View Full Version : Police accidentally kill woman in training exercise
Hope I didn't misrepresent the incident with my title. If I did, perhaps someone could change the title to be more appropriate?
Link....
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2017/02/22/2-cops-charged-florida-womans-accidental-shooting-death/98269012/
"It just sounds like a stupid mistake. Unfortunately, stuff happens and people die."
William Glucksman
Sad. We are all one mistake away from tragedy, and the reality is that the mistake may not be ours.
I saw that quote and thought it was pretty stupid. First I thought it was from a member of law enforcement and thought it was really stupid but then I realized it was a local citizen so I just kind of ignored it.
Definitely a tragic event for all involved. Obviously for the victim but has to be a bad deal for the guy that pulled the trigger as well.
clodhopper
02-23-2017, 09:16
"Why did he aim the gun at her and not off to the side," said William Glucksman, a part-time city resident.
Better question is why was a loaded gun used for training? There is a reason for the inexpensive colorful training props.
I couldn't tell from the article if the shots fired were live ammunition or if it was that "simunition" stuff.
Either way, probably not the best idea when civilians are involved. Should have been "blue guns" only if you ask me.
68Charger
02-23-2017, 09:36
This happened last year (August, it looks like from the article)... tried to find discussion about it from back then, but can't find right key words...
But I recall having a discussion on here about it.
I couldn't tell from the article if the shots fired were live ammunition or if it was that "simunition" stuff.
Either way, probably not the best idea when civilians are involved. Should have been "blue guns" only if you ask me.
That article was pretty weak and hard to read. The only information was at the end of the article and had to get past all the ads.
Tragic
Great-Kazoo
02-23-2017, 09:53
This happened last year (August, it looks like from the article)... tried to find discussion about it from back then, but can't find right key words...
But I recall having a discussion on here about it.
A discussion? Anything LE related here, rarely stays a discussion long .
This happened last year (August, it looks like from the article)... tried to find discussion about it from back then, but can't find right key words...
But I recall having a discussion on here about it.
Sorry. I thought this was a recent event. Apparently, reading comprehension isn't high on my list of skills I guess. Lol.
Sorry. I thought this was a recent event. Apparently, reading comprehension isn't high on my list of skills I guess. Lol.
Who can blame you with that article? So many words, so little truth (or info).
Who can blame you with that article? So many words, so little truth (or info).
No wonder the proles get all riled up... with this so called media.. its intentionally filled with half-truths or lies or both.
KevDen2005
02-23-2017, 10:28
That article was pretty weak and hard to read. The only information was at the end of the article and had to get past all the ads.
Tragic
Agreed. I just don't understand how journalists get jobs. It doesn't really go into any information, jumps around, is hard to read, does from arrest to a previous settlement option, the talks about what convictions could look like. Doesn't go into any detail about the incident, training, what was occurring, etc. Shoot/Don't Shoot could be a ton of different types of scenarios.
Agreed. I just don't understand how journalists get jobs. It doesn't really go into any information, jumps around, is hard to read, does from arrest to a previous settlement option, the talks about what convictions could look like. Doesn't go into any detail about the incident, training, what was occurring, etc. Shoot/Don't Shoot could be a ton of different types of scenarios.
Makes me think its written that way on purpose. Not incompetence. The way its written will probably make it show up as a gun crime statistic to be used later. Just my 2 cents. ..
Agreed. I just don't understand how journalists get jobs. It doesn't really go into any information, jumps around, is hard to read, does from arrest to a previous settlement option, the talks about what convictions could look like. Doesn't go into any detail about the incident, training, what was occurring, etc. Shoot/Don't Shoot could be a ton of different types of scenarios.
Not defending today's "journalists" in any way, but many articles are now produced by bots. It costs less and fills up the page.
KevDen2005
02-23-2017, 11:24
Makes me think its written that way on purpose. Not incompetence. The way its written will probably make it show up as a gun crime statistic to be used later. Just my 2 cents. ..
I have no doubt it will be used as a statistic. And yes I'm sure they do some of that to help support their agenda. But read any news article, it doesn't have to be gun related. There will be numerous typos, sentence structures that read poorly, an inability to get thoughts and ideas across. I feel like if you're a halfway decent writer you should be able to blow the competition out of the water.
KevDen2005
02-23-2017, 11:24
And I apologize now for derailing the thread....please continue.
And I apologize now for derailing the thread....please continue.
