View Full Version : Shootout over the Army's new $580 million handgun
Shootout over the Army's new $580 million handgun (http://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/shootout-over-the-armys-new-dollar580-million-handgun/ar-AAnGGTD?li=BBnb7Kz)
Since the first Glock was designed and built by an Austrian curtain-rod manufacturer, Gaston Glock, in 1982, the sleek weapon has become the most popular handgun in America among both cops and criminals. In fact, the company claims that some 65 percent of U.S. police departments (https://us.glock.com/products/sector/law-enforcement) use Glocks, often the lightweight Glock 19 with its 15-round magazine.
But when the Army decided to replace the M9 Beretta, the sidearm that’s been on the hips of soldiers for the past 30 years, it bypassed Smith & Wesson and Glock and handed a potential $580 million contract for its Modular Handgun System (MHS) to Sig Sauer. The German-controlled company will manufacture the Sig Sauer P320 in New Hampshire.
However, as Bloomberg Businessweek writer Paul Barrett made clear in his 2012 book Glock: The Rise of America’s Gun (http://www.npr.org/2013/02/01/170752391/how-the-glock-became-americas-weapon-of-choice), Glock doesn’t like to lose. It has filed a protest with the General Accounting Office, contesting the awarding of the contract to Sig Sauer.
The basis for contesting the contract is not clear from the filing, but by law, the GAO has 100 days from a bid protest filing to render a decision on whether the procurement process was flawed, so a judgment is due by early June.
The attorney for Glock was not immediately available for comment. But the website Bearing Arms says, “The fact Glock is protesting the decision strongly suggests that the company developed a ‘modular mystery Glock’ (https://bearingarms.com/bob-o/2017/02/28/glock-files-protest-armys-decision-select-sig-armys-next-pistol/) that has not yet been seen by the public. None of Glock’s existing handgun designs come close to being ‘modular.’”
This could be interesting.
.455_Hunter
03-02-2017, 02:44
But, but, but, Perfection....
I think they both suck.
Nothing wrong with the M9A3 that Beretta promoted, but was summarily rejected as not cool and trendy enough.
If I was a Commander, I would make sure my PBO kept misplacing the turn-in paperwork for our M9s.
Aloha_Shooter
03-02-2017, 04:02
But, but, but, Perfection....
I think they both suck.
Nothing wrong with the M9A3 that Beretta promoted, but was summarily rejected as not cool and trendy enough.
If I was a Commander, I would make sure my PBO kept misplacing the turn-in paperwork for our M9s.
I'd dispute that. The M9 is a nice design, good mag capacity and easy to clean, but sucks horribly for people with smaller hands. The new configurable design not only lets them customize the grips for the shooters but provides a transition path from 9x19 mm to a more powerful round.
Bailey Guns
03-02-2017, 07:21
Exactly what Aloha said. The M9 is far too big for most shooters with even averaged sized hands. Not just women, either. A person needs large hands to properly grip that gun. Other than that, function and durability seem to be on par with most other quality, modern guns.
It's all about SAFETY Boys...[facepalm]
"The P320 maximizes peace of mind with a robust safety system. Never again will you need to pull the trigger to disassemble your pistol."
It's all about SAFETY Boys...[facepalm]
"The P320 maximizes peace of mind with a robust safety system. Never again will you need to pull the trigger to disassemble your pistol."
LOL not the dreaded trigger! God forbid we should have it drilled into our heads that we drop a mag and triple check clear before disassembling. All hail the god of fallible, man-made parts!
That 65% claim by Glock is no longer valid. Some industry folks who track that kind of thing told me at SHOT that Glock has dropped to about 40%. Big wins for SIG and Winchester and the filing by Glock is pretty much standard fare. If Glock had won, S&W or SIG would have done the same thing.
bobbyfairbanks
03-02-2017, 08:05
M9 are crap guns. Weigh to much and shitty triggers. Glocks work all the time. Fire the officers that are running this put SOF NCO's in charge and you'll get a handgun that always works and magazines that don't wear out. Oh not to mention cheap.
I have an M9A3 and smaller sized hands and the pistol works great for me. Since it uses the vertec grip it is smaller than the M9 or M9A1.
