Charging more than $10 for a private transfer = illegal?

[Wiggity]

Here is the text from the 2013 transfer law.

(2) (a) A PROSPECTIVE FIREARM TRANSFEROR WHO IS NOT ALICENSED GUN DEALER SHALL ARRANGE FOR A LICENSED GUN DEALER TOOBTAIN THE BACKGROUND CHECK REQUIRED BY THIS SECTION.(b) A LICENSED GUN DEALER WHO OBTAINS A BACKGROUND CHECKON A PROSPECTIVE TRANSFEREE SHALL RECORD THE TRANSFER, AS PROVIDEDIN SECTION 12-26-102, C.R.S., AND RETAIN THE RECORDS, AS PROVIDED INSECTION 12-26-103,C.R.S., IN THE SAME MANNER AS WHEN CONDUCTING ASALE, RENTAL, OR EXCHANGE AT RETAIL.THE LICENSED GUN DEALER SHALLCOMPLY WITH ALL STATE AND FEDERAL LAWS, INCLUDING 18 U.S.C. SEC.922, AS IF HE OR SHE WERE TRANSFERRING THE FIREARM FROM HIS OR HERINVENTORY TO THE PROSPECTIVE TRANSFEREE.(c) A LICENSED GUN DEALER WHO OBTAINS A BACKGROUND CHECKFOR A PROSPECTIVE FIREARM TRANSFEROR PURSUANT TO THIS SECTIONSHALL PROVIDE THE FIREARM TRANSFEROR AND TRANSFEREE A COPY OF THERESULTS OF THE BACKGROUND CHECK, INCLUDING THE BUREAU'S APPROVALOR DISAPPROVAL OF THE TRANSFER.(d) A LICENSED GUN DEALER MAY CHARGE A FEE FOR SERVICES RENDERED PURSUANT TO THIS SECTION, WHICH FEE SHALL NOT EXCEED TEN DOLLARS.



Here is the entire bill: http://www.leg.state.co.us/clics/clics2013a/csl.nsf/fsbillcont3/590C29B4C02AFC2F87257A8E0073C303?Open&file=1229_enr.pdf


I'm surprised FFL's have been getting away with charging $50+ for transfers. Sounds to me like every single FFL who charges anything over $10 is breaking the law.


Thoughts?

[86k10]

That's the state's fee. The rest is the FFLs.

[Colorado Osprey]

They can charging up to $10 for the background check. There is no provision for how much someone can charge for the transfer.
So if you are selling a gun to your buddy and go in for buddy to get a background check so that you can sell it to him, the dealer can charge your buddy up to $10.

I believe what you are complaining about is ordering a gun a having it delivered to a FFL dealer. Now they can charge you $10 for the back ground check and what ever they feel like for the transfer from their FFL to you. Remember this is a service they may or may not offer. What they decide to charge you for this transfer from their FFL is up to them.

Am I off base or are dealers charging more than $10 for a back ground check on a private transfer where the dealer never takes possession of the firearm?
Will an FFL do a back ground without possession?

[mattiooo]

Am I off base or are dealers charging more than $10 for a back ground check on a private transfer where the dealer never takes possession of the firearm?
Will an FFL do a back ground without possession?

They are.

[mattiooo]

Mind you, I'm not complaining. Their staff is providing the service. That costs the business money. They also assume the risk.

[Wiggity]

They can charging up to $10 for the background check. There is no provision for how much someone can charge for the transfer.
So if you are selling a gun to your buddy and go in for buddy to get a background check so that you can sell it to him, the dealer can charge your buddy up to $10.

I believe what you are complaining about is ordering a gun a having it delivered to a FFL dealer. Now they can charge you $10 for the back ground check and what ever they feel like for the transfer from their FFL to you. Remember this is a service they may or may not offer. What they decide to charge you for this transfer from their FFL is up to them.

Am I off base or are dealers charging more than $10 for a back ground check on a private transfer where the dealer never takes possession of the firearm?


I'm talking about the bolded. Almost all FFL's charge $20+ for this. Sure looks to me like this is illegal.


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[Great-Kazoo]

I'm talking about the bolded. Almost all FFL's charge $20+ for this. Sure looks to me like this is illegal.


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So if you are selling a gun to your buddy and go in for buddy to get a background check so that you can sell it to him, the dealer can charge your buddy up to $10.


They are actually charging $6 for the CBI BGC and what ever they want for the transfer. You should verify TRANSFER FEES before having the BGC and TRANSFER done.

[mattiooo]

I'm talking about the bolded. Almost all FFL's charge $20+ for this. Sure looks to me like this is illegal.

At Liberty Firearms, They charge $6 for the background check and $20 for doing the transfer.
Similar at Ark, but the total is $25.

The bold is what they can charge for doing the background check. Not for managing the entire transfer.

[Wiggity]

Well a background check is the only thing you need for the transfer. And the law says they have to provide you with a copy of the results. So charging a bgc fee plus a transfer fee doesn't make any sense.


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[Great-Kazoo]

Well a background check is the only thing you need for the transfer. And the law says they have to provide you with a copy of the results. So charging a bgc fee plus a transfer fee doesn't make any sense.


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Bullshit.
You want a business to take time out from their sales to assist you with a non store purchase, for free. [ROFL2] Makes sense to me.

You believe those 4473's fill them self out, then robo call to CBI. Every step requires a person to handle it. It's not your FFL or business on the line if there's a mistake on the paperwork, is it?

