View Full Version : New toll lanes for I-25
http://gazette.com/toll-lanes-are-best-bet-for-i-25-widening-cdot-official-says/article/1616530
http://www.denverpost.com/2017/12/04/toll-lanes-i-25-castle-rock-monument/
More taxes siphoned off for Lexus Lanes [Rant1]
It is tough to tell with all the marketing jargon, but some quick googling indicates that Hick's outgoing CDOT head guy is moving to a DC think-tank that advocates for things like...wait for it...toll roads.
KevDen2005
12-05-2017, 07:53
This state and the damn toll roads. It's getting irritating.
Pay to build the road
Pay to maintain the road
Pay to drive the road
No sympathy from me anymore. Coloradans are made of money, look at how they vote! 4% income tax needs to increase too IMHO. Too many nice cars on these roads. That money could be wasted on public education!
Hopefully the El Paso County guy will be able to resist this:
El Paso County Commissioner Mark Waller said he's advocating for El Paso County to put another $9 million toward the project through its regular budgeting process this year and next.
Waller, a key player in getting the recently approved funding requests on the November ballot, said he's heard from constituents who aren't pleased with the idea of widening the interstate with toll roads. "We've identified the $350 million necessary to get this project moving forward," he said after Monday's media briefing. "I haven't seen a capital construction need for tolling to make this project work."
ETA: we need to show up and argue against tolls:
CDOT will hold two open houses for the project this week. The first will be from 5 p.m. to 7 p.m. Tuesday at Kirk Hall at the Douglas County Fairgrounds; the second will be 5 p.m. to 7 p.m. Thursday at the El Paso County Office of Emergency Management, 3755 Mark Dabling Boulevard
Zundfolge
12-05-2017, 09:41
Wait a minute ... didn't we just vote to let them keep our Tabor refund specifically to widen I-25? Now they need OTHER forms of funding?
Bloody thieves.
Remember that time we overthrew the world's leading empire for a taxation scheme which looks absolutely benign in comparison to modern American taxation?
Pepperidge Farm remembers
Remember that time we overthrew the world's leading empire for a taxation scheme which looks absolutely benign in comparison to modern American taxation?
Pepperidge Farm remembers
And what was that outrageous tax rate again?
An egregious, royal-head rolling 2%, give or take.
3beansalad
12-05-2017, 11:28
Why anyone voted for this I don't understand. Give the gov't a dollar and they come back asking for two. The shortsightedness of Colorado Springs voters this year is dumbfounding.
All this on top of the Colorado Springs sales tax rate of 8.25% plus a common PIF that ranges from .75 - 2.75%
My wife and I have discussed this a lot, considering we live near the north part of E-470 (and the soon-to-be-built completion project, the Jefferson Parkway) and US36. She's from FL, where most major highways are toll roads (full roads, not lanes), but they don't pay a state income tax. If you can't utilize the funds you're already getting properly, then perhaps you need to learn to better manage your money. We pay taxes to go to roads, but that money is spent elsewhere. Someone needs to figure this out, as the roads in CO are awful. I think we recently hit the top 10 for worst roads in America.
Yet...without public input...they just recently sold off the income from the Boulder toll road.
ChadAmberg
12-05-2017, 14:05
I was just reading an article about a toll road in Wash DC that's 40 bucks each way.
I was just reading an article about a toll road in Wash DC that's 40 bucks each way.
Yikes. Seems like it would be cheaper to buy a powered paraglider and just 007 into the office.
kidicarus13
12-05-2017, 14:40
https://ezfreightfactoring.com/blog/expensive-toll-roads-united-states
The 11 Most Expensive Toll Roads in America by the Mile
Chesapeake Expressway (Virginia): $1.05
17-Mile Drive (California): 54.4 cents
Ford Bend Parkway (Houston, Texas): 53.3 cents
Chicago Skyway: 51.2 cents
Delaware Turnpike: 36 cents
E-470 (Denver, Colorado): 33 cents
SR-73 (Orange County, California): 25 cents
Texas State Highway 130: 14.6 cents
Triangle Expressway (Raleigh, North Carolina): 14.5 cents
Florida State Road 417: 14.3 cents
New Jersey Turnpike: 11.4 cents
Yet...without public input...they just recently sold off the income from the Boulder toll road.
