Insurance?

[clodhopper]

Is CCW insurance worth it? And recommended providers? Was looking at USCCA but wondering if anyone had a better idea.

[funkymonkey1111]

This is one Tom Gresham says he uses on his show. He doesn't advertise for them, but instead just says he carries it

https://armedcitizensnetwork.org

[Great-Kazoo]

Interesting you started a thread as i was doing a web search a similar question was asked over on a site i was not familiar with from another CO resident.

Anyway.............................


Been reading up on a few different ones.
Wife and i attended a USLS "seminar" at Liberty range. The spousal unit while hesitant at first decided to attend since she too has some concerns about coverage if needed.
You'll read USLS was hard selling, or not hard selling their product. Neither of us felt pressured or did it seem they were hard selling us to SIGN RIGHT NOW!. If anything the spouse said it was worth the time and very informative.
I haven't committed to any one programs coverage. Curious what others think. Yes i could hope for the best and hire an attorney if self defense required it. But... we don't have $25-50 K + in reserve if we had to pay all cost.

Both 2nd call and armed citizen boast the NRA ins carrier on their site, the others do not


https://www.uslawshield.com/

https://ccwsafe.com/

http://www.secondcalldefense.org/

https://armedcitizensnetwork.org/

[Joe_K]

Interesting you started a thread as i was doing a web search a similar question was asked over on a site i was not familiar with from another CO resident.

Anyway.............................


Been reading up on a few different ones.
Wife and i attended a USLS "seminar" at Liberty range. The spousal unit while hesitant at first decided to attend since she too has some concerns about coverage if needed.
You'll read USLS was hard selling, or not hard selling their product. Neither of us felt pressured or did it seem they were hard selling us to SIGN RIGHT NOW!. If anything the spouse said it was worth the time and very informative.
I haven't committed to any one programs coverage. Curious what others think. Yes i could hope for the best and hire an attorney if self defense required it. But... we don't have $25-50 K + in reserve if we had to pay all cost.


https://www.uslawshield.com/

https://ccwsafe.com/

http://www.secondcalldefense.org/

https://armedcitizensnetwork.org/
Been a U.S. Law Shield member since 2013, I have nothing but good things to say. They cover you for ANY legal use of a Weapon, pen, knife, gun, vehicle.

Velocitas, Opprimere,
Violentia Operandi

[Great-Kazoo]

Been a U.S. Law Shield member since 2013, I have nothing but good things to say. They cover you for ANY legal use of a Weapon, pen, knife, gun, vehicle.

Velocitas, Opprimere,
Violentia Operandi


How much research did you do before signing with USLS? Would you say for "benefits" offered it was the better of others available. i do like it's coverage IF deadly force was used, not limiting you to a firearm being the only acceptable item.

[Irving]

How much coverage is available when the legality of your use of a deadly weapon is up for debate?

[Joe_K]

I attended multiple U.S. Law Shield presentations, from different people. I have several close friends who where members before me and after careful deliberation over the course of a few months signed up.

After signing up I called in to speak to someone about modifying my plan slightly and accidentally called the emergency #, as in the "Holy crap I just smoke checked that asshole, I need a lawyer number" after it ringing once I realized my mistake and hung up. Within no more than 1 minute they called back asking if everything was ok. I fortunately have not had to call them in an actual but I am confident in the services they provide. No legal fees cap. Their lawyers are fiream/self defense attorneys, not divorce, or medical malpractice lawyers. You are covered either in the state of your residence and any person under age 17 that lives at your address, or one can elect multi state coverage and they are in something like 40 states.

Velocitas, Opprimere,
Violentia Operandi

[Fentonite]

I carry USCCA. Their coverage is dramatically improved over their initial offering several years ago. Seemed the best actual, usable bang-for-the-buck over the competition. I like having the name and number of my attorney in my wallet, should I ever need him.

[Irving]

What kind of money are we talking about here?

Both for coverage limits, and policy premiums?

[Great-Kazoo]

I carry USCCA. Their coverage is dramatically improved over their initial offering several years ago. Seemed the best actual, usable bang-for-the-buck over the competition. I like having the name and number of my attorney in my wallet, should I ever need him.

Are you single, married, travel out of state, is there one item specifically that swayed you to them?
There is a comparison chart on one site that has me leaning towards one, but... Comparison charts mean squat If the need calls for representation. It's the super fine print and the company's ability to deny coverage, based on their interpretation of said event.

