View Full Version : Fake Combat Application Tourniquets (CAT's)
cmailliard
05-03-2017, 16:06
I did a Casualty Care class on Saturday and one participant brought an IFAK her husband had put together. She pulled the CAT out and I immediately noticed something was off about it. The Windless Clip was thinner on one side and was smashed down to the point the Windless would not fit in it.
http://i397.photobucket.com/albums/pp51/cm2047/IMG_9283_zps4w06mful.jpg (http://s397.photobucket.com/user/cm2047/media/IMG_9283_zps4w06mful.jpg.html)
I took the CAT and gave her a new one. I looked for the obvious signs of a fake and didn't see any. This one fooled me pretty well. I had a difficult time at first glance that it was fake. I thought it may be a manufacture defect. I emailed a guy I know North American Rescue on Sunday and he said they have not had any quality control issues with CAT's (made by CAT Resources) and that it was most likely a fake. After comparing the fake and a real one I only found one obvious difference. I then checked my couple dozen other CAT's and it checked out.
http://i397.photobucket.com/albums/pp51/cm2047/IMG_8100_zpsn4eym6ep.jpg (http://s397.photobucket.com/user/cm2047/media/IMG_8100_zpsn4eym6ep.jpg.html)
Can you see any difference, look close before you read on.
Answer
Look at the Velcro on the Windless Clip. The CAT on the left is fake the one on the right is legit. The fake has Velcro that does not go to the edges, it has a sewing strip on the edge. That is about the only difference that I have found. The fabric feels slightly different, a little for wrinkled, not smooth if that makes sense. But no other obvious difference.
So, if you are spending less than $20 on a CAT I can almost guarantee it is a fake or there is something else going on. If you are spending less than $24 I would be highly suspicious of it. Here is a bunch of fake CAT's
https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Tactical-First-Aid-Kit-Combat-Application_60509039475.html?spm=a2700.7724838.0.0 .xhOivA&s=p
https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/One-handed-Application-Military-CAT-Combat_60653339218.html?spm=a2700.7724838.0.0.xhOi vA&s=p
https://www.amazon.com/Tourniquet-Application-Tourniquets-Compression-Registered/dp/B01DJJUTXG/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&qid=1493583032&sr=8-8&keywords=combat+application+tourniquet
https://www.amazon.com/Tourniquet-Military-Application-YIWEISI-Emergency/dp/B06Y377GFL/ref=sr_1_19?ie=UTF8&qid=1493583032&sr=8-19&keywords=combat+application+tourniquet
https://www.amazon.com/Tourniquet-Application-Lightweight-Hemorrhage-Registration/dp/B01MS9PDA3/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1493583032&sr=8-4&keywords=combat+application+tourniquet
https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/disposable-wholesale-emergency-medical-military-tactic_60439069180.html?spm=a2700.7724838.0.0.xhOi vA&s=p
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Dead-End-Best-Combat-Tourniquet-NEW-/162479888744?hash=item25d48e5968:g:eSYAAOSwuxFYxzR 1
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Tourniquet-Best-Combat-Military-Tourniquets-Rapid-One-Hand-Application-/192156061694?hash=item2cbd64cffe:g:5ZMAAOSw3utY7gs l
Only buy your Tourniquets from reliable sources
North American Rescue Products (https://www.narescue.com/combat-application-tourniquet-c-a-t)
Rescue Essentials (https://www.rescue-essentials.com/combat-application-tourniquet-c-a-t-tactical-black-gen-7/)
Me after a class
So check your CAT's if you concerned, shoot me a PM and I can help.
sellersm
05-03-2017, 16:52
Excellent information and great pictures! I need to go check all of mine, but I think I bought them from reliable sources.
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Could be the pic angle, but the width of the windless clips on the left appear narrower as well.
More intel: https://youtu.be/zHbRW42-PB0
The nylon strip running through the windless looks a bit thicker on the right.
I was going to say that I'm amazed that the fake has the exact same mold marks on the plastic part and the glue dots on the wide nylon portion, but I have a feeling that they just sourced the same parts from the manufacturer.
cmailliard
05-03-2017, 19:05
The nylon strip running through the windless looks a bit thicker on the right.
I was going to say that I'm amazed that the fake has the exact same mold marks on the plastic part and the glue dots on the wide nylon portion, but I have a feeling that they just sourced the same parts from the manufacturer.