[Wiggity]

Mind you, I'm not complaining. Their staff is providing the service. That costs the business money. They also assume the risk.

What risk? There is absolutely no risk whatsoever when conducting a bgc.


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[Wiggity]

Bullshit.
You want a business to take time out from their sales to assist you with a non store purchase, for free. [ROFL2] Makes sense to me.

You believe those 4473's fill them self out, then robo call to CBI. Every step requires a person to handle it. It's not your FFL or business on the line if there's a mistake on the paperwork, is it?

Calm down sweetheart. Not bullshit. Just pointing out what the law says. Your opinion doesn't make any sense according to the law. No need to get all cranky lol.

It looks like they can charge a max of $10. The bgc costs them $6. So they are making money. It takes about 3 mins of actual work to complete their part.


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[Mazin]

You don't get a copy of the results, if you fail then you get a reference number and you have to call CBI to find out why you failed.

Like others have stated you pay $6 for the BGC and then the store charges for the separate service of transferring the firearm. 2 services 2 fees. They need to amend that to $6 max because that's the cost of the BGC not $10 anymore.

[Great-Kazoo]

Calm down sweetheart. Not bullshit. Just pointing out what the law says. Your opinion doesn't make any sense according to the law. No need to get all cranky lol.

It looks like they can charge a max of $10. The bgc costs them $6. So they are making money. It takes about 3 mins of actual work to complete their part.


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And your ignorance how and why things are done is glaring

[mattiooo]

What risk? There is absolutely no risk whatsoever when conducting a bgc.

You don't think there is risk for the shop that processes the background check?

[Mazin]

Oh and the BGC isn't the only thing you need because you can pull a BGC off CBI's website directly (or use too). but you need the FFL to do the xfer. That's why the ffl puts it into thier A&D and then signs it out to whoever the buyer is. I think the ATF views the FFL as the "overseer" of the transaction that way hopefully it's "Lawful". But that's IMHO

[Wiggity]

You don't get a copy of the results, if you fail then you get a reference number and you have to call CBI to find out why you failed.

Like others have stated you pay $6 for the BGC and then the store charges for the separate service of transferring the firearm. 2 services 2 fees. They need to amend that to $6 max because that's the cost of the BGC not $10 anymore.

That isn't what the law says though. What does a "transfer" entail besides a bgc?


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[Wiggity]

And your ignorance how and why things are done is glaring

No need to personally insult me. Please read the entire law again.


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[Wiggity]

You don't think there is risk for the shop that processes the background check?

No. If there is, please enlighten me.


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[Wiggity]

Oh and the BGC isn't the only thing you need because you can pull a BGC off CBI's website directly (or use too). but you need the FFL to do the xfer. That's why the ffl puts it into thier A&D and then signs it out to whoever the buyer is. I think the ATF views the FFL as the "overseer" of the transaction that way hopefully it's "Lawful". But that's IMHO

That really isn't what the law says. I think that is your average FFL's interpretation.


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[Mazin]

No I'm simply stating what CBI has told me on more than one occasion. If you would like to argue with them by all means you have my blessing and wish of good luck. Until we have legislation clearing up all the grey areas this is the world in which we live so deal with it.

[Wiggity]

No I'm simply stating what CBI has told me on more than one occasion. If you would like to argue with them by all means you have my blessing and wish of good luck. Until we have legislation clearing up all the grey areas this is the world in which we live so deal with it.

Well that is fair enough. And if true, I'm not sure CBI has it right either.


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[Mazin]

Lol when does any gov agency ever have anything right [Beer]

[kidicarus13]

You don't have to be right if your the .gov

[Mazin]

You don't have to be right if your the .gov

He didn't mean it big brother!!!!!

Kid the Broom is against the door, John has a long mustache [Coffee]

[hollohas]

And when is it ok for the gov to tell a business what they can charge for a service? It's not ever ok.

While I agree with everyone here that the fee written into the law is just the BGC fee and the store can charge what ever they want for a transfer, let's say the OP is right and $10 total bgc+transfer is the law, I'm still ok paying more.

I hate the law and would much rather do it for free in a parking lot like we used too. But if the gov is going to mandate stores provide a particular service, as a freedom loving American who supports the small businesses that support my hobby, I believe they should charge whatever reasonable fee they want. If they charge too much, the free market will work that out. I buy firearms the same place I transfer them. I prefer to support the stores who take care of me even if it means they charge a few dollars over the $10 in the BS law.

[Bailey Guns]

No. If there is, please enlighten me.

You're completely ignoring the fact the dealer has to comply with state law (ie: price of the bgc) and federal law (ie: record keeping requirements).

A dealer, like any other business, assumes risk simply by being in business. The dealer is required to keep records of the transaction for 20 years or until they go out of business. At any time their records can be audited. If there's a mistake, they face certain penalties which could range from minor to severe. That means the ATF can call and ask for a trace on a gun a dealer sold 19 years earlier. That dealer has a strict time frame to report back to the ATF on the information they request. Not to mention they're responsible for their employees and making sure their employees do the paperwork properly, file it properly, etc. The ATF isn't gonna give a rat's ass that your employee (or the dealer) was a slacker and didn't do or maintain the paperwork properly if there's a problem.

Furthermore, the dealer has to provide computers, record keeping software, phone lines, power, insurance, office supplies, expensive inventory, employees (usually), tax preparers and on and on and on.

