View Full Version : At least the right guy went down
glenncal1
12-07-2017, 13:51
Hope the deputy is ok:
http://www.9news.com/news/crime/deputy-fatally-shoots-suspect-after-foot-chase-fight/497580039
I used to live right there. Such a horrible neighborhood.
I just heard about this a little while ago. I know the deputy who was involved, I worked with him at the Jail when we were both assigned there. From what I heard as of around 12 he was still in the hospital, but no other word on his condition. Hope he is okay.
That's not Denver. I wish the article were correct.
When I lived there on my license the city was Thornton at first but when I renewed it the city became Denver. I think it's a grey area.
It's Thornton, but Denver is stupid and the address always auto fills to Denver online. It's annoying.
BladesNBarrels
12-07-2017, 17:22
Blame it on USPS
I live in Lakewood, but the Post Office makes it Littleton.
Really screws up sales tax calculations for everyone, including getting an insurance reimbursement.
The Insurance company accused me of lying on my application and almost cancelled paying me.
Some GPS systems use Lakewood and some use Littleton.
I've had mail addressed to Lakewood returned to the sender and they call me and tell me I don't know my own address.
Yep!
OtterbatHellcat
12-07-2017, 18:10
I also hope the deputy is okay.
I'll add that neighborhood has been crummy since the 80's...and my music teacher lives about 10 blocks east of the shooting. Where I lived at the time, it used the 80229 code, but it was actually Unincorporated Adams County, probably still is.
That's not Denver. I wish the article were correct.
Technically, it is (or at least used to be). Unincorprated Adams County. I used to live about 3 blocks from that intersection.
ETA: Didn't see OBC's post until I finished my reply.
OtterbatHellcat
12-07-2017, 18:16
[Beer]....
Great minds...
I hope the deputy has a full recovery.
KevDen2005
12-07-2017, 23:30
Not Thornton, close to, but not in the city
OtterbatHellcat
12-07-2017, 23:42
That sounds like a Masturbation Clause Minimum, or something.
lol.
Is 88th the boundary?
Kinda/not really. There isn't a straight line.
https://www.cityofthornton.net/government/citydevelopment/Documents/gis/map-catalog/city_bnd.pdf
Denver city limits start south of 58th (I think)
KevDen2005
12-08-2017, 08:12
Is 88th the boundary?
Kinda...it might as well be.
Everyone that lives in unincorporated Adams has a "Denver" address. In fact, now that I think about it when I used to live in Thornton at 124th and Colorado (80241) the mail always said Denver. It's jacked up.
Not enough information to conclude anything.
KevDen2005
12-08-2017, 21:29
Not enough information to conclude anything.
According to witnesses the deputy was in a choke hold by the suspect
A disturbance at an adjacent apartment which had nothing to do with the original call out.
Suspect tries to get away. Deputy attempts to arrest 'suspect'. Suspected of what?
Deputy lacks skill to physically control suspect, then uses lethal force.
No less than lethal force available?
A disturbance at an adjacent apartment which had nothing to do with the original call out.
Suspect tries to get away. Deputy attempts to arrest 'suspect'. Suspected of what?
Deputy lacks skill to physically control suspect, then uses lethal force.
No less than lethal force available?
It's only Friday. Could you wait until Monday to start quarterbacking this one? Besides I'm sure all that great media coverage you are reading is accurate, but I'm pretty sure even the media doesn't have the full story so I know I don't and I'm pretty sure neither does anyone else here.
It's Thornton, but Denver is stupid and the address always auto fills to Denver online. It's annoying.
I live an hour north/west of Denver. Anyone calling me , from my town, shows up as Denver. Wish all the silly subs could figure out where they they are.
It's only Friday. Could you wait until Monday to start quarterbacking this one? Besides I'm sure all that great media coverage you are reading is accurate, but I'm pretty sure even the media doesn't have the full story so I know I don't and I'm pretty sure neither does anyone else here.
No.
KevDen2005
12-08-2017, 22:42
A disturbance at an adjacent apartment which had nothing to do with the original call out.
Suspect tries to get away. Deputy attempts to arrest 'suspect'. Suspected of what?
