View Full Version : Remington Bankrupt?
Shooter45
12-11-2017, 20:33
Own and used a lot of Remington's with great luck. Guess we'll see what happens.
http://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/2017/11/30/is-this-major-gun-maker-about-to-go-bankrupt.html
OtterbatHellcat
12-11-2017, 20:34
I think that would be a detriment to all Americans if true.
beast556
12-11-2017, 21:05
That's what happens when you let your product's go to shit. They did it to them selves.
That's what happens when you let your product's go to shit. They did it to them selves.
+1
Great-Kazoo
12-11-2017, 22:38
I think that would be a detriment to all Americans if true.
Bankruptcy possibly eliminates the lawsuits against them
This was part of the grab by Cerberus, snapping up a number of manufacturers and creating Freedom Group. That went well.
The initial investors were able to cash out. Now they have a lot more debt than the companies are worth.
Thanks Freedom Group. Seems they gummed up much of the gun manufacturing. After reading a puff piece in American Rifleman I though they might be turning things around in terms of quality. I dont think it happened. Oh well, lots of used one out there of good quality.
You can bet the corporate bigwigs got their offshore accounts stuffed full.
This was part of the grab by Cerberus, snapping up a number of manufacturers and creating Freedom Group. That went well.
The initial investors were able to cash out. Now they have a lot more debt than the companies are worth.
^this 100% ask bushmaster they got chewed up. That's when Windham Armory came to be, the old staff started up building rifles again. Correct me if my history is wrong guys it's been awhile since I've though about that.
wctriumph
12-12-2017, 05:40
My first gun/ rifle is a Remington and I had a 700 that was the best and most accurate rifle I ever owned. I had to sell it several years ago when times were tough and I really wish I had it back. I contacted the guy I sold it to but he had sold it when he lost a job. Every time I attend a gun show I have an eye out for it, it was special and I would know it anywhere. Remington will emerge from BK and we will still have great guns coming from them.
Bailey Guns
12-12-2017, 07:23
Remington isn't the only gun company facing hard times. But companies go through bankruptcy all the time. It's not like they're going out of business.
I have a Remington 700 that I bought new that shoots 2 inch plus groups. Next rifle I bought was a savage 10 fp. Half inch groups for half as much money. I've bought three savages in a row.
The Remington makes me feel like I bought an 800 dollar project gun.
Convenient timing with what must be millions in rebates pending.
Martinjmpr
12-12-2017, 10:10
Didn't Winchester go under a few years back, only to emerge under another name or another corporate shell?
Convenient timing with what must be millions in rebates pending.
I've been waiting for my rebate for almost 4 months. I don't think I will get it now.
That article is a bit odd... Black Friday 2017 saw a record number of gun sales BGC both at the NICS level and CBI here in CO. Perhaps Remington didn't reap many benefits from that, but I would hardly say demand for firearms has dried up. Maybe they're having a tough go of it, but all the industry folks I've spoken to have said that sales are up this year by comparison to last year- especially with the demand for Sig P320 (following the Army's decision- prior to the drop issue), and Glock sales are at an all time high. Also, a few are saying next year's SHOT Show is going to reveal some new products expected to be big sellers. The market is doing just fine. Perhaps some manufacturers aren't able to keep pace?
Martinjmpr
12-12-2017, 12:56
That article is a bit odd... Black Friday 2017 saw a record number of gun sales BGC both at the NICS level and CBI here in CO. Perhaps Remington didn't reap many benefits from that, but I would hardly say demand for firearms has dried up. Maybe they're having a tough go of it, but all the industry folks I've spoken to have said that sales are up this year by comparison to last year- especially with the demand for Sig P320 (following the Army's decision- prior to the drop issue), and Glock sales are at an all time high. Also, a few are saying next year's SHOT Show is going to reveal some new products expected to be big sellers. The market is doing just fine. Perhaps some manufacturers aren't able to keep pace?
