View Full Version : Caliber debate is finally over...
I've been on this theory for a while. About 5 years ago I streamlined my handguns to 9mm and all my rifles to 5.56mm (special credit to forum member TW4 for convincing me this was the way to go).
So, seeing this survey turn out the way it did was no real surprise to me. I'm sure a ton of the old dogs in here will need their heart meds while reading this.
.45 vs 9mm
Larry Vickers: The debate is over - 9mm won
Recently Bill Wilson of Wilson Combat fame sent around a survey to many notable people in the firearms industry - many M4C members will recognize instantly several on the survey such as myself, Hackathorn and Rob Leatham. The question was simple; if you had to choose one pistol caliber for self defense and range use what would it be. The results spoke volumes-9mm Para won in a landslide. Almost unanimously.
Survey Says
Assuming you had to buy your own pistol and ammunition (type of your choice) for combined self-defense and self-defense range training use, which caliber would you choose, 9x19mm Parabellum, .357 Sig, .38 super, .40 S&W, 10mm or .45 ACP ?
I surveyed the following and their answer:
BJ Norris 9mm
Bill Rogers 9mm
Bill Wilson 9mm
David Bahde 9mm
Ernest Langdon 9mm
Frank Proctor 9mm
Ken Hackathorn 9mm
Larry Vickers 9mm
Mike Seeklander 9mm
Paul Markel 9mm
Paul Howe 9mm
Paul Buffoni 9mm
Rob Haught .45
Rob Leatham .40
Super Dave Harrington 9mm
Benefits of 9mm
It was no surprise to me; I've been preaching the benefits of 9mm for quite awhile now and I'm not alone. 9mm pistols hold a lot of bullets and are easy to shoot. There are many good models to choose from. Practice Ammo is easy to get and fairly cheap. And most importantly some of the self defense loads on the market are very effective. I can't say I was surprised by this development at all.
Experience
In fact, I saw it coming years ago. One thing I had been doing for years is asking LE officers who carry 9mm what specific load they use and what performance has it provided on the job. Without exception anytime officers were carrying the Winchester Ranger 127 grain +P+ or the Speer Gold Dot they had nothing but good things to say. In fact one officer told me they had yet to have a bad guy survive who they had shot with the Ranger 127 gr +P+. To me when the FBI announced a switch back to 9mm that simply confirmed what I already knew. We live in a 9mm world and that's not changing anytime soon.
The Way I See It
An exception to that in my opinion would be if you are stuck for whatever reason to carrying ball Ammo only. At that point all the calibers are just gonna poke a hole in the bad guy and a bigger hole is better than a smaller one so .45 ACP rules. That leaves .40 S&W out in the cold in my opinion and that trend is seen everywhere now as the .40 has quickly become the black sheep of the whole Ammo debate. The guns are harder to shoot, hold less bullets and are no more effective on the street than 9mm. In fact some have proven to be problematic for many years (Glock 22) when there 9mm counterparts are gold standards for dependability and reliability (Glock 17).
So that's the way I see it; 9mm is in, .40 is out, and .45 if needed. Be safe, keep shooting, LAV out.
Larry Vickers
Master Sergeant ( Retired )
US Army SOF Combat Veteran
http://vickerstactical.com
http://m.youtube.com/user/VickersTacticalInc
http://us1.campaign-archive2.com/?u=...1&e=ac79a07645 (http://us1.campaign-archive2.com/?u=7b1a9382c490b04b227c7c2b9&id=44b9b11231&e=ac79a07645)
Great-Kazoo
03-29-2017, 21:58
One who practices with a 22
Is superior to one that doesn't with a 45.
It's not the tool, as much as the person wielding it.
It's a good thing I don't have to choose just one. I have options, especially in .45 ACP.
...and it's never "over".
One who practices with a 22
Is superior to one that doesn't with a 45.
It's not the tool, as much as the person wielding it.
Well...we can't all be Jerry Miculek.
Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!
