Woodworkers, need tips.

[Erni]

So I dont do a lot of woodwork and cant set up a worshop for the rare times that I do. But I do have a couple of closet updates I need to do, and may end up doing a custom shelfs and maybe a murphy bed for my daughters room update. (Turned teen, and the hello kitty themed room needs to be changed).

I can work with small pieces just fine with my 10" chop saw, have some air nailers, drills etc. I dont have a table saw, and dint really have room for one.
Here are the problems:
1. Larger pieces give me problems. Like making straight cut with the circular saw on a piece of ply or larger board.
Do I buy a clamp one straight edge, or a curcular saw sled, or what? Is buying precut pieces from a lumber yard the better choice here?
2. Handling larger pieces. Dont have room for a dedicated table. End up using a plastic picnic table, which is wobbly, and a BD folding stand, which is too small. Do I need to make a collapsible table, which will be a pain to store?
3. Joining. Dont have a system picked out and not sure which one will work for 95% of general joinery. Pocket screw jig, dowel and screw jig, biscuit joiner, routing for finger joints?
4. Finishing and staining. A can of poly is probably a great choice here, or should I brush? Staining always looks bad. Any hints on how to stain well?
5. Glue. White carpenter or the foaming gorilla types?
6. Any other tips you can share on making things easier?

Thank you.

[NFATrustGuy]

Your list of questions is perfect. I have all the same questions and will be watching this thread in hopes of learning something.

Rod

[encorehunter]

Check out Kreg tools. They have screw jointers and circular saw attachments for working with full sheets of plywood. They can get pricey, but are very small for storage. I have built a lot of things with the jointers and they are very well made. Maybe Stodg73 will chime in as he has extensive experience with them.

[Tim K]

Long cuts - use a guide. Make one or buy one.

Joining - biscuits for edge joints, pocket joint for everything else. Dowels and finger joints are a PITA.

Staining procedure: Sand to 180g. Flood the surface with stain and let it sit for a minute or two. Wipe off the excess. To get even staining, you must have excess stain. Don't stain hard-to-stain woods. Some are easier than others. Oak, Alder, Cherry, Hickory are easy. Most of the other common species are splotchy and require different techniques. Poly sucks because it dries so slowly, but it's a brushable finish so it's popular.

Carpenter glue. Gorilla glue blows. Too messy.

[Fromk]

I'm in the same situation as you. I do this kind of work just rarely enough that don't invest a whole lot in tools.

It was a tad pricey at $30 each but these metal saw horses have been a great investment and I use them all the time. Very adjustable and heavy enough that they make a very stable platform. Then they fold up flat and lean up against my garage wall. http://www.homedepot.com/p/34-in-Adjustable-Folding-Sawhorse-SH3801/206261852

My neighbor got a cheaper table saw a while back and I don't think I'd recommend it. It's too hard to get the fence at a true right angle and the measurements always seem to be a tad off. I think investing in a better circular saw and the right guides would have been a better choice.

For the joints I can tell you that making them with a handheld router is near impossible to do well as an amateur.

That's all I got. Hope some of it helps.

[JohnnyEgo]

You can do a lot to make life easier with the tools you have and about $100.

