Trespassing/Assault question

[CS1983]

Had a "fascinating" experience this morning at Mass.

Long story short, I was the last one in the Communion line and in front of me was an individual who was:

1) wearing a hoodie with the hood up
2) fingerless gloves
3) pants pulled up to the knees with socks to the knees, displaying marijuana leaves on the socks

Obviously, the attire itself was out of place for 7AM Mass at the Cathedral. Walking behind him, I noticed he had his arms out to the side and down, similar to the below picture, but more to the side, as I could see his hands clenched in fists from behind:

http://l7.alamy.com/zooms/77ab789e32b8454a87f57e4296ab3fdb/shirtless-muscular-man-shouting-while-flexing-muscles-e65b1k.jpg

We get up to the priest and he stuck his hand out. Fr. asked him to remove his hood, and he refused. Fr. asked again, he refused again. Fr. asked him if he is a Catholic, and he got belligerent. At this point Fr. tells him he cannot give him Holy Communion. Guy starts yelling about F this, F you, child molesters this and that, flipping the bird to everyone -- in general, a lovely fellow who di'n't do nuffin'. Probably has a lovely 6th grade yearbook photo too. Fr. tells him he needs to leave, continued civility erupts from him. He turned around and started walking back down the center aisle. I receive Holy Communion and keep my eye on him as I'm going back side aisle. He stays standing in the middle of the center aisle, so I walked up behind him with standoff distance and inform him sternly he needs to leave.

He stays put. I turn to find other men (why aren't they already up!?), begin pointing to guys who look big/young enough to handle themselves (no AARP) and giving them the "get up and over here now" gestures. I get 4 volunteers. We form a circle around the guy and he starts backing up to the holy water font. Continued civility and flowery language on his part. We close in, not touching him, but simply herding him where we want him. He backs up all the way in the back to where he has his backpack and cell phone charging in an outlet. 2 guys split off and it's just me and an older Mexican dude and some older white guy, all 3 of us blocking him from making his way back up front.

Guy continues ranting, cursing loudly, etc.

So question:

A competent authority for the private property (the Priest), has told him multiple times to leave.

Aside from waiting on the police to show up (which CSPD did, rather quickly all things considered -- maybe 10 min from start of incident), what legal options are there?

If such a thing occurs again, is it legal to simply grab a person up and haul them out since they are at this point trespassing?

I wasn't sure of the answer to this, and as such, since he had not yet actually threatened anyone, had not displayed a weapon, and we had myself and the 2/4 others, I opted to simply prepare myself for a fight rather than get into one.

When the CSPD did show up, he was immediately cuffed while his person and belongings were searched. Guy started saying, loudly, "these motherf..." and immediately the police officer grabbed the dude by the throat and held him up to the wall where he was informed he would be quiet immediately or face physical consequences.

[hollohas]

Wow...

Couple thoughts.

- Does your church have a security team? If they do, where were they? If they don't, maybe it's time you start one.

- I don't know the legalities behind it, but I think a sanctioned security individual can physically remove someone from the property. Think bouncer or similar.

- Maybe don't answer this, but do you carry at church? Have you spoken to the Priest about what he feels about concealed carry by church members.

Church security is a serious topic and one that all churches should consider. There are resources available that can help get a church security team started. If the Priest isn't familiar with any, I'd be happy to pass along some links. The insurance company that my church uses actually offers consultants to help in that area. (Don't need to be big either, we have a congregation of about 100).

Glad the police showed up quickly today.

[cstone]

Unless the property owner (or person in control of the property) requests assistance, you should not make contact with the person. Following at a distance and maintaining visual observation is fine but waiting until the police show up is the best course of action, IMO.

No one was hurt and the police took care of the situation. My guess is the church will not press charges and the most the police will be able to file on him would be Disturbing the Peace unless he had some contraband in his possession. Depending on his past criminal history the Dist. Peace charge is a throw away and he will be back. If that happens someone should be considering a Restraining Order.

Be safe.

Oh, and post a link to the YouTube video of the incident when someone in the congregation uploads it.

[davsel]

I have no legal info, but I'd suggest you take him down, choke him out if necessary, and carry him away.

I guess not all churches kept up security after New Life shooting was forgotten.

Unattended backpack and cell phone charging in the back? Seriously?

Glad no one was hurt.

[Zundfolge]

- Maybe don't answer this, but do you carry at church?
If you don't, you should.

Have you spoken to the Priest about what he feels about concealed carry by church members.
DADT (seriously, no good can come from it)

As for what to do with someone like this, DO NOT touch them unless they've actually committed a crime (this could be construed as simple assault). Do not draw down on him or tell him you are armed (this could be construed as menacing).

Seems like you guys handled it pretty well.

[hollohas]

DADT (seriously, no good can come from it)

I only partially disagree. DADT is a very good strategy in most cases.