I think it was derailed before it even started LMAO
Horrible situation for everyone involved. I'm confused on how she was shot several times though? I'm sure it was journalist exaggerating
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Supppsed to be shooting blanks? What happened to the homeless people they were using as th bad guys.
Shoot the unarmed crackhead not the librarian.
I'm relatively certain the fatal rounds were not simunitions. I could explain but the simplest answer is none of the simuntions I've used penetrate like a pistol round and full load pistol ammunition isn't all that great when it comes to killing people. Simunitions ranges are normally very strictly run to insure live ammunition isn't present, and several brands require a ramped block in the pistol to assist in feeding the weaker recoil of the sim rounds. This block is also meant to prevent the chambering of live rounds. I can't imagine anyone working on a sim range without eye protection and gloves. Simunitions are weak but they will break skin and if you are hit at close range (under 10 feet) on bare skin, you will bleed, bruise and have swelling. It hurts a lot more than any paint ball.
My guess is that this incident was caused in the same way that many "dry fire" accidentals are caused. Complacency in checking for a loaded weapon. It only needs to happen once and your "dry fire" isn't so dry any more. Many departments have policy that prevents "dry firing" when not on a range or under the supervision of a firearms instructor because of these types of incidents.
The article says she was shot six times. You'd think after the first two or three rounds the shooter might have realized something wasn't right. Just a weird deal all the way around.
Another article about this tragedy.
http://weaponsman.com/?p=39284
That article is internally contradictory. First they say:
Citizen Mary Knowlton of Punta Gorda, FL, a retired librarian, was playing “cop” in an exercise designed to show how little time a cop has to make the shoot/no-shoot decision. Officer Lee Coel was playing felon, and he got the drop on Knowlton, firing several shots (some stories have suggested six) from his training/simulator pistol.
Except, it wasn’t his training pistol. It was his service pistol, as everyone in the room immediately realized, in shock. (With the apparent exception of Coel, or he’d have stopped at one shot).
And then immediately following that they quote the USA Today article:
On Aug. 9, Mary Knowlton, a 73-year-old retired librarian, was participating in a police night hosted by the Punta Gorda Chamber of Commerce when Punta Gorda police officer Lee Coel, 28, shot and killed her with a weapon meant for training.
(emphasis added in both quotes)
This seemed to be a little better article:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3736276/Husband-Mary-Knowlton-recalls-horrifying-moment-wife-killed-cop-Lee-Coel.html
He loaded duty ammunition rather than blanks or simunition rounds. This obviously begins as a training failure as live ammunition should never be present in a sim range. The article states that Coel shot Knowlton twice, once in the shoulder and once in the chest. Her husband of 55 years was 10 feet away when he witnessed his wife's death. She was chosen at random to help with the exercise.
It sort of makes it hard for me to breath when I read this stuff. Life is sometimes very painful.
Hug someone you love and Be Safe.
This happened last year (August, it looks like from the article)... tried to find discussion about it from back then, but can't find right key words...
But I recall having a discussion on here about it.
Yep. I think I may have started that thread, but can't find it.
ETA: Went through my posts around that time and couldn't find anything. Maybe I'm mis-remembering. I've had anesthesia since then....twice.
GilpinGuy
02-23-2017, 23:12
For the grammarly retentive, is this a "negligent" shooting or an "accidental" shooting?
Not to make light of the outcome at all, but we gun types like to make distinctions about these kind of things.
For the grammarly retentive, is this a "negligent" shooting or an "accidental" shooting?
Not to make light of the outcome at all, but we gun types like to make distinctions about these kind of things.
The only person who can answer whether the discharge was intentional or unintentional is the off-duty LAPD officer who discharged the weapon. I haven't seen any statements yet that can be directly attributed to that officer.
GilpinGuy
02-23-2017, 23:39
I'm in no way baiting the MODFATHER, but this is weird one to pin down. The officer was obviously careless (negligent) - he didn't know what was in his chamber. But he also deliberately pulled the trigger for a purpose other than shooting (accidental). I'm just a grammar weirdo I guess.
I'm in no way baiting the MODFATHER, but this is weird one to pin down. The officer was obviously careless (negligent) - he didn't know what was in his chamber. But he also deliberately pulled the trigger for a purpose other than shooting (accidental). I'm just a grammar weirdo I guess.
I apologize for the confusion in my post (#27). My post was intended for the thread on the Anaheim shooting and not related to the shooting in Punta Gorda, FL. That I posted this comment in the wrong thread is my error and I again apologize for any confusion that has resulted from my error.
