View Full Version : Another attempted gun store burglary
From the Parker PD facebook page:
Early this morning at 3 a.m., officers responded to an attempted burglary at Pony Express Firearms, located at 10970 S. Parker Road, on a report of a black SUV, later determined to be a stolen Jeep, that attempted to drive through the front entrance of the store. The SUV hit a barrier and an unknown number of suspects were seen by a witness fleeing the vehicle. The suspects entered a second vehicle heading northbound on Parker Road. Local area law enforcement agencies were notified and Parker Detectives are currently on scene.The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives was notified and are assisting with the investigation.
No firearms were taken.
.455_Hunter
06-23-2017, 11:05
Yup- a complete waste LE resources and taxpayers money to try to catch these guys in the act...
hurley842002
06-23-2017, 11:27
Yup- a complete waste LE resources and taxpayers money to try to catch these guys in the act...
Yup, store owners should be on notice, and take appropriate measures to secure their merchandise.
.455_Hunter
06-23-2017, 11:43
Yup, store owners should be on notice, and take appropriate measures to secure their merchandise.
An absolutely correct statement. Both approaches are appropriate given the current frequency of events.
Several of the ramrod cars have been jeep suvs....
SuperiorDG
06-23-2017, 14:56
Several of the ramrod cars have been jeep suvs....
Probably think 4x4 has better chance breaking through. Or may they just know how to steal that make.
GilpinGuy
06-23-2017, 17:01
Yup, store owners should be on notice, and take appropriate measures to secure their merchandise.
I haven't seen any pics, but it looks like this shop did. Jeep hit a barrier and no guns taken.
hurley842002
06-23-2017, 17:04
I haven't seen any pics, but it looks like this shop did. Jeep hit a barrier and no guns taken.
I wasn't necessarily speaking on this specific incident, but in general.
GilpinGuy
06-23-2017, 17:38
I wasn't necessarily speaking on this specific incident, but in general.
Yeah, I was agreeing with you. Good on them for having an effective barrier (it appears thay way anyway).
I know I may be going off the deep end but I keep thinking this is part of a plan to get more anti-gun laws. I'm thinking hickemlooper and his buddies have a sting shop set up paying big money for any gun, no questions asked. This has created a demand that the local bad guys are looking to fill. These bad guys are probably illegal already and know that their sanctuary status would help them slide away if they get caught. hicks crew thinks if enough stolen guns are recovered then they can get credit for saving lives while at the same time give the legislature excuses to make more laws that would drive small gun shops out of business.
On the other hand maybe I need to double the layers of tin foil on my headgear.[Peep]
They are wasting their time stealing guns. They will never be able to move them since a buyer will be required to show ID and get a background check. The gun will show stolen during background check and cops or ATF will scoop them up.
How stupid can they be?
Great-Kazoo
06-23-2017, 20:32
I know I may be going off the deep end but
.[Peep]
There are a lot of "things" They bankroll, that seem to happen during what one would call a lull .
Is it
C- Coincidence
OR
C - Conspiracy
BushMasterBoy
06-23-2017, 22:22
It is a 50 billion dollar a year business. It is only a 12 hour drive from here. It is also considered a war.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_Drug_War
Ban Jeeps!
That'll fix it.
OneGuy67
06-26-2017, 08:51
They are wasting their time stealing guns. They will never be able to move them since a buyer will be required to show ID and get a background check. The gun will show stolen during background check and cops or ATF will scoop them up.
How stupid can they be?
The serial number of the firearm is not run by the FFL when conducting a background check. It isn't even relayed to CBI as part of the check. It is usually annotated on the 4473 after the completion of the check.
wctriumph
06-26-2017, 09:16
The serial number of the firearm is not run by the FFL when conducting a background check. It isn't even relayed to CBI as part of the check. It is usually annotated on the 4473 after the completion of the check.
Up here in NOCO, two of the FFL's I use for transfers do check to see if the private party transfer firearms are stolen. They record the SN for their bookkeeping and they check to see it they are reported stolen. I don't know how they check but the employees tell me they check every gun.