.455_Hunter
03-02-2017, 08:57
I have an M9A3 and smaller sized hands and the pistol works great for me. Since it uses the vertec grip it is smaller than the M9 or M9A1.
+1000. The original M9/92 grip is definitely kind of a cow, but the Vertec corrects this deficiency.
mtnrider
03-02-2017, 09:15
... the filing by Glock is pretty much standard fare. If Glock had won, S&W or SIG would have done the same thing.
^Bingo. Pretty much standard in government contract bidding, I see it all the time. 99.9999% chance nothing will come out of it.
.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170302/321ef569f1e2ab8009c28c51aca5b503.jpg
KevDen2005
03-02-2017, 09:51
It's all about SAFETY Boys...[facepalm]
"The P320 maximizes peace of mind with a robust safety system. Never again will you need to pull the trigger to disassemble your pistol."
I would bet this has to be at the top of the list. The army/military, hates weapons without safety systems. The trigger is obviously a no go. And playing devils advocate I can think of three people right now in my platoon that would have shot a round while cleaning their firearms. However, everyone knows not everyone gets a pistol, and that on the topic of safety systems I can recall never seeing any ammo when our weapons were cleaned during my 7 years. I think it's still punishable by death if you bring ammo off the range, right?
KevDen2005
03-02-2017, 09:52
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170302/321ef569f1e2ab8009c28c51aca5b503.jpg
Nice. Personally I love Glock and wished that was the army's choice.
OneGuy67
03-02-2017, 10:38
All MP's are issued M9's as their primary weapon. On deployments, they had both and during state activations, they always carried their M9. That being said, its a piece of crap. The roll out of an attachable lower rail system for a light mount/laser was an extra expense contract for someone that was really unnecessary. Wasted money.
Happy for Sig. Prefer them over the Glock any day.
I would bet this has to be at the top of the list. The army/military, hates weapons without safety systems. The trigger is obviously a no go. And playing devils advocate I can think of three people right now in my platoon that would have shot a round while cleaning their firearms. However, everyone knows not everyone gets a pistol, and that on the topic of safety systems I can recall never seeing any ammo when our weapons were cleaned during my 7 years. I think it's still punishable by death if you bring ammo off the range, right?
They don't punish anyone with death anymore for anything it would seem.
Sig actually read the solicitation and submitted a system that met requirements. They also got the price per unit down to beat everyone else having learned from losing the M9 contract on price.
Glock submitted their same old 30 year old design and ignored the specs. Because Glock is perfection so why would they change?
Oh well.
The P320 is a great design (frames, mags, slides all adaptable around a FCU) taking the best of the P250 and ditching the horrible trigger for a decent striker. When Sig puts out a X/M17 model (and they will) I might pick one up if it's reasonable.
hurley842002
03-02-2017, 11:46
Glock submitted their same old 30 year old design and ignored the specs. Because Glock is perfection so why would they change?
I'm a Glock guy through and through, I just shoot them well, but this is pretty much the tale of the tape. If you refuse to be innovative, eventually you start losing out on big contracts.
Sig actually read the solicitation and submitted a system that met requirements.
If you want something specific, you write the solicitation so that only your vendor of choice can meet those requirements. [Coffee]
Scanker19
03-02-2017, 12:08
I loved the M9. It always worked for me. The magazines were the worst part and the cause of most of the failures I saw.
Sure the grip is a bit big, but how long will it take joe to lose the back straps? Or before the unit tosses them? So we can make them CoE then it's one more thing for joe to lose then pay for. Sweet. Just what soldiers need.
I don't really care what the military issues for a handgun. I mean I bet 99% or more of people who are or were in the military have never fired a shot from their handgun in a combat situation.
I vote they use hi-points. It will be like WW2. A gun to get a gun. It will increase everyones motivation to kill the enemy just so they can have a different gun.
But our enemy is using things like makarovs and Iraqi knockoffs. It's not exactly the same motivation as a Luger.