I would guess that the types of firearms that are setting record sales are AR-type rifles and all sorts of handguns, mostly semi-autos. I don't know if Remington still makes the R15 but other than that, I can't think of anything that Remington makes that would fall into the "popular gun" category. The 700 has well documented safety issues, and I've never heard whether or not they finally resolved those. Either way, I would think the damage has been done based on internet reports, TV news hit pieces, etc. The smart thing for Remington to do, IMO, is to completely redesign the 700 and - most importantly - give it a completely new name so there is no association in the public mind to the old, dangerous 700's.
Bottom line, the bump in firearms sales is not likely to have helped Remington.
I have a Remington 700 that I bought new that shoots 2 inch plus groups. Next rifle I bought was a savage 10 fp. Half inch groups for half as much money. I've bought three savages in a row.
The Remington makes me feel like I bought an 800 dollar project gun.
FWIW, I have a stock 700P LTR that shoots 1/2 MOA with factory loads.
Remington's ass-raping of Marlin left a pretty bad taste in the Marlin lovers world. They're slowly getting better but there were a lot of turds produced.
Scanker19
12-12-2017, 21:26
Isn’t the 870DM (detachable mag) coming soon?
theGinsue
12-12-2017, 21:27
I've never like Reminton's branding they do on the right side of the slide on their semi-auto handguns - it reminds me of what Gunsmoke used to do. They may or may not be good handguns but I'll never know first hand as I have zero interest in owning one of those handguns that you can read the brand from across the street.
I've never like Reminton's branding they do on the right side of the slide on their semi-auto handguns - it reminds me of what Gunsmoke used to do. They may or may not be good handguns but I'll never know first hand as I have zero interest in owning one of those handguns that you can read the brand from across the street.
That is quite ugly... not to mention their sub-compact, the R51 is one FUGLY pistol. I still love my R700 though.
The R51 is a steaming pile, even after their recall and redesign. A real shame, as I liked the looks of the gun.
I had an R1 1911, and I didn't mind the stamping on the slide. It was a bit much, yeah, but not enough to bug me, like the Gunsmoke slides would have.
The R51 is a steaming pile, even after their recall and redesign. A real shame, as I liked the looks of the gun.
I had an R1 1911, and I didn't mind the stamping on the slide. It was a bit much, yeah, but not enough to bug me, like the Gunsmoke slides would have.
It's too bad too because I had such hopes before it's release & subsequent redesign. It's a great idea on paper but poor execution unfortunately.
It was going to be a little American PPK. Instead it was a PPK/Shit
UrbanWolf
12-13-2017, 16:44
Will probably become another Chinese/European owned company soon.
vectorsc
12-13-2017, 21:46
I think at this point a Pakistani made short sword has more hallmarks of quality than the latest Remington guns. This couldn't have happened to nicer folks.
GilpinGuy
12-14-2017, 09:20
Remington's ass-raping of Marlin left a pretty bad taste in the Marlin lovers world. They're slowly getting better but there were a lot of turds produced.
I did a lot of research before I picked up a Marlin from a forum member here, having never owned one before. There is a big feeling of Marlin stuff going to shit after Remington.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but what I found was that the first year or two, there were a lot of turds put out there. Then they got their tooling and QC back in line after the move and quality went back up. The lever gun I have was made in '10 IIRC and is a very well made, fit and finish is beautiful, and it shoots and functions perfectly. I friggin love it.
The hard core Marlin guys on the Marlin forums and such believe that anything without the JM stamp is total shit. Hardly. Maybe more desirable for resale value though.
I think at this point a Pakistani made short sword has more hallmarks of quality than the latest Remington guns. This couldn't have happened to nicer folks.
The problem with laurels is they make a horrible bed.
Based on the fact that all three of my top level executive and all three of my engineering contacts at Remington left this year...I would say they are in trouble.
The QC has declined in some (not all) of their product lines as well. They had some serious QC issues in some lines, others were minor. But being behind the curtain, it sure looked to me like apathy more than anything else. Bean counters over-ruling designers, marketers and engineers is never a good strategy from a health perspective. Yes, they built a new factory in Alabama for ammunition production.