First off, go to Home Depot or Lowes. By a sheet of 2" thick rigid insulating foam. Lay it on the ground. Put your plywood on top of it. Congratulations, you have full support to break down a full sized sheet of ply. Later, if you want to get fancy, glue it to a cheap piece of ply and you have yourself a multi-purpose work table.
http://www.johnnyego.com//wood/2015Projects/cuttingtable/cuttingtable06.JPG
http://www.johnnyego.com//wood/2015Projects/drillpresscab/dpcabbuild09.JPG
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While you are at Home Depot, go to the shelving section and buy a long piece of melamine coated shelving. Maybe 6' if you can find it. It can be pretty narrow. Melamine shelving is a machined product that has a pronounced 90° face. Now screw or glue it to a piece of 1/4" thick Luan or similar ply panel. Place your track saw up against the 90° edge and cut the panel. What you are left with is a zero clearance track guide at a perfect straight angle to your saw. Place the guide on your cut mark, and that is exactly what you will cut to. You can scale it as long as you want, and it will give you very straight cuts.
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Buy a Kreg pocket hole jig. It is the easiest joint to create and use, and while not aesthetically pleasing where exposed, it is very strong and very fast. Half of my house is held together with pocket screws.
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Glue - Tightbond wood glue is great. I am partial to type 3, but it doesn't really matter. Doesn't take a very thick layer to perform a very strong bond. You just have to clamp it correctly and give it patience.
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Finish - Buy a pack of the blue or green scrubbing pads at your local grocery store. (Scotch Bright). These are the equivalent of fine steel wool, but they hold together better and any bits they leave in your finish won't rust. They will also help knock down some of the fuzz that comes up when you wet the board. Two to three coats of stain, then let dry for a few days. I spray poly now, but before that, wipe on poly was the world's greatest finish. Each coat is about half a coat of brush poly. I would put on two thick coats about thirty minutes apart (flood coats), usually via an old t-shirt. Let them cure for 48 hours, then take a window scraping blade or a card scraper and gently scrape all the surfaces smooth. Scratch it up a bit with 220 grit sand paper, clean it off good, and put the final coat on. This gave me a very smooth finish that doesn't retain dust.
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Bonafides: I spent my first 10 years of very amateur woodworking with little more than a drill, a circular saw, and some patient downstairs neighbors in my apartment complex. Now I have tens of thousands of dollars of woodworking tools. The only difference in output now and 30 years ago is experience and the number of things I can do in a given amount of time.

I built this 20 years ago on an apartment balcony with nothing more than a circular saw and corded drill"
http://www.johnnyego.com//wood/tools/entertainment1.jpg

I built this desk not too long ago with a few more tools that made it quicker:
http://www.johnnyego.com/wood/projects8/deskg.jpg

I'll give you two final pieces of advice and an offer:
1. You will never save any money building furniture over buying it.
2. Never offer or agree to build anyone anything for money. It will never be worth it.

Offer:
I live in Windsor, and I would love to be able to save other people interested in woodworking from the years of bad mistakes and hard lessons I learned. So if you want to cut something or try out a particular tool, let me know, and if I am around, you can come play in my shop.

[Irving]

Also, if you buy specialized tools used off of Craigslist, you can keep them as long as you need, then sell them again when you're done, for probably the same price. That will help with long term costs.

[StagLefty]

I have limited room also but several years ago I bought a Craftsman 10" folding table saw. Best investment I made for my shop size.

[buffalobo]

Tim and Johnny pretty much covered it all.

[stodg73]

So I dont do a lot of woodwork and cant set up a worshop for the rare times that I do. But I do have a couple of closet updates I need to do, and may end up doing a custom shelfs and maybe a murphy bed for my daughters room update. (Turned teen, and the hello kitty themed room needs to be changed).

I can work with small pieces just fine with my 10" chop saw, have some air nailers, drills etc. I dont have a table saw, and dint really have room for one.
Here are the problems:
1. Larger pieces give me problems. Like making straight cut with the circular saw on a piece of ply or larger board.
Do I buy a clamp one straight edge, or a curcular saw sled, or what? Is buying precut pieces from a lumber yard the better choice here?

Kreg Rip Cut. It is like a table saw on your circular saw, works very well. Just make sure that you set it up right. Very small footprint...

2. Handling larger pieces. Dont have room for a dedicated table. End up using a plastic picnic table, which is wobbly, and a BD folding stand, which is too small. Do I need to make a collapsible table, which will be a pain to store?

I use 2 fold in half, fold up picnic tables from Wal-Mart, and/or the bed of my truck when on a jobsite for stability. Using a 2" piece of foam board works, I use 2x4's or pieces of 2x4's to support the large pieces, and not cut my tables.(encorehunter)

3. Joining. Dont have a system picked out and not sure which one will work for 95% of general joinery. Pocket screw jig, dowel and screw jig, biscuit joiner, routing for finger joints?

I have a k5 Kreg jig. I use it for almost all jointing, however depending on what you want, you may need another way of jointing.

4. Finishing and staining. A can of poly is probably a great choice here, or should I brush? Staining always looks bad. Any hints on how to stain well?

