View Full Version : What Kind of Accidental Discharge Was This?
ChadAmberg
10-04-2009, 14:17
LAKELAND, Fla. — A Tampa couple and an Irish tourist were shot at a Lakeland gun range after a handgun accidentally fired.
Polk County sheriff's deputies say it's not entirely clear how many times Michael and Sherri Thourot's 9mm accidentally went off Saturday, or what caused the handgun to fire. The pistol was a Jennings make.
The man in an adjacent stall, 29-year-old Gary Flynn, of Irelandhttp://images.intellitxt.com/ast/adTypes/2.gif (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,559904,00.html?test=latestnews#), was most seriously injured. He underwent surgery after being hit in the shoulder and throat, and was listed in stable condition.
Michael Thourot was shot in the left hand, and Sherri Thourot was hit in the left arm. Both were also listed in stable condition.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,559904,00.html?test=latestnews
I know that Jennings has a horrible reputation, but sounds like the thing kept firing full auto somehow. Crazy stuff...
wow! how is this possible?!
Bailey Guns
10-04-2009, 14:35
Wow...that sucks that so many people got hurt.
On the other hand, who knew a Jennings would fire that many rounds without a stoppage or breaking?
More than likely they were pointing it sideways while loading the mag into the gun, and hit the trigger at some point after releaseing the slide...1 shot...
GunTroll
10-04-2009, 17:43
I'm ashamed to admit it but I had a Jennings 9 once. Shot that thing so much the frame cracked high in the rear of the trigger guard. I saw the crack and just bent it in two. Lesson learned. Buy crap, buy twice.
SSChameleon
10-04-2009, 21:13
The only thing I can think of (other than catastrophic operator screw up) is a firing pin that was jammed forward. When the shooter racked the first round it went full auto, and as Bailey pointed out, did a very un-Jennings like thing and fed more than one round.
Circuits
10-04-2009, 21:42
Whether or not it was a true AD (mechanical failure) the only reason anyone got hurt was because it wasn't pointed in a safe direction. I once had one of my M16's malfunction an empty an entire 30 round mag when I chambered the first round. It was pointed downrange, so I just hung on, let it it run dry while pointed downrange and no one got hurt.
It was a blown primer cup lodged between the hammer and trigger that caused that malfunction btw.
It was a blown primer cup lodged between the hammer and trigger that caused that malfunction btw.
I bet you weren't nervous explaining that one at all huh?
Whether or not it was a true AD (mechanical failure) the only reason anyone got hurt was because it wasn't pointed in a safe direction. I once had one of my M16's malfunction an empty an entire 30 round mag when I chambered the first round. It was pointed downrange, so I just hung on, let it it run dry while pointed downrange and no one got hurt.
It was a blown primer cup lodged between the hammer and trigger that caused that malfunction btw.
how many miles did you have to run for that one?[Beer]
Brainchild69
10-05-2009, 07:55
Whether or not it was a true AD (mechanical failure) the only reason anyone got hurt was because it wasn't pointed in a safe direction... .
You are wrong. I know both of these people very well and I was told exactly what happened. The mag was loaded and inserted, the slide was released, when the pistol was placed one the table POINTED DOWNRANGE, without the trigger being touched it went off repeatedly spinning around firing one round after another. Do not assume that someone was a dumbass and wasn’t following proper safety procedures if you don’t know the whole story. Have you ever been hurt by anything? Would it be correct to assume that you got hurt because you probably were not doing what you were supposed to be doing? There are other reports of the Jennings nine having this type of malfunction.
http://www.firearmsid.com/Recalls/FA_Recalls%202.htm
I await your apologies.
ChadAmberg
10-05-2009, 08:39
You are wrong. I know both of these people very well and I was told exactly what happened. The mag was loaded and inserted, the slide was released, when the pistol was placed one the table POINTED DOWNRANGE, without the trigger being touched it went off repeatedly spinning around firing one round after another. Do not assume that someone was a dumbass and wasn’t following proper safety procedures if you don’t know the whole story. Have you ever been hurt by anything? Would it be correct to assume that you got hurt because you probably were not doing what you were supposed to be doing? There are other reports of the Jennings nine having this type of malfunction.
http://www.firearmsid.com/Recalls/FA_Recalls%202.htm
I await your apologies.