Great-Kazoo
03-29-2017, 22:36
Well...we can't all be Jerry Miculek.
https://scontent.fapa1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/17553872_1947832178769734_3290413480274712897_n.jp g?oh=cf57b5e611e681350bdb63158bf3e30d&oe=59517882
I wasn't gonna go there...but you had to make me do it.
http://i1094.photobucket.com/albums/i445/TangoDownPro/1911%20Funny_zpskgb9bs7z.jpg (http://s1094.photobucket.com/user/TangoDownPro/media/1911%20Funny_zpskgb9bs7z.jpg.html)
I love 9mm, probably the caliber I've shot the most. But it's not my favorite. That said, I've never understood people that standardize to just a couple calibers. In the military or a business standardized is great. I like a bunch of choices. I'd bet most of the folks on this forum have 5 plus calibers just in their pistols. Every time a new caliber comes out I get excited. Then I figure out it usually was solving a problem that didn't exist. Buy what makes you want to shoot.
thvigil11
03-29-2017, 22:49
Well, you know if you hit someone center mass with a 9, they'll just keep coming. Hit them in the hand with a 45 and it'll take their whole arms off. [Coffee]
Great-Kazoo
03-29-2017, 22:51
I wasn't gonna go there...but you had to make me do it.
http://i1094.photobucket.com/albums/i445/TangoDownPro/1911%20Funny_zpskgb9bs7z.jpg (http://s1094.photobucket.com/user/TangoDownPro/media/1911%20Funny_zpskgb9bs7z.jpg.html)
I did, I did ;)
https://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.s-uxRl2xX950XIzJn8efSAEsDh&pid=15.1&P=0&w=225&h=170
thvigil11
03-29-2017, 22:55
I love 9mm, probably the caliber I've shot the most. But it's not my favorite. That said, I've never understood people that standardize to just a couple calibers. In the military or a business standardized is great. I like a bunch of choices. I'd bet most of the folks on this forum have 5 plus calibers just in their pistols. Every time a new caliber comes out I get excited. Then I figure out it usually was solving a problem that didn't exist. Buy what makes you want to shoot.
I agree, variety is the spice of life. If you only own guns for defense, then maybe these things would concern you. But if you own guns for the fun, history, science and all those other reasons, then it is a simple joy to own a caliber called 5.5mm velo-dog.
Well, you know if you hit someone center mass with a 9, they'll just keep coming. Hit them in the hand with a 45 and it'll take their whole arms off. [Coffee]
I've heard my neighbor tell me this in person.
thvigil11
03-29-2017, 23:00
I've heard my neighbor tell me this in person.
Probably said a 12 gauge will send a guy flying through the air too.[facepalm]
Probably said a 12 gauge will send a guy flying through the air too.[facepalm]
Funny...a cop told me essentially that the other night. I didn't bother to respond.
Well, you know if you hit someone center mass with a 9, they'll just keep coming. Hit them in the hand with a 45 and it'll take their whole arms off. [Coffee]
You only have to come close with a 50BMG to take their whole torso off.
If God wanted me to carry somethin' a bigger than 9mm he woulda made a 10mm!
Velocitas, Opprimere,
Violentia Operandi
Bailey Guns
03-30-2017, 06:22
I got news for you. Some of us "old dogs" came to this conclusion a long time ago. Not that any one of the "normal" defensive-use calibers was better than the other, but that they were all as adequate as practically possible. In the early to mid 90s when this discussion would come up (and the 9mm wasn't nearly in as high favor as it is now) people would say it was inadequate. My response was the 9mm had been killing people pretty effectively since the turn of the century. I came to the conclusion that most people, if getting shot, pretty much won't care what caliber they're getting shot with...they just want to stop getting shot. In a gunfight I doubt many people will really give a shit about a survey by a bunch of experts.
Then again, I've been using an AR-15 for home defense for about 30 years, too. There are very few things a shotgun can do in a defensive situation that a nice carbine-style rifle can't. Providing the shooter with an excessive amount of recoil is about the only thing I can think of.
When I took my first class from Clint Smith a long, long time ago he laid it all out for me (and everyone else, of course) with one word...LOGIC. Apply a little logic and some simple observational skills and the question really isn't that tough.
Some times I think the "experts" who talk the loudest and have the most fan-boys are the people I care to listen to the least.