They had 4 public meetings. Only a few showed. After the contract was signed is when the public cared.
The I25 toll between castle rock and monument is being rushed through to make a certain politician look good and before anyone notices. So fast that cdot policies are being ignored in design.
Wait a minute ... didn't we just vote to let them keep our Tabor refund specifically to widen I-25? Now they need OTHER forms of funding?
Bloody thieves.
You mean the tabor refund from excess pot tax?
The extra amount I pay each year with the extra Roads and Bridges fees Ritter Owens tacked on before he left is what really pisses me off about this. Even more so is why is my (same MY) 13 year old RV more than my 13 year old truck? Neither of which are commuter vehicles. I know it's their weight, but for cryin out loud, it's an RV! It has RECREATIONAL right in the name!
Wasn't there a failed bond issue in 2005 for this, then Ritter put it into the DMV fees anyway?
We are so fucked.
We are so fucked.
That about sums it up.
I was come back to town on I-70 last week and noticed the new toll lanes. I also noticed that they have taken any opportunity to get out of traffic for a flat or breakdown in many areas. But what caught my eye was the lane markers. LEDs. A quick search said they cost 174 each. I counted A LOT. They know how to spend money. http://kdvr.com/2015/02/13/new-solar-pucks-light-up-i-70-for-drivers-in-the-mountains/
GilpinGuy
12-06-2017, 00:34
I was come back to town on I-70 last week and noticed the new toll lanes. I also noticed that they have taken any opportunity to get out of traffic for a flat or breakdown in many areas. But what caught my eye was the lane markers. LEDs. A quick search said they cost 174 each. I counted A LOT. They know how to spend money. http://kdvr.com/2015/02/13/new-solar-pucks-light-up-i-70-for-drivers-in-the-mountains/
I made a rare trip to Denver the other day and saw the LED lights in the road on HWY 93 between Boulder and Golden. My wife and I both thought they were kind of a distraction. Something about it bothered me. Maybe if they were everywhere I'd get used to them but I didn't like them at all.
Is paint cheaper than the LED's? Probably. So LED's it is! Thanks gov't!
Won't the LED''s cause premature wear to the snow plow blades?[Coffee]
I'm not 100% sure but I believe that I read they're finally going to widen i25 in Northern Colorado near Fort Collins to three lanes each direction. The part that I'm not sure about is that I think it's going to be a toll way and to throw salt in that wound I believe the conglomerate that's going to profit from it is based out of Mexico. If that's true then that really boils my blood even more so than just the fact that we have to pay to have three lanes to begin with.
Great-Kazoo
12-06-2017, 07:59
I'm not 100% sure but I believe that I read they're finally going to widen i25 in Northern Colorado near Fort Collins to three lanes each direction. The part that I'm not sure about is that I think it's going to be a toll way and to throw salt in that wound I believe the conglomerate that's going to profit from it is based out of Mexico. If that's true then that really boils my blood even more so than just the fact that we have to pay to have three lanes to begin with.
Not a toll way, yet. They may try to use it as a HOV lane THEN toll / express pass it. Get the masses us to driving on it then charge you for using it.
Like the neighborhood pusher, the first taste is always free
An egregious, royal-head rolling 2%, give or take.
And it's a good thing we have so many brave men now fighting for our freedom.... To be taxed to death.
My wife and I have discussed this a lot, considering we live near the north part of E-470 (and the soon-to-be-built completion project, the Jefferson Parkway) and US36. She's from FL, where most major highways are toll roads (full roads, not lanes), but they don't pay a state income tax. If you can't utilize the funds you're already getting properly, then perhaps you need to learn to better manage your money. We pay taxes to go to roads, but that money is spent elsewhere. Someone needs to figure this out, as the roads in CO are awful. I think we recently hit the top 10 for worst roads in America.
Yes!
