View Full Version : Anyone have any experience with solar?
So the wife and I just bought a house a couple months ago, moved into a new construction development in NW Arvada. The development doesn't *require* solar, per se, but does kind of push for it. They put us in touch with Solar City (who I found is owned by Tesla, Inc.). The guy came out today and gave us the initial consult, and it all sounds great, but I wanted to dig into this further. According to the guy, who is paid to talk up their tech, they set up the panels to 100% (or close to it) offset our electrical draw from Xcel (so basically, once the panels are paid for, we pay nothing for electricity). All sounds fantastic and perfect, but really?
Prior to the guy coming over, my wife met a neighbor who works at the National Renewable Energy Lab who told her that the technology isn't yet there, and the panels would wear out in 10 years. He said he wouldn't get panels on his house yet. My wife is kind of in the boat that when this guy gets solar panels, then we get solar panels. But it's still an ongoing discussion. Anyone here have any experience with solar?
Zundfolge
05-13-2017, 18:41
I guess the way I'd look at it is; how much is the next ten years of electricity going to cost? Are the panels more or less than this? What is the cost of maintenance of the panels over 10 years?
If you save more money buying and maintaining the panels, buy the panels (and I'd think it would have to be a good 20% or more savings to make it worth the hassle) if not, then wait.
If you can afford the panels I would highly recommend getting them now. It is possible to occasionally see zero on money owed to xcel but don't expect it all the time. Just depends on how much power you use each mont. You will see I sizeable reduction in your bill. But even with solar panels still do things like swap out bulbs for led ones, turn off lights you don't use, and don't leave things running.
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Fentonite
05-13-2017, 19:06
Grant H can answer about any question you have.
I don't have any knowledge about the solar stuff but I do know if someone is pushing you to buy something it likely isn't because it's necessarily what's best for you but usually more about someone making a sale.
Namaste is a good company and excel pays shit for excess voltage generated as well
Madeinhb
05-13-2017, 19:51
1 thing - don't rent the equipment. Purchase it.
Great-Kazoo
05-13-2017, 20:35
1 thing - don't rent the equipment. Purchase it.
BUT. weigh the cost of solar vs your average bill. We run maybe $40 month, if that, electrical use. I'd never see savings with the average cost of a solar system. If anything we'd be paying more for the equipment than our bill is annually
Madeinhb
05-13-2017, 20:37
BUT. weigh the cost of solar vs your average bill. We run maybe $40 month, if that, electrical use. I'd never see savings with the average cost of a solar system. If anything we'd be paying more for the equipment than our bill is annually
Possibly. But I was told if you rent, you don't get any of the tax incentives.
I wish the tax breaks for this would end. Any tech or product worth buying should be able to compete on its own merits without cronie capitalism stealing money from me for your stuff.
BushMasterBoy
05-13-2017, 21:59
Seen a bunch of negative reviews. This is one example. Google "Solar City reviews".
http://www.highya.com/solarcity-reviews
Solar City is losing money hand over fist. Since Tesla has them entirely under their wing, it's also dragging down Tesla.
From my research, basically the best thing going sorta is the actual tesla shingles and battery, but even then making some sense only for high end homes and commercial stuff. And believing panels last as long as stated along with them staying in business for the warranty. Basically it's a "wait 5 years" if it succeeds and watch costs come down. The shingles very pricey, I think it was like 100k total for average good sized home before rebates etc. Something like 9 to 12k of that is just the battery.
Battery tech is still got some things to overcome, and fortunately costs are coming down some and seen a few possible lithium alternatives coming on line including one by the guy who originally made the lithiums that power all our phones etc.
So suffice to say I'd skip for now. In the very early days it was better when utilities were paying you a lot but theyve been cutting payments so it's a lot harder to recoup investment unless you are eco nut.
Great-Kazoo
05-14-2017, 08:25
Possibly. But I was told if you rent, you don't get any of the tax incentives.
Even buying, not all cities & towns do the rebate, as is done with appliances. The cost still outweighs the benefits, when you're talking 3x the investment & return over paying for electrical.
BUT. weigh the cost of solar vs your average bill. We run maybe $40 month, if that, electrical use. I'd never see savings with the average cost of a solar system. If anything we'd be paying more for the equipment than our bill is annually
This was exactly our concern. We didn't yet run the numbers, but the panels cost about $10k, they offer a pay now in full, 10 yr lease, or 20 yr lease, all of which has a full 20 year warranty (we only have to pay what we break, they cover everything else).