OneGuy67
06-26-2017, 09:43
Up here in NOCO, two of the FFL's I use for transfers do check to see if the private party transfer firearms are stolen. They record the SN for their bookkeeping and they check to see it they are reported stolen. I don't know how they check but the employees tell me they check every gun.
It would depend on how they are doing this. There is no public database for stolen firearms available that accesses the CCIC/NCIC database, where all stolen firearm serial numbers are checked through. If they are calling the local PD/SO to do it, that could be a violation of the CCIC/NCIC rules and the LE agency could get their license to utilize the system pulled. The database is for LE purposes only. It would be similar to someone calling and asking for DMV information on a party and having that information provided to them.
There are some private databases available that people can provide the serial numbers voluntarily, but that isn't as encompassing as the CCIC/NCIC database.
Great-Kazoo
06-26-2017, 10:31
The serial number of the firearm is not run by the FFL when conducting a background check. It isn't even relayed to CBI as part of the check. It is usually annotated on the 4473 after the completion of the check.
While i understand the facts you mentioned when a 4473 is done. His sarcasm was telling.
While i understand the facts you mentioned when a 4473 is done. His sarcasm was telling.
It was a good troll, pretty subtle and serious sounding. Almost slipped by my dry humor.
OneGuy67
06-26-2017, 10:58
While i understand the facts you mentioned when a 4473 is done. His sarcasm was telling.
If it was sarcasm, my sarcasm sensor is not functioning properly then. I took it at face value.
Great-Kazoo
06-26-2017, 14:21
It was a good troll, pretty subtle and serious sounding. Almost slipped by my dry humor.
If it was sarcasm, my sarcasm sensor is not functioning properly then. I took it at face value.
Well I hope it was a sarcastic reply, based on how i read it. Then again, it wouldn't surprise me he/she was serious.
Yep totally not worth wasting our tax $$$ to keep guns out of the hands of criminals.. It's much better spent on DUI checkpoints this coming weekend.
DCF got it last night... another Jeep.
http://www.9news.com/mb/news/crime/gun-store-burglarized-in-castle-rock/452383795
Getting a little out of hand. So now they've figured out that ramming doesn't always work due to barriers, so they are going to chain up and rip off the doors/gates instead.
I read one article that said 45 weapons since April...
If I were a shop owner, id get real serious about security if I hadnt already.
Always the jeeps, makes it sound like that issue with Jeep/parent company with folks getting ahold of the ability to remote start or whatever them. (Months back news briefly covered ah my god Chrysler vehicles hackable.)
Always the jeeps, makes it sound like that issue with Jeep/parent company with folks getting ahold of the ability to remote start or whatever them. (Months back news briefly covered ah my god Chrysler vehicles hackable.)
They are using older Cherokees. They are just easy to steal.
Good thing background checks will keep all those guns off the streets.
It's likely the same crew that's been hitting all these stores. Why aren't they caught yet? Page 1 nails it. A stakeout would end this real quick.
If anything, this illustrates the fallacy of safety/security. If bad people want something bad enough, LE can't always stand in their way.
Chaining the front door isn't anything new.. it was in the news a few years back when this smash/grab shit with gun stores started. Just like how they steal ATM's from gas stations.. chains.. and pull.
DenverGP
06-27-2017, 10:30
A stakeout would end this real quick.
Which of the hundreds of gun stores in the Denver area should they stake out? Do you know for sure that there hasn't been a stakeout at any of the gun stores in the Denver area?
colorider
06-27-2017, 10:33
The owners could hang out inside and do their own security.
GilpinGuy
06-27-2017, 10:56
A bunch of the shop owners should get together and agree to stake out one of their shops each night ramdomly. A few of these bastard thieves get popped and maybe they'll think twice.
DireWolf
06-27-2017, 11:06
I'd be curious as to whether this trend is being seen in other locations...