Depending on what you want. Using a poly with stain works well, just read and follow the instructions on the can. Try doing smaller projects to get better with the product.(burns easier to hide the screw-ups).

5. Glue. White carpenter or the foaming gorilla types?

Gorilla glue, even if you are using pocket holes.

6. Any other tips you can share on making things easier?

Do smaller projects first, get better doing these, build confidence and all other projects will come easily. Learn how to use the tools, hide the pocket holes(no filling), join boards, sanding, etc., get to know your tools to make them work for you, NOT against you.

Thank you.


Answers in blue.

[JohnnyEgo]

People often confuse what a table saw will do for them. Table saws are great for shaping small to medium-sized pieces of wood. Table saws are horrible for breaking down sheet goods. A 4x8 sheet of ply is pretty unweildy to begin with, and it's hard to get a consistent smooth cut without good equipment and good technique. Don't confuse a framer running a sheet of sheathing through a job-site saw with no blade guard and a sack of concrete keeping it from tipping over with cutting four six foot panels out of a sheet of cabinet grade ply. If that is what you need, have Lowes break the sheet down for you on their panel saw. A large roller table or a Euro slider make it easier to break down sheet goods on a table saw, but if you have those things, you either already do this for a living or you have the money and space to spare.

When I moved up to my first big-boy table saw, I built a giant extension table and installed some cammed rollers to help me cut large panels. I was younger and stronger and willing to manhandle it in place.

Now I have a big hobbyist table saw (Sawstop Cabinet) with a 36" extension, and I do not cut anything larger than 3'x3' on it. Anything above that size, I take to the cut table and do with my track saw. I love my table saw, and it is literally the tablesaw of my dreams, but the extension mostly serves as a horizontal surface to pile offcuts, work, and tools. Tablesaws make trimming and cutting smaller pieces safer, faster, and more convenient.

Please note that I am a semi-skilled amateur. Tim K is a professional cabinet maker. Despite all my knowledge, tools, and experience, I'd hire out to him if I needed to replace my cabinets. Time is also money, and he can do things with a CNC panel cutter and a shaper in a much faster, consistent, and in a more efficient manner then I ever could. Plus, my wife could yell at him instead of me if something went wrong. Doing this for all these years has really made me appreciate the value of professionals.

There are few things more dangerous then trying to push a full sized sheet of ply through a wobbly $200 Craftsman direct drive table saw. Using the fence and miter gauge at the same time is one of those things, cost me my left thumb, and made Christmas of 2001 unforgettable for my whole family. But that is a story for another time, and I can save you stitches, blood, and ER bills by just suggesting you not do it.

[Ramsker]

I have limited room also but several years ago I bought a Craftsman 10" folding table saw. Best investment I made for my shop size.

Same. I've tried to take on more DIY where I could over the years and have bought some key tools along the way. When I worked on our master bath, I ended up needing to rip a piece of wood at a slight angle that would have been really hard with a circular saw. So I bought a 10" folding Craftsman table saw that was on sale and it got that job done . . . and I have gotten MANY miles out of that purchase project-wise. Between that, a good sliding miter saw, compressors and nailers bought off CL I have pieced together enough to get some things done.
Just bought a Kregg jig the other week . . . have not tried it yet but I was told I shouldn't be without one.

[Tim K]

I was in a rush earlier and didn't get to explain staining in detail. Staining is much trickier than it appears. Especially in my early years, I ruined more projects in staining than I care to remember. Between formal training, books, and applying 500 gallons of stain we've figured it out and now never make mistakes.

Most commercially available stains are pigmented stains. That means they're basically thin paint. The pigment is suspended in the vehicle solvent which is just used to get it to flow around. The pigment catches in the pores of the wood, and that's what causes the color to change. The pores will only accept so much pigment. Proper stain technique involves flooding the surface and letting it soak for a minute or so. This allows the wood to absorb as much pigment as it "wants". All that's left to do is wipe off all the excess stain. When the first application of stain is applied correctly, subsequent applications or coats will not change the color detectibly because the pores are already full. Proper technique should yield even coloring with no streaks or light spots.