68Charger
03-30-2017, 06:36
The question was simple; if you had to choose one pistol caliber for self defense and range use what would it be. The results spoke volumes-9mm Para won in a landslide. Almost unanimously.
1) Why do we have to choose 1 caliber? This is 'murica
2) self defense against what? I think they're assuming 2-legged threats (since T-Rex/velociraptors are extinct).... who wants to volunteer to use 9mm on a Grizzly bear?
3) range use (duh, it's cheap compared to other calibers)
I have guns in 9mm... I just don't want to be limited to them
but I probably should get more 9mm guns if it's going to be more common....
but then again, doesn't this mean in the next panic, there will be no 9mm to be found on ammo shelves? guess I better stockpile some.
ETA: They're also ignoring any capacity restraints...
9mm pistols hold a lot of bullets and are easy to shoot.
If you're limited to 15 rounds (or worse in other states) by some idiots in the capitol building, might as well make them more powerful... even if it's just to piss on those that told you that you can't have more rounds in your pistol.
I used to have rifles and pistols in a bunch of different calibers and buying ammunition was always really expensive and a chore. Every time I wanted to shoot something I have to buy at least a box worth of ammunition and it was just a huge pain in the ass. Now I have 5.56mm, 9mm and a single .45 and my shooting life is way easier.
Guess I'm ahead of the curve. I've used the 9mm almost exclusively for just about everything since about 1991.
Martinjmpr
03-30-2017, 08:17
I used to have rifles and pistols in a bunch of different calibers and buying ammunition was always really expensive and a chore. Every time I wanted to shoot something I have to buy at least a box worth of ammunition and it was just a huge pain in the ass. Now I have 5.56mm, 9mm and a single .45 and my shooting life is way easier.
Yup, this right here. Back in the 80's when I first started buying guns I'd buy anything that caught my fancy. .30 Carbine? Sure! .45 Long Colt? Why not! 9mm Bergman-Bayard? OK (alright that last one wasn't true.) :D I even had a Vietnam "bring back" SKS in the mid 80's which was before the Chinese started exporting bulk 7.62 x 39 - the only ammo available in that caliber was Norma which sold at the then-exorbitant price of $1/round (keep in mind that this was when .30-30, .308 and .30-06 were going for $7.00 for a box of 20.)
I called the phenomenon "Caliber creep." And by the mid 1990's I realized that I had guns that I just wouldn't shoot because ammo was too expensive or difficult to find. So I adopted a new philosophy - I would "allow" myself to own as many guns as I could afford, but I'd try to limit the calibers. By doing this, I figure there's more $$ for guns and less $$ for ammo.
I have since rid myself of .30-30, .30 Carbine, .40 S&W, .45ACP and .308. If I could bring myself to do it, I'd be tempted to rid myself of .38/.357 too, since it's so much easier to find 9mm but for some weird emotional reason I just can't get rid of my revolvers (I've always thought "an automatic pistol is a machine, but a fine revolver is a work of art")
Last year I acquired a Mag-Na-Ported .44 Mag Ruger Blackhawk. That one will probably go up for sale soon. I'm not planning on any trips to Alaska and I can't think of any other reason I'd want or need a .44 Mag.
Zundfolge
03-30-2017, 08:32
Back in the early aughts I got caught up in the .40 hype, so I have plenty of .40 stockpiled and most of my autoloaders are .40 (as are all the autos I CCW, although occasionally I carry a .357mag).
If I had it all to do over again I'd go 9x19.
The results don't surprise me. I loved 45acp when I was loading it for $3.50 per 50, and going through 500 rounds a month with my Colt 1911s that I got for under $500. Given the current high cost of practice with 45, the high cost of replacing my worn out Colt 1911s, and the weight savings, I switched to 9mm striker fire hand guns about 10 years ago even though I don't like them as well as my old 1911s. I switched because it was affordable, and I can practice more with them. I have a lot of different calibers that I enjoy shooting, and I load for them. However, I only keep 9mm, 223, 300blk, and 308 in bulk, and most of my range time is with these four; I sort of consolidated on these for my primary use firearms. However, I doubt I could eliminate the others though, I still like my magnum revolvers, belted magnum rifles, 3006, 6.5 Creedmoor, 4570, among others.