You can't possibly be so naive as to think a bgc occurs in a vacuum absent of other factors. Obviously you've never been in business for yourself. If you have...WOW!

[BlasterBob]

At one time, it was questionable if the Colorado FFL dealer was actually obligated to run the transfer through his bound book in addition to getting the BGC, Also, it was questioned whether or not there was any chance the FFL dealer may some how be obligated to collect any tax on the transfers if the firearm was actually run through his bound book. Apparently those concerns have all settled down.

[Great-Kazoo]

]


Calm down sweetheart. No need to get all cranky lol.




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No need to personally insult me. Please read the entire law again.


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You think i'm personally insulting you, by calling you ignorant? After the numerous replies trying to explain why there are other charges.
Isn't there a statue somewhere you should be pulling down

https://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.HgwTEbayhCPcQ_vJpa6xzQFNC7&pid=15.1&P=0&w=286&h=162

[Wiggity]

And when is it ok for the gov to tell a business what they can charge for a service? It's not ever ok.

While I agree with everyone here that the fee written into the law is just the BGC fee and the store can charge what ever they want for a transfer, let's say the OP is right and $10 total bgc+transfer is the law, I'm still ok paying more.

I hate the law and would much rather do it for free in a parking lot like we used too. But if the gov is going to mandate stores provide a particular service, as a freedom loving American who supports the small businesses that support my hobby, I believe they should charge whatever reasonable fee they want. If they charge too much, the free market will work that out. I buy firearms the same place I transfer them. I prefer to support the stores who take care of me even if it means they charge a few dollars over the $10 in the BS law.

I mean, the law shouldn't even be there in the first place. I see why an FFL would want to charge for it. However, as a consumer, I don't exactly want to be charged an additional fat fee for something I shouldn't even have to do in the first place. I've probably done over 100 of them and I know exactly how much work goes into a "transfer". $20-$40 for 3 mins of work is steep.


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[Wiggity]

You're completely ignoring the fact the dealer has to comply with state law (ie: price of the bgc) and federal law (ie: record keeping requirements).

A dealer, like any other business, assumes risk simply by being in business. The dealer is required to keep records of the transaction for 20 years or until they go out of business. At any time their records can be audited. If there's a mistake, they face certain penalties which could range from minor to severe. That means the ATF can call and ask for a trace on a gun a dealer sold 19 years earlier. That dealer has a strict time frame to report back to the ATF on the information they request. Not to mention they're responsible for their employees and making sure their employees do the paperwork properly, file it properly, etc. The ATF isn't gonna give a rat's ass that your employee (or the dealer) was a slacker and didn't do or maintain the paperwork properly if there's a problem.

Furthermore, the dealer has to provide computers, record keeping software, phone lines, power, insurance, office supplies, expensive inventory, employees (usually), tax preparers and on and on and on.

You can't possibly be so naive as to think a bgc occurs in a vacuum absent of other factors. Obviously you've never been in business for yourself. If you have...WOW!

You assume incorrectly on multiple levels. One being, I worked at an FFL right out of school. We were audited a few times. Record keeping involved filling out the paperwork correctly and keeping it in an organized file cabinet. It's not a lot of work. A bgc itself is minimally labor intensive.


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[cstone]

I mean, the law shouldn't even be there in the first place. I see why an FFL would want to charge for it. However, as a consumer, I don't exactly want to be charged an additional fat fee for something I shouldn't even have to do in the first place. I've probably done over 100 of them and I know exactly how much work goes into a "transfer". $20-$40 for 3 mins of work is steep.


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Let me start by agreeing with you that IMO the governmental intrusion on private transaction is repugnant.

How much do you pay for vehicle insurance when you are not driving or do not have a claim? Why would anyone pay that fee unless they were required by governmental intrusion? The analogy is not perfectly matched to the transfer law but I believe it provides another example of government intrusion into our private lives. And for those who would make the argument about driving on public roads, keep in mind that government vehicles: local, state, and federal, driving on those same roads are self insured by the tax payers of those jurisdictions. Another double standard brought to you by those we elect to represent us.

What are you (We) going to do about it?

[Wiggity]

]





You think i'm personally insulting you, by calling you ignorant? After the numerous replies trying to explain why there are other charges.
Isn't there a statue somewhere you should be pulling down

https://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.HgwTEbayhCPcQ_vJpa6xzQFNC7&pid=15.1&P=0&w=286&h=162

I know why an FFL wants to charge. Im not asking about that. I'm asking a fair question about the letter of a law that was passed here in Colorado.

Calling me a snowflake and comparing me to a criminal when you yourself can't put your feelings aside and handle a simple question? I don't understand why you would do that and it doesn't make sense. We're on the same side here, don't pretend otherwise.


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[rondog]

I run my private and internet purchase transfers through Bill Stark for this reason. Mucho cheaper.

[Squeeze]

I know why an FFL wants to charge. Im not asking about that. I'm asking a fair question about the letter of a law that was passed here in Colorado.

Calling me a snowflake and comparing me to a criminal when you yourself can't put your feelings aside and handle a simple question? I don't understand why you would do that and it doesn't make sense. We're on the same side here, don't pretend otherwise.


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Wasn't there just a post recently from a moderator discussing the civility of this group? [facepalm]

[Bailey Guns]

OK. Well, I apologize for giving you a logical, detailed answer to your question. It's obvious you're only interested in having your opinion validated and you aren't interested in a real answer from someone who was in the business for years or others that have tried to explain it.