[GilpinGuy]

I am on the USLS web site right now and was about to sign up but thought I'd search here first for some info. Glad I did. Hopefully, this thread gets some traction.

[GilpinGuy]

Looks like USLS gives you a month free if you pay for a year up front (instead of paying monthly). Plus you can use promo code "TNTLLC" at checkout and get 2 more months free.

[Fentonite]

My understanding, when I enrolled, was that USLS simply covered aggressive legal representation, but I could not find anything that indicated they would actually cover fines or civil awards in the event that their legal representation did not prevail in court. USCCA covers legal representation in both civil and criminal proceedings, an immediate legal retainer, bail bond, coverage of criminal and civil damages should I lose in court, as well as payment for every day I'm in court and firearm theft insurance. When I signed up, this was more than I could find offered by any other organization. Things may or may not have changed since then, do your due diligence.

Hopefully I'll never need this coverage. I also imagine that just having this coverage will cause some attorney somewhere to claim that I CCW'd with intent of shooting someone. As ignorant as that is, we all know the sentiment is out there. I carry full insurance coverage on all my vehicles, not expecting to be in a wreck, but on the off chance that I'm ever in a collision, I'm protected. I use my vehicles for routine transportation, not for possible defense of me or my wife. Although I think the odds of needing car insurance far outweigh those of needing CCW insurance, the potentially life-changing ramifications of using my CCW make CCW insurance seem to be simply common sense.

[Rumline]

I haven't looked into this seriously but I remember reading that one thing to look for is if the insurance will reimburse you for the costs of representation or whether they will pay the costs upfront for you. I thought this was an important distinction because you usually have to drop $5k before an attorney will do anything for you, and I don't know if they're going to take Visa. Even if that's not a problem, if the insurance doesn't pay until your Not Guilty verdict then you still have to come up with the $20k+ until they decide to reimburse.

Just a suggestion of something to look for in the policies.

[Dave_L]

Something you might look into is a personal umbrella policy via your insurance agent. That will cover the civil side for you. As long as its not a criminal activity, they'll cover you. However, I don't know if they'd defend you for a criminal case so you may have to bundle USLS and an umbrella if USLS doesn't cover the civil side.

[Great-Kazoo]

I'm surprised there's little interest in this topic, or even someone suggesting an alternative choice.

[GilpinGuy]

Yeah, I'm surprised too. But I posted something similar in 2013 and got zero replies, so I shouldn't be I guess.
https://www.ar-15.co/threads/11405-I-need-a-pro-gun-attorney-please

[O2HeN2]

This is what I have:

https://armedcitizensnetwork.org/

O2

[CS1983]

I'm surprised there's little interest in this topic, or even someone suggesting an alternative choice.

I've subscribed to the thread but haven't replied thus far because I have 0% knowledge on this. I wonder if others don't reply because they're interested but don't feel like they can contribute.

Definitely interested in the comparisons of offerings. Worst fear as regards CCW is having to use it and getting Zimmermaned. If I ever have to protect myself or another, I hope it's against a drunk frat boy named Bryce or Hunter with a previous conviction for violence or something.

[crays]

I'm surprised there's little interest in this topic, or even someone suggesting an alternative choice.

I think there are a lot of members passively following this.



I've subscribed to the thread but haven't replied thus far because I have 0% knowledge on this. I wonder if others don't reply because they're interested but don't feel like they can contribute.
See Above


Definitely interested in the comparisons of offerings. Worst fear as regards CCW is having to use it and getting Zimmermaned. If I ever have to protect myself or another, I hope it's against a drunk frat boy named Bryce or Hunter with a previous conviction for violence or something.
So you can can face the very well financed legal team, paid for by his wealthy parents?

[CS1983]

No, cus undoubtedly Rev. Sharpton and the fine folks at the NAACP would have that covered for a poor black guy's family too. Rather, public opinion is less in favor of getting unduly emotional and the criminal trial (if there was one) would be more likely to be in my favor (which is to say, just).

The best outcome would be that people don't do dumb crap which makes them get shot due to inducing fear-for-life in another.

Most parents aren't wealthy enough to afford the sort of legal team you describe though.

ETA: question: dash cams are pretty cheap -- any idea on body cams?