Deputy lacks skill to physically control suspect, then uses lethal force.
No less than lethal force available?
A disturbance is generally police jargon for fight. Sometimes when the police go to calls other crimes occur in front of them. Even though they weren't dispatched to that call, they are still allowed to enforce laws that people didn't call about. Probable cause then existed for some type of crime and the suspect fought the deputy. The deputy gets choked which is lethal force justification. If you have ever been choked to blackout then you will understand why. I'll hand you a can of pepper spray then start choking you if you think lethal force isn't a justification for that type of fight. There is always someone bigger and badder than you are. And I'll top that off with someone wired up on meth or coke and tell me how much they care when they get hit by a fist or club.
hurley842002
12-09-2017, 07:08
Deputy lacks skill to physically control suspect, then uses lethal force.
No less than lethal force available?
Let me see if I understand this correctly... Because he is a cop, by default he's supposed to be able to physically control anyone he tries to apprehend, but if he can't (his bad, should have had more "skillz"), and is about to be choked out, he's not justified to use lethal force?
Seems you have an extremely flawed sense of reality here, and my opinion to you is, if you CCW, you should get some more training on the legal side of things, because your use of force knowledge is lacking...
KevDen2005
12-09-2017, 07:37
Let me see if I understand this correctly... Because he is a cop, by default he's supposed to be able to physically control anyone he tries to apprehend, but if he can't (his bad, should have had more "skillz"), and is about to be choked out, he's not justified to use lethal force?
Seems you have an extremely flawed sense of reality here, and my opinion to you is, if you CCW, you should get some more training on the legal side of things, because your use of force knowledge is lacking...
And the second you start teaching cops all kinds of different hand to hand combat techniques for every situation (which is impossible) someone will scream..."Militarization of the police."
Bailey Guns
12-09-2017, 07:37
Not enough information to conclude anything.
OK. But then...
A disturbance at an adjacent apartment which had nothing to do with the original call out.
Suspect tries to get away. Deputy attempts to arrest 'suspect'. Suspected of what?
Deputy lacks skill to physically control suspect, then uses lethal force.
No less than lethal force available?
Too bad you weren't there to show him how it's done.
OK. But then...
Too bad you weren't there to show him how it's done.
That was posed as a question. Take your time, read it again.
Let me see if I understand this correctly... Because he is a cop, by default he's supposed to be able to physically control anyone he tries to apprehend, but if he can't (his bad, should have had more "skillz"), and is about to be choked out, he's not justified to use lethal force?
Seems you have an extremely flawed sense of reality here, and my opinion to you is, if you CCW, you should get some more training on the legal side of things, because your use of force knowledge is lacking...
You missed the point completely, but I'll buy you a beer so we could talk and better explain myself.
I have been choked out to blackout, and quite frankly I would have dropped a nuke in order to get out of the situation.
The officer, hopefully, will make a full recovery. He's doing a dangerous job which I'm not suited for.
I'm sure he's a great person and family man. His life is going to be turned upside down, and psychologically messed up, for a long time. I'll be the first to support him.
My question does relate to lethal force.
In the last two years, two of my cousins each lost a child to unjustified use of lethal force by LEO (as determined by the courts).
So enlighten me, what is the threshold for use of lethal force by officers, and how are officers trained? Are they screened for psychological 'red flags' ?
Bailey Guns
12-09-2017, 14:53
That was posed as a question. Take your time, read it again.
OK...gimme a minute. Hmmm....
Deputy lacks skill to physically control suspect, then uses lethal force.
Yeah. I read it slowly and carefully. I'm still not seeing the question. I'm seeing a statement as evidenced by the period, not a question mark, at the end of the sentence.
Now, if that was a simple typo and was meant to be a question then a simple, "Oh, sorry. That was meant to be a question" type response would have made it clear what you meant.
KevDen2005
12-09-2017, 20:14
You missed the point completely, but I'll buy you a beer so we could talk and better explain myself.
I have been choked out to blackout, and quite frankly I would have dropped a nuke in order to get out of the situation.