My advice to you: Get your own FFL and charge yourself and others $6 to do private transfers.

[To Bear Arms]

At one time, it was questionable if the Colorado FFL dealer was actually obligated to run the transfer through his bound book in addition to getting the BGC, Also, it was questioned whether or not there was any chance the FFL dealer may some how be obligated to collect any tax on the transfers if the firearm was actually run through his bound book. Apparently those concerns have all settled down.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/ruling/atf-procedure-2017-1-facilitating-non-ffl-transfers-firearms/download

If it never went thru the dealers "bound book" then the only record of the transfer would be the 4473. Which has to be numbered and coincide with the FFL's bound book. Conducting a BGC without a firearm is against the law. The ATF had to put out a ruling on how to conduct BGC for private party transfers after Colorado made it a law.

[BPTactical]

It's a free market system.
The FFL is free to charge whatever they want to facilitate the transfer.
Your free to use whatever FFL you want.

Problem solved.

[BPTactical]

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/ruling/atf-procedure-2017-1-facilitating-non-ffl-transfers-firearms/download

If it never went thru the dealers "bound book" then the only record of the transfer would be the 4473. Which has to be numbered and coincide with the FFL's bound book. Conducting a BGC without a firearm is against the law. The ATF had to put out a ruling on how to conduct BGC for private party transfers after Colorado made it a law.

Not to mention on the new 4473 there is a check box: "Is this a private party transfer" .

[sniper7]

Wiggity,

You are absolutely correct. The best thing to do is do a private transfer at each and every FFL you can find, then spend a bunch of money on lawyers to draw up your case and head to court.

Then the judge can explain to you what everyone else has been saying....you're wrong! Drop it already.

[CS1983]

It's a free market system.
The FFL is free to charge whatever they want to facilitate the transfer.
Your free to use whatever FFL you want.

Problem solved.
The forcing of an additional purchase, even of a service, negates the "free" in "free" market. That's why insurance, medical costs, etc., are so stupidly expensive compared to the actual product/service being put out. If forced into purchasing a service, e.g., a transfer/BGC, is free market, then so is the "insurance" industry post-ComradeCare.

[Wiggity]

Wasn't there just a post recently from a moderator discussing the civility of this group? [facepalm]

I would hope so. Apparently it didn't stick very well.


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[Wiggity]

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/ruling/atf-procedure-2017-1-facilitating-non-ffl-transfers-firearms/download

If it never went thru the dealers "bound book" then the only record of the transfer would be the 4473. Which has to be numbered and coincide with the FFL's bound book. Conducting a BGC without a firearm is against the law. The ATF had to put out a ruling on how to conduct BGC for private party transfers after Colorado made it a law.

Thank you for this. Easily the best post so far. I appreciate you providing something concrete.


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[Wiggity]

It's a free market system.
The FFL is free to charge whatever they want to facilitate the transfer.
Your free to use whatever FFL you want.

Problem solved.

Not really. It's extremely regulated and people try to pass it off as a free market.


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[Wiggity]

Wiggity,

You are absolutely correct. The best thing to do is do a private transfer at each and every FFL you can find, then spend a bunch of money on lawyers to draw up your case and head to court.

Then the judge can explain to you what everyone else has been saying....you're wrong! Drop it already.

Well I'm not trying to do that. You guys are taking this way too far. Posting here among like-minded friends is like jumping into a pit of vipers sometimes.


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[OtterbatHellcat]

With due respect and being considerate....

Dude..

[beatdeadhorse]

[Bailey Guns]

Sometimes, there just aren't enough face palms...

[Circuits]

I was an FFL for 15 years. I did the background check for free, charged $25 for my services, and even paid the $7 (used to be $8) CBI fee out of my end. An itemized bill from me would read:

Background Check - $0
FFL Services - $25

No sales tax on labor.

The only possible outcome of actually forcing FFLs to charge no more than $10 for private party background checks, even if the CBI fee is now down to $6, will be that almost all FFLs would simply stop performing private party background checks.

Maybe they'd offer to do them only if you purchased some amount of other goods or services from their shop in the same transaction - which will wind up being the same thing as the current system.

In my 15 years, never did I have a BGC check take "only" three minutes, either. It got better once the online system became available, but it took longer than 3 minutes just to review the form, get transferee to correct mistakes or fill out stuff they left empty, verify and record their ID, enter data and submit, then check back periodically on the system until it's completed, then print out the approvals for the records and do the final sign-off.

[CS1983]

Fun fact I learned about a year ago:

Having one's new address on the back of a license != good for the state to purchase a firearm because that little sticker and your handwriting isn't state issued. They won't take your word for it on your new address

However, once can give any address they please for an extra rod license and voila! "state issued" documentation of current address = good for state to purchase firearm.

Isn't that sensible? :)

[OneGuy67]

You don't get a copy of the results, if you fail then you get a reference number and you have to call CBI to find out why you failed.

Like others have stated you pay $6 for the BGC and then the store charges for the separate service of transferring the firearm. 2 services 2 fees. They need to amend that to $6 max because that's the cost of the BGC not $10 anymore.

The reason the price has gone down is, by law the CBI cannot make a profit on Instacheck and they audit themselves annually to determine if the price needs to be changed.