[Shooter45]

I carry a gun every day for work, but no way I'm covered when out of work (even on work is questionable). To me, if I need to draw and pull the trigger there is no doubt that "I'm in a fear of my life or that of others." Great idea to have insurance just like car or home, but it's not worth it to me. Could be my famous last words but the chance most common carriers become engaged is so minimal I just don't find it worthwhile. As mentioned earlier through numerous posts, there are a few very popular companies that provide coverage but I don't find it worthwhile.

[CS1983]

So is there a consensus on the two and which might be better in general?

[Great-Kazoo]

So is there a consensus on the two and which might be better in general?

I'm waiting for my ins agent to get back with actual coverage from a civil suite. I'm covered BUT... she want's the ins co to give her something in writing regarding the wording in our policy. Thankfully the agency has gun friendly staff, who have also been looking at coverage.

[KS63]

US Law Shield member here for a few years. If I go out of state, I just call, say what state I'm visiting and pay $7 for coverage for a whole month. Basically I'm double covered. I can also request info on that states CCW laws that arrives in a packet in the mail. Great stuff.

[Great-Kazoo]

And we are talking about realistically what, a 1 in 100,000 chance this is going to happen

And that 1 chance could cost you everything, especially in today's age of LAW SUE craziness. Throw a gun in to the equation in denver, boulder or other less than gun friendly DA. Myself i'll pay now to avoid unable to afford the bill later.

That 1 chance....... Personally knowing a clean MVR for 40 year driver. Who happen to hit a drunk that wandered out in the street from in front of a camper van. That driver felt the way you do. Why do i need other than basic liability was his belief. His insurance barely covered the amount said drunk was going after.
Today he's a full coverage believer. YMMV.

[KS63]

I think I pay around $120 per year for the coverage. Peace of mind. Take my money.

[Irving]

What if your five rental homes are owned by your LLC?

[whitbaby]

I sat in on a $15, 3-hour US Law Shield infomercial at Bristlecone last year.
They use every scare tactic in the book to get you to sign up...RIGHT THEN!
They did have a good Q&A from the attendees though, and answered most every question directly.
There was a Lakewood cop, an attorney or two presenting all the horror $tories, and a good-ol-boy presenter.

I just signed up with USCCA for $147/yr...their cheapest of three offerings.

[Great-Kazoo]

I sat in on a $15, 3-hour US Law Shield infomercial at Bristlecone last year.
They use every scare tactic in the book to get you to sign up...RIGHT THEN!
They did have a good Q&A from the attendees though, and answered most every question directly.
There was a Lakewood cop, an attorney or two presenting all the horror $tories, and a good-ol-boy presenter.

I just signed up with USCCA for $147/yr...their cheapest of three offerings.

Wow, they charged you? That must have been Bristlecone's fee. Up here they run then at no charge, didn't hard sell, scare tactics etc.

[Teufelhund]

I have USCCA. While I think this is the least likely insurance I'll ever need, I'm aware (from personal experience) the legal proceedings following a self-defense situation can amount to a significant sum. I didn't shop all the competing insurance companies, but I like that USCCA just gives you a single number to call if you need help. With that one call, they'll find you a gun-friendly local attorney from their database who will contact you. USCCA will also post your bail, immediately cut a check to reimburse you for any expenses you may have already incurred, and cover the subsequent legal costs (commensurate with your level of coverage). My peace of mind is worth $30/mo.

[whitbaby]

I sent them my $$ weeks ago and haven't received any written materials
or usual stuff with insurances.

All I've received is promos to buy MORE of their materials. Pretty
underwhelming so far...

PS:
Just got paperwork in mail today...three weeks after they got my $$

[Irving]

$30/month isn't terrible; I spend more on beer. Is that the price for a whole year?

[BladesNBarrels]

Insurance is a profitable business. In some aspects it is a form of gambling, you only win if your life sucks; but the house mathematically has the odds stacked against you. That said, some people are more vulnerable than others.

you could even file bankruptcy to discharge a judgment


Standard disclaimer: As always, this is not legal advice. Hire an attorney to receive legal advice.

Not being an attorney, I can't offer legal advice.
My understanding is medical injuries pass through bankruptcy and you are still responsible.
Seems like a gun discharge lawsuit probably is going to involve medical injury.