However, if you can't trust your church leaders with that info, then that should raise some questions about who your leaders are. If you're worried that they might ask you not to CCW, then that creates some questions regarding how seriously they take safety of their congregation. If a pastor or priest does't have, or doesn't think a security team is necessary AND is also against CCW, then it's time to find a different church IMO.

I discussed the topic of CCW with my Pastor. Turned out he was of similar mindset...

[OtterbatHellcat]

Wow indeed.

[Wulf202]

Perfect opportunity to chat with the church higher ups and have a plan for next time.

[Great-Kazoo]

I have no legal info, but I'd suggest you take him down, choke him out if necessary, and carry him away.

I guess not all churches kept up security after New Life shooting was forgotten.

Unattended backpack and cell phone charging in the back? Seriously?

Glad no one was hurt.

Until he becomes a physical threat. You cannot touch him, excpet to escort off the property.

You get more physical than that and you ar elooking at assault charges. Potential for it to go real sideways. With that many witness, had he felt threatened and escalated the situation (AFTER he was grabbed) what would those witness say?
Based on the OP's wondering why no one else was stepping up. I doubt they would be favorable witness for the OP.

[.455_Hunter]

Sounds familiar.

A few years ago, my family and my parents were attending Christmas Eve service at our fairly large congregation local Boulder church. Just as the full offering collection plates were being consolidated in front of the pastor, music still playing, a similarly attired​ "urban gentleman" came in one of the back sanctuary doors and made a beeline up the asile. Just as I was about to stand-up, he must have gotten cold feet, because he did a 180 and headed back out in just seconds. Nothing was said, and many people might not have even seen what was going on. However, I have noticed​ that since then, any large church event usually has a couple of LEO present. I am just starting to get to know our newish pastor, so maybe the security topic can come-up in conversation sometime soon.

[GilpinGuy]

I've been in the casino biz for 15 years and I have found that whipping out a cell phone and saying "I'm calling the police" makes douchebags go away 99% of the time.

I'm not suggesting anything was done wrong in the OP, but man, the act of taking out a cell phone and saying "I'm calling the cops" makes d-bags run.

[CS1983]

Thank you for the replies so far.

Sounds like my assumption of physical contact without threat of violence/display of intent on person's part was correct. I've only previously dug into the legality of force escalation in the context of CCW usage.

To answer/clarify a few things:

1) I am unaware of any building/event security per se. If there is any, it would be at a bigger Mass, as the 730 (I mistakenly said 7 in OP) is the early Mass and is largely attended by the elderly.

2) I do not ask for permission to carry anywhere I am legally allowed to do so. At any rate, such a policy would be set by the Diocese/Bishop, not individual pastors. I know of another parish in the Diocese where the ushers also act as security, and I've seen the lead usher there printing, so I implicitly believe such a policy against carrying is not in effect. I have no reason to believe I am unallowed to carry at Mass.

3) One of the men who came up did pull out a cell phone and informed the individual he was calling the cops. Said individual counter-informed that he didn't care, and upon being herded to the back, promptly called 911 himself and was ranting about everything from being denied access to Holy Communion to various oddly peppered Biblical phrases. He was either possessed, on drugs, mentally ill, some combo of the three, or had the full package.

[spqrzilla]

Unless imminent physical harm to yourself or one of your fellow worshippers, you really want to let the police handle it as you did. As Tam Keel says, they are all dripping with qualified immunity.

[hurley842002]

He was either possessed, on drugs, mentally ill, some combo of the three, or had the full package.

The spike in these types of folk in Colorado, as of late, is truly staggering. The only upside to winter for me, will be the possibility of this trash either freezing, or moving on to a warmer locale.

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[Eric P]

The spike in these types of folk in Colorado, as of late, is truly staggering. The only upside to winter for me, will be the possibility of this trash either freezing, or moving on to a warmer locale.

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January 1, 2018, California has legal recreational weed I believe. One can only hope they head and stay on the left coast, and those considering CO go to CA instead. I don't care if the weed industry flounders because of it.

[Ah Pook]

I've been in the casino biz for 15 years and I have found that whipping out a cell phone and saying "I'm calling the police" makes douchebags go away 99% of the time.

I'm not suggesting anything was done wrong in the OP, but man, the act of taking out a cell phone and saying "I'm calling the cops" makes d-bags run.

Dealing with a potentially violent paranoid schizophrenic. We have had several encounters. He has verbally threatened my partners and employees. I was present at the last encounter. After threatening all three of us, he was asked to leave. His response was he was going to call the cops. I looked at him and said "no, let me do it for you". Before I could get the phone out of my pocket, he was gone.

Nothing to add to the OP's problem other than doing the right thing (dragging his a$$ out of the building) will get you in trouble unless there is eminent threat of harm.

[brutal]

I'm curious about something.