This worth pointing out because you see the pressure cooker Colorado is putting the middle class in. We don't just pay for those roads once, we pay for them over and over again in different taxes (oops, sorry Mr. Ritter, "taxes and fees").
With the growth, comes an increase in that tax revenue with a need to increase roadway capacity. This shouldn't be a problem and that's why we enacted TABOR. The tax schemes we already had provided increased revenue with increased need. What they are doing under the cry "we need more money" is restricting that increased capacity.
Take 36 during morning rush hour and you'll see what I'm trying to explain. The right two lanes are bumper-to-bumper, left lane campers when you can drive, all sort of mixed traffic in the right/margining. The toll lane is fairly wide open.
No matter which of those three lanes you are in, you already paid for that road. But the Libtard voters are all to happy to rent something they've already paid for.
I made a rare trip to Denver the other day and saw the LED lights in the road on HWY 93 between Boulder and Golden. My wife and I both thought they were kind of a distraction. Something about it bothered me. Maybe if they were everywhere I'd get used to them but I didn't like them at all.
Is paint cheaper than the LED's? Probably. So LED's it is! Thanks gov't!
Those aren't LEDs, they're reflectors drilled into the asphalt that reflect when your headlights hit them so you can better see the lanes. They did this a couple months ago and while driving it really does help. I don't think they were that expensive, and it might be a new thing the state is trying since road paint fades so quickly here. I actually like them. I live just North of that section of 93.
And it's a good thing we have so many brave men now fighting for our freedom.... To be taxed to death.
Yes!
This worth pointing out because you see the pressure cooker Colorado is putting the middle class in. We don't just pay for those roads once, we pay for them over and over again in different taxes (oops, sorry Mr. Ritter, "taxes and fees").
With the growth, comes an increase in that tax revenue with a need to increase roadway capacity. This shouldn't be a problem and that's why we enacted TABOR. The tax schemes we already had provided increased revenue with increased need. What they are doing under the cry "we need more money" is restricting that increased capacity.
Take 36 during morning rush hour and you'll see what I'm trying to explain. The right two lanes are bumper-to-bumper, left lane campers when you can drive, all sort of mixed traffic in the right/margining. The toll lane is fairly wide open.
No matter which of those three lanes you are in, you already paid for that road. But the Libtard voters are all to happy to rent something they've already paid for.
Your explanation meets the onus of the traditional understanding of Usury: paying for something which doesn't exist/paying for something and then also paying to use it.
Will1776
12-06-2017, 20:01
Y'all don't know bad road and excessive tolls till you've lived in Connecticut or tri-state area in general [ROFL2]
Great-Kazoo
12-06-2017, 20:08
Y'all don't know bad road and excessive tolls till you've lived in Connecticut or tri-state area in general [ROFL2]
NYT, ANY bridge or tunnel in the area.
NYC is the only place you're required to Pay a toll before you're able to leave.
OtterbatHellcat
12-06-2017, 21:25
Retarded damn idea IMO.
Just like the "improvement" on HWY 36.
NYT, ANY bridge or tunnel in the area.
NYC is the only place you're required to Pay a toll before you're able to leave.
Gig Harbor, WA. to cross the Tacoma Narrows bridge back to Tacoma. $5
Unless you want to get to Tacoma driving down through Cascade.
Come to think of it, doesn't SF have outbound tolls? :-)
Great-Kazoo
12-07-2017, 00:03
Gig Harbor, WA. to cross the Tacoma Narrows bridge back to Tacoma. $5
Unless you want to get to Tacoma driving down through Cascade.
Come to think of it, doesn't SF have outbound tolls? :-)
I "think" most of SF is out.
Gig Harbor, WA. to cross the Tacoma Narrows bridge back to Tacoma. $5
Unless you want to get to Tacoma driving down through Cascade.
Come to think of it, doesn't SF have outbound tolls? :-)I think it was $5.50 when we crossed a couple of weeks ago.
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GilpinGuy
12-07-2017, 18:10
Those aren't LEDs, they're reflectors drilled into the asphalt that reflect when your headlights hit them so you can better see the lanes. They did this a couple months ago and while driving it really does help. I don't think they were that expensive, and it might be a new thing the state is trying since road paint fades so quickly here. I actually like them. I live just North of that section of 93.