Some woods are a pain in the ass to stain. Maple and pine (among others) are both famous for being blotchy. They will contain areas that absorb WAY more pigment than the surrounding areas or WAY less. The bitch is that it is impossible to see these areas until you apply stain. Of course, that's always 5 seconds too late. These species can be stained successfully, but it requires some different techniques. One option is to use a wood conditioner. These are products that are designed to control stain absorption and limit blotching. I've never had much success with them. Around here, we generally use spray stains on blotchy species. Spray staining is just like using an airbrush. You can use the same pigmented wiping stains or specialized spray stains. The trick here is that you are controlling how much stain the surface receives, so super porous areas can not get over-stained. It's extremely technique sensitive. You're basically misting stain on the wood trying to keep the color even. Doing one piece is not so bad, but not fun. Doing many pieces and getting consistent color over the whole batch is very, very difficult. In all seriousness, we generally just don't work with species that blotch. If we do, we primarily just apply a clear finish.

Poly/stain combo is like the worst of both worlds to me. It's basically varnish with color in it. The thicker the final film, the more color you'll get. It's just about guaranteed to give streaks.

Once you have color down, just use your choice of clear coat. Most homeowners have good success with regular old polyurethane varnish. It's a nice product because it's slow drying so the brush marks self-level. The down side is the dry time as it just gives more time for contaminants to fall (or crawl or fly) into the finish. We use catalyzed lacquer or conversion varnish here, but those are spray-only finishes.

For those not yet sleeping, I'll add one more detail. There's a category of stains out there called dye stains. They are radically different from pigmented stains in that they actually dye the wood. There is no pigment. Dye stains get darker with every application. This is nice in one sense as it allows you to build color to whatever you want, but just like a spray stain, it's very sensitive to technique. In fact, many spray stains are dye stains. If you go to Woodcraft or whatever, you will find the occasional hybrid dye stain that claims it can be wiped on. In my experience, that is total baloney. I avoid them. Some pigmented wiping stains will have a little dye in them to achieve deeper colors, but I've found those to be easy to work.

[Ramsker]

Some woods are a pain in the ass to stain. Maple and pine (among others) are both famous for being blotchy. They will contain areas that absorb WAY more pigment than the surrounding areas or WAY less. The bitch is that it is impossible to see these areas until you apply stain. Of course, that's always 5 seconds too late. These species can be stained successfully, but it requires some different techniques. One option is to use a wood conditioner. These are products that are designed to control stain absorption and limit blotching. I've never had much success with them.

Found this out the hard way. My wife wanted to get rid of the "golden oak" stair rails and balusters and do iron balusters and a darker stain. After speaking with some neighbors who all got insanely priced bids to have it professionally done, I decided I was dumb enough to try and tackle it myself. Given some difficulties I had in the past with staining, I decided that it would be smart to remove the railing on the wall and use it as my test . . . I'd sand it down and stain it and then I'd know how it would (or should) look when I do the rest. I did not use a wood conditioner--I had tried one on another project and it seemed to really change how the intended stain looked--made it look worse than without the conditioner. So I forged ahead.

There was a little blotchyness and streaking to it . . . but it was minimal and I actually thought it gave the rail a nice rustic look after the coats were done and the poly was all dried. So I decided to forge ahead with the project. Spent an entire day sanding and prepping the rails after removing the balusters. Put on the first coat of gel stain and let it dry . . . there was some of the same characteristics on those rails like the test one I did . . . maybe a little more pronounced in places (apparently the cheapie mass-produced rails also use different wood or different batches for sections). But the newell posts had some VERY dark patches/streaks in different places. Apparently they were pine or hemlock or something like that. CRAP! What do I do now? Re-sand it all and try to use a conditioner? That would also mean completely redoing the test rail and then what if it looked worse??

I decided to just see what happened with the additional gel stain coats. Those did seem to even out the patches a little . . . enough to where I thought it was trending more towards the cool/rustic look vs not good. When my wife got home that night I took her over and asked her what she thought. She said, "WOW--that looks awesome!" Thank God. I don't want to think about what I would have done if she would have gone, "hmmm . . . what did you do???".