If you stand your ground, you're obviously in the right. If you "walk him out" by intruding into personal space and "herding" him out without actually making contact, as the OP described was done by himself and several others, is that considered aggression on your part?

Too bad a House of Worship isn't considered a "house" and afforded the same ground rules.

[MarkCO]

All situations are different and just based on your description, I can't say I would not have done similar. I have helped Churches set up security teams, and was on one for several years. Leader of the team was a JeffCO deputy. Many members were LE, some were CCW and trained well, others were CCW and not well trained and some did not have anything.

Churches/Religious groups are targets of hate, but also places sought out by people hurting, broken and searching. We wanted to be aware that while we had a mandate for physical security, we were also a group of people who others might turn to in time of need. That involved all sorts of issues. We had an estranged father try to take a child from the nursery, an estranged wife go berserk on a cheating husband, people trying to break cycles of various addictions. IMHO, Church security is more complicated than in most other situations/organizations one might find themselves in. We had the full support and encouragement of our pastor, panic alarm fobs, radios, medical team, AEDs, Trauma kits, training on gas/fire/water valve locations and checks. It was comprehensive, but most churches are not.

I'd just encourage you to talk to the leadership and at least make a few plans, if not put together a team of some sort. Make sure to include local LE if you do any sort of team.

[BPTactical]

"Yo Cuz, ya gots to go" should have been the appropriate phrase to get him to leave....

[hollohas]

I'd just encourage you to talk to the leadership and at least make a few plans, if not put together a team of some sort. Make sure to include local LE if you do any sort of team.

Mark, your post was spot on. Church security is indeed complicated.

Regarding the quote above, some LE agencies are actually proactive in supporting churches in this regard. For example, Jefferson County is hosting its annual Safety in Faith Summit in Aug. "To help prepare places of worship in protecting congregants." In addition to the Summit, they also hold quarterly training sessions.

All are free.

[cstone]

Just out of curiosity, did you speak to the priest afterwards? I know that each denomination provides different direction as to who is permitted to receive communion. Some churches have very open communion and others are much more protective on who can receive communion. I know that even within the RC church there can be some variation depending on the priest administering the sacrament.

From your description and follow up, am I wrong in my impression that the individual first became verbal when he was asked to remove his hood? Or did he become verbal after being refused communion?

I know that the priest is well within his rights to refuse communion to anyone he believes is not a Catholic. I also would not question the priest on his request that proper respect be shown during the distribution of the sacrament by removing the hood. Is there any chance that the priest knows the individual? People often show up at church at times other than during a service. Clergy and staff often know those who frequent the church and would have additional reasons for reacting the way they do when they are dealing with people they know. These types of things are often unknown by others within the congregation and the additional information may be extremely relevant on how the person should be dealt with by the church.

If nothing else, I hope there is some dialogue within the staff and congregational leadership on what happened and what are the best responses for the future.

Be safe.

[ChunkyMonkey]

If such a thing occurs again, is it legal to simply grab a person up and haul them out since they are at this point trespassing?


Per couple local LE, it is the same rules apply when you must kick someone out as bar bouncers, McDonald's staffs, gun store employees and so on.


Generally speaking, bouncers can only use force if it is first used against them. These are the same rights as any ordinary citizen (i.e. the right to self-defense). On the other hand, bouncers are legally allowed to perform such tasks as:

Issue verbal warnings
Ask you to leave
Check for ID
Refuse entry if the patron is too intoxicated, fails to comply with establishment policies, or engages in aggressive behavior
Call the police
Protect innocent bystanders from violence
Break up fights that are not involved in
Respond with equal force if necessary

[asmo]

If such a thing occurs again, is it legal to simply grab a person up and haul them out since they are at this point trespassing?

Short answer: NO. Not only NO but H. E. Double Hockey Sticks NO.

Before you touch him you need to be able to clearly and concisely be able to explain why you felt that the person was an imminent threat to the health/safety of yourself/others/himself. Otherwise you will have committed battery; and that is generally a no-no.

You did the right thing. Nothing wrong with you and your friends politely talking to him while you waited for the constable. ;)

[GilpinGuy]

Before you touch him you need to be able to clearly and concisely be able to explain why you felt that the person was an imminent threat to the health/safety of yourself/others/himself. Otherwise you will have committed battery; and that is generally a no-no.

So would a drunk d-bag stating "I'll kick your ass" be a considered an imminent threat? I assume so. I have this said to me at least weekly, sometimes more. Hasn't happened yet.

[copfish]

You have a great resource for church security up in COS. PM me and I'll get you the contact info. Our Parrish has several teams and most of us are active or retired LE and we have a plan that we have reviewed with both the Priest and Deacon. Ushers watch and point out potential problem children to the team. We'll herd them out if they cause problems. Most of our response is medical.