Possibly. But I was told if you rent, you don't get any of the tax incentives.
Solar City doesn't rent, they lease their panels. We would still get the tax incentives, which kind of pisses me off in one aspect, because it's more betting on "green" energy by the government.
We're still doing research into the long term viability of solar, but everything on paper (granted, provided by them) looks to help cut costs, but we want to wait and see.
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Madeinhb
05-14-2017, 08:30
This was exactly our concern. We didn't yet run the numbers, but the panels cost about $10k, they offer a pay now in full, 10 yr lease, or 20 yr lease, all of which has a full 20 year warranty (we only have to pay what we break, they cover everything else).
Solar City doesn't rent, they lease their panels. We would still get the tax incentives, which kind of pisses me off in one aspect, because it's more betting on "green" energy by the government.
We're still doing research into the long term viability of solar, but everything on paper (granted, provided by them) looks to help cut costs, but we want to wait and see.
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Someone I know who leased said they didn't get the federal tax and all that because they didn't own the solar. All 2nd hand though as I dont have solar.
The other thing to take into account leasing is the length of lease. If a person decides to sell house, I believe the lease has to get transferred to the new owner. And they may not want the lease.
Bailey Guns
05-14-2017, 08:48
I wish the tax breaks for this would end. Any tech or product worth buying should be able to compete on its own merits without cronie capitalism stealing money from me for your stuff.
I tend to agree with this.
Also, if it was that good, everyone would have it. If you have to look at this as hard as you are to justify getting it... Well, maybe it's not the deal the salesman is trying to convince you it is.
On the other hand, I know about as much about solar systems (the kind you put on your house...not the kind that involves planets orbiting around a sun) as I do solar systems (the kind that involves planets orbiting around a sun...not the kid you put on your house).
I tend to agree with this.
Also, if it was that good, everyone would have it. If you have to look at this as hard as you are to justify getting it... Well, maybe it's not the deal the salesman is trying to convince you it is.
You do make a good point here, Carl.
Just say NO...if you lease it, you are reducing your homes future resale potential...buyers have to agree to your solar lease terms...if you buy the system, you will never get what you haven't yet recouped in energy savings from a buyer.
T. B. Turner
05-14-2017, 10:31
Solar panels have been around since the 70's and have never seemed to have really caught on. I had a customer in golden that had them on her roof. She explained how the system worked was that the power the panels produced went back into the grid and she was credited back on her bill. The power not feed directly into her home.
Also I wondered with them being on the roof how much of a PIA would it be to replace the roof when needed.
Sometimes I think sales people have as about as much compassion toward their clientele as a hungry great white shark has toward a sea lion........if they don't make sales they don't eat.
BushMasterBoy
05-14-2017, 10:58
If it really is that good, why isn't it on the roof of every Walmart?
I expect the subsidies to dry up as the new administration continues it's push for fossil fuels and draws down on the renewable energy nonsense.
There just is not the same amount of available energy through solar or wind per unit of measuret as there is with fossil fuels or nuclear. It's a simple matter of physics/chemestry, and no amount of "technological advance" will change that.
T. B. Turner
05-14-2017, 11:25
If it really is that good, why isn't it on the roof of every Walmart?
Good point, for as long as they have been around, if they were a good idea we would see many more of them.
theGinsue
05-14-2017, 12:04
I guess the way I'd look at it is; how much is the next ten years of electricity going to cost? Are the panels more or less than this? What is the cost of maintenance of the panels over 10 years?
If you save more money buying and maintaining the panels, buy the panels (and I'd think it would have to be a good 20% or more savings to make it worth the hassle) if not, then wait.
It is this exactly that has kept me from making the jump to putting solar on my home.
One thing to consider that hasn't yet been brought up is this: One advantage to solar is that you aren't 100% reliant on the power grid. Yes, you can expect there will be usage of power from the grid but you'll always have some amount of self-produced power even if the grid goes down. This can help heat/cool your home and keep the refrigerator/freezer running during power outages. Depending on your battery system it may provide power throughout the dark hours. It is this consideration more than any other that's had me revisiting the idea of installing solar.
The panels don't really wear out, they can last many decades with only minor degradation of output. The big expense is if/when your inverter(s) dies after about 10 years. That's one advantage of leasing since it's covered under warranty. We went with a 6.8 kW system (33 panels) installed by Namaste and leased from SunRun when the incentives were particularly good about 7 years ago. So far, it's been a good experience and we have no regrets.