This a normal thing in govt contracting. It was expected. *yawn*
http://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Carry-Gun-On-Bathroom-Floor.jpg
If you want something specific, you write the solicitation so that only your vendor of choice can meet those requirements. [Coffee]
Beretta tried too...
http://www.berettadefensetechnologies.com/pistols/apx-pistol
... and actually made it to the top three. This was even after the M9A3. So kudos to them for actually reading the solicitation and tooling up a new platform after having the M9A3 rejected.
Glock has no legitimate beef.
Aloha_Shooter
03-02-2017, 20:58
I vote they use hi-points. It will be like WW2. A gun to get a gun. It will increase everyones motivation to kill the enemy just so they can have a different gun.
??? Anyone that would rather shoot a Luger than a 1911A1 or a Mauser instead of a Garand was drinking rotgut ...
Honey Badger282.8
03-02-2017, 21:02
I liked the M9 better than the Sig M11 I carried while flying, that stupid decocker always required me to change my grip to actuate. My experience with the M11, and the price of Sigs will keep me away from them. I always thought the MHS program was dumb, the Army should have just followed SOCOMs lead and adopted the G19.
hollohas
03-02-2017, 21:43
Sig actually read the solicitation and submitted a system that met requirements. They also got the price per unit down to beat everyone else having learned from losing the M9 contract on price.
Glock submitted their same old 30 year old design and ignored the specs. Because Glock is perfection so why would they change?
This, exactly. SIG and Beretta made changes to meet the specs. Glock just grabbed one off the shelf and sent it in. This new handgun solicitation has been around for years. SIG basically design the P320 to match the requirements.
If you want something specific, you write the solicitation so that only your vendor of choice can meet those requirements. [Coffee]
Maybe. But SIG did modify the P320 for the solicitation. Most notably, they added a manual safety.
hollohas
03-02-2017, 21:46
My experience with the M11, and the price of Sigs will keep me away from them.
Neither one of these reasons applies to the P320. It's cheep and doesn't have a decocker. Just saying ;)
Honey Badger282.8
03-02-2017, 23:04
Neither one of these reasons applies to the P320. It's cheep and doesn't have a decocker. Just saying ;)
True, but it still says Sig on it lol. I was looking into a P320 when it came out but I realized I could damn near buy a second gun for the cost of the conversion kit. For a caliber change, in the case of .40 Glocks I'd just need a $100 conversion barrel and applicable mag.
this is what I always thought was funny. Why do I care if it can change calibers UNLESS it can do it very cheap. Otherwise I would just buy an additional gun. The only way this would be a selling point to me is if somehow, somewhere you were restricted and could only own a certain number of handguns. Since I can own as many as I want, I wouldnt have any interest in a caliber change that wasnt dirt cheap.
Makes sense to me. What I heard was buy more guns.[emoji6]
hollohas
03-03-2017, 08:56
this is what I always thought was funny. Why do I care if it can change calibers UNLESS it can do it very cheap. Otherwise I would just buy an additional gun. The only way this would be a selling point to me is if somehow, somewhere you were restricted and could only own a certain number of handguns. Since I can own as many as I want, I wouldnt have any interest in a caliber change that wasnt dirt cheap.
I agree completely. I've never had the interest to change calibers in a pistol. Especially when it involves changing the entire slide.
What I do like is the $35 grip modules for the P320. Different colors, different sizes. That's kinda cool.
For example, the P320 full size either has 17rnd mags or 10rnd in 9mm. That sucks for CO.
But, if you drop your trigger group and slide into a $35 P320 Compact frame, now you have the option to use the 15rnd mags.
??? Anyone that would rather shoot a Luger than a 1911A1 or a Mauser instead of a Garand was drinking rotgut ...
I think he was referring to the liberator pistol. At least that was the first thing that came to mind....
Aloha_Shooter
03-03-2017, 10:29
I think he was referring to the liberator pistol. At least that was the first thing that came to mind....
Ah, the Liberator pistol was for resistance forces. We were talking about mainstream issue weapons so I was focused on what we're providing to GIs and why.
As far as caliber conversion, it doesn't make a lot of sense for us civilians but in the context of government acquisition where funds to buy are separated from funds to sustain and the fact the Army already has a large stockpile of 9 mm ball ammunition (and ongoing contracts to supply same) but knows it may want to shift to a more combat effective round after the last decade's experience, there are very good reasons to buy a pistol that they can slowly convert to the new round (whatever it may be) as stockpiles are depleted.