The officer, hopefully, will make a full recovery. He's doing a dangerous job which I'm not suited for.
I'm sure he's a great person and family man. His life is going to be turned upside down, and psychologically messed up, for a long time. I'll be the first to support him.
My question does relate to lethal force.
In the last two years, two of my cousins each lost a child to unjustified use of lethal force by LEO (as determined by the courts).
So enlighten me, what is the threshold for use of lethal force by officers, and how are officers trained? Are they screened for psychological 'red flags' ?
We use a reasonable test based on the Supreme Court Case Graham V. Connor.
The long and short of it is this, would a reasonable officer given the same circumstances acted the same way. The courts have already determined law enforcement situations to be rapidly unfolding and that officers have to act within seconds with the information at hand. The media and the public rarely understand this concept.
Being choked (strangled is technically the more appropriate word) is considered lethal force justification because of how quickly it can kill you or knock you out leaving the ability for additional harm or deadly weapons to be removed from the officers belt and used against him or a third party.
Most agencies, if not all, require some type psychological exam prior to hiring or going to certain special assignments like SWAT.
Graham v. Connor,
490 U.S. 386 (1989)
Annotate this Case
Syllabus | Case
U.S. Supreme Court
Graham v. Connor, 490 U.S. 386 (1989)
Graham v. Connor
No. 87-6571
Argued February 21, 1989
Decided May 15, 1989
490 U.S. 386
Syllabus
Petitioner Graham, a diabetic, asked his friend, Berry, to drive him to a convenience store to purchase orange juice to counteract the onset of an insulin reaction. Upon entering the store and seeing the number of people ahead of him, Graham hurried out and asked Berry to drive him to a friend's house instead. Respondent Connor, a city police officer, became suspicious after seeing Graham hastily enter and leave the store, followed Berry's car, and made an investigative stop, ordering the pair to wait while he found out what had happened in the store. Respondent backup police officers arrived on the scene, handcuffed Graham, and ignored or rebuffed attempts to explain and treat Graham's condition. During the encounter, Graham sustained multiple injuries. He was released when Conner learned that nothing had happened in the store. Graham filed suit in the District Court under 42 U.S.C. § 1983 against respondents, alleging that they had used excessive force in making the stop, in violation of "rights secured to him under the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution and 42 U.S.C. § 1983." The District Court granted respondents' motion for a directed verdict at the close of Graham's evidence, applying a four-factor test for determining when excessive use of force gives rise to a § 1983 cause of action, which inquires, inter alia, whether the force was applied in a good faith effort to maintain and restore discipline or maliciously and sadistically for the very purpose of causing harm. Johnson v. Glick, 481 F.2d 1028. The Court of Appeals affirmed, endorsing this test as generally applicable to all claims of constitutionally excessive force brought against government officials, rejecting Graham's argument that it was error to require him to prove that the allegedly excessive force was applied maliciously and sadistically to cause harm, and holding that a reasonable jury applying the Johnson v. Glick test to his evidence could not find that the force applied was constitutionally excessive.
Held: All claims that law enforcement officials have used excessive force -- deadly or not -- in the course of an arrest, investigatory stop, or other "seizure" of a free citizen are properly analyzed under the Fourth Amendment's "objective reasonableness" standard, rather than under a substantive due process standard. Pp. 490 U. S. 392-399.
(a) The notion that all excessive force claims brought under § 1983 are governed by a single generic standard is rejected. Instead, courts must identify the specific constitutional right allegedly infringed by the challenged application of force, and then judge the claim by reference to the specific constitutional standard which governs that right. Pp. 490 U. S. 393-394.
(b) Claims that law enforcement officials have used excessive force in the course of an arrest, investigatory stop, or other "seizure" of a free citizen are most properly characterized as invoking the protections of the Fourth Amendment, which guarantees citizens the right "to be secure in their persons . . . against unreasonable seizures," and must be judged by reference to the Fourth Amendment's "reasonableness" standard. Pp. 490 U. S. 394-395.