Anyway . . . yeah . . . staining can suck. Before and after below. Don't get me started on my wife's love for mustard/yellow walls . . . trying to convince her to go with something more neutral next time around.

http://i.imgur.com/neAdPlT.jpg?1

[Erni]

Thanks to all for your tips and help. Johnny I may take you up on your offer when I have to cut something large.
I am supprised by the amout of love for the kreg screw system, but it sounds like thats the way to go. Neat trick with the foam cutting station. Will have to either build or create a saw guide and I should be all set for a while.

[stodg73]

Check out the rip cut by Kreg it attaches to your saw and there is no need for a saw guide. Plus you get a few other attachments/tools to help later on.

Make sure that you buy extra screws, you will use lots of them.

https://www.kregtool.com/store/c48/saw-attachments/p323/diy-project-kit/

[KS63]

What would you recommend as a sealer for a workebench top? Just want something that will prevent oils, fingerprints and gunpowder from staining it. I think the top of the sheet is Alder? Home Depot carries it in a 4x8 sheet.

[Tim K]

Polyurethane varnish.

[JohnnyEgo]

I'd go with Boiled Linseed Oil (BLO), Tung Oil, or Watco Danish, all of which can be found at Home Depot or Lowes. However, it's a work bench. Sooner or later it is going to get scratched by something nasty, and firearm solvents and cleaners will strip it out.
On the workbench I use most for cleaning guns, sharpening knives, or other nasty activities, I put a piece of 1/8" door-skin on top. It's essentially melamine over a thin layer of hardi-board. Clean it up with 409, discard it when it gets too ugly for your tastes. As an added benefit, it's like a giant white board. I write notes in pencil on it all the time. Mine has become pretty gnarly of late, and I plan on swapping out the existing skin tomorrow. My top is a layer of ply for strength and holding, a layer of MDF for being dead-flat and heavy, and a top layer of sacrificial door-skin.

[brutal]

One tip for something to avoid WRT finishes.

I made the mistake, after following a recommendation, of using nitrocellulose lacquer on the oak doors and millwork in my house in 2003 and am having to redo some of it. Particularly the bathroom doors. Looked great when first applied, but hasn't worn well in some areas - and I certainly used a lot of product. Most of it is holding up very well, but the full bath doors did not and some millwork in the kitchen, hall, and 1/2 bath (hardwood floors on the main floor) subjected to years of one of those damn swiffer wetjets did not. Bleached the color right out.

I redid two of the doors years ago in one bath (bedroom and hall access) as the finish failed rather quickly, and used Varathane satin spray poly the second time and it's holding up extremely well. I'm currently working on sanding down the other for a restain and recoat. Thankfully, I used a light colored stain and red oak is easy to stain so it blends well and doesn't look weird.

[brutal]

I'd go with Boiled Linseed Oil (BLO), Tung Oil, or Watco Danish, all of which can be found at Home Depot or Lowes. However, it's a work bench. Sooner or later it is going to get scratched by something nasty, and firearm solvents and cleaners will strip it out.
On the workbench I use most for cleaning guns, sharpening knives, or other nasty activities, I put a piece of 1/8" door-skin on top. It's essentially melamine over a thin layer of hardi-board. Clean it up with 409, discard it when it gets too ugly for your tastes. As an added benefit, it's like a giant white board. I write notes in pencil on it all the time. Mine has become pretty gnarly of late, and I plan on swapping out the existing skin tomorrow. My top is a layer of ply for strength and holding, a layer of MDF for being dead-flat and heavy, and a top layer of sacrificial door-skin.

Watco Danish is pretty good stuff. Dries hard and looks nice. Takes a while to fully cure. Keep in mind it has resins in it that harden in the wood, so it's permanent. Common finish to use when reconditioning older stereo speakers. JBL recommended maintenance of their oiled finishes using 3:1 BLO/Gum Turpentine mix.

[def90]

So I dont do a lot of woodwork and cant set up a worshop for the rare times that I do. But I do have a couple of closet updates I need to do, and may end up doing a custom shelfs and maybe a murphy bed for my daughters room update. (Turned teen, and the hello kitty themed room needs to be changed).