Interesting. I thought that at first, but looked in my rear view and saw white lights behind us in the distance. [Dunno]
I think it was $5.50 when we crossed a couple of weeks ago.
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Could be.
I will find out come 12-21, we'll be there for 9 days over the holidays. Eldest son, DIL, and youngest Grandson live there SW of Gig Harbor proper. Beautiful country, but I can't stomach the weather or being around most anyone near Seattle. COL is killing them out there, they're talking about moving to San Antonio now.
KevDen2005
12-08-2017, 08:17
Those aren't LEDs, they're reflectors drilled into the asphalt that reflect when your headlights hit them so you can better see the lanes. They did this a couple months ago and while driving it really does help. I don't think they were that expensive, and it might be a new thing the state is trying since road paint fades so quickly here. I actually like them. I live just North of that section of 93.
Are those also reflectors in I70 EB from Idaho Springs. That is pretty slick. The lanes are very visible and I think helps out a lot.
And sometimes up front costs are more expensive but over all costs less expensive like constant accidents and clean up causing delays causing workers to constantly be in that area. I'm not defending every thing the government spends money on, even on the roadway, but keeping those lanes visible is probably a good idea. A lot of morons on the road that need all the help they can get.
Could be.
I will find out come 12-21, we'll be there for 9 days over the holidays. Eldest son, DIL, and youngest Grandson live there W/NW of Gig Harbor proper. Beautiful country, but I can't stomach the weather or being around most anyone near Seattle. COL is killing them out there, they're talking about moving to San Antonio now.
I lived out there in Silverdale for 8 months. Bremerton is a huge shit hole. My wife and I also couldn't stand it and left. I had no idea about the toll to go into Tacoma until we drove it one day. What a present surprise that was.
Are those also reflectors in I70 EB from Idaho Springs. That is pretty slick. The lanes are very visible and I think helps out a lot.
And sometimes up front costs are more expensive but over all costs less expensive like constant accidents and clean up causing delays causing workers to constantly be in that area. I'm not defending every thing the government spends money on, even on the roadway, but keeping those lanes visible is probably a good idea. A lot of morons on the road that need all the help they can get.
If you turn off your lights, the markers still show up, and you can see them in your rear view at the same time. I think they are LED.
Went to the meeting last night. For the record I’m still steamed at the absolute dishonesty of asking El Paso County voters for money without any mention of a toll road, only to tell us about the possibility of tolls immediately after it passed.
I got a lesson on “how to lie with statistics” that was a complete whoosh for most everyone else there as far as I can tell.
They had two charts that were supposed to show how well Express (toll) lanes work. I think it was data from highway 36, but I’m not sure. It had before/after congestion data that showed a significant decrease after the Express lane was added. I believe the data as presented, however…
What was missing is what would have happened if they had just added another NON-express lane? Better than additional lane + making it a toll? Worse? Point being, we don’t know. Anticipating the objection, the presenter said “we can’t build our way out of congestion” pointing to T-REX as a failure. Of course, if they honestly believed their data, they’d make one lane of the T-REX corridor an Express lane and there’d be love and unicorns for everyone. But they aren’t, so Express lanes must not be the panacea that they’re trying to sell.
I cornered one of the traffic guys and pointed out this “missing data” and how T-REX congestion was not a defense and he pointed out how much it would cost to make a T-REX lane an Express lane as an experiment. I countered that yes, that would be an expensive experiment. It wouldn’t cost ANYTHING (except loss in revenue – ding! We have a winner!) to just turn off tolls on the road they gathered their data from (36?) for a month and gather the "just adding a lane" data so they can have an apples-to-apples comparison.
At that point he started complementing me on how smart I was (I kid you not) and it became obvious that I was getting combustible by-products blown up my ass.
They just want the money, period.
Throughout the meeting it was repeated over and over that the Express lane is just one of many options, but in my opinion it’s a done deal.