Color of money is as important as amount of money when you're dealing with government procurement or sustainment.
SuperiorDG
11-29-2017, 15:53
Looks like they just got the first ones.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sc-pQH9GSxA&feature=youtu.be
Rucker61
11-29-2017, 17:26
Looks like they just got the first ones.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sc-pQH9GSxA&feature=youtu.be
Is that the method of gripping the pistol the military is taught now?
SuperiorDG
11-29-2017, 17:51
Is that the method of gripping the pistol the military is taught now?
I don't know but one guy is doing the total teacup thing.
I don't know but one guy is doing the total teacup thing.
Yea, cringeworthy. Looked like an O.
Yeah, I'm not hitting anything so let me widen my stance and bear down on this pistola that I'm afraid of.
Aloha_Shooter
11-29-2017, 22:14
I don't know but one guy is doing the total teacup thing.
Yea, cringeworthy. Looked like an O.
I really don't care as long as he hits what he's aiming at and isn't hitting anything he's NOT aiming at.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171130/837a2ec773784fc2d3c5e52f5d7a1119.jpg
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Grant H.
11-30-2017, 08:50
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171130/837a2ec773784fc2d3c5e52f5d7a1119.jpg
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Please tell me that's not how the military is taught to shoot a pistol...
I understand the isosceles triangle with armor, but the rest of him is a train wreck. Leaned back, barely supporting the gun, huge gap between the web of his thumb and forefinger and the beaver tail.
Yuck.
Please tell me that's not how the military is taught to shoot a pistol...
I understand the isosceles triangle with armor, but the rest of him is a train wreck. Leaned back, barely supporting the gun, huge gap between the web of his thumb and forefinger and the beaver tail.
Yuck.
Did you watch the video? There’s a lot more that are pretty bad haha
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But look how stiff and purdy his no-starch uniform meant to imitate dirty-ass nature is. Bet his OER is stellar.
You guys are funny :) What is OER?
Do you think the 'crats in the unit got to shoot the guns first?
You guys are funny :) What is OER?
Do you think the 'crats in the unit got to shoot the guns first?
Officer Evaluation Report. NCO's receive an NCOER. It's basically just a way to say "you did these things well. improve on these other things." Or, to utterly tank someone's career if they didn't do something well.
kidicarus13
11-30-2017, 13:48
"The specific performance improvements from [the M17 and M18] over the M9 include better accuracy, tighter dispersion, and better ergonomics, which combined result in a far more lethal pistol." says Lt Col. Steven Power.
Far more lethal?! I guess.
Zundfolge
11-30-2017, 13:52
"The specific performance improvements from [the M17 and M18] over the M9 include better accuracy, tighter dispersion, and better ergonomics, which combined result in a far more lethal pistol." says Lt Col. Steven Power.
Far more lethal?! I guess.
Truth is, the adoption of JHPs to go with the pistol will actually make it more lethal.
The Hague agreement is just silly.
Officer Evaluation Report. NCO's receive an NCOER. It's basically just a way to say "you did these things well. improve on these other things." Or, to utterly tank someone's career if they didn't do something well.
Thank you.
You guys are funny :) What is OER?
Do you think the 'crats in the unit got to shoot the guns first?
We used to think of them as "Where do I fit on the curve of mediocrity?" Everyone knew that if you didn't slide to the high side, your career was sliding to the civilian side.
Does everyone still follow the Army Times (service papers) to see the cut off scores for your MOS? I would hope there was a website or something more modern than picking up the Times just to check the cut-offs to see if you should change your MOS or give up on the idea of being promoted while you still had teeth.
BushMasterBoy
11-30-2017, 17:06
SIG=Self Inflicted Gunshot
Truth is, the adoption of JHPs to go with the pistol will actually make it more lethal.
The Hague agreement is just silly.
ISIS never signed the convention, and the US never ratified it either, so we don't need to eliminate rational options. I don't think USSOC has been holding back on the use of JHPs.