Mold marks, heat welds and a few other things were the original giveaways on fakes. These new ones are nearly identical.
cmailliard
05-03-2017, 19:09
Could be the pic angle, but the width of the windless clips on the left appear narrower as well.
The width of the composite plastic is the same at 1". The width of the Velcro is smaller.
That sucks !
Thanks for the info. Gunna go check mine.
Hmm. Sometimes you just know when something isn't right. Nice catch.
I teach TCCC for my department, we've seen a lot of these fakes. I've gotten frustrated that people are trying to save a buck on something so important.
If you are LE/FD/EMS/MIL call North American Rescue Direct, they will sell you TQ's at a discount. Please don't cheap out on vital equipment!
We played around with one and broke it within seconds, not even close to the pressures of real use. The biggest things we've noticed are cheaper plastics, windless straps not actually running the entire length, velcro coming off, and generally shotty looking.
Well crap i'm only one for two.
One of my buddy's that is a former EMT doubled up his order from a company called Recon Medical and got me some stuff. The CAT he got for me is a fake.
Another good vid that North America Rescue made that shows some good side by side info..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aD-KI-4PqtQ&feature=youtu.be
clodhopper
05-04-2017, 13:22
Alrighty. Somebody needs to help eshplain it to me.
I get it that the supposed "fake" isn't the real deal, but it was less cost and appears to me to still be just as functional, minus the narrow windlass issue. All the minor differences touted as identifying the fake don't appear to affect function. What is the big deal here? If you were paying full price and getting a knockoff, I could understand that. The amazon one is about half the cost, which means I can have two for the same price, more likely to have one handy. Don't bother tossing in here the "what is your life worth" argument, we all make value judgements on everything in life.
How is the "fake" going to be less than serviceable?
hurley842002
05-04-2017, 13:26
Alrighty. Somebody needs to help eshplain it to me.
I get it that the supposed "fake" isn't the real deal, but it was less cost and appears to me to still be just as functional, minus the narrow windlass issue. All the minor differences touted as identifying the fake don't appear to affect function. What is the big deal here? If you were paying full price and getting a knockoff, I could understand that. The amazon one is about half the cost, which means I can have two for the same price, more likely to have one handy. Don't bother tossing in here the "what is your life worth" argument, we all make value judgements on everything in life.
How is the "fake" going to be less than serviceable?
I'm guessing you didn't see post number 10?
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DenverGP
05-04-2017, 13:40
I've got two of the recon medical ones, used one at cmailliard's training class, it was just as strong as the actual NAR ones. Applied it full force several times. I trust it enough that it's in one of my first aid kits.
Thanks for sharing cmailliard. I have not noticed those subtle differences until you pointed them out and have admittedly directed folks (like yesterday, which i suspect prompted this thread) to the knockoffs... for what it's worth, I have used one of the knockoffs for demonstration purposes and torqued it down as tightly as I could on a "fun noodle" (foam water toy)... as well as tightly enough to stop flow of blood in my arm... and the knockoff one worked just fine. I guess it could "pop" and fail at any minute, but I tend to think like clodhopper a little bit here and having multiples more readily available is not a bad thing.
I suspect like anything else, there are degrees of quality amongst the frauds as well...
Chris, or anyone else, have you tried this one yet?
http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab93/Markcolo/2017-05-04%2013.34.44_zpsi0z2lcq4.jpg (http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab93/Markcolo/2017-05-04%2013.34.44_zpsi0z2lcq4.jpg)
I played with a previous version of that. Lacked the large pull ring. Requires two functional hands, or teeth as pictured. Heavier and more expensive but it definitely works. It's actually more comfortable because of the width.
We didn't have any kids around but I suspect the minimum limb size is much larger than a child's arm.
I played with a previous version of that. Lacked the large pull ring. Requires two functional hands, or teeth as pictured. Heavier and more expensive but it definitely works. It's actually more comfortable because of the width.
We didn't have any kids around but I suspect the minimum limb size is much larger than a child's arm.
They make several variants. The one pictured is for over 120 pounds. I was able to put it on with one hand, so maybe they have upgraded. They just sent me this one for demo this week.
How is the "fake" going to be less than serviceable?
Watch the video I put up in post #4. As Sawin suggested, there's likely a huge range of quality among the fakes. You don't know what you got until you test it, hard.