O2
From someone inside cdot, it is a done deal. Toll lane is the only option, everything else is just a show to make you feel involved.
I lived out there in Silverdale for 8 months. Bremerton is a huge shit hole. My wife and I also couldn't stand it and left. I had no idea about the toll to go into Tacoma until we drove it one day. What a present surprise that was.
Bremerton, yup. Naval town. We drove through there and back on a day trip all the way up the peninsula to waddle through Fort Warden. It was worth the trip seeing those old massive gun bunkers. However, we didn't tour the interior of any of the buildings. Found somewhere to have late lunch in Port Townsend, wandered around the wharf there a bit and hit the road. Fun drive for the most part. Getting back through Bremerton on hwy 3 near rush hour sucked.
P.S. Mispoke earlier. The kids are SW Gig Harbor proper, near the golf club. Beautiful countryside there.
I am not surprised that the bribes were collected long before anything was said to the public.
What would happen if “no toll roads - ever” was on the ballot next fall?
Aloha_Shooter
12-12-2017, 10:14
I have no objection to toll roads per se. When I was in Northern VA, a private concern saw the traffic congestion from new developments past Herndon and built a private toll road. No government funds involved and it worked for both the users and the investors. What I object to is how the state is trying to have its cake and eat it too by raising taxes/fees, supposedly to meet public needs but then designing the solution to force MORE fees from the public as an end-run around TABOR. The unspeakable corruption in state government going back to Roy Romer and "evolution" of Colorado Springs city government since Bob Isaac departed the mayor's office is maddening.
KevDen2005
12-12-2017, 10:17
I have no objection to toll roads per se. When I was in Northern VA, a private concern saw the traffic congestion from new developments past Herndon and built a private toll road. No government funds involved and it worked for both the users and the investors. What I object to is how the state is trying to have its cake and eat it too by raising taxes/fees, supposedly to meet public needs but then designing the solution to force MORE fees from the public as an end-run around TABOR. The unspeakable corruption in state government going back to Roy Romer and "evolution" of Colorado Springs city government since Bob Isaac departed the mayor's office is maddening.
If it's completely private I can get on board with that. As you pointed out the state is trying to make money.
Just another De-Brucing attempt, as Aloha has pointed out.
On a related note, got this message in an email from Express Toll. Day late and a dollar short kind of thing, but I'll take what I can get.
Happy Holidays from E-470! As a thank you for being a valued ExpressToll customer, we are freezing toll rates! That means ExpressToll customers will have no toll increases on E-470 for up to three years. Thank you for choosing E-470. Enjoy the gift of savings!Read the toll announcement news release for more information.
JohnTRourke
12-19-2017, 08:51
ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, no toll increases
when it started it was 25c to go to the first exit there off south I25. now it's a $1.25 (I think, could be more)
in a truck (which would be really helpful to get the trucks out of downtown denver), it's $30 PER TOLL STATION
no wonder it has no traffic
Know if it still fails to Bill people with temp tags? I know when i first got my truck i had a few runs around to South Denver saves a bundle never receiving bill. Hoping to repeat with motorcycle since it's going to be awfull enough as is riding it back home at 20degrees.
DavieD55
12-19-2017, 13:07
Went to the meeting last night. For the record I’m still steamed at the absolute dishonesty of asking El Paso County voters for money without any mention of a toll road, only to tell us about the possibility of tolls immediately after it passed.
I got a lesson on “how to lie with statistics” that was a complete whoosh for most everyone else there as far as I can tell.
They had two charts that were supposed to show how well Express (toll) lanes work. I think it was data from highway 36, but I’m not sure. It had before/after congestion data that showed a significant decrease after the Express lane was added. I believe the data as presented, however…
What was missing is what would have happened if they had just added another NON-express lane? Better than additional lane + making it a toll? Worse? Point being, we don’t know. Anticipating the objection, the presenter said “we can’t build our way out of congestion” pointing to T-REX as a failure. Of course, if they honestly believed their data, they’d make one lane of the T-REX corridor an Express lane and there’d be love and unicorns for everyone. But they aren’t, so Express lanes must not be the panacea that they’re trying to sell.