Here's more info on the only listed recall for the Jennings, it was on their .22lr, but shows that it's possible:
JENNINGS FIREARMS
MODEL J-22,
22 LONG RIFLE CALIBER SEMIAUTOMATIC PISTOL
WARNING: These pistols may create an EXTREMELY DANGEROUS CONDITION and a POTENTIAL FOR SERIOUS INJURY by firing when dropped.
This model pistol trigger/disconnector bar and sear level may have too small a gap between them such that a sharp movement of the slide rearward could cause the weapon to discharge without the trigger being pulled.
The discharge is created by the moving slide impacting the disconnector and driving the trigger bar/disconnector rearward into the cam lever before it can pivot downward and out of alignment.
Source:
AFTE Journal, Winter, 2001; Volume 33, Number 1:48-49 So what happened is probably one of those one in a million long shots that shows what could happen without a properly engineered firearm.
Although I'm not sure an apology is in order. First off the comment wasn't directed towards you, it was towards your friends, but you're acting pretty offended yourself for no particular reason. You should have came in and enlightened us in a positive tone and gave us all the interesting details.
Second, it's a pretty valid assumption. It's very highly unlikely that any firearm would ever "go off by itself" at all. Actual "accidental discharges" not "negligent discharges" happens just a few times a year for all the millions of firearms that are loaded at all. And I'm sure that every time that does legitimately happen where it wasn't negligent with a finger "accidentally" on the trigger, the pistol is being handled which was enough to allow the hammer to fall, thus the rule of always keep it pointed downrange. An event like this, where it's sat down on the table and then goes off has to be incredibly rare, but possible. Combine that with a gun that keeps firing, and this event is essentially such a rare occurrence as to never be considered by anyone with experience.
based on your link, it would seem handling one of those things is a dangerous proposition!
theGinsue
10-05-2009, 22:46
The whole accident could have been avoided had the gun not had an inserted magazine and chambered round while left uncontrolled on the table.
For safety sake, I make it policy to leave the chamber clear and the slide open when I have the gun sitting on the table if there is any ammo in the gun )and when there is no ammo in the gun if it's not in a case). I do have a round in the chamber, slide closed with the gun in a holster on my belt and, given the circumstances described here, this unusual AD could have happened had the gun been holstered too, but at least it wouldn't have been spinning around. Still could have had injuries to multiple people though.
Very unusual. I'm quite curious to hear what the cause of this AD was.
Soooo, he left a loaded Jennings unattended on the bench at a public firing range? Is this correct? Doesn't sound like a dumbass move to me at all.
Batteriesnare
10-06-2009, 10:06
Soooo, he left a loaded Jennings unattended on the bench at a public firing range? Is this correct? Doesn't sound like a dumbass move to me at all.
I agree, along with Ginsue's thoughts.
I don't think anyone on this forum needs to apologize for their comments, the guy is liable for his weapon, and I sense as with most AD/NDs they don't want to own up to what really happened. If the gun was on the table loaded and the hammer slipped and locked in a firing position. If the gun was in such disrepair that this was able to happen, that is the owners fault. If it was a fluke mechanical issue, have the gun examined and then sue (as is the American way), then he can pay of the civil lawsuits against him.
Circuits
10-06-2009, 10:14
I bet you weren't nervous explaining that one at all huh?
Nope - I own plenty of full autos, and shoot them all the time - so there was nothing to explain. The incident did add a colorful cautionary tale to my repertoire, though.
Batteriesnare
10-06-2009, 10:35
Nope - I own plenty of full autos, and shoot them all the time - so there was nothing to explain. The incident did add a colorful cautionary tale to my repertoire, though.
But you knew exactly how to handle a very potentially dangerous situation, +1 to you![Beer]
I think you guys are being dicks about this. I don't see what is wrong with setting a chambered gun down on the bench, facing down range. The malfunction is going to happen at the time of chambering the round, not later. I also don't like the comment about it being a public range. So what? It's not like they set the gun down and went to lunch. They were obviously standing right there in their booth, or else they wouldn't have been shot.