Since cost is a factor for most of us, instead of buying 2 known fakes of questionable quality, consider buying a real CAT-7 and get a RATS as your backup. The latter is in no way equal to a CAT or SOF-T but it's lighter, smaller, and cheaper. Plus the RATS is superior for kids and dogs. I have an AR sling with a RATS sleeve built in and you barely tell it's there. One is none....
clodhopper
05-04-2017, 17:25
Watch the video I put up in post #4. As Sawin suggested, there's likely a huge range of quality among the fakes. You don't know what you got until you test it, hard.
Since cost is a factor for most of us, instead of buying 2 known fakes of questionable quality, consider buying a real CAT-7 and get a RATS as your backup. The latter is in no way equal to a CAT or SOF-T but it's lighter, smaller, and cheaper. Plus the RATS is superior for kids and dogs. I have an AR sling with a RATS sleeve built in and you barely tell it's there. One is none....
I am not trying to be an ass. BUT.... the video you reference does not answer my question. The only thing close was his test that the original needed only 2 twists while the fake needed 5. That doesn't tell me it wont be serviceable, but rather difference in application/use.
I get it. It is important to support quality providers, and there are many fanbois of having the best of the best. I am not LEO, paramedic, etc. EVERYTHING I purchase has to pass through the cost/value matrix as my money isn't endless and I have much more to purchase than just a fancy top end first aid kit.
hollohas
05-04-2017, 18:39
I am not trying to be an ass. BUT.... the video you reference does not answer my question. The only thing close was his test that the original needed only 2 twists while the fake needed 5. That doesn't tell me it wont be serviceable, but rather difference in application/use.
I get it. It is important to support quality providers, and there are many fanbois of having the best of the best. I am not LEO, paramedic, etc. EVERYTHING I purchase has to pass through the cost/value matrix as my money isn't endless and I have much more to purchase than just a fancy top end first aid kit.
I watched another video recently of a guy applying fake CATs to his own leg. They all broke before they could be applied correctly. I'll try to dig it up.
EDIT: link to more info and video.
Soldiersystems.net/2017/03/27/caveat-emptor-counterfeit-tourniquets-remain-an-issue/
https://vimeo.com/67103253
As I said in my previous post: (Page 1 #10)
We (Other TCCC instructors and I) played around with 5 from Amazon:
Weaker plastics - while using one we bent the windlass rod after a 1.5 turns, had one where the rod locking clip just bent out of the way from the pressure. Another where the clip broke and one where the buckles broke under pressure.
Velcro - not sewn properly, started to peel off during use
Windless Strap - wasn't actually running the entire length or snapped as seen in the video.
I had the privilege to train with the guys from North American Rescue and they had a suitcase of "off brand" CATs and they all broke under conditions that the real deal held up to.
It's $30 for a CAT, I get it. But it's a crap shoot on the fakes.
You might get lucky, we had one fake that we couldn't break. But it was from the same batch/seller as the ones we did break. You won't know until it's time to use it.
I don't know, $30 is about what I spend on a trip to the liquor store, and always less than what I spend on a tank of gas. I understand that fakes are half the price, but when the top price is only $30, I can't really justify the regular monetary litmus tests I would usually use.
I am not LEO, paramedic, etc. EVERYTHING I purchase has to pass through the cost/value matrix as my money isn't endless and I have much more to purchase than just a fancy top end first aid kit.
We are not talking about "a fancy top end first aid kit" but about a very important single component that anyone can learn to use to save themselves or another persons LIFE. I find it pretty sad that for the price difference of two bad fast food meals someone could find themselves saying to a person bleeding out....... Sorry dude ! My crap fake CAT- T just broke on you but I did save a FEW DOLLARS !!!
hurley842002
05-04-2017, 20:51
The chances of me having to use my ccw pistol in a defensive shooting are probably around the same as having to use a tourniquete, still, I would prefer my one Glock over two Hi Points any day.
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gnihcraes
05-04-2017, 21:11
Beating a dead pony, So how about purchasing the lesser cost item and testing it full strength, if it busts send it back. Find a lesser brand that functions and go with it. Pain in the butt, I know.
Anyone have a REAL one bust during use?
I'm more prone to buying quality items, but when it comes to the first aid kits and items, I would like to have one for every vehicle or every person or both. That adds up to a lot of $$'s.
Are they made by Geico, or The General?