Without national-level reporting on this issue, it could possibly be far more widespread than currently assumed (e.g. local issue), and if so, could easily be an prelude to or the opening/preperatory moves of a large-scale distributed attack for which as many weapons as possible are needed to arm criminal/insurgent forces...In fact, the persistence and frequency involved would directly support that scenario.
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I read about this happening all over the country, seems to be a nation wide issue.
Yup, the thug world chat line has been hot for a long time with what works and what doesn't. As said the older Jeeps are easy pickins. At what point does a store hire an off hours security guard and have a vehicle parked in front of the doors? Make it less attractive and they move on. Sure it's an added expense that would get passed on to the consumer but it sure beats the hell out of guns in criminal hands.
Yup, the thug world chat line has been hot for a long time with what works and what doesn't. As said the older Jeeps are easy pickins. At what point does a store hire an off hours security guard and have a vehicle parked in front of the doors? Make it less attractive and they move on. Sure it's an added expense that would get passed on to the consumer but it sure beats the hell out of guns in criminal hands.
I have not checked on the price of a security guard recently and am only guessing that would cost about $300 per night per store. Look at the cost of that over a 365 day period and I don't think any of the stores could stay in business. Not being critical of you sir but I don't think that is cost effective for any of these stores.
thebolt, no criticism perceived on my part, we're good. You make excellent points-not a permanent solution. But perhaps putting a vehicle in front of the doors (potentially tied in to the alarm system as well) would help deter the pricks.
The reality is that its a business. They take reasonable security measures and pay their premiums. Until insurance says "you must do this or else", I dont think much will change. Running a business is expensive. Its not the easiest to just add expenses of additional security when insurance will cover the loss. Business is about the bottom line, gun shops are no different.
colorider
06-27-2017, 22:14
Put the guns in a vault at night or when closed. Problem solved.
Aloha_Shooter
06-27-2017, 23:15
I have not checked on the price of a security guard recently and am only guessing that would cost about $300 per night per store. Look at the cost of that over a 365 day period and I don't think any of the stores could stay in business. Not being critical of you sir but I don't think that is cost effective for any of these stores.
... and yet it's cost-effective for police to stake-out dozens of gun stores for days or weeks until they manage to be at the right one at the right time according to some on the board. How about securing the danged things at close-up so they can't simply ram-and-run or grab-and-go? I have a friend with a shop and that's what he does every night. Costs him an extra hour of work but he figures it's worth it to prevent this kind of robbery.
.455_Hunter
06-28-2017, 06:55
Now the Centennial Gun Club was hit unsuccessfully last night. Not sure if the MO was the same based on the initial news story.
Isn't that five shops in the past week now?
As a society, we pool resources to pay to things that provide a common benefit, including LE operations. I guess it's a wackjob idea that maybe this string of crimes is worth the use of some public money to attempt a proactive arrest of the perps in the act. Maybe, for a defined term, stopping this activity needs to be a priority operation for a broad spectrum of LE agencies, not just the local PD. Or, should we just keep responding retroactively to shops being targeted, one every other day or so, for the rest of the summer?
Security guards might be a nice deterrent, but it's now at the point that deterring is just kicking the can down the road to another target.
And yes, nothing here reduces the shops need to make sure they are not an "all you can take" gun buffet for a smash & enter robbery team, otherwise the ATF and the insurance companies will be making decisions for them.
Can't we just shoot the bastards?
Which of the hundreds of gun stores in the Denver area should they stake out? Do you know for sure that there hasn't been a stakeout at any of the gun stores in the Denver area?
Hundreds? I wish! :)
Martinjmpr
06-28-2017, 09:01
Put the guns in a vault at night or when closed. Problem solved.
Every time I see one of these that's the first thing I wonder: Why were the guns not in vaults or other secure areas?
Yes, I know it takes time and costs money (maybe you have to pay your employees an extra hour of wages to get them to come in early or leave late) But you know what? I'll bet it doesn't take as much time or cost as much money as they lose when they get one of these smash-and-grab break ins.
Every time I see one of these that's the first thing I wonder: Why were the guns not in vaults or other secure areas?