Something to consider, depending on the design of your roof, is solar avalanches. After a big snow storm and the sun comes out, those slick panels will dump a huge quantity of snow. It would really suck to get hit by one of these! There's a potential for ripping gutters off too. They can mitigate this somewhat by leaving enough shingle below the panels to hold the snow. Those Tesla shingles covering a whole roof would be terrible in snow country.
It is this exactly that has kept me from making the jump to putting solar on my home.
One thing to consider that hasn't yet been brought up is this: One advantage to solar is that you aren't 100% reliant on the power grid. Yes, you can expect there will be usage of power from the grid but you'll always have some amount of self-produced power even if the grid goes down. This can help heat/cool your home and keep the refrigerator/freezer running during power outages. Depending on your battery system it may provide power throughout the dark hours. It is this consideration more than any other that's had me revisiting the idea of installing solar.
Agreed. For me solar is not a cost/benefit so much as possible tool of necessity. I have considered it for the house, but it is not cost effective. Since I have natural gas at the house, a multi-fuel generator combined with some solar and wind tied to a large battery bank would be useful. I just don't have the space for the batteries.
Lately I have been using a small panel (21W) from Anker to keep a couple of small handheld backup batteries topped up while on the road. These keep my phone, some small lights and Baofeng running when absolutely necessary. I like the idea of portable solar generators because one of the things I dislike most about gas generators is the noise. I think if I had an off grid house, I would invest in a solar/wind solution after insuring I had a reliable water supply and sewage system. The key to solar and wind is still the batteries. Big, expensive, and needy is how I feel about most battery systems today.
If I was getting solar to feed the utility company's grid, they would need to pay me for the power generated and a little rent for the space I am providing on the roof. I know the utilities pay less for electricity generated by coal/gas/oil. Our government mandates require the utilities to pay increased cost to use wind/solar to generate power and naturally those costs are passed along to us. No downside for the utilities and yet another way we get the government we deserve.
One day I will change power sources at home...when it makes sound financial sense and not before.
There just is not the same amount of available energy through solar or wind per unit of measuret as there is with fossil fuels or nuclear. It's a simple matter of physics/chemestry, and no amount of "technological advance" will change that.
And I'll throw in "consistency". The power grid is a finely tuned instrument and the variability of solar and wind isn't very useful. Until solar and wind power can be reliably and efficiently stored and precisely introduced into the grid, it will have limited viability.
It is this exactly that has kept me from making the jump to putting solar on my home.
One thing to consider that hasn't yet been brought up is this: One advantage to solar is that you aren't 100% reliant on the power grid. Yes, you can expect there will be usage of power from the grid but you'll always have some amount of self-produced power even if the grid goes down. This can help heat/cool your home and keep the refrigerator/freezer running during power outages. Depending on your battery system it may provide power throughout the dark hours. It is this consideration more than any other that's had me revisiting the idea of installing solar.
I have been on multiple outages related to Xcel power going down. Lakewood, and West Denver area. People come out to the truck to see when power will be up. Middle of the day so I asked the guy why he cares, and point at his panels. He tells me its require to power down when power goes down. So the linemen don't get lit up with feed FROM house. Not sure why they cant just disconnect from the grid, I've seen this a few times. I'm not sure if all areas do the same, however I have heard it from multiple excel customers during power outages.
Oh, and if you haven't been discouraged yet, I read an article last week about Tesla's new Solar venture....SHINGLES that capture solar power. They will be rolling them out soon. Why buy the old tech, when they have already announced and shown their next generation devices?
Oh, and if you haven't been discouraged yet, I read an article last week about Tesla's new Solar venture....SHINGLES that capture solar power. They will be rolling them out soon. Why buy the old tech, when they have already announced and shown their next generation devices?
Yeah, they're uber expensive. The comparison I read about was $61K for a roof with 40% solar shingles, $17K for real slate, and $5K for asphalt. You will likely never make that cost difference back. I'll see if I can find the article.
Not the same article, but was updated on May 10th with estimates. For my home, it would cost about $72,700. I'm not sure I'd live long enough to ever make it out of the red on the extra expense.