.455_Hunter
03-30-2017, 13:46
The correct answer is .38 special.
Aloha_Shooter
03-30-2017, 14:08
That's all very nice for Mr. Vickers and company but
1) the best (tightest groups) shooters I have are 2 1911A1s and my snub-nose .357 S&W. I have fun with the 9s and they're certainly cheaper to practice with but as good as they are, they just don't work as well for me as the .45s. My M&P 9 Shield is the most convenient for CCW and fires well enough but nothing like my 1911s.
2) how would their opinions change if their magazine sizes were limited by idiot legislators and a governor like we have up in Denver? If I only get 7 or 8 shots in my magazine, I want those 7 or 8 shots to be as effective as possible. Shooting 2 or 3 times to do the same job just doesn't work for me.
IMO, do what works for you. If it's 9x19mm as it was for 13 of the 15 guys polled, great. If it's .45 ACP or .40 S&W, great. Hell, I'm fine if it's a .25 ACP or .500 as long as you hit what you're aiming for and only what you're aiming for and it stops the bad guy(s).
68Charger
03-30-2017, 14:25
you all are deluded.. "the science is settled" [gohome]
People who shoot to become better at shooting have different requirements from ammo than most everyone else. I get the impression that the survey taker is alluding to the idea that being able to put rounds where they are needed, in a hurry, outweighs pretty much every other measurable parameter; and that's why he throws self defense into the mix as well.
funkymonkey1111
03-30-2017, 15:25
what about those that want Major power factor? or, do we just mod our guns to run 9mm major?
68Charger
03-30-2017, 16:03
People who shoot to become better at shooting have different requirements from ammo than most everyone else. I get the impression that the survey taker is alluding to the idea that being able to put rounds where they are needed, in a hurry, outweighs pretty much every other measurable parameter; and that's why he throws self defense into the mix as well.
well said... this pretty much sums up response to the OP... /close thread
[pick-me] What about a 9mm 1911?
[gohome]
glenncal1
03-30-2017, 16:45
Does this mean I cant carry my .32-20, .32 H&R, .380, 10mm etc. bummer :(
Zundfolge
03-30-2017, 16:52
Does this mean I cant carry my .32-20
Why would you want to carry that? It'll cut your baby half in two!
I've never understood people that standardize to just a couple calibers.
Money, and time. I don't have an excess of either.
When you can't find ammo in the 1 caliber you have...
Options are good.
When you can't find ammo in the 1 caliber you have...
Options are good.
During the last great ammo shortage I noticed that the only pistol caliber that always seemed to be in stock was 40S&W.
I was tempted to diversify and have things chambered in lots of different calibers so ammunition wouldn't be an issue during future shortages. But then I realized that the ammunition shortage only affected people who didn't have the foresight to keep plenty on hand at all times so I decided not to invest in multiple calibers.
During the last great ammo shortage I noticed that the only pistol caliber that always seemed to be in stock was 40S&W.
I kept running across 10mm, and I don't own anything in 10mm...yet.
I was thinking the other day that if I ever built a pistol caliber carbine that it would be in 10mm. I have no idea if mags, barrels, etc are available though.
That stuff is out there, Stu. At least I'm pretty sure. Maybe look at Circle 10.
My dream "pistol caliber carbine" would be some sort of lever action rifle chambered in 500 S&W.
funkymonkey1111
03-30-2017, 20:26
Why would you want to carry that? It'll cut your baby half in two!
niiiice!
"She got a .38 special but I believe it's most too light..."
That stuff is out there, Stu. At least I'm pretty sure. Maybe look at Circle 10.
My dream "pistol caliber carbine" would be some sort of lever action rifle chambered in 500 S&W.
http://www.bighornarmory.com/catalog/1/big-horn-armory-products/
Sorry, ray...now you gotta buy one and sell it to me when the honeymoon phase wears off lol
http://www.bighornarmory.com/catalog/1/big-horn-armory-products/
Sorry, ray...now you gotta buy one and sell it to me when the honeymoon phase wears off lol
I guess I should have specified that someone on a beer budget should be able to afford it.