I jest of course. I have legit CAT included in the IFAK's I purchased.
Beating a dead pony, So how about purchasing the lesser cost item and testing it full strength, if it busts send it back. Find a lesser brand that functions and go with it. Pain in the butt, I know.
Anyone have a REAL one bust during use?
I'm more prone to buying quality items, but when it comes to the first aid kits and items, I would like to have one for every vehicle or every person or both. That adds up to a lot of $$'s.
Looking around amazon the knock offs are going for about $14, so we are talking about $15-16 extra to have a real/good one.
I'm finding it really hard to believe that we are having three pages of discussion over $15....15 [Censor] dollars. A movie ticket? A run to McD's? Starbucks? To risk finding a "good" off brand? Really!?!
I'm done [Mad]
9/10 Funeral Directors recommend fake CAT's. 1/10 works part time as a paramedic.
Eta: Those into saving $10-15 might consider also getting some knock-off NPAs:
https://sc01.alicdn.com/kf/HTB17D89KVXXXXXAXpXXq6xXFXXXJ/Plastic-colored-reusable-drinking-straws-in-bulk.jpg
Needle Chest Decompression money saving idea: scour the local SHARPS bin for used syringes.
clodhopper
05-05-2017, 08:19
Looking around amazon the knock offs are going for about $14, so we are talking about $15-16 extra to have a real/good one.
I'm finding it really hard to believe that we are having three pages of discussion over $15....15 [Censor] dollars. A movie ticket? A run to McD's? Starbucks? To risk finding a "good" off brand? Really!?!
I'm done [Mad]
Get over yourself. Sorry we are taxing your sensibilities. Sure, we are talking only 15 effin dollars, until you look beyond your own self and think that other people may be buying for more than just themselves. Personally, I am looking at buying 8 or so. Your piddly little $15 difference just became significant dollars for me. See why I am trying to get a better understanding on the whole situation? So far I have only heard that the lower dollar ones sometime break, but that could be ruled out by testing it, and since it isn't a sterile or one-shot item, certainly test it. Probably a good thing for training if not just to verify the product. Oh, and the other reason not to buy a knock off... "Ya effin tightwad, its only 15 bones ya f*cktard!" yeah, that is a good reason all by itself.
Sheesh.
Maybe TCCC could do a fake CAT buy back; turn in fake CAT they can use to demonstrate fake CAT and receive real at cost of fake.
If you're broke turning a bicycle inner tube into a swat-t is cheaper and more effective than the fake cats
gnihcraes
05-05-2017, 10:18
Get over yourself. Sorry we are taxing your sensibilities. Sure, we are talking only 15 effin dollars, until you look beyond your own self and think that other people may be buying for more than just themselves. Personally, I am looking at buying 8 or so. Your piddly little $15 difference just became significant dollars for me. See why I am trying to get a better understanding on the whole situation? So far I have only heard that the lower dollar ones sometime break, but that could be ruled out by testing it, and since it isn't a sterile or one-shot item, certainly test it. Probably a good thing for training if not just to verify the product. Oh, and the other reason not to buy a knock off... "Ya effin tightwad, its only 15 bones ya f*cktard!" yeah, that is a good reason all by itself.
Sheesh.
Exactly, I'm looking at buying more than one. Each car and a IFAK or two... adds up when you compile all the additional items that should be in there. I put one together from items on amazon, and it was $220 for one kit. (included a REAL CAT).
Some of those items on the amazon list were bulk items and contained more than one, like band-aids and gauze. Dispense those into the multiple kits/cars/whatever.
I think that the market price of tourniquits is stable enough that you don't have to worry about buying them all at the same time to avoid higher prices in the future. At least there is that.
ACE2GOOD
05-05-2017, 10:42
Thanks for the info. I will be getting a good one from the resources provided!
osok-308
05-05-2017, 12:54
Alrighty. Somebody needs to help eshplain it to me.
I get it that the supposed "fake" isn't the real deal, but it was less cost and appears to me to still be just as functional, minus the narrow windlass issue. All the minor differences touted as identifying the fake don't appear to affect function. What is the big deal here? If you were paying full price and getting a knockoff, I could understand that. The amazon one is about half the cost, which means I can have two for the same price, more likely to have one handy. Don't bother tossing in here the "what is your life worth" argument, we all make value judgements on everything in life.