(c) The Fourth Amendment "reasonableness" inquiry is whether the officers' actions are "objectively reasonable" in light of the facts and circumstances confronting them, without regard to their underlying intent or motivation. The "reasonableness" of a particular use of force must be judged from the perspective of a reasonable officer on the scene, and its calculus must embody an allowance for the fact that police officers are often forced to make split-second decisions about the amount of force necessary in a particular situation. Pp. 490 U. S. 396-397.
(d) The Johnson v. Glick test applied by the courts below is incompatible with a proper Fourth Amendment analysis. The suggestion that the test's "malicious and sadistic" inquiry is merely another way of describing conduct that is objectively unreasonable under the circumstances is rejected. Also rejected is the conclusion that, because individual officers' subjective motivations are of central importance in deciding whether force used against a convicted prisoner violates the Eighth Amendment, it cannot be reversible error to inquire into them in deciding whether force used against a suspect or arrestee violates the Fourth Amendment. The Eighth Amendment terms "cruel" and "punishment" clearly suggest some inquiry into subjective state of mind, whereas the Fourth Amendment term "unreasonable" does not. Moreover, the less protective Eighth Amendment standard applies only after the State has complied with the constitutional guarantees traditionally associated with criminal prosecutions. Pp. 490 U. S. 397-399.
827 F.2d 945, vacated and remanded.
REHNQUIST, C.J., delivered the opinion of the Court, in which WHITE, STEVENS, O'CONNOR, SCALIA, and KENNEDY, JJ., joined. BLACKMUN, J., filed an opinion concurring in part and concurring in the judgment, in which BRENNAN and MARSHALL, JJ., joined, post, p. 490 U. S. 399.
Page 490 U. S. 388
KevDen2005
12-09-2017, 23:43
And now Thedenverchannel.com has a new article about the mom of the 19 year old saying how the police shot an unarmed man.
theGinsue
12-10-2017, 10:57
Unarmed man my tailfeathers. The guy had 2 arms and was using them to strangle the officer.
Play stupid games, win stupid prizes and all that.
A disturbance at an adjacent apartment which had nothing to do with the original call out.
Suspect tries to get away. Deputy attempts to arrest 'suspect'. Suspected of what?
Deputy lacks skill to physically control suspect, then uses lethal force.
No less than lethal force available?
How many fights have you been in? Situations can be very fluid and change on a dime, where you could be an expert in [insert defense discipline here] and still get caught off-guard or make a minor mistake and they gain the upper hand. This isn't patty-cake we're playing on the street here, it's life and death, and the second you put someone in a choke hold you're applying lethal force. What less lethal would you recommend? Tazer? If he's close enough to execute a choke hold he's too close for a tazer to be effective. He's choking the deputy, which has lethal consequences for the deputy (even if he doesn't die, but loses consciousness, then what? The guy has access to his firearm!). This is completely justified.
You missed the point completely, but I'll buy you a beer so we could talk and better explain myself.
I have been choked out to blackout, and quite frankly I would have dropped a nuke in order to get out of the situation.
The officer, hopefully, will make a full recovery. He's doing a dangerous job which I'm not suited for. That's clearly evident by your comments
I'm sure he's a great person and family man. His life is going to be turned upside down, and psychologically messed up, for a long time. I'll be the first to support him.
My question does relate to lethal force.
In the last two years, two of my cousins each lost a child to unjustified use of lethal force by LEO (as determined by the courts).
So enlighten me, what is the threshold for use of lethal force by officers, and how are officers trained? Are they screened for psychological 'red flags' ?
Ah, the truth comes out. Because you had family members who were "wronged" by police, now your opinion of the entire profession is skewed. If you can't judge each situation without your bias, maybe you should refrain from commenting.
To enlighten you: When you attempt to kill or incapacitate a LEO, expect them to use lethal force against you. I would suggest reading up on the use of force continuum as used by most Colorado Law Enforcement agencies, we're trained to use one level higher than the level of force of the suspect. We're also trained to de-escalate situations if possible, but oftentimes, when met with physical resistance/force, you must meet that force with force.
Update that I can provide: The Deputy is just fine. He's doing well. Apparently the deceased was Native American, and so we got word that there is a group that intends to protest sometime today at our HQ.
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