I got news for you. Some of us "old dogs" came to this conclusion a long time ago. Not that any one of the "normal" defensive-use calibers was better than the other, but that they were all as adequate as practically possible. In the early to mid 90s when this discussion would come up (and the 9mm wasn't nearly in as high favor as it is now) people would say it was inadequate. My response was the 9mm had been killing people pretty effectively since the turn of the century. I came to the conclusion that most people, if getting shot, pretty much won't care what caliber they're getting shot with...they just want to stop getting shot. In a gunfight I doubt many people will really give a shit about a survey by a bunch of experts.
Then again, I've been using an AR-15 for home defense for about 30 years, too. There are very few things a shotgun can do in a defensive situation that a nice carbine-style rifle can't. Providing the shooter with an excessive amount of recoil is about the only thing I can think of.
When I took my first class from Clint Smith a long, long time ago he laid it all out for me (and everyone else, of course) with one word...LOGIC. Apply a little logic and some simple observational skills and the question really isn't that tough.
Some times I think the "experts" who talk the loudest and have the most fan-boys are the people I care to listen to the least.
I agree with this 100%.
For people who can't understand why there are guys like me who standardize to a couple of calibers, its really simple.
1. It guarantees quality range time - for me. What you consider quality range time may be different for you.
2. When I want to go to the range, I only have to grab 2 calibers of ammo (9mm & 5.56).
3. It makes it easy to reload for.
4. Cost effective.
5. That ammo feeds everything I own.
6. For me, in a SHTF situation, getting out of this city is priority. Makes it easy to only grab to batches of ammo and away I go (also refer to #5).
Yes, this is America and if you choose to have 500 guns in all different calibers, then rock on. It just doesn't work for me. I found this article interesting and not surprising at all.
[Awesom]
Bailey Guns
03-31-2017, 07:06
I can't say that I've standardized anything. But if I was forced to grab one handgun and some ammo it would be 9mm...Gen 2 G19 or G17...because the finger grooves on a Glock grip are the work of Satan.
But, honestly, I'm an equal opportunity gun nut. I like them all. I'm not really a gun snob but I do like quality guns. Having said that, there is a place for the Hi Points and Cobras and the like because even people of very modest means should have access to something. There are people who have to scrape for months to put together $100 for something to protect themselves/family/home. And, honestly, the only gun I've ever fired in anger or in a defensive situation was a Taurus Judge .410 round...at a rattlesnake. And calling that a defensive shoot is a stretch since it was just sunning itself on the steps behind the house. That Judge is the gun of choice when I'm working or otherwise out and about on the property here. And when they were first introduced by Taurus I looked at them like a big joke...a huge handgun that fires a shotgun round that's barely adequate for squirrels. Nothing wrong with .45 Colt but why carry that gun when so many other good options are available? Needless to say, my opinion has changed about that gun. But it is dedicated to .410 only.
I also understand why some people choose a .22 over a "normal" caliber for defense. I don't see a problem if that's what a person is comfortable with and shoots well. It's not the optimal defensive caliber for me, but it might be for someone else for a variety of reasons. When someone would ask me about carrying a .22 my big thing was making sure they understood the limitations and potential problems with small calibers, especially rimfires.
Sounds like that snake was sunning right at you.
Bailey Guns
03-31-2017, 07:24
Well, I didn't like the look on his face.
Experience
One officer said they had yet to have one bad guy survive who was shot with Winchester ranger. LoL
How many you think his sample size was? Tomorrow when he's shooting people try a 40 and get back to us.
Inquiring minds want to know.
I thought that part was funny as well. Must have been an ISIS officer.
Great-Kazoo
03-31-2017, 08:49
During the last great ammo shortage I noticed that the only pistol caliber that always seemed to be in stock was 40S&W.
I was tempted to diversify and have things chambered in lots of different calibers so ammunition wouldn't be an issue during future shortages. But then I realized that the ammunition shortage only affected people who didn't have the foresight to RELOAD so I decided not to invest in multiple calibers.
FIFY
I was thinking the other day that if I ever built a pistol caliber carbine that it would be in 10mm. I have no idea if mags, barrels, etc are available though.
Macon Armory does a 45 DI and i believe he's working on a 10mm
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