Oh and the BGC isn't the only thing you need because you can pull a BGC off CBI's website directly (or use too). but you need the FFL to do the xfer. That's why the ffl puts it into thier A&D and then signs it out to whoever the buyer is. I think the ATF views the FFL as the "overseer" of the transaction that way hopefully it's "Lawful". But that's IMHO

Many people believe this fallicy and it is incorrect. When you go to the CBI website and pay the $6.85 for a criminal record check, it ONLY provides COLORADO records as we are an open records state. There are a number of states which do not release criminal records to third parties without consent and the CBI does not provide any records other than Colorado, meaning you can have a clean Colorado arrest history and have an extensive criminal history in another state and it will not be shown on the report generated from the CBI. Additionally, it only provides records in which a person has been fingerprinted and those prints submitted to the CBI, so DUI arrests where the person was taken to detox and issued a summons only (no fingerprints rolled), will not have that DUI arrest on their record (It will be on their drivers history record however). Instacheck conducts a more thorough background to include all states and territories records, immigration records, civil court records for mental health issues (court ordered institutional stays), and a few others.


I run my private and internet purchase transfers through Bill Stark for this reason. Mucho cheaper.

Big thumbs up for Bill. Great guy to deal with!

[BPTactical]

The forcing of an additional purchase, even of a service, negates the "free" in "free" market. That's why insurance, medical costs, etc., are so stupidly expensive compared to the actual product/service being put out. If forced into purchasing a service, e.g., a transfer/BGC, is free market, then so is the "insurance" industry post-ComradeCare.


Your free NOT to buy a firearm as well....

[mattiooo]

71698

[BlasterBob]

This is lengthy so if you are going to bitch about the length of it - DON'T READ IT,
So, Mr. A brings in his firearm to a FFL to sell to Mr. B. who is also present. The agreeable FFL provides the blank 4473 which Mr. B will execute properly. Now does the FFL actually enter the individual firearm information in his book at that time? Both buyer and seller standby waiting for the procedure to be completed. The CBI people respond saying that Mr. B has a law violation that precludes him from having any firearm. So the nice FFL advises the buyer and seller of this "road block" and Mr. A tells the dealer he will just take his firearm back home with him. Now since the FFL has the firearm already entered in his book (or authorized computer records) he has to have the seller (Mr. A) fill out a 4473 so the seller can retrieve his firearm to take back home. The nice CBI folks advise the FFL that Mr. A also had a run in with the law a couple years ago (domestic violence) so he cannot take possession from the FFL. OK, what disposition is made of that particular firearm. Perhaps the firearm, since it is already "on the book" can be consigned to someone else for sale. Or can the wife of Mr. A come into the shop, fill out the 4473 and take possession if the CBI authorizes her to retrieve the firearm. Keep in mind that she is signing the 4473 indicating that it is for her personal use and really can't allow her Hubby to take possession since he had that old violation where he beat the crap out of her. This probably an unlikely situation but wonder how this could be handled - legally.
Finally, who does the FFL collect his charges from?

[Great-Kazoo]

violence) wonder how this could be handled - legally.

First thing to do is contact CBI, as they have on numerous occassions denied someone that isn't prohibitted from owning a firearm.
Second, contact a firearms knowledgable attorney, after getting a reply from CBI.

If there is someone who knows ahead of time they cannot pass a BGC. I doubt (hypothetically) they are going through the required steps to lawfully transfer a firearm.

[mattiooo]

.If there is someone who knows ahead of time they cannot pass a BGC. I doubt (hypothetically) they are going through the required steps to lawfully transfer a firearm.

Online there is summary of the stats for either 2013 or 2014 CBI checks. There were literally hundreds of arrests due to people with warrants submitting to background checks. I will search for the link to that presentation.



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[mattiooo]

https://www.colorado.gov/pacific/cbi/previousyearstatistics


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[BlasterBob]

First thing to do is contact CBI, as they have on numerous occassions denied someone that isn't prohibitted from owning a firearm.
Second, contact a firearms knowledgable attorney, after getting a reply from CBI.
.

I was referring to someone who actually had some altercation perhaps as a kid and that declined person truly forgot or overlooked the legitimate old violation. If he hires an Attorney, that would most likely cost him way more than the value of the firearm he'd like to retrieve.

[BPTactical]

If you look at it this way - most businesses value their time at $X0.00 per hour. I think it would be safe to say $50.00 per hour is a conservative estimate.
I know when I was 'Smithing my hourly rate was $65.00 per hour.
Having conducted and observed hundreds of transfers in a retail environment I can safely say the average transfer takes about 30-45 minutes.
This time frame includes the FFL "acquiring" the firearm (logging it into their books, either when a shipment of firearms is received or a party brings it in for a private party transfer), the FFL conducting the BGC and the the FFL "disposing" the firearm (logging it off of their books).
That time frame is also anticipating the BCG only takes 5-10 minutes.
$20-25.00 seems a fair price.
It is worth the value the FFL puts on their time IMO.
Some businesses feel their time is worth more than others.

Blasters post brings to mind a couple of things that I doubt some realize about transfers.
Any time a firearm is logged into a FFL's books the firearm for all intent and purposes is the property of FFL.
The only time a FFL may "transfer" (convey possession) of a firearm to a non FFL without a 4473 and ensuing CBI/NICS BGC is when a firearm is:
A - being picked up* from a licensed (FFL) Gunsmith for the purposes of repair / alteration. *only if the same party who dropped it off to the Gunsmith is picking it up.
B- it is a NFA transfer (the BGC is conducted by the ATF NFA branch when the tax stamp application is processed).