Yes, I know it takes time and costs money (maybe you have to pay your employees an extra hour of wages to get them to come in early or leave late) But you know what? I'll bet it doesn't take as much time or cost as much money as they lose when they get one of these smash-and-grab break ins.
So an extra 2 hours (open and close) for at least one employee to take them out and put them back away every business day (about 260 days). If you're paying roughly $12/hour to that employee, that would cost about $8,000 per year (I rounded up to $30/day expense because of payroll taxes and stuff makes that 12/hour actually more). So an extra $8,000 per year paid out, which means really you need to gross about 12,000 each year extra to pay for that. Not to mention, the cost of all the extra safes they'll have to buy, install, etc.
Or they just maintain their insurance premiums, pay their $1,000 deductible and move on *if* it happens to their shop. Again, insurance companies will dictate what the shops are willing to do. Gun shops have to watch the bottom line like any other business and why add cost if insurance will make you whole again?
I don't know all the exact numbers in the real formula but I'd assume what I presented is why more isn't done at some of these shops.
Martinjmpr
06-28-2017, 09:29
So an extra 2 hours (open and close) for at least one employee to take them out and put them back away every business day (about 260 days). If you're paying roughly $12/hour to that employee, that would cost about $8,000 per year (I rounded up to $30/day expense because of payroll taxes and stuff makes that 12/hour actually more). So an extra $8,000 per year paid out, which means really you need to gross about 12,000 each year extra to pay for that. Not to mention, the cost of all the extra safes they'll have to buy, install, etc.
Or they just maintain their insurance premiums, pay their $1,000 deductible and move on *if* it happens to their shop. Again, insurance companies will dictate what the shops are willing to do. Gun shops have to watch the bottom line like any other business and why add cost if insurance will make you whole again?
I don't know all the exact numbers in the real formula but I'd assume what I presented is why more isn't done at some of these shops.
Well, first of all, this is assuming that there is a need for these shops to have their guns on display the way they do. Look at jewelry stores, many of them put their high-dollar items in the vault at night and yet, they somehow remain in business. Seems to me that there are ways of displaying firearms that would allow for them to be more easily secured (just an example: You have 10 Glock 17's: Do they ALL need to be on display? Why not just display ONE and if that one gets sold, take another one out of the vault.)
I shop at the Buckley AFB BX sometimes and they have a gun section there - and at 6:00 every night, the gun section is locked up and every firearm - every single one - gets taken out and put into a vault. And this is INSIDE the base exchange, which is inside a shopping center which is inside a secure Air Force Base.
Second, we're not just talking about monetary costs here, guns getting into the criminal market is something people have a right to be concerned about. As .455 hunter said above, the gun shops can either take measures to reduce the chances of such thefts or they can wait until the ATF makes that decision for them.
EDITED TO ADD: Or they can just wait for someone to get killed by a stolen gun and for the victim's family to sue them for a few million dollars for negligence. After all, with "smash and grab" gun thefts occurring a couple times a week, they can't legitimately say they 'didn't know' about the potential for such thefts and the fact that they didn't take measures to mitigate the risks looks very bad for them in civil court.
hurley842002
06-28-2017, 09:37
Why pay anybody for an extra hour at the beginning or end? You simply stagger a couple of employees schedules, so they come in an hour early, and leave an hour after closing time, that way they are only paying for a straight 8, and guns are being secured properly.
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So if someone breaks into your house, steals the gun and commits a murder, you're ok with the homeowner being held responsible? Maybe we should have some storage requirements for everyone before you're allowed to buy a gun. You know...for public safety.
I 100% understand the concern. I just don't know what the "reasonable" solution is?
With guns, You have to hold the gun, see how it feels in your hand, fondle it, etc. It helps sell guns. I thought about a similar system where only minimal stock is kept out front and extras in back but most gun shops dont really carry a ton of inventory of one gun, do they? They always seem to have various styles and configurations and maybe have 1-2 of each exact model in stock, max.