I cornered one of the traffic guys and pointed out this “missing data” and how T-REX congestion was not a defense and he pointed out how much it would cost to make a T-REX lane an Express lane as an experiment. I countered that yes, that would be an expensive experiment. It wouldn’t cost ANYTHING (except loss in revenue – ding! We have a winner!) to just turn off tolls on the road they gathered their data from (36?) for a month and gather the "just adding a lane" data so they can have an apples-to-apples comparison.
At that point he started complementing me on how smart I was (I kid you not) and it became obvious that I was getting combustible by-products blown up my ass.
They just want the money, period.
Throughout the meeting it was repeated over and over that the Express lane is just one of many options, but in my opinion it’s a done deal.
O2
That sounds like a delphi meeting. You got steamrolled in other words?
I’m not fond of the toll roads but I live at E470 and Smoky Hill, as a result I spend $120 or so a month on tolls. In the summer my bill is usually a little over $200 per month from pulling my camper, the camper is $12 per rolling station.
There is no denying Colorado needs a significant infrastructure overhaul. Our state income tax is absurdly low for a state of our size and there are stringent laws regarding the state financing road projects which has resulted in the massive traffic issues we now have.
I’m not a big fan of increasing taxes but when it comes to highways we can’t have our cake and eat it too, the projects are expensive and the state has to get the money to pay for them one way or other.
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hurley842002
12-19-2017, 20:38
I’m not fond of the toll roads but I live at E470 and Smoky Hill, as a result I spend $120 or so a month on tolls. In the summer my bill is usually a little over $200 per month from pulling my camper, the camper is $12 per rolling station.
There is no denying Colorado needs a significant infrastructure overhaul. Our state income tax is absurdly low for a state of our size and there are stringent laws regarding the state financing road projects which has resulted in the massive traffic issues we now have.
I’m not a big fan of increasing taxes but when it comes to highways we can’t have our cake and eat it too, the projects are expensive and the state has to get the money to pay for them one way or other.
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Perhaps I misinterpreted your post, if so I apologize. Are you implying our state income tax should be higher in order to improve infrastructure, so you aren't "forced" to spend money towing your camper?
68Charger
12-20-2017, 08:27
There is no denying Colorado needs a significant infrastructure overhaul. Our state income tax is absurdly low for a state of our size and there are stringent laws regarding the state financing road projects which has resulted in the massive traffic issues we now have.
I’m not a big fan of increasing taxes but when it comes to highways we can’t have our cake and eat it too, the projects are expensive and the state has to get the money to pay for them one way or other.
Texas is a LOT bigger than Colorado, yet I pay $0 in state income tax. I reject any notion that income taxes are "absurdly low"
hurley842002
12-20-2017, 09:13
Texas is a LOT bigger than Colorado, yet I pay $0 in state income tax. I reject any notion that income taxes are "absurdly low"Agree
Texas is a LOT bigger than Colorado, yet I pay $0 in state income tax. I reject any notion that income taxes are "absurdly low"
How's the property and sales, etc. tax in comparison?
68Charger
12-20-2017, 10:28
How's the property and sales, etc. tax in comparison?
Sales tax for TX is 6.25%, our county adds 2% on top of that... so 8.25% total (that's the high limit of sales tax in TX), which is higher than some places in CO, lower than others
Property taxes are pretty high as a base- we have a homestead exemption on 1 acre (which knocks $25k in value off what percentage is calculated against), and other 19 have an AG exemption (we have cattle, and using the land for AG purposes drops property taxes significantly)... we're around $2900/yr, IIRC
Our county isn't really high compared to other (mostly Urban) areas... really have to factor property tax in when buying property- there was one place we looked at that was $13k per year!
So it really depends on your income- right now I'm definitely ahead, but when I retire a high income tax instead of high property tax would be preferable... but there's a senior discount on property tax, too.
ETA:
Toll roads and toll lanes are very prolific in TX... driving to/from DFW will be $2 alone... there are even toll roads with toll lanes!
