard time about it.




CCW shouldn't matter if stopped in a private vehicle. The law says you can carry concealed in your own car. I've been stopped and made to exit the vehicle while carrying, and I don't have a permit. Wasn't a problem for me. Although, it didn't happen in Baca County either.


EDIT: I forgot to tell you that I think you did the right thing by contacting RMRO and I applaud your efforts so far.
jh308
09-21-2009, 19:27
CCW shouldn't matter if stopped in a private vehicle. The law says you can carry concealed in your own car. I've been stopped and made to exit the vehicle while carrying, and I don't have a permit. Wasn't a problem for me. Although, it didn't happen in Baca County either.


EDIT: I forgot to tell you that I think you did the right thing by contacting RMRO and I applaud your efforts so far.

I don't think he'd ever have a problem and I don't really believe he thinks it be that big of a deal either. He just seems to always like to cover his basis in case he runs into some one like we found out the sheriff seems to be. He buys a hunting license every just in case he's pulled over w/the rifle in the car, etc. Just a lot little over cautious people. I've also contacted the NRA-ILA and I'm hoping to hear back from them. He's been going thru the phone book for people he knows for sure has CCW and getting more names from those people. Just trying to let everyone know whats the sheriff is up to and if there's a way make him fix his wrong doings. We'll see.
pickenup
09-21-2009, 21:33
A sheriff that refuses to obey the LAW.
Why does that NOT surprise me?
There are good ones, and not so good ones.

I agree, everyone should be a member.
I have been a RMGO member for years.


Keep us posted on this.
jh308
09-22-2009, 08:12
My father called me last night and he had been talking to some other permit holders trying to find out the issue and experation date of their permits. The gun shop owner's permit was valid for the correct five years. However, every wee citizen's (people like us) permits were only issued for the Sheriff's term, like he had told the two of us.

Anyone want to take a guess as to why he wouldn't mess w/the FFL holder? I'm guessing because the sheriff is smart enough to know that the FFL holder knows the law and wouldn't take that laying down.

I just have to get something typed up for the local paper now. Every CCW holder down there needs to know that the Sheriff lied to them and that they need to correct this. The people need to know that they elected a JBT and make sure they do not do it again.

I emailed the National Sheriff Association, as well as, the CO Association of Sheriffs this morning as well. Hopefully they'll be in touch, but who knows.
Pistol Packing Preacher
09-22-2009, 09:12
The Elbert county sheriff puled the same stuff on many CCW holders by issuing licenses up to his term in office. After some complained - I do not know who they complained to - he had to recall all licenses and re issue for the full and legal 5 year term... not a word of apologies. This sheriff was an ATF agent turned 'politician'.

Keep at them... No one is above the law!

[Rant1] [Rant2] [Bang] [Stooge]
Irving
09-22-2009, 10:36
Now, while you're still hot on this guy's case, you need to find out who else is likely to run for the position. It's easy to not vote for him again, but you want to make sure that you have a successor that you approve of as well.
SA Friday
09-22-2009, 10:46
The Elbert county sheriff puled the same stuff on many CCW holders by issuing licenses up to his term in office. After some complained - I do not know who they complained to - he had to recall all licenses and re issue for the full and legal 5 year term... not a word of apologies. This sheriff was an ATF agent turned 'politician'.

Keep at them... No one is above the law!

[Rant1] [Rant2] [Bang] [Stooge]

I know him. I guarantee that was admin oversight and not intentional. I would also make a calculated guess that percentage wise Elbert County has one of the highest concentration of CCW holders per capita of any CO county. Screwing his entire county intentionally would be political suicide, and he knows that.

Don't let the fact he was ATF fool you. He's a pretty good guy.
jh308
09-22-2009, 16:05
Does anyone know of any links or where the Elbert Co incident may be documented. Any kind of documentation could come in handy. One more thing to take into them.

My father is supposed to turn in his application today, so I'll post if there's any new info from todays visit. Last I talked to him, he was looking for someone to go in w/him. He was going to ask them all the same questions today and was hoping someone would accompany him so that it would not be his word against theirs.

Depending on what he finds out, I may try calling the DA tomorrow. He may want to know of the suits he's about to face in court.
Colorado Osprey
09-22-2009, 17:45
That is how my last El Paso county CCW expired. They would only issue it with an expiration date of the Sheriff's term.

