Should You Act? - Get Involved Or Run Away?

[roberth]

I thought this was a pretty good write-up.


Every so often we get a thread at Warrior Talk asking about what a CCW person should do if he sees a crime, or some apparent victimization.The implied question of course is the quest for justification of the desire to jump in with both feet to save the day. That inherent desire, while noble, may also be quite foolish and self-destructive. But staying out of everything doesn't have to be the mantra either. Like many things - it depends.

http://blog.suarezinternational.com/2017/05/should-you-act-get-involved-or-get-away.html

[Great-Kazoo]

Be a good witness.

UNLESS one was witness to the entire scenario, you never know what actually happened, or the truth is. Which goes to my next reply.

NOW, if i hear a woman screaming for help and there's a clear view she is a victim. OR i see someone giving a beat down to a person in the parking lot. Or i hear my neighbor[s] screaming for help. Then yes i'm all in.

[TFOGGER]

Preserve life(your own and your family's, first and foremost), be a good witness, don't try to be a cop or a hero. There are few absolutes in life, one just tries to use the best judgement in the time available in any given situation.

[Rumline]

NOW, if i hear a woman screaming for help and there's a clear view she is a victim. OR i see someone giving a beat down to a person in the parking lot. Or i hear my neighbor[s] screaming for help. Then yes i'm all in.
Kids are another one for me. In this case I mean <10 years old. It is extremely unlikely that kids that young are the aggressors in a situation.

[gnihcraes]

I tried to be a good witness a while back. I never posted here about it.

While trying to follow the suspect and just witness him and where he was going - hopefully to let the PD know when they showed up. This guy makes multiple threats to myself and a couple of others that are with me doing the same thing - witness. Eventually one of the witnesses gets a smart mouth and says "you can't take all 5 of us" and then the fight was on - guy turns around on myself and another guy next to me. "oh yeah"

Well, it didn't last long, we had him down and under control. Nobody hurt. Thankfully we were able to flag Lakewood PD down and they were there in a matter of ~ 30 seconds code 3. We gave up contact information about what we saw and haven't been contacted yet. Not sure what ever became of the situation. (assault sbi)

Moral of the story, don't yell "you can't take us all". idiot. Everything was fine "observing" and witnessing until that was said.

It was fun to see the guy try to run with handcuffs on though, PD clothes lined him back to the ground. lol

[Ronin13]

I would echo what's already been said, better to be a good witness- dependent upon the situation you find yourself in witness to. Even for myself, if I'm off-duty (goes x2 if my family is with me), I'm not likely to act unless it's absolutely necessary or the situation looks to go bad and I need to act. I'm also asked, from time to time, what a CCW person should do if they encounter a lone LEO with one at gunpoint. I hesitate to say they should render aid, backup is more than likely en route, and an armed person who they don't know just showed up- are they really there to help, or are they another bad guy? I mostly would say do nothing. As for what I would do, that's a different story as I rarely, if ever, leave home without my badge, gun, and cuffs on my person.

[MrAK]

I imagine that if I arrived on a scene with an officer in distress then I would try to ask if the officer needed assistance before trying to render aid. Then again, as most people have said, it's all dependent on the situation.


I would echo what's already been said, better to be a good witness- dependent upon the situation you find yourself in witness to. Even for myself, if I'm off-duty (goes x2 if my family is with me), I'm not likely to act unless it's absolutely necessary or the situation looks to go bad and I need to act. I'm also asked, from time to time, what a CCW person should do if they encounter a lone LEO with one at gunpoint. I hesitate to say they should render aid, backup is more than likely en route, and an armed person who they don't know just showed up- are they really there to help, or are they another bad guy? I mostly would say do nothing. As for what I would do, that's a different story as I rarely, if ever, leave home without my badge, gun, and cuffs on my person.

[Blowby]

If my family and myself are not in line of fire or directly threatened then remove ourself from the situation. I have spent financial resourses and time, like many of us have, in being educated CCW holders. I hope many more out there as well and if they haven't then they've paid local taxes to have the police protection needed in these types of events. As many of us have decided to be our first line of defense I will not jeopardize my future to compensate for others who believe the right to carry or believing in the 2nd amendment is unnecessary.

[izzy]

There was a story recently in Denver where the guy tried to help and got beaten to death. I'll look for a link.

[izzy]

http://kdvr.com/2017/06/22/family-talks-about-62-year-old-good-samaritan-beaten-to-death-in-denver-street/

[Kilyung]

I honestly can't imagine what goes through a person's mind in a situation where you're called upon to act.

http://www.wctv.tv/content/news/Local-residents-react-to-man-who-shot-Lee-Co-deputys-attacker-401366615.html

[William]

This comment got me thinking:

"I spoke to an LA County Deputy once whose daughter was shot and killed by two armed robbers when he elected to intervene at the store they were robbing. Listen people…if you have your family with you, everyone else is on their own. Unless the bad guys have targeted you and them specifically, go on your way. Whatever is happening is none of your business. Certainly, call 911, but leave and keep them safe. Sorry to sound “cowardly” but anyone who says they will risk their family to save someone else’s money is a fool."