[Irving]

Blades, I'm not an attorney either, but I believe you're confusing personal (first party) medical bills with third party medical bills. I've never personally injured someone, then declared bankruptcy though, so I can't be certain.

[BladesNBarrels]

Irving, I am not sure of the difference.
The situation I saw was a while back. A young driver seriously injured a person in a car he hit.
The young man, over 21, declared bankruptcy.
At the first appearance, the bankruptcy judge or administrator informed him that the medical costs of the injured party would survive the bankruptcy and he would be liable.
That stuck with me.
I was just thinking that the most likely reason to be in court after a shooting would be to respond to a lawsuit by the injured survivor.

[Irving]

Thanks for clarifying. I had assumed you were confusing first party (your own medical bills) with third party (someone else's bills), but you were not. That's something we should all remember then. Thanks for the story.

[Teufelhund]

$30/month isn't terrible; I spend more on beer. Is that the price for a whole year?

They have different levels of coverage (Silver $13, Gold $22, or Platinum $30), and you can save a little bit by paying annually instead of monthly.

whitbaby, if you are talking about USCCA, I'd give them a call. I received materials about a week after joining.

[spqrzilla]

All I can say is that I read the fine details and exclusions on coverage, for the USCCA and US Law Shield programs, and people here think that more is covered that actually is.

[Teufelhund]

All I can say is that I read the fine details and exclusions on coverage, for the USCCA and US Law Shield programs, and people here think that more is covered that actually is.

What are you referring to, specifically?

Here is the Exclusions section of the USCCA coverage form:

https://d3rmvquxnxa9wt.cloudfront.net/pdf/guides/USCCA_MemberResourceGuide.pdf

2. Exclusions
This insurance does not apply to:
a. Criminal Acts
Bodily injury” or “property damage” arising out of a criminal act by any insured or caused
by or during any criminal act of any insured. This exclusion does not apply to“bodily
injury”or “property damage” resulting from an “act of self-defense”.
b. Contractual Liability
“Bodily injury” or “property damage” for which any insured is obligated to pay “damages”
due to the assumption of liability in a contract or agreement.
c. Alcohol or Intoxicating Substances
“Bodily injury” or “property damage” arising out of the use of any firearm or other weapon
by any insured who was under the influence of any intoxicating substance(s), narcotic(s),
controlled substance(s) or alcoholic beverage(s).
d. Employer’s Liability
(1) “Bodily injury” to an “employee” of any insured arising out of and in the course of:
(a) Employment by any insured; or
(b) Performing duties related to the conduct of the insured’s business.
(2) “Property damage” to any property of an “employee” of the insured arising out of and in
the course of:
(a) Employment by the insured; or
(b) Performing duties related to the conduct of the insured’s business.
e. Non-Insureds
The use of a firearm or other weapon by anyone other than an insured except as
specifically stated in Section I – Coverages item 1.a.(2).
f. Professional Services
(1) “Bodily injury” or “property damage” due to the rendering of or failure to render any
professional service; or
(2) The negligent:
(a) Employment;
(b) Investigation;
(c) Supervision; or
(d) Retention;
of any professional for whom any insured is or ever was legally responsible.
This exclusion applies even if the claims against any insured allege negligence or other
wrong doing in the supervision, hiring, employment, training or monitoring of others by
the insured, if the “occurrence” or the incident arising from a “covered legal liability” which
caused the “bodily injury” or “property damage” involved any professional service.
g. War
“Bodily injury” or “property damage”, however caused, arising, directly or indirectly,
out of:
(1) War, including undeclared or civil war;
(2) Warlike action by a military force, including action in hindering or defending against
an actual or expected attack, by any government, sovereign or other authority using
military personnel or other agents; or
(3) Insurrection, rebellion, revolution, usurped power, or action taken by governmental
authority in hindering or defending against any of these.
h. Occupational Use
“Bodily injury” or “property damage” arising out of any “insured’s” business or occupation in
providing security or safety services for compensation or a fee that involves the required use
21
or carrying of a firearm or other weapon.
i. Damage To Property
“Property damage” to:
(1) Property you own, rent, or occupy, including any costs or expenses incurred by you, or
any other person, organization or entity, for repair, replacement,
enhancement, restoration or maintenance of such property for any reason, including
prevention of injury to a person or damage to another’s property;
(2) Property loaned to you;
(3) Personal property in the care, custody or control of an insured;
j. Electronic Data
“Damages” arising out of the loss of, loss of use of, damage to, corruption of, inability to
access, or inability to manipulate electronic data.
As used in this exclusion, electronic data means information, facts or programs stored as or
on, created or used on, or transmitted to or from computer software, including systems and
applications software, hard or floppy disks, CD-ROMS, tapes, drives, cells, data processing
devices or any other media which are used with electronically controlled equipment.
k. Mysterious disappearance
“Damages” arising out of the unexplained or mysterious disappearance of a firearm or other
weapon.