Id assume most of these shops already lock up the real high dollar stuff and most of whats left out is your standard equipment but I havent seen a list of whats been stolen. My guess would be glocks, standard AR's, etc.
This is just a mess. Let's try not to burden down good people because bad people are committing crimes.
So if someone breaks into your house, steals the gun and commits a murder, you're ok with the homeowner being held responsible? Maybe we should have some storage requirements for everyone before you're allowed to buy a gun. You know...for public safety.
I 100% understand the concern. I just don't know what the "reasonable" solution is?
With guns, You have to hold the gun, see how it feels in your hand, fondle it, etc. It helps sell guns. I thought about a similar system where only minimal stock is kept out front and extras in back but most gun shops dont really carry a ton of inventory of one gun, do they? They always seem to have various styles and configurations and maybe have 1-2 of each exact model in stock, max.
Id assume most of these shops already lock up the real high dollar stuff and most of whats left out is your standard equipment but I havent seen a list of whats been stolen. My guess would be glocks, standard AR's, etc.
This is just a mess. Let's try not to burden down good people because bad people are committing crimes.
My thoughts exactly, especially regarding your last point. Also, I spent roughly 5 years working in gun shops in the Denver area, with procedures at two of them calling for firearms to be moved at close. It sounds like a great idea aside from the leg work, until "Carl", the new guy, dings the shit out of all your merchandise and people expect a discount on blemmed firearms.
The other issue to me is that it's all about making yourself or your shop a less attractive target. If every shop in Colorado winds up securing their guns in safes at the end of the day, then what's to stop theieves from stealing tow trucks or random boom trucks to ram stores and then drag out the safes?
Martinjmpr
06-28-2017, 10:33
what's to stop theieves from stealing tow trucks or random boom trucks to ram stores and then drag out the safes?
Well, the fact that doing what you described is orders of magnitude more difficult, time consuming and likely to result in the thieves getting caught maybe?
And that's my point - it's all about making yourself a "hard target." Thieves look for low hanging fruit to pick. It's a lot easier to smash-and-grab from a strip mall gun store when the guns are just sitting in the display cases waiting to be taken, than it is to put together an "Ocean's Eleven" crew to pull off a sophisticated heist at a National Guard Armory.
Hopefully local gun shops are taking these measures into consideration and re-evaluating their security practices.
I don't like heavy-handed regulations any more than any of you do, but simply shrugging our shoulders and saying "ain't it awful?" is not really a viable option. There are measures that can be taken to make this kind of theft less attractive to the thieves and I would hope that the smart business owners are doing just that.
Well, the fact that doing what you described is orders of magnitude more difficult, time consuming and likely to result in the thieves getting caught maybe?
And that's my point - it's all about making yourself a "hard target." Thieves look for low hanging fruit to pick. It's a lot easier to smash-and-grab from a strip mall gun store when the guns are just sitting in the display cases waiting to be taken, than it is to put together an "Ocean's Eleven" crew to pull off a sophisticated heist at a National Guard Armory.
Hopefully local gun shops are taking these measures into consideration and re-evaluating their security practices.
I don't like heavy-handed regulations any more than any of you do, but simply shrugging our shoulders and saying "ain't it awful?" is not really a viable option. There are measures that can be taken to make this kind of theft less attractive to the thieves and I would hope that the smart business owners are doing just that.
My point about the boom trucks is that once the median height of the low hanging fruit increases, the thieves tactics will change. Just because it's more difficult doesn't mean they'll stop trying as they're already putting in some work on these hits. When I was a kid, my dad was a partner at a couple of shops in Texas. It was well known that the primary owner at one of those shops had his residence in the back, so when a handful of Mexican nationals drove a Toyota through the front of the store, they exited the vehicle armed and immediately began firing. They thought they knew what they were in for but the reward was still great enough for them. I think Jim was the owners name, he sent 3 of those guys to the morgue and one to ICU.
ChunkyMonkey
06-28-2017, 14:30
While you guys arguing back and forth, please keep in mind that the last few attempts failed. Gun stores have more to lose than anyone else at this point. ATF and insurance do put a lot of pressure on us.