Sales tax for TX is 6.25%, our county adds 2% on top of that... so 8.25% total, which is higher than some places in CO, lower than others
Property taxes are pretty high as a base- we have a homestead exemption on 1 acre (which knocks $25k in value off what percentage is calculated against), and other 19 have an AG exemption (we have cattle, and using the land for AG purposes drops property taxes significantly)... we're around $2900/yr, IIRC
Our county isn't really high compared to other (mostly Urban) areas... really have to factor property tax in when buying property- there was one place we looked at that was $13k per year!
So it really depends on your income- right now I'm definitely ahead, but when I retire a high income tax instead of high property tax would be preferable... but there's a senior discount on property tax, too.
ETA:
Toll roads and toll lanes are very prolific in TX... driving to/from DFW will be $2 alone... there are even toll roads with toll lanes!
If there are going to be taxes, I like this. It offers some control over your tax burden through consumption/ownership. I don't like the idea of property taxes at all but they aren't going away because "it takes a village."
Income taxes are insidious. They are punishing people for working and offer no control. It's perverse that we punish people for doing the right things and reward them for doing the bad things (e.g. living above their means, having kids they can't support, etc...).
I think it was $5.50 when we crossed a couple of weeks ago.
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Crossed today. It was $6 if you don't have an account/e-pass.
Rental car company had the usual admin fee if you use e-toll, but also charged an additional $4/day for the entire rental period if used only once, even if not used again. We stopped and paid cash.
Aloha_Shooter
12-23-2017, 21:17
There is no denying Colorado needs a significant infrastructure overhaul. Our state income tax is absurdly low for a state of our size and there are stringent laws regarding the state financing road projects which has resulted in the massive traffic issues we now have.
Yes, Colorado needs significant sustainment efforts on its infrastructure but this is NOT because of low income taxes. This is because the Denver politicians have spent state revenue on social programs and expanding the size of state government instead of maintaining the infrastructure. The decaying infrastructure gives them more ammunition to slander TABOR and argue for increases in taxes and fees -- which never go to what they were intended for ... sort of like the proposed toll lanes on I-25.
Texas is a LOT bigger than Colorado, yet I pay $0 in state income tax. I reject any notion that income taxes are "absurdly low"
Texas also has a property tax rate that is in some cases 10X the property tax rate of Colorado but in most cases 2-3X that of Colorado’s. I’ve done the math and on average Texans pay more to the state in property taxes than most people pay in property tax and state income tax combined.
Texas has toll roads. They’re very inexpensive compared to the toll roads in Colorado but there are also far more people traveling on those toll roads.
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Colorado is now on the national map. Denver is a big city and will only continue to grow. There are going to be a lot of issues with unpopular resolutions as a result.
The Colorado you knew is gone. That battle is lost. I moved here from California in 1998. I’ve voted straight party R since I’ve been here, unfortunately the rest of my family that came with me has voted differently and their votes have made a bigger impact than mine.
You now have a choice. You can hold your uncompromising line and continue to fight for what the state was and lose everything you remember or you can accept the fact that Colorado is different and find ways to preserve what you remember while adjusting to the views of others.
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hurley842002
12-24-2017, 06:44
You now have a choice. You can hold your uncompromising line and continue to fight for what the state was and lose everything you remember or you can accept the fact that Colorado is different and find ways to preserve what you remember while adjusting to the views of others.
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You forgot option C, get the hell out of this liberal cesspool...
You forgot option C, get the hell out of this liberal cesspool...
That option looks better every day
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JohnTRourke
12-24-2017, 13:22
You forgot option C, get the hell out of this liberal cesspool...
bingo
already working on it. (and i'm a native)
68Charger
12-24-2017, 15:03
Texas also has a property tax rate that is in some cases 10X the property tax rate of Colorado but in most cases 2-3X that of Colorado’s. I’ve done the math and on average Texans pay more to the state in property taxes than most people pay in property tax and state income tax combined.
Texas has toll roads. They’re very inexpensive compared to the toll roads in Colorado but there are also far more people traveling on those toll roads.