My guess is that they were chambering a round, didn't expect the gun to fire, and dropped the gun. There is still accountability for not holding onto the gun better, but no amount of preparation will be able to prevent you from being surprised.
Soooo, he left a loaded Jennings unattended on the bench at a public firing range? Is this correct? Doesn't sound like a dumbass move to me at all.
My SOP at the range is to leave the action open, and the ejection port up, if for some reason I have to set the pistol on the bench. Just somethin' that was drilled into me by various instructors over the years : Don't chamber a round until you are ready to shoot. [DrillS]
SA Friday
10-06-2009, 13:00
There is CLEARLY not enough info provided to determine what actually occured, much less if it was an ND or a gun malfunction.
One round could have done the damage to all three. Or it could have went full auto and dumped a full mag... The article doesn't say how many rounds were fired. It also doesn't say if the gun discharged while in the hands of the owner, another, or sitting on the bench. Even a gun as crappy as a Jennings, I would find it hard to believe it self-discharged just sitting there. It's possible, but the highly unlikely.
Only a full recreation based on the evidence and witness statements will determine what happened. I've done a few shooting recreations. They are way too much fun (seriously). I know it a bad situation, but doing the recreations are just a blast.
I've investigated a couple of shootings where the person claimed spontaneous firing from the gun. It was disproved every time. The first was an M-16. I did some seriously dangerous things to try to get the gun to fire without touching the trigger in a controlled setting. Nada. The next one was a Siaga AK-47 in an attempted homicide. I inspected the gun and then informed the forensic scientist on the case that there was not fricken way. It was new, clean and stock.
The only time I've ever seen a gun AD without a booger picker on the boom lever was a Winchester 70 rifle with a post 64 trigger that had some home gunsmith hack job done to it. With the saftey on, you could slam the butt stock on something and get the sear to slip. This was an accidental death case that seriously looked like a homicide. Those triggers were always iffy anyway. That's why they stopped using them. Well, they sucked too...
Anyway, I'm babbling now...
Circuits
10-06-2009, 15:08
I've investigated a couple of shootings where the person claimed spontaneous firing from the gun. It was disproved every time. The first was an M-16. I did some seriously dangerous things to try to get the gun to fire without touching the trigger in a controlled setting. Nada.
My case wasn't a malfunction, exactly - the selector was set to auto, and the lodged primer cup was causing the trigger to be depressed enough that it didn't catch the hammer. This apparently occurred sometime during the last burst from the preceding magazine, as the rifle had locked the bolt back on the empty mag.
When I seated a fresh magazine and pressed the bolt release, the weapon acted exactly as it was supposed to... just that since it was debris keeping the hammer from engaging the trigger, there was no way for me to "let off" the trigger, and my trigger finger was outside the trigger guard anyway (finger off the trigger until on-target and ready to fire!).
Had the rifle been on "semi", it would have fired a single round instead of the whole mag when I pressed the bolt release.
That explains why it wasn't uncomfortable for you to explain why your semi-auto just went full auto.
ColoEnthusiast
10-06-2009, 16:52
Sounds like it was set down in "battery" for the firing pin to operate. There doesn't appear to be a de-cocker on those fine pieces, so looks like full reliance was placed on the safety lever, if activated.
As far as I'm concerned, putting a weapon down that is cocked with round chambered is not a good idea, safety or not.
SA Friday
10-06-2009, 19:05
My case wasn't a malfunction, exactly - the selector was set to auto, and the lodged primer cup was causing the trigger to be depressed enough that it didn't catch the hammer. This apparently occurred sometime during the last burst from the preceding magazine, as the rifle had locked the bolt back on the empty mag.
When I seated a fresh magazine and pressed the bolt release, the weapon acted exactly as it was supposed to... just that since it was debris keeping the hammer from engaging the trigger, there was no way for me to "let off" the trigger, and my trigger finger was outside the trigger guard anyway (finger off the trigger until on-target and ready to fire!).
Had the rifle been on "semi", it would have fired a single round instead of the whole mag when I pressed the bolt release.
The one I investigated involved an Airman getting shot by the ND.
Primer in the trigger area was the first thing I looked for. The next was modifications or alterations of factory parts.
Asha'man
10-06-2009, 19:36
However it happened, that's one European who will likely not go away with an interest and like for firearms.
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