In Blasters scenario where the wife attempts to "transfer" the firearm after the hubby is denied that is a textbook "straw purchase" and therefore unlawful. If the FFL allows that to occur he has facilitated a straw purchase (he knowingly allowed the transfer to the spouse of the prohibited person) he is just as liable for a straw purchase.

[BladesNBarrels]

B- it is a NFA transfer (the BGC is conducted by the ATF NFA branch when the tax stamp application is processed).



All of my recent NFA transfers have had an additional BGC done after the Form 4 has been received.
Before the new statute, the transfers did not include an additional BGC.
I just thought it was a new requirement with the new transfers.
Very Interesting!

[CS1983]

Your free NOT to buy a firearm as well....

I'm also "free" to buy one under the table, and having been perfectly "legal" prior to that, if caught, would become a criminal because I didn't play the game. Don't play stupid, you're better than that. We both know that a simple BGC, or even CCW permit, would be all that's needed. There's no actual need for a legal transfer as such. That's a violation of subsidiarity. There's only ONE reason for the BGC and Transfer to be together, and that's tracking.

I should be able to legally buy or sell ANY ITEM I have which is not IPSO FACTO ILLEGAL without government intrusion. Anything more than that is NOT free market.

[mattiooo]

FWIW - When I was a teenager in Jersey I had to get a license to purchase my model rocket engines. Had to display it every time I bought them in KB Toy Store.

[Mazin]

All of my recent NFA transfers have had an additional BGC done after the Form 4 has been received.
Before the new statute, the transfers did not include an additional BGC.
I just thought it was a new requirement with the new transfers.
Very Interesting!

You know when you pick up your new NFA toy the 4473 you fill out isn't ran it's used as a transaction log so the dealer can sign it out of his A&D.

[Mazin]

FWIW - When I was a teenager in Jersey I had to get a license to purchase my model rocket engines. Had to display it every time I bought them in KB Toy Store.

Another reason I really have no desire to live on the east coast, no big gulps and you need a license to buy model rocket motor....simply madness!!!

[ray1970]

This is lengthy so if you are going to bitch about the length of it - DON'T READ IT,
So, Mr. A brings in his firearm to a FFL to sell to Mr. B. who is also present. The agreeable FFL provides the blank 4473 which Mr. B will execute properly. Now does the FFL actually enter the individual firearm information in his book at that time? Both buyer and seller standby waiting for the procedure to be completed. The CBI people respond saying that Mr. B has a law violation that precludes him from having any firearm. So the nice FFL advises the buyer and seller of this "road block" and Mr. A tells the dealer he will just take his firearm back home with him. Now since the FFL has the firearm already entered in his book (or authorized computer records) he has to have the seller (Mr. A) fill out a 4473 so the seller can retrieve his firearm to take back home. The nice CBI folks advise the FFL that Mr. A also had a run in with the law a couple years ago (domestic violence) so he cannot take possession from the FFL. OK, what disposition is made of that particular firearm. Perhaps the firearm, since it is already "on the book" can be consigned to someone else for sale. Or can the wife of Mr. A come into the shop, fill out the 4473 and take possession if the CBI authorizes her to retrieve the firearm. Keep in mind that she is signing the 4473 indicating that it is for her personal use and really can't allow her Hubby to take possession since he had that old violation where he beat the crap out of her. This probably an unlikely situation but wonder how this could be handled - legally.
Finally, who does the FFL collect his charges from?

This was a bad deal from the get go. In a nut shell, here is how it should work.

Mr. A brings his gun to sell to Mr. B.

Mr. B fills out the 4473 and the FFL processes it.

If Mr. B gets denied, Mr. A takes his gun and goes home and hopefully Mr. B pays the FFL for his time.

Now, if Mr. B passes his background check then the FFL takes possession of Mr. A's firearm and transfers it to Mr. B.

[hollohas]

This was a bad deal from the get go. In a nut shell, here is how it should work.

Mr. A brings his gun to sell to Mr. B.

Mr. B fills out the 4473 and the FFL processes it.

If Mr. B gets denied, Mr. A takes his gun and goes home and hopefully Mr. B pays the FFL for his time.

Now, if Mr. B passes his background check then the FFL takes possession of Mr. A's firearm and transfers it to Mr. B.This is how I thought it should work properly. There is no need to log it prior to the BGC, is there?

[Great-Kazoo]

This is how I thought it should work properly. There is no need to log it prior to the BGC, is there?

Depends on the FFL.

[SideShow Bob]

https://www.colorado.gov/pacific/cbi/previousyearstatistics


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Didn't think that that many dumb arses would try to buy a firearm legally when they knew they wouldn't pass the BGC.

[Great-Kazoo]

Didn't think that that many dumb arses would try to buy a firearm legally when they knew they wouldn't pass the BGC.

It's a side effect of the social media, i just (insert violent felony________here) put on line mentality.

[OtterbatHellcat]

lol

[ray1970]

Didn't think that that many dumb arses would try to buy a firearm legally when they knew they wouldn't pass the BGC.

I was in those statistics of people who got denied. I would think my denial fell under the "other" category for the reason why.

Tried to buy a handgun once and didn't realize my driver's license had expired so I got denied.

