Question

[dogduster]

Morning All,

I have a friend that built an AR10 several years ago, including the receiver. It does not have any serial numbers on any part of the gun. Now he is thinking about selling it. What would it take for him to sell this gun legally?

Thank you for your input.

[Skip]

My understanding...

Unless he is a licensed manufacturer (at the time the weapon was manufactured) he can't legally sell or transfer it.

What he could do is pull the lower and sell the parts. Or he could purchase a new lower (serialized, background check, etc...) and rebuild the rifle. Either of those would leave him with his original lower which he could keep or destroy.

[dogduster]

That is what I thought. I wasn't sure if he could put a permanent s/n number on the receiver and sell it though a licensed dealer.
Thank you for your help.

[SAnd]

It would have to have a background check. That means it would have to go through a licensed dealer. Currently the published ATF position is that it has to be marked. Those two items means you probably won't be able to find a dealer that will do a background check.

When does a receiver need to have markings and/or serial numbers?
Receivers that meet the definition of a “firearm” must have markings, including a serial number. See 27 CFR § 478.92 (Firearm manufacturers marking requirements).

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/when-does-receiver-need-have-markings-andor-serial-numbers

[SAnd]

My understanding...

Unless he is a licensed manufacturer (at the time the weapon was manufactured) he can't legally sell or transfer it.


If he didn't make it to sell he isn't a manufacturer and doesn't need to be a licensed manufacturer. He can legally sell it. He may have a problem finding an FFL to handle the background check though.

27 CFR Part 478.11 SUBPART B - Definitions
Meaning of terms.
Engaged in the business—
a. Manufacturer of firearms. A person who devotes time, attention, and labor to manufacturing firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the firearms manufactured;
https://atf-eregs.18f.gov/478-11/2016-00112#478-11-p1339644464

[Circuits]

Firearms do not have to have a serial number unless they were made by a licensed manufacturer or imported by a licensed importer after the Gun Control Act of 1968 went into effect.

There are millions of pre-1968 firearms with no serial number like the kind that used to be sold over the counter at Sears or JC Penney or Western Auto and such. Home-built non-NFA firearms do not have to have serial numbers unless state law says otherwise.

Some dealers won't deal with unserialled firearms because they're ignorant or scared and haven't read the back of the 4473 form, which explicitly details how to handle transactions involving unserialled firearms.

Other than finding a non-ignorant dealer to handle the background check if necessary, there's no problem selling such a firearm.

[def90]

It is legal to sell as is.. as stated above, serial numbers weren't even required by manufacturers until 1968 so there are tons of firearms out there without numbers.. you may have to search around to find an FFL that will do it

[Skip]

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/does-individual-need-license-make-firearm-personal-use


No, a license is not required to make a firearm solely for personal use. However, a license is required to manufacture firearms for sale or distribution. The law prohibits a person from assembling a non–sporting semiautomatic rifle or shotgun from 10 or more imported parts, as well as firearms that cannot be detected by metal detectors or x–ray machines. In addition, the making of an NFA firearm requires a tax payment and advance approval by ATF.

[18 U.S.C. 922(o), (p) and (r); 26 U.S.C. 5822; 27 CFR 478.39, 479.62 and 479.105]

[Circuits]

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/does-individual-need-license-make-firearm-personal-use
Yes, we all know of that regulation. It does not mean a firearm built for personal use cannot ever be sold - only that the firearm could not have been built with the initial intent of selling it.

Build a rifle to give or sell to your buddy? Illegal.
Build a rifle for yourself, later need some money for bills or just want to thin out the collection? Legal.

[Skip]

Yes, we all know of that regulation. It does not mean a firearm built for personal use cannot ever be sold - only that the firearm could not have been built with the initial intent of selling it.

Build a rifle to give or sell to your buddy? Illegal.
Build a rifle for yourself, later need some money for bills or just want to thin out the collection? Legal.

You're right...

https://www.criminaldefenselawyer.com/resources/can-i-sell-or-give-my-homemade-gun-another-person.htm


The Gun Maker's Original Intent

The key in determining whether a homemade gun can be legally sold or transferred rests with knowing the intent of the maker when the gun was first created. Relevant factors in determining the transferor’s intent may include: the length of time between the creation of the firearm and its transfer; the specific reason for the sale or transfer; and whether the maker of the firearm frequently sells or transfers homemade firearms. For example, a time lapse between creation and sale of many years, a reason for sale that has no sinister overtones, and a transfer that is one-in-a-lifetime for the transferor, would indicate an original intent to keep the gun. By contrast, quickly transferring a gun right after its creation, to someone who could not legally possess a firearm, by someone who regularly transfers such guns, would indicate a lack of intent to keep the gun.


I personally wouldn't take this risk as the criteria is subjective and the ATF presumes we are guilty until proven innocent.

I recall the Obama threat to prosecute over transfers (saying we are dealers by just selling a firearm). The NRA, and others asked "how many transfers does a dealer make?" They wouldn't answer. We all know why. It comes down to what they can convince a jury to believe about you.

[Great-Kazoo]

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/does-individual-need-license-make-firearm-personal-use

MANUFACTUER Is the key word.
One who finishes an 80% lower is a maker. Justy as one who makes their own suppressor.

[ben4372]

I think if it were marked in a way similar to when one does a SBR one would be okay. I built a gun a long time ago put my name, city and serial number that had the year. The year was to establish compliance when I built it as laws were always changing.

[Skip]

MANUFACTUER Is the key word.
One who finishes an 80% lower is a maker. Justy as one who makes their own suppressor.

Yes, you are right.

But I recall "seller" doesn't mean "dealer." Until a Dim gets elected.

I'd have no problem building one for personal use and know people who have. I think it's really cool and good for our rights (calls into question all those "laws" that are meaningless). I just personally wouldn't transfer/sell. Not worth the risk to me of the subjectivity I quoted on page 1 and Circuits calls that out too (intent).

I also wouldn't buy a bunch of guns to try them out and then sell them for the same reason. My intent was never to be a dealer. When was the last time intent saved someone from the ATF?

[Rumline]

When was the last time intent saved someone from the ATF?
That reminds me...whatever happened to that guy who used the Hillary defense re: classified info?