[Jefe]

So a funny thing happened... I Googled for self-defense insurance and a forum for CO gun owners is one of the search returns... So now I'm a new member of a forum for a State in which I live. I'm not a "forums guy", but this thread struck a chord.

I'm an ACLDN Member. After researching the various options, it's the better choice in my opinion.

1. $135 for the first year, $95 per year after that. And that money is going in to an account for yourself as well as other members. So it only gets bigger as time goes on.

2. It's not insurance, it's a membership. And the benefits are as follows....

3. Upon joining you are given 8 DVDs and Massad Ayoob's Deadly Force: Understanding Your Right To Self Defense. So, they're giving you educational material that's admissible in court that will add to your defense case. Yeah, I know. You'll have to read a book as part of your training instead of banging out pairs in to that silhouette...

4. The Advisory Board. Big perk to me. I don't know if any of you know any of the people on that Board, but I've trained with Tom Givens and received his Advanced Instructor Certification and all I can say is I want that guy on my Subject Matter Expert legal team. Not to mention, John Farnam, a local CO Sheriff (just a bonus for us CO people), Manny Kapelsohn, a homicide detective (And the guy that is probably one of the most widespread "live" person silhouettes on the market. I've personally shot his target I don't know how many times.) as well as Massad Ayoob, Jim Fleming, and Denis Tueller (Of the oh so famous Tueller Drill). Those are people that are going to examine your "claim" and you have access to them as part of being in the Network. And since you read that book instead of banging out pairs, you actually feel confident your actions were that of the reasonable citizen and not Captain Save a Ho, so you're case is already looking better.

5. Now the money. One phone call and you get $10,000 to retain an attorney, $25,000 in bail money, and all legal fees (up to $450,000 as of this writing) to defend your case. And that includes SMEs. That's an add-on for some of the other policies out there.

6. You get to pick your attorney. And the Network has got quite a few if you don't know of one you'd like to have yet. Which on a side note, selecting your attorney first would be a good idea since you'll likely be detained and wish you'd done your homework.

7. Continuing education. The newsletter is very informative and makes for good furthering education.

I realize we all have obligations. Bills, kids, that shiny new LWRC 6.8 SPC II on the wall, you know... Life... But...

You carry a gun and spare magazine on your belt (Everybody is carrying a spare mag, right? Everyone nod your head yes.) for a deadly encounter that you know may never happen, but if it does, the stakes are so high, (you know, your life) that you have a firearm on your person. But you're unwilling to throw down $100 per year for something that may never happen, but could ruin your life in court? Guys, it's Jeff Cooper's Problems 1 and 2 right there in your face. You solved Problem 1 with training, now solve Problem 2 with your wallet. I will admit that I didn't have insurance for years, but now that I do, I look back and acknowledge just how stupid that was. And for the people that think their actions will be read perfectly by the prosecutor in the evidence and eyewitness testimony you won't need an attorney cause the responding police officer will be high fiving you for your superior judgement and marksmanship, think again... You're still going to be detained. You're still going to be questioned. I want an attorney present. Someone who does this Problem 2 stuff for a living. Do you want a commercial airline pilot that flies that Airbus every week of his life, or the guy that does it as a hobby every once in awhile? Give me the professional. Any day.

Get insurance. Do your research before you buy. Everyone's situation is different and one may work better for you than it would for me, but upon looking at the 4 or so "popular" insurers mentioned in this thread, I still think ACLDN is the best. I'm not endorsing or plugging them for a kickback, I'm just a happy customer. I've never had to use them. I don't ever want to have to use them. But, I have spoken with people on the Board as well as Marty Hayes and these violent encounters that we think don't happen, do. Tom Givens to date has had 65 students out of about 7,000+ have to use deadly force. And that's just the ones he knows about. Marty had a call to the "Bat Phone" (my term) just a couple weeks ago from one of the Network members because they too had to defend themselves.