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I think 10x may be exaggerated, but it is higher- significantly if you compare lowest to highest.
In my case it was the other way around (I pay less in property tax here than I did in CO for income tax alone) , YMMV depending on income and the property you choose. Some comparisons made don't take expemtions into account
Sales tax depend on where in CO you compare to... some higher, some lower
Aloha_Shooter
12-24-2017, 20:05
Option D: Fight for the state's heritage and make the newcomers realize THEY are the newcomers who should be adjusting to the views of others.
Lost cause, the next California. This once great state has been lost forever. I see TABOR being repealed in no more than 2 more presidential elections. It only requires 50% to remove since it was enacted on prior to 2017 and the new rules.
From the DP: Colorado was once a reliable Republican win in presidential elections. In the 18 elections that took place between 1920 and 1988, Democrats won the state only four times. In the seven elections since, Democrats have won four times, including the last three.
I have 13 more years to go, maybe a little longer, before I can retire and kiss at least the front range good byevif not the entire state.
The problem is not money- it's use. Jon Caldera was discussing how RTD gets something like 60% of the tax money but has only 2% of the metro area commuter traffic. It's a jacked up racket and if they can't use the money they get wisely, perhaps they shouldn't get any more until they can figure it out.
I have no problem with RTD and busses. Adding reinforced wide shoulders is cheap. Busses can have flexible routes to change with demographics and population moves. No free rides, hard to skip fare. Priced properly can be cheap and self sufficient, even privatized. Bus lanes or shoulders could be used as hov/toll lanes in peak traffic.
Trains... very expensive fixed routes. Go nowhere you need and require further transportation to get to your intended destination. More of a monument than practical transportation system in our low density population. Easy to fare skip. To expensive to be self sufficient. Takes away real estate that could be utilized.
As for the I-25, it will be toll lanes. No other option is being considered. It would cost CDOT 2x to build without the private toll company floating the additional lanes. The environmental impact statement only included toll lanes. Adding free lanes would require another study delaying the project a year or more. El Paso county voters got duped into voting away their TABOR refunds.
I have no problem with RTD and busses. Adding reinforced wide shoulders is cheap. Busses can have flexible routes to change with demographics and population moves. No free rides, hard to skip fare. Priced properly can be cheap and self sufficient, even privatized. Bus lanes or shoulders could be used as hov/toll lanes in peak traffic.
I have no problem with a bus system being implemented in a major metropolitan area. What I do have problems with is when we pay taxes that are supposed to go to roads and transportation related infrastructure that are not appropriated wisely and instead go to predominantly toward transit. When 2% of the commuter traffic utilizes the bus/train system in the Metro area there shouldn't be 60% of tax funding going there as well. Look into the Independence Institute's "Fix our Damn Roads" initiative, it's calling for the money collected by the state to actually go towards fixing our roads, maintaining our roads, and other ROAD related expenses. TABOR is utterly toothless since Ritter enacted the "Road and Bridge fee" that went around TABOR (IE: No one asked our permission to bring about this "Tax" because they labeled it a "fee") that over the past few years has gone mostly to RTD pet projects while our roads continue to deteriorate. We wouldn't need to add a toll lane to I-25 if they actually used the money they already collect to fix the damn roads.
ETA: Here's the initiative text: https://i2i.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/2017-TRANS-Initiative-Final-c1.pdf
El Paso county voters got duped into voting away their TABOR refunds.
Not just the voters, but it sounds like the county commissioners got blind sided by it as well.
O2
JohnTRourke
12-27-2017, 12:12
Not just the voters, but it sounds like the county commissioners got blind sided by it as well.
O2
I'm sure they got paid too
follow the graft and corruption and it all makes sense
Speaking of rtd eating money. How about that A line....
Trying to look up using light rail possibly to get down to greenwood village. From mobile at least website is absolute aids. Surrounding web design is modern and pretty but maps available and supposed interactive map etc are about as good as something from 2001. Blew up map and it's fuzzy unreadable. Bus routes are decent since at least you always have cross street listed but for light rail basically had to juggle with Google maps to get anything done.
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