Guns need to be locked up every night, I agree and ours are. CGC DOES lock their firearms cabinet and display (They are locked nightly and extremely hard to get in). Their gun cabinets and showroom are designed by http://www.dstopeka.com/ They still got hit, because criminals are stupid by nature. Remember Dave's gun? Almost 20 year ago, they drove a suburban through the concrete wall to get behind the vault.
Furthermore, they are 2000s FFL in Colorado alone. You will not see lost/stolen guns from homebased FFL on the news. They do happen.
Finally, per BJS, 600k firearms are stolen annually, mostly from private homes. Why this is important? For those who wants some kind of mandate for gun storage/ security, its a slippery slope. It will not stop at gun stores - it will affect individual owners (see German's law or EU firearm storage directive as an example). Enforcement will means gun owners losing the 4th amendment.
Trust me, most gun store owners are talking to each other to address this issue. Some are more aware than the rest - thats just human nature. But changes are coming to most stores, thats for sure.
While you guys arguing back and forth, please keep in mind that the last few attempts failed. Gun stores have more to lose than anyone else at this point. ATF and insurance do put a lot of pressure on us.
Guns need to be locked up every night, I agree and ours are. CGC DOES lock their firearms cabinet and display (They are locked nightly and extremely hard to get in). Their gun cabinets and showroom are designed by http://www.dstopeka.com/ They still got hit, because criminals are stupid by nature. Remember Dave's gun? Almost 20 year ago, they drove a suburban through the concrete wall to get behind the vault.
Furthermore, they are 2000s FFL in Colorado alone. You will not see lost/stolen guns from homebased FFL on the news. They do happen.
Finally, per BJS, 600k firearms are stolen annually, mostly from private homes. Why this is important? For those who wants some kind of mandate for gun storage/ security, its a slippery slope. It will not stop at gun stores - it will affect individual owners (see German's law or EU firearm storage directive as an example). Enforcement will means gun owners losing the 4th amendment.
Trust me, most gun store owners are talking to each other to address this issue. Some are more aware than the rest - thats just human nature. But changes are coming to most stores, thats for sure.
And there you have it. Thanks for the input.
DireWolf
06-28-2017, 15:25
Just out of curiosity, anyone know what the law says on active (automated or remote-controlled) non-lethal defensive/anti-theft systems?
Thinking there may be a market to develop such technologies, and it's likely that most of the building blocks for such systems are already available...
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Just out of curiosity, anyone know what the law says on active (automated or remote-controlled) non-lethal defensive/anti-theft systems?
Thinking there may be a market to develop such technologies, and it's likely that most of the building blocks for such systems are already available...
Sent from my SM-N920T using Tapatalk
https://www.burglarbomb.com/products/
While you guys arguing back and forth, please keep in mind that the last few attempts failed. Gun stores have more to lose than anyone else at this point. ATF and insurance do put a lot of pressure on us.
Guns need to be locked up every night, I agree and ours are. CGC DOES lock their firearms cabinet and display (They are locked nightly and extremely hard to get in). Their gun cabinets and showroom are designed by http://www.dstopeka.com/ They still got hit, because criminals are stupid by nature. Remember Dave's gun? Almost 20 year ago, they drove a suburban through the concrete wall to get behind the vault.
Furthermore, they are 2000s FFL in Colorado alone. You will not see lost/stolen guns from homebased FFL on the news. They do happen.
Finally, per BJS, 600k firearms are stolen annually, mostly from private homes. Why this is important? For those who wants some kind of mandate for gun storage/ security, its a slippery slope. It will not stop at gun stores - it will affect individual owners (see German's law or EU firearm storage directive as an example). Enforcement will means gun owners losing the 4th amendment.
Trust me, most gun store owners are talking to each other to address this issue. Some are more aware than the rest - thats just human nature. But changes are coming to most stores, thats for sure.
Just trying to add to the dialectic, you make some great points here though.
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