As for the training death in Punta Gorda, FL, I stand by my other posts in this thread. Officer Coel bears the majority of the responsibility for this death as he alone loaded the pistol used to kill Mrs. Knowlton. As this was a training death, the members of the training staff and ultimately the department as a whole shares some responsibility for her death. According to the news stories, the city of Punta Gorda moved quickly to pay a 2 million dollar settlement to her family and the state of Florida has criminally charged both Officer Coel and the Chief of Police in the matter. Nothing can provide true justice for Mrs. Knowlton's death, but so far it appears that all that can be done under our system of laws is being done.
As to the issue of accidental or negligence, I will try not to comment other than to say that as of today, I am more inclined to see shootings as intentional or unintentional. I prefer these terms as they do not necessarily convey ill intent so much as they describe the willful decisions made by the shooter. Intentional shootings can be wrong and criminal. Unintentional shootings, while rare, could actually be beneficial. In the case of the Punta Gorda shooting, Officer Coel intentionally fired his pistol. If the rounds in the pistol had been blanks rather than actual rounds, we would not be discussing it and Mrs. Knowlton would not have been murdered. The discharge was not negligent because the pistol was fired, but was wrong because of the ammunition that was fired. As for the Anaheim shooting, I believe the investigation has just begun and I will withhold judgment until more information is available.
I hope this post doesn't come off as hair splitting. I believe that actions have consequences and that true justice awaits each and everyone of us. May God have mercy on us.
Be safe.
GilpinGuy
02-24-2017, 00:54
Good response. I did mean to hair split because so many times we hear gun guys freak and say "It was not an accidental discharge....it was a negligent discharge!" Fine line in this case. Both? Unless he intentionally murdered the woman, of course, but I seriously doubt that.
I feel for both the deceased and the officer here. This is a vocabulary thing. Language is important.
I'm relatively certain the fatal rounds were not simunitions. I could explain but the simplest answer is none of the simuntions I've used penetrate like a pistol round and full load pistol ammunition isn't all that great when it comes to killing people. Simunitions ranges are normally very strictly run to insure live ammunition isn't present, and several brands require a ramped block in the pistol to assist in feeding the weaker recoil of the sim rounds. This block is also meant to prevent the chambering of live rounds. I can't imagine anyone working on a sim range without eye protection and gloves. Simunitions are weak but they will break skin and if you are hit at close range (under 10 feet) on bare skin, you will bleed, bruise and have swelling. It hurts a lot more than any paint ball.
I agree. I've been shot many times with 9mm and 5.56 simunition at very close range. The only time I saw one break the skin was when I got hit between my fingers (forgot to put my gloves back on before the exercise began). Even then, it didn't penetrate but just split it a little.
...I got hit between my fingers...
Is that an "E" zone hit on the new IPSC target? :)
O2
I agree. I've been shot many times with 9mm and 5.56 simunition at very close range. The only time I saw one break the skin was when I got hit between my fingers (forgot to put my gloves back on before the exercise began). Even then, it didn't penetrate but just split it a little.
I think that's a move made popular in western movies where you shoot a guy in the hand to disarm him.
I think that's a move made popular in western movies where you shoot a guy in the hand to disarm him.
That's pretty much it. Most of the rest of me was behind cover. So he shot me in the face (goggles) and my grip hand.
Is that an "E" zone hit on the new IPSC target? :) O2
Should be. Hurt like a mother. Not a mistake you make twice.
Terrible accident. Hopefully they invest in better training materials and procedures. Happening right in front of her husband is mind blowing.
Florida Cop Who Fatally Shot Retiree Fired (http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/msn/florida-cop-who-fatally-shot-retiree-fired/ar-AAo6zu4?ocid=spartandhp)
The Florida police officer who fatally shot a 73-year-old retiree during a public training exercise last year is out of a job.
Lee Coel, who joined the Punta Gorda Police Department in 2014, was fired effective Friday, according to the city's disciplinary decision letter obtained by NBC News.
The letter says Coel, 28, can appeal the decision and is also entitled to a liberty interest hearing, in which he can attempt to clear his name in a public setting.
Coel's firing comes two weeks after he was charged (http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/florida-police-chief-officer-charged-fatal-shooting-retiree-during-training-n725221) with felony manslaughter with a firearm in connection with the August incident that claimed the life of retired librarian Mary Knowlton. He faces up to 30 years in prison and a $10,000 fine if convicted.
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