That was a few years ago... maybe things have changed.
jh308
09-22-2009, 18:06
That is how my last El Paso county CCW expired. They would only issue it with an expiration date of the Sheriff's term.

That was a few years ago... maybe things have changed.

If it's after 2003, I don't see where they have a choice. The laws regarding statewide issuance were inacted in the Colorado Senate that year. The sheriff's have absolutely no say whatsoever in the term limit from all laws I can find. In fact, I can't see where they have any option at all except to issue, as long as you meet the criteria of course. Don't put up w/it.

--------------------------

My father went in today, and the sheriff's story had changed. They were willing to extend the entire five years as the law states. Donna wanted him to thank me for her, as I guess after I read her the C.R.S. and the Senate Bill in our heated discussion yesterday, she actually read it. After reading the law, they learned that not only did they have to issue for 5 yrs, they can also charge up to $100 + CBI fee. So she asked him to thank me for them making more money. He said he told her that was fine, as he was still getting 3 more years for the extra $50 they were now charging. He's still planning on putting something in the paper so that all the CCW holders they have screwed over can come and request their extra term that they were not given. We have also called all the other class members, just in case they get any shit from them.

Now just for the 90 day wait to make sure they don't try and pull anything else or deny approval.
Colorado Osprey
09-23-2009, 06:43
If it's after 2003, I don't see where they have a choice. The laws regarding statewide issuance were inacted in the Colorado Senate that year. The sheriff's have absolutely no say whatsoever in the term limit from all laws I can find. In fact, I can't see where they have any option at all except to issue, as long as you meet the criteria of course. Don't put up w/it.

actually it expired in '07 when the last sheriff election was
jh308
09-23-2009, 07:52
actually it expired in '07 when the last sheriff election was

If you renewed and it is not valid for five years from the date of renewal, you need to go back and demand your remaining term. The only reason they get away w/this crap is because we let them. The more we give, the more they take. The whole reason that our government, state, local, and federal, is the way it is today is because we have let it happen. We have nothing to blame, but ourselves. We can continue to bend over for them, or we can put up a fight. It's our choice whether we continue down this path or not. But that's just my MHO, YMMV. You may have circumstances that prevent you from doing this. If so, I'm sorry, that sucks.
jh308
09-25-2009, 08:09
The sheriff is saying that this was an oversight by his staff. They were just doing the same as the previous sheriff had done. He had asked him to come in and discuss the matter w/him personally yesterday. The sheriff said it was an oversight and he appreciated the clarification on the subject. He assured him that he would correct the prior CCW holders permits. My father told him as long as he would do that, he would inform the various associations that we had contacted that the matter had been resolved. He would also retract his letter to the papers as long as this was done. If he found out otherwise, he would turn the heat back on and go ahead w/his letter to the paper. When he was leaving Donna (Glorified Secretary and the person who handles the CCW permits) told him that was fine, but she was going to charge all of the CCW holders $50 more for the permit extension. He told her that was not possible. They paid for a 5 year permit, and they were obligated to make sure that they received it. So we'll see what happens. I'd say Donna needs to be replaced, however.
Rampart Runner
09-25-2009, 08:39
I am keeping an eye on this thread.

Thanks for updating and tell your Dad that I appreciate his tenacity.

RR
Dalendenver
10-31-2009, 19:15
Did anyone point out to Donna that the fee has to be related to actual costs? The statute says;

(5) The sheriff in each county or city and county in the state shall establish the amount of the new and renewal permit fees within his or her jurisdiction. The amount of the new and renewal permit fees shall comply with the limits specified in paragraph (b) of subsection (2) of this section and section 18-12-211 (1), respectively. The fee amounts shall reflect the actual direct and indirect costs to the sheriff of processing permit applications and renewal applications pursuant to this part 2.

If they were only charging $50 before and now want to charge $100 I would think they would have to justify this increase. The problem is I don't know who would enforce it.
Irving
10-31-2009, 21:35
I think that part about the "indirect" fees sounds like a difficult to prove loop hole to me.
jh308
11-04-2009, 20:54
Thanks for the info.

As far as I know, other than raising the fee, they seem to doing things correctly now. I haven't heard from anyone of the prior holders yet to see if they have fixed the dates yet or not. I've been so busy w/other things that I haven't had a chance to call anyone lately. When I find out I'll post back.

We're just about 45days so far, I'm assuming he'll be waiting the full 90 days, lol.