[OtterbatHellcat]

Felony assault on an officer that gets reduced to a misdemeanor can really cause you some problems as well.

Just sayin.

[BPTactical]

Felony assault on an officer that gets reduced to a misdemeanor can really cause you some problems as well.

Just sayin.


Intolerant in thine youth?

[OtterbatHellcat]

Yeah, and I'm really glad I grew out of what I'm not able to hold in....if that makes sense.

It's way better this way for sure.

[ChunkyMonkey]

This is lengthy so if you are going to bitch about the length of it - DON'T READ IT,
So, Mr. A brings in his firearm to a FFL to sell to Mr. B. who is also present. The agreeable FFL provides the blank 4473 which Mr. B will execute properly. Now does the FFL actually enter the individual firearm information in his book at that time? Both buyer and seller standby waiting for the procedure to be completed. The CBI people respond saying that Mr. B has a law violation that precludes him from having any firearm. So the nice FFL advises the buyer and seller of this "road block" and Mr. A tells the dealer he will just take his firearm back home with him. Now since the FFL has the firearm already entered in his book (or authorized computer records) he has to have the seller (Mr. A) fill out a 4473 so the seller can retrieve his firearm to take back home. The nice CBI folks advise the FFL that Mr. A also had a run in with the law a couple years ago (domestic violence) so he cannot take possession from the FFL. OK, what disposition is made of that particular firearm. Perhaps the firearm, since it is already "on the book" can be consigned to someone else for sale. Or can the wife of Mr. A come into the shop, fill out the 4473 and take possession if the CBI authorizes her to retrieve the firearm. Keep in mind that she is signing the 4473 indicating that it is for her personal use and really can't allow her Hubby to take possession since he had that old violation where he beat the crap out of her. This probably an unlikely situation but wonder how this could be handled - legally.
Finally, who does the FFL collect his charges from?

FFL doesn't take possession of any firearms until the buyer passes background in most cases. If it's an online order/transfer, we simply ship them back to the originating FFL or the private party's choice of FFL.

Worst case scenario, FFL can surrender the firearm to the local PD.

Furthermore, most FFL do not collect the fee until the bgc approval.

To OP, sometimes, we eat shipping/return cost, sometimes we eat CBI instacheck cost (buyer who flakes out after approval). Hence why there is certain COST to the whole process on top of the 20 year of bookkeeping, property insurance, liability insurance, gun vault/safe (especially since smash and grab are on the rise), human cost, and finally the whole concept of for profit business. If an FFL is charging very high fee, it's simply a polite no, thank you. You have plenty of choices too... in Denver metro, I have seen transfer fee of $10+CBI or in our case, we simply ask you to purchase $25 in store and we waive the private transfer fee.

Finally, I wish all of this energy on this thread could be directed at the CO democratic house and senate.

[mattiooo]

I was in those statistics of people who got denied. I would think my denial fell under the "other" category for the reason why.

Tried to buy a handgun once and didn't realize my driver's license had expired so I got denied.


I didn't know my Drivers License had expired until I tried to do a transfer at Ark earlier this year. They were double checking everything carefully, and didn't even submit the check when they saw my license was expired.

It's the arrests that amaze me more than the denials.

[Circuits]

Depends on the FFL.
No, it doesn't, at least not legally.

ATF issued Procedure 2013-1 to lay out the steps for a private party background check, and the FFL is NOT required to log the firearm in until the background check is done and passed. Any FFL who logs it in before finishing the background check is not following Procedure 2013-1, and is just making more trouble for themselves and their customers.

[Bailey Guns]

Any FFL who logs it in before finishing the background check is not following Procedure 2013-1, and is just making more trouble for themselves and their customers.

A lot of dealers make up the rules as they go. Some are pretty stupid, too. Most are the result of ignorance of what the law actually says.

[BlasterBob]

A lot of dealers make up the rules as they go. Some are pretty stupid, too. Most are the result of ignorance of what the law actually says.

Not so much ignorance as the huge amount of FEAR of doing something improperly and possibly have a BATF Inspector get on their case for an extremely easily made minor error. Years ago while I was an active FFL 01, a BATF Agent checked all my 4473's and the book. He indicated could find NOTHING and was ready to depart. Kinda jokingly, I mentioned that I saw an omission on one 4473. Suggested he just take a quick peek at a couple 4473's that I pulled out and told him that just one of the two had the omission. He checked extra close and said that they were all filled in correctly/properly and I guess I bugged him by telling him that he still missed it. Since I could tell he was getting "upset" I quickly showed him that the buyers county of residence was blank on one form. He kinda chuckled and said gruffly, "FILL IT IN". I'd never screw around like that with today's crop of Agents but no worry as I don't have a 01 anymore. [blaster]

[To Bear Arms]

No, it doesn't, at least not legally.

ATF issued Procedure 2013-1 to lay out the steps for a private party background check, and the FFL is NOT required to log the firearm in until the background check is done and passed. Any FFL who logs it in before finishing the background check is not following Procedure 2013-1, and is just making more trouble for themselves and their customers.

FYI ATF Procedure 2013-1 has been superseded by 2017-1 https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/ruling/atf-procedure-2017-1-facilitating-non-ffl-transfers-firearms/download

[BPTactical]

FYI ATF Procedure 2013-1 has been superseded by 2017-1 https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/ruling/atf-procedure-2017-1-facilitating-non-ffl-transfers-firearms/download

Thank you for that- great clarification

[Martinjmpr]

FFL doesn't take possession of any firearms until the buyer passes background in most cases. If it's an online order/transfer, we simply ship them back to the originating FFL or the private party's choice of FFL.