If you think it won't happen to you, guess what...

There was a lot more I wrote in response to this subject, but I know your eyes are already starting to gloss over. And because it's not cool and has zero round count people pass it over, but make no mistake, it is important and deserves some time and effort on everyone's part. And yes, this is the Internet, so everyone's got an opinion (God bless you Internet Commandos out there in the basements of parentals across this Great Land), or an uncle's best friend's girlfriend's father's brother's son that posted about something to do with getting out of a court case cause the County Prosecutor saw their superior prowess with a firearm and didn't prosecute. And yes, George Zimmerman was a complete idiot. Monumental. But once that lady on the major news network, or one of the Reverends takes up your incident for social justice, you're gonna wish you had the best attorney you could find. Get some friggin' insurance!

That's it. Soap box over.

Now about those pairs...

[Irving]

Well stated. Exactly what this thread needs in reference to exactly how much a policy is, and exactly what is offered for what one is paying. Very compelling write up.

[CS1983]

Sounds like ACLDN is sort of a LSA (Legal Savings Account) with cost sharing via risk pooling, on the order of healthcare sharing "ministries".

[Singlestack]

Sounds like ACLDN is sort of a LSA (Legal Savings Account) with cost sharing via risk pooling, on the order of healthcare sharing "ministries".

Thats how I think about it, too. I have ACLDN, and for me it seemed to be the best option. I read the monthly newsletter cover to cover and often find useful information in it. The expertise of the management and staff is "best of breed" in my opinion.

[Ghost In The Fog]

Get insurance. Do your research before you buy. Everyone's situation is different and one may work better for you than it would for me,
If you think it won't happen to you, guess what...


Really good post. Well stated and good information.
I'm new here and saw this and wanted to reply. This is an important subject and I feel overlooked by the concealed carry community.
I chose CCW Safe. Did a bunch of research, wrote emails and even called them. I have been a member since April and I have not received one call or email for "additional" products or training like some of the other services do. They were hard to get info on, but once I did the choice was clear. I am more than willing to pay for this service I hope to never use. No matter how unlikely it is I learned first hand a long time ago to never say never.

[Gcompact30]

I also use this coverage,



I carry USCCA. Their coverage is dramatically improved over their initial offering several years ago. Seemed the best actual, usable bang-for-the-buck over the competition. I like having the name and number of my attorney in my wallet, should I ever need him.

[Great-Kazoo]

Really good post. Well stated and good information.
I'm new here and saw this and wanted to reply. This is an important subject and I feel overlooked by the concealed carry community.
I chose CCW Safe. Did a bunch of research, wrote emails and even called them. I have been a member since April and I have not received one call or email for "additional" products or training like some of the other services do. They were hard to get info on, but once I did the choice was clear. I am more than willing to pay for this service I hope to never use. No matter how unlikely it is I learned first hand a long time ago to never say never.


Signed up with them in May. Outside of their updates for someone they defended, or a few tech tips, nothing

[FMJKT]

This is a great thread guys, thanks for the good discussion and valuable information.

[XJ]

This isn't for CO of course, but still is a pretty good comparison of some of the plans' features.

http://vcdl.org/Legal-Plans

[Gcompact30]

I have USCCA

[LigersRCool]

I was just thinking about insurance and came across this post. Thanks all for the information. I have been clicking around the net and saw U.S. LawShield posted a comparison chart of the different companies and their offerings.

Comparison Chart
Looks like they got it from here https://www.concealedcarry.com/self-defense-gun-owner-insurance-programs-compared/?utm_source=MailingList&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=More+Than+USCCA+Or+NRA...

[bw88350]

Never thought about that...good info

[whitbaby]

I heard there were Homeowners policies that offer an umbrella rider for shootings for these issues... Anyone else hear this?

[Great-Kazoo]

I heard there were Homeowners policies that offer an umbrella rider for shootings for these issues... Anyone else hear this?

Yes and no. it depends how the policy is written. However it doesn't cover use of deadly force, self defense as worded. I had our agent (who is very pro 2A / gun owner look over my policy and a few other options) Which i why we went with a separate co.