How much will a Tesla Solar Roof cost on my home?
http://www.teslarati.com/consumer-reports-estimates-tesla-solar-roof-cost/
I have been on multiple outages related to Xcel power going down. Lakewood, and West Denver area. People come out to the truck to see when power will be up. Middle of the day so I asked the guy why he cares, and point at his panels. He tells me its require to power down when power goes down. So the linemen don't get lit up with feed FROM house. Not sure why they cant just disconnect from the grid, I've seen this a few times. I'm not sure if all areas do the same, however I have heard it from multiple excel customers during power outages.
The transfer switch is extra $. Systems without a transfer switch are required to monitor line voltage so the system goes down with the grid so you dont fry the line guys or firefighters that have to shut down a block.
BushMasterBoy
05-14-2017, 16:42
The idea of solar I like. But I don't want it on the roof. I want it in the back yard. And I want a system I can maintain my self. A few of my neighbors have it, but I think they drank some of the salesfolks koolaid. I'll just build my own. If you really want to get into it subscribe to this magazine. I used to subscribe, but have been way too busy last few years to even consider it.
https://www.homepower.com/articles/solar-electricity/design-installation/diy-or-pro
theGinsue
05-14-2017, 17:44
I have been on multiple outages related to Xcel power going down. Lakewood, and West Denver area. People come out to the truck to see when power will be up. Middle of the day so I asked the guy why he cares, and point at his panels. He tells me its require to power down when power goes down. So the linemen don't get lit up with feed FROM house. Not sure why they cant just disconnect from the grid, I've seen this a few times. I'm not sure if all areas do the same, however I have heard it from multiple excel customers during power outages.
As 00tec said, there are transfer switches you can install to avoid the grid feed issue. These are also used on homes that have backup generators. The transfer switches also ensure nothing gets fried when the grid power comes back on. There are manual switches and the more expensive automatic switches which take the guess work out of the prcess and ensure you've got power if you're not at home when the grid power goes out.
Great-Kazoo
05-14-2017, 19:49
Yeah, they're uber expensive. The comparison I read about was $61K for a roof with 40% solar shingles, $17K for real slate, and $5K for asphalt. You will likely never make that cost difference back. I'll see if I can find the article.
Not the same article, but was updated on May 10th with estimates. For my home, it would cost about $72,700. I'm not sure I'd live long enough to ever make it out of the red on the extra expense.
How much will a Tesla Solar Roof cost on my home?
http://www.teslarati.com/consumer-reports-estimates-tesla-solar-roof-cost/
$61 K ! that's more than my house cost
As 00tec said, there are transfer switches you can install to avoid the grid feed issue. These are also used on homes that have backup generators. The transfer switches also ensure nothing gets fried when the grid power comes back on. There are manual switches and the more expensive automatic switches which take the guess work out of the prcess and ensure you've got power if you're not at home when the grid power goes out.
No, I get the transfer switch thing as looking at a system that had battery and generator back ups. I would not have a system that needed grid power. It could be the regs during period of install. Things might have evolved? If not a legal requirement why you do something so dumb as to need grid power to make it work? Either way, I'd wait for solar to refine itself a bit.
The developer wants you to get solar so they can advertise the community as being green, bringing in more lefties to the unsold hood.
Just saying, refusing solar may land you neighbors you want, not despise.
gnihcraes
05-14-2017, 22:04
I'm probably wrong, but all grid tied systems need to be run with an inverter that is Line Powered, so when the line is down it's not back feeding the grid. Safety.
My solar city setup is line powered.
There are many providers of solar now locally. I'd suggest looking into someone other than solar city. A recent thread on the nextdoor website here showed multiple vendors outside of solar city and namaste. Customer service after sale with solar city sucks. I've had no issues to report, yet a friend who had roof damage and suspected the solar city install, couldn't get them to respond. Finally ended up paying a lawyer to sue them to get a response out of them. So, avoid solar city.
Mine is a lease system. Many folks frown on the lease and a lot of the negative involves re-sale of the home etc. I haven't planned on moving and probably never will, moot point to me, but if you're a person who is nomad all the time and moving, don't get a solar system, bought or leased.
Mine is a small system due to house structure issues with old house. 1922. I recently have had one of the best days produced! The system has produced half our usage. I pay solar city $20 month on the lease.
20.9kWh
70548
as for hail damage, none taken here on solar system, yet roof took a beating and will be replaced. On the lease, solar city is on the hook for everything if it quits working or damaged. It will be interesting to see how quickly solar city will come out to remove the panels to allow the roof repairs like they claim during the "sale". Hopefully I don't need a lawyer.
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