[Jer]

This comment got me thinking:

"I spoke to an LA County Deputy once whose daughter was shot and killed by two armed robbers when he elected to intervene at the store they were robbing. Listen people…if you have your family with you, everyone else is on their own. Unless the bad guys have targeted you and them specifically, go on your way. Whatever is happening is none of your business. Certainly, call 911, but leave and keep them safe. Sorry to sound “cowardly” but anyone who says they will risk their family to save someone else’s money is a fool."

This is the thinking I adopted almost ten years ago. If I can get me & mine out... That's the right choice. Sucks for the unarmed but my gun is for protecting me & mine. I'm not having life changing litigation for saving someone who likely won't even appreciate it.

[Bailey Guns]

This is the thinking I adopted almost ten years ago. If I can get me & mine out... That's the right choice. Sucks for the unarmed but my gun is for protecting me & mine. I'm not having life changing litigation for saving someone who likely won't even appreciate it.

That's exactly the mindset we taught in our classes. There's always the law of unexpected consequences and it'll jump up and bite you in the ass when you least expect it. Barring unusual circumstances, my wife and I are unassing the are area as quickly and safely as possible. It's not because I'm afraid of bad guys...it's because I'm afraid of the infinite number of ways intervention can go wrong, both at the time of the event and later on during potential (and likely) criminal and/or civil proceedings.

I've been sued for $17M once for something I didn't even do...that was enough.

[wctriumph]

Yeah, I have always felt the best thing to do is be a good witness but ...

It gets to me when I see a big one beating up a little one that can't fight back and men beating women or kids. I guess I have been pretty lucky as the few times I have stepped in the beat down stopped and the bully left the area.

If someone starts shooting, I will make a hasty exit with what is mine (wife, daughter, other family or friends). I don't carry to be a policeman, I carry for self defense and I pray that I never have to shoot anyone, ever.

In the end, it will as always, depend on the situation and available information.

I don't get road rage either, I just let the idiots go with a friendly wave.

[kpp80202]

Good link. (And discussion.) It really makes you think.

[XJ]

Why did you sensationalize the title to "run away" ?

[spqrzilla]

Remember that police officers come sprayed all head to toe with Qualified Immunity. And you don't.

[cstone]

Remember that police officers come sprayed all head to toe with Qualified Immunity. And you don't.

The presumption is that they will be covered but there are many people in the system who will weigh in on every case as to whether any officer/agent is covered after a use of force incident. I've said it before; You can do everything right and still be wrong. We are all just one mistake away from a tragedy and that mistake may not be yours.

Be safe.

[Great-Kazoo]

The presumption is that they will be covered but there are many people in the system who will weigh in on every case as to whether any officer/agent is covered after a use of force incident. I've said it before; You can do everything right and still be wrong. We are all just one mistake away from a tragedy and that mistake may not be yours.

Be safe.

Darren Wilson.

[OtterbatHellcat]

As mentioned, this is a good thread to be talking and thinking about.

I know nobody wants to see the "what if this?" kind of shit show happen here, and there are lots of "what if's" to contemplate. We've all heard about or seen stories about situations that occurred, video or whatever.....but you do need to think about what you might do if you are caught up in one that is developing right in front of you. I live in a bad crime area right off of one of the seediest streets in Denver. I frequently walk to the 7-11 for stupid shit from time to time, at any given time of day. Just recently on this seedy street, a quickie mart shopper was shot and killed during a robbery while exiting the store.

I have to confess that in my mind I've already kind of decided that if I can stop any type of active mass shooting, I will act. With that said, that means while I carry to protect myself, it would stand to reason that if I can save the life of an innocent who is in the midst of imminent threat of becoming deceased....I should try to help. The different categories of emotional aspects could vary between gratification in the justified dusting of a douchebag, guilt from dusting a wannabe with a toy gun, life long guilt from a clerk dying because you didn't act when you could have, and insert all the other things that can go wrong during an intervention of the given situation.

The legal side of stuff is so effed up we can't even really get in depth with that crap because it could get messy so many different ways that are going against you, it's sickening.

Let's say I approach the store entrance, see the clerk at point blank, I be a good witness and duck away quick and call 911..... actor shoots clerk and exits store while I'm answering stupid questions from the 911 operator, and actor sees me: THEN....... (enter infinite storyline possibilities here.)

If Roberth changed the title to add Run Away....that's what it literally means. I would have to run my ass somewhere safe to call 911 while under good cover, and abandon somebody that needed help in a bad fukin way. It's a really damn hard deal to make that kind of decision in a matter of seconds without question.

[mattiooo]

There are never guarantees it will work out for your saftey or your legal well being, but it's nice to hear about when people don't get punished for doing something to help:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/no-charges-man-killed-neighbor-drown-twins-article-1.3311837

[OtterbatHellcat]

but it's nice to hear about when people don't get punished for doing something to help:

Yes it is, and I do pray that I'm never in a situation where I have to face that kind of decision to protect someone else or not to.

If somebody died because I did nothing when I could have, it would eat at me the rest of my life.... I know it would.