[asmo]

So would a drunk d-bag stating "I'll kick your ass" be a considered an imminent threat? I assume so. I have this said to me at least weekly, sometimes more. Hasn't happened yet.

WARNING: I AM NOT A LAWYER - MORE IMPORTANTLY I AM NOT YOUR LAWYER.

The key elements of Self Defense claim hinge on the following:

Was the attack Unprovoked - e.g. the defender cannot be the initial aggressor (typically)
Were the actions taken to defend ones self a Necessity - e.g. you can only use force necessary to repel an imminent attack (one that is going to happen right now)
Was the response to the attack Proportional to the initial attack - defender can only use the amount of force necessary to repel the unlawful force
Was there Reasonable Belief that it is necessary to use force to repel the attack. - that belief must be objectionably reasonable, see below.



That said, to use physical force (even up to 'deadly' physical force) you must be able to articulate 3 factors about the attacker/potential attacker before you can/should use force :

Does the attacker have the Ability imminently kill or cause serious injury.
Does the attackers action place you in imminent Jeopardy. - Meaning the suspect words or actions would convey to any reasonable person who was in the same situation, and knew what you knew would know, that the suspect obvious intent was to kill or seriously injure someone he had no right to do so by law. 
Does the attacker have the Opportunity to immediately carry out the power to kill or cause serious injury, or carry out a clear threat to kill or seriously injure you in a very short/close time frame.


If the answer to any one of those is NO, then the answer is NO.

[CS1983]

cstone,

Per your questions:

1) Afterwards, I gave my statement and contact info to the responding officer and left. The priest briefly thanked myself and the other person who stuck around to give a statement, but needed to get going to show the officer the security cam footage.

As for the "openness" of communion, the groups who practice open "communion" do not believe the doctrine of the Catholic Church (and the Eastern Orthodox for that matter), and from the Catholic and Orthodox perspective, have what is simply bread/wine (or grape juice). The Catholic and Orthodox position is that the Host, once consecrated by a valid priest, is literally the substance of Christ, though retains the accidents of bread (this gets into metaphysics), etc. Hence, neither practice "open" communion as such, as it would be against St. Paul's admonitions in 1 Corinthians 11:23-29.

Catholic Priests are further bound by Canon Law, so any Catholic priest in violation of Canon Law who practices a more liberal approach is simply wrong. But that's a different topic. The manner in which the priest handled it is the standard, not an exception.

2) He became irate on the 2nd time of being asked to remove his hood. When Fr. asked him if he is a Catholic, he went off. While I didn't see his face at the point from going up to the beginning of the incident, being behind him, I'd imagine he was not smiling given the body posture (combative).

3) Fr. did not indicate knowing the individual. The Cathedral is across the street from Marian House, a Catholic charity effort catering to homeless, so a lot of transients are in the area.

I do hope to be able to talk with the priest more about the issue. I will tell him I have reached out to law enforcement on the issue if he would like to confer with the pastor re: enhancing the security posture of the Cathedral. If he agrees that at least a volunteer element of competent men would be a good idea, I'll reach out to those who have responded offering to help with setup/training/etc.

[cstone]

Thank you for your response.

I often find myself praying for peace but have to remind myself that what I need is God's will and not my will be done.

Be safe.

[osok-308]

I have no legal info, but I'd suggest you take him down, choke him out if necessary, and carry him away.

I guess not all churches kept up security after New Life shooting was forgotten.

Unattended backpack and cell phone charging in the back? Seriously?

Glad no one was hurt.Do not, I repeat, do not "choke him out". Newly passed CO law puts this in the same realm as strangulation, a felony offense, the same crime that it would be for shooting someone unprovoked. Unless you are in a situation where shooting them would be acceptable, do not use a choke hold.

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[CS1983]

Do not, I repeat, do not "choke him out". Newly passed CO law puts this in the same realm as strangulation, a felony offense, the same crime that it would be for shooting someone unprovoked. Unless you are in a situation where shooting them would be acceptable, do not use a choke hold.

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I hope the fine young men of Ft. Carson are being told this when going through combatives training.

[osok-308]

I hope the fine young men of Ft. Carson are being told this when going through combatives training.I don't know if Ft Carson teaches this or not. What I do know is that this is what the training in CO for LE is now.

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[osok-308]

https://leg.colorado.gov/bills/hb16-1080

This link may be able to help you out with that. I'm sorry about thread-jacking. I'm done with the choke hold thing, I'm not a lawyer, but I'd hate for anyone here to get in trouble while meaning to help out at church.

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[Great-Kazoo]

I hope the fine young men of Ft. Carson are being told this when going through combatives training.

You're confusing .mil training with john or jane doe local citizen.

[CS1983]

You're confusing .mil training with john or jane doe local citizen.

No. I just know when Joe gets into a fight, and he sees an opportunity to rear naked choke someone, he might take it if he doesn't know he's about to get a felony.