An article from 2015:
U.S. Army Considers More-Lethal Hollow Point Bullets for New Sidearm
(https://www.thetrace.org/2015/07/hollow-point-ammunition-us-army/)
Looks like the gun is made from Play-Dough
hollohas
11-30-2017, 20:34
"The specific performance improvements from [the M17 and M18] over the M9 include better accuracy, tighter dispersion, and better ergonomics, which combined result in a far more lethal pistol." says Lt Col. Steven Power.
Far more lethal?! I guess.If any of those things translate to more hits on target in what I assume are rare instances that they are used, I suppose that could = more lethal.
Am I the only one that finds the term "tighter dispersion" odd? So....when the shots are spread out, they're not spread out as far apart as they could be?
Martinjmpr
12-01-2017, 10:36
We used to think of them as "Where do I fit on the curve of mediocrity?" Everyone knew that if you didn't slide to the high side, your career was sliding to the civilian side.
Does everyone still follow the Army Times (service papers) to see the cut off scores for your MOS? I would hope there was a website or something more modern than picking up the Times just to check the cut-offs to see if you should change your MOS or give up on the idea of being promoted while you still had teeth.
I'm pretty sure cutoff scores are the only thing that keeps Army Times in business. That's why they wrap it in plastic at the checkout counter because if they didn't, soldiers would just flip through to find their cutoff scores and then put it back.
I know what it's like to check the cutoff scores obsessively. My MOS was at 798 for cutoff scores for a couple of years in the early 90's. Took me 5 1/2 years go to from E-5 to E-6.
SIG=Self Inflicted Gunshot
I've never had an issue with any of my 4 SIGs... I still would have rather the Army adopt the 226. But I see their reason for going with a striker fire pistol over hammer/decocker SA/DA.
And reading through all the trashing of the M9... I agree and disagree. I have a Wilson Combat 92G that is fantastic! It's one of the best pistols I've ever owned. That being said it is taking all of the good Beretta had and throwing out the bad with their improvements (decocker, no external safety, improved trigger/sights/ejector).
I'm pretty sure cutoff scores are the only thing that keeps Army Times in business. That's why they wrap it in plastic at the checkout counter because if they didn't, soldiers would just flip through to find their cutoff scores and then put it back.
I know what it's like to check the cutoff scores obsessively. My MOS was at 798 for cutoff scores for a couple of years in the early 90's. Took me 5 1/2 years go to from E-5 to E-6.
That is funny, "wrapped in plastic." I think there was always a copy in the barber shop so I never bought a copy. I thought they were free for the longest time.
Yes, I used the post barber because they specialized in cheap, frequent, awful haircuts. I spent most nights in a hangar or on a helicopter so having a nice haircut was a needless extravagance. Oh those young, carefree, drunken, hazy days of youth.
I'm pretty sure cutoff scores are the only thing that keeps Army Times in business. That's why they wrap it in plastic at the checkout counter because if they didn't, soldiers would just flip through to find their cutoff scores and then put it back.
I know what it's like to check the cutoff scores obsessively. My MOS was at 798 for cutoff scores for a couple of years in the early 90's. Took me 5 1/2 years go to from E-5 to E-6.
This is why I was so happy to be in during the internet age- we just look up the cutoff scores on the Department of The Army website... [Coffee]
I'm pretty sure cutoff scores are the only thing that keeps Army Times in business. That's why they wrap it in plastic at the checkout counter because if they didn't, soldiers would just flip through to find their cutoff scores and then put it back.
I know what it's like to check the cutoff scores obsessively. My MOS was at 798 for cutoff scores for a couple of years in the early 90's. Took me 5 1/2 years go to from E-5 to E-6.
Props for toughing it out. I was on the E6 promo list for 3.5 years and bailed out. Cutoff was pretty consistently at max every month. Old E6/E7 farts wouldn't leave.
Didn't really want to change MOS, and got shut down right off for WO candidate - not enough TIS according to the interviewer. I guess they allowed the interview to proceed anyway as they sometimes make exception for exceptional candidates, of which I was not... I think had I completed my BS instead of the AS I had at the timed, I might have had a shot.
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