How is the "fake" going to be less than serviceable?
I get it. I'm not one to spend money needlessly, and if I can save the money, I will. I have trained a good amount with the real CAT tourniquets. I trust them, and to me, the extra $15.00 apiece is worth it to me. I'm not saying the fake one CAN'T save your life, in the highly unlikely event you'll need it, the fake one might work. I'll pose you with three different scenarios:
1. You buy 2 fake CAT tourniquets and they both work well. Congratulations, you spent half as much and have two pieces of life saving equipment.
2. You buy 2 fake CAT tourniquets and only one works well. Well, you spent the same amount you would have for the real deal and have a knock-off that should probably do the job (I'm assuming if their QC isn't great, their CS probably isn't either and replacing the bad one won't be easy or possible) **If by some miracle, their CS is good, you can send the faulty one(s) back and you are back in scenario #1**
3. You buy 2 fake CAT tourniquets and neither work well. Now you spent $30 and have nothing to show for it. *If by some miracle, their CS is good, you can send the faulty one(s) back and you are back in scenario #1**
If given the above three scenarios, you choose to go with the knock-offs, my only suggestion would be this: If QC is an issue with the brand you buy, ensure that EVERY one works. It would be shitty to find out that the one you trained with was the only one that worked out of the bunch of 8 you bought. The time to know whether they work or not is not when blood is spurting out of your leg.
In the other thread about these tourniquets, I mentioned a guy I work with who was shot through the thigh with a .300 WM and the tourniquet saved his life. I want to have THAT kind of confidence in the kit I'm using. Sure, the chance that you'll have to use one is probably less than the odds that you'll win the lottery in your lifetime, just like the odds that you'll ever have to pull your gun in a defensive scenario is relatively low. I don't carry a knock off CAT-T for the same reason I don't carry a Hi-Point for my ccw. Will a Hi-Point PROBABLY do the job you need it to if you have to pull your gun out? Probably, especially since the mere fact that you're armed may be enough to get rid of your threat. But in the off chance I actually have to fire my weapon in defense of myself or another, I carry the Glock that I have trained extensively with and have confidence in. If you chose to carry a Glock (or similar priced gun) over a Hi-Point, the difference of price is much more than the amount you would save by buying knock-offs (even if you bought 8, your savings would be a whopping $120, but maybe that savings is worth it to you).
There are some things I'd rather put extra money into and make sure I'm getting quality. I've learned that Murphy's law applies doubly to me. I've bought cheaper tools before and had it bite me in the ass. Like the time I was working on my car, the wrench I used sheared and I ended up punching the engine with my fist... now I buy higher quality wrenches, but I digress.
If the savings is worth it to you, go for it. I don't trust the knock-offs, but I'm not so elitist to say they CAN'T work. If the EMTs, LE, Mil, etc. are saying they don't trust knock-offs, I might trust their opinions. If you're buying 8, you'll probably get some that work and some that don't. Just make sure you inspect them before trusting in them. I only have two tourniquets, and the higher price for higher quality seemed worth it to me.
First let me apologize, I'm passionate about this topic. The reason I became a TCCC and CPR instructor are the experiences I have had on the job, and I see the importance of medical preparedness. I'm not trying to blast anyone who's on a budget, or be a jerk and I see how my last post could be taken as such.
I have a hard time seeing an 80% failure rate as "some times" failing. That's my experience with the fakes, where 100% of the real ones have held up to multiple applications through dozens of classes of 50+ people. Even if I can test and show a few good ones in a batch, I personally have a hard time then trusting the remaining "good" ones.
I'd be worried if mine were fake, seeing as they were the ones issued to me.
cmailliard
05-26-2017, 18:19
HBAR. If exposed to UV light for long periods of time they may degraded. I just replaced all of my older CAT's with Gen7's. Some of my older ones I have used in classes for 8 years and never had one break. Best recommendation is to upgrade your front line ones as you can, but the older ones should continue to work. Hope that helps.
cmailliard
05-26-2017, 21:15
It came up in another forum about orders from LAPG. So far nothing to worry about. The only reason I say be cautious under $25 and down right never buy if under $20 is I happen to know what the dealer cost is on these. At $25 there is a very small profit margin. LAPG probably moves a lot of product and a $25 CAT is something that gets buyers in to buy more, it is by far one of the lowest prices I have seen. I am sure it is an authentic CAT.
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