I can work with small pieces just fine with my 10" chop saw, have some air nailers, drills etc. I dont have a table saw, and dint really have room for one.
Here are the problems:
1. Larger pieces give me problems. Like making straight cut with the circular saw on a piece of ply or larger board.
Do I buy a clamp one straight edge, or a curcular saw sled, or what? Is buying precut pieces from a lumber yard the better choice here?
2. Handling larger pieces. Dont have room for a dedicated table. End up using a plastic picnic table, which is wobbly, and a BD folding stand, which is too small. Do I need to make a collapsible table, which will be a pain to store?
3. Joining. Dont have a system picked out and not sure which one will work for 95% of general joinery. Pocket screw jig, dowel and screw jig, biscuit joiner, routing for finger joints?

Look up Festool.. They have saw guides/tracks that will allow you to make precision cuts on large sheets of ply without the need for a table saw. They also have various jigs for making all of your joinery cuts. If you use their saws they make attachments that work with their vacuums so that you can keep your work space dust free.. Pretty cool stuff.

https://www.festoolusa.com
https://www.festoolusa.com/power-tools/track-saws/
https://www.festoolusa.com/power-tool-accessories/guide-rails/tracks

[JohnnyEgo]

I don't think he is ready to drop Festool money.
I say that having dropped thousands of dollars in Festool money.

[cableguy11]

Just and FYI for this thread..I am not sure how good of a price this is?

Kreg Jig K4 Pocket Hole System https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001DYFISG/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?tag=slicinc-20&ascsubtag=837c9d40e63011e698fb820935f116f70INT&ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER

[kpp80202]

ive been woodworking off and on for many years. Here are my thoughts:

1. Larger pieces give me problems. Like making straight cut with the circular saw on a piece of ply or larger board.
Do I buy a clamp one straight edge, or a curcular saw sled, or what? Is buying precut pieces from a lumber yard the better choice here?

You can get by with using a factory edge on a piece of MDF as a straightedge, and using a good quality circular saw with a good, sharp blade. Diablo blades are pretty good. I use a Festool rail system with great results for sheet stock, and a "suped-up" contractors table saw or vintage radial arm saw set up for rip and crosscuts in lumber, but those just make things easier, faster, and more repeatable. You can do the same with the straightedge.

2. Handling larger pieces. Dont have room for a dedicated table. End up using a plastic picnic table, which is wobbly, and a BD folding stand, which is too small. Do I need to make a collapsible table, which will be a pain to store?

I've sometimes put a sacrificial sheet of plywood on the garage floor to cut sheetstock. Works just fine and no wobble.

3. Joining. Dont have a system picked out and not sure which one will work for 95% of general joinery. Pocket screw jig, dowel and screw jig, biscuit joiner, routing for finger joints?

Biscuits and glue work great for edge joining. Kreg jig for pocket screws for joining butt to edge grain. And lapped joints for butt to butt (uncommon).

4. Finishing and staining. A can of poly is probably a great choice here, or should I brush? Staining always looks bad. Any hints on how to stain well?

Wipe on poly with rags works great. Just do multiple coats to build up a surface. Wipe on Danish oil also works great for getting color and sheen. A high quality pure carnauba wax is good for a real shine, but I usually go lower luster. I've had good, long term results with Danish oil even with bathroom cabinets.

5. Glue. White carpenter or the foaming gorilla types?

Basic yellow wood glue is great.

6. Any other tips you can share on making things easier?

In no particular order: Measure twice, double check, then cut. Also, use "story sticks" (where you make marks on a piece of scrap to measure distances) then you won't make a memory mistake. On important cuts with the circular saw, put the finished side down to avoid tear out. Taping the cut line can also reduce tear out. Don't sand past 220; there's no benefit. Make sure your saw blade is square to the saw base vertically and horizontally. Make test cuts on scrap whenever possible to check your setup.

Thank you.

My pleasure! Feel free to PM with any other questions, and good luck!

[Erni]

Thought I would say a special thanks for all the tips, tricks and recomendations.

Ended up buying drawers and cutting an IKEA carcas for the daughters closet.
Used the foam trick, with a melonite fence, some blue tape and a new 120 tooth blade. Smooth cuts, no chipping.

Coluld use a better square and need to figure out something better for the cutting work table.
But all in all nice and smooth.