The guy I normally go to (Bill Stark, I know others here use him as well) actually runs the background check before he even takes possession of the firearm being transferred. For example, when I buy something off of GB, I send Bill the information, he has me come by his house to fill out the BGC paperwork, which he then runs. A few days later (typically) he notifies me that I passed the BGC and then when the gun comes to him I just come by for the transfer. It's a great system that means no waiting around for the BGC to come back.

So in the scenario posted, if B the Buyer has already had his BGC run and come back "rejected" then A the Seller would never even initiate the transfer.

And I agree with others that it sucks that we have to do this but that's what happens when you live in a formerly Red state that is turning Bluer every day. [Rant1]

[BlasterBob]

So in the scenario posted, if B the Buyer has already had his BGC run and come back "rejected" then A the Seller would never even initiate the transfer. . [Rant1]

That is fine as long as the FFL does not enter the firearm in his book upon receipt of it. I knew of some FFL's who'd enter it into their book if it was handed to them for the BCG but can't recall just who those FFL's were. I presume the FFL will have the buyer fill out a 4473.and when the deal is made and Mr. B walks out with his newly acquired firearm, does the FFL just destroy that filled out 4473 or retain it with the appropriate BCG clearance number? If the firearm was not entered in his book and it was later involved in a felony and traced, with the buyer indicating he got it through a certain FFL, and IF the BATF gets involved, will that BATF inspector ask why a firearm was run through his shop yet is not shown in the disposition record. Perhaps the FFL will hang on to the 4473 and just attach a note indicating was merely for a BCG clearance.

[cmailliard]

It is a service, there are many shops who will not even offer do a transfer. All shops could simply say "no" then what would you do? Don't like paying for this particular service, buy a gun off the shelf instead. I have done several private transfers lately. Spent anywhere between $20 & $50. I knew the price before I went in, I paid the money for the service, all was good. It's amazing how simple life is sometimes.

I guess the simple answer is don't like, don't do it. Life has many options and choices, 99% of which are in your control.

[Wiggity]

It is a service, there are many shops who will not even offer do a transfer. All shops could simply say "no" then what would you do? Don't like paying for this particular service, buy a gun off the shelf instead. I have done several private transfers lately. Spent anywhere between $20 & $50. I knew the price before I went in, I paid the money for the service, all was good. It's amazing how simple life is sometimes.

I guess the simple answer is don't like, don't do it. Life has many options and choices, 99% of which are in your control.


I'm glad you see it so simply and clearly for yourself. Unfortunately there aren't many "options and choices" for private transfers. I guess I just don't particularly enjoy the severe infringement on my rights. I also think its funny how FFL's are supportive of the 2A while simultaneously taking full advantage of the situation, and choosing to make a fairly large profit off of, these anti-2A transactional regulations. It sure seems like they don't mind, and might actually enjoy, the increased regulation when it works in their favor financially and drives business their way. This mindset and these actions seem highly hypocritical to me.

Shoutout to Damage Factory for not completely falling into this category.

[davsel]

[beatdeadhorse] much?

[Great-Kazoo]

[beatdeadhorse] much?

No he hates Capitalism .
and choosing to make a fairly large profit

Some people shop for a deal others don't.. Again, it's about knowing what if any fees there are prior to walking through their door.

All the forum needs now is another.. BGC = gun registration threads.

[Wiggity]

No he hates Capitalism .
and choosing to make a fairly large profit

Some people shop for a deal others don't.. Again, it's about knowing what if any fees there are prior to walking through their door.

All the forum needs now is another.. BGC = gun registration threads.

Wrong yet again lol. You definitely took that line out of context in order to make me look bad as usual. I love capitalism. I hate unnecessary regulation - the antithesis of capitalism. The stem of the issue comes from unnecessary regulation.

You could say I don't like when people capitalize on anti-capitalist regulations - completely contradicting themselves morally. But I guess we live in a dog-eat-dog world.


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[Martinjmpr]

Never been an FFL, but I'm not sure that dealers are making a "fairly large profit" from doing transfers, especially when you consider that every private transfer represents a potentially lost sale from that dealers own stock. Also a brick-and-mortar dealer has other business expenses as well just to maintain his business.




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[hurley842002]

Never been an FFL, but I'm not sure that dealers are making a "fairly large profit" from doing transfers, especially when you consider that every private transfer represents a potentially lost sale from that dealers own stock. Also a brick-and-mortar dealer has other business expenses as well just to maintain his business.




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Yup

The way I see it, the FFL's who do private party transfers (rather it's $25 or $50), are still doing us a favor, because if they all chose not to do private party transfers, we would have no choice but to buy from them.

[Bailey Guns]

Never been an FFL, but I'm not sure that dealers are making a "fairly large profit" from doing transfers, especially when you consider that every private transfer represents a potentially lost sale from that dealers own stock. Also a brick-and-mortar dealer has other business expenses as well just to maintain his business.




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We already tried logic and common sense in this thread. Had no effect.

[Great-Kazoo]

We already tried logic and common sense in this thread. Had no effect.

Meanies

[Mazin]

Ok enough of [beatdeadhorse][beatdeadhorse][beatdeadhorse][beatdeadhorse]

/thread