All that said, the moves they have made in the past 5 years make them ripe for a buyout, which the owners may in fact have done on purpose. They are also well positioned for a buy and sell off of the profitable lines while liquidating those losing money. Also realize it is not just "Remington" but also Bushmaster, AAC, Marlin, H&R, Dakota Arms, Para, Parker, Tapco, and Barnes. Remington itself could easily be considered to be 4 different entities in how it is structured. Remington long guns are not going to cease production anytime soon. But some of their other lines I will bet get hacked. I am already seeing the price drops at distributor level in a few lines. They ran a 35% off parts and accessories sale over Thanksgiving week.
Isn’t the 870DM (detachable mag) coming soon?
https://www.remington.com/shotguns/pump-action/model-870-dm
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kidicarus13
12-14-2017, 13:57
https://www.remington.com/shotguns/pump-action/model-870-dm
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A 3 or 6 magazine, pump-action shotgun? [Smart] It's going to take a lot more than that to win back American gun enthusiasts.
A 3 or 6 magazine, pump-action shotgun? [Smart] It's going to take a lot more than that to win back American gun enthusiasts.
Did you not see point 3? It is driven by a heart of steel.
A terrible idea. Who was asking for this?
I'd have one. Probably make a big distance in 3-gun, says a guy whose never shot 3-gun.
I'd have one. Probably make a big distance in 3-gun, says a guy whose never shot 3-gun.
And guys who have never shot 3Gun have already brought them up...puts you in Open, and it is still slower than the M2s we use in Tactical/Limited. So if you like a gun that is going to handicap you significantly in the fastest division, sure thing. :) Most decent 3Gunners put 8 in their shotgun in around 4 seconds and we can load 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, or 12 as needed. With the 870DM, you get 3 or 6 rounds, no select load ability (needed) and are still slower. To me it is the biggest dud Remington has ever come out with and illustrates a one step back mentality.
Why not a belt fed (right to left feed) pump shot gun?
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/beleaguered-gun-maker-remington-files-bankruptcy-n847316
But it ain't about Sandy Hook or Trump...they have been on life support for a long time.
.455_Hunter
02-12-2018, 23:15
Who would have thought that buying successful gun companies, closing the original factories, firing 95% of the original workforce, consolidating all manufacture at one common facility and "streamlining" production with modern industrial techniques (MIM, matte finish, polymer parts) would NOT be successful???
That might never have been the point. I believe that buying companies, liquidating assets, then letting them close is a thing. I've no knowledge of this incident, just throwing that idea out there.
Great-Kazoo
02-12-2018, 23:40
That might never have been the point. I believe that buying companies, liquidating assets, then letting them close is a thing. I've no knowledge of this incident, just throwing that idea out there.
So you're not an economic Expert, just commenting like one ;) Along with this poorly written hatchet job of a story.
I agree, as i said many a moon ago. Once Cerberus Capital buys enough gun mfg and their subcontractors. They would slowly but surely pull the plug, with the end game of no more large U.S gun companies. Don't care what the "public" excuse is.
Well, I did major in Economics. Which means pretty much nothing.
Great-Kazoo
02-13-2018, 00:08
Well, I did major in Economics. Which means pretty much nothing.
Sew i see.
That might never have been the point. I believe that buying companies, liquidating assets, then letting them close is a thing. I've no knowledge of this incident, just throwing that idea out there.
So you're not an economic Expert, just commenting like one ;) Along with this poorly written hatchet job of a story.
I agree, as i said many a moon ago. Once Cerberus Capital buys enough gun mfg and their subcontractors. They would slowly but surely pull the plug, with the end game of no more large U.S gun companies. Don't care what the "public" excuse is.
Well, I did major in Economics. Which means pretty much nothing.
Voulchure Capitalist? :D
Regarding Economics, It is one of the best academic studies.
econ (and math) guys are ones who becomes fund manager, hedge manager, analysts, market technicians are econ guys with lots of math backing it.
I wasn't good at math, must be why I never did anything with that degree.
If you completed the pre-requsite & reqeuirements, it is good enough. :D
So you're not an economic Expert, just commenting like one ;) Along with this poorly written hatchet job of a story.
LIKE
Jeffrey Lebowski
02-13-2018, 06:41
market technicians are voodoo practitioners.
FIFY.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m fascinated by their charts, drawings, candlesticks, etc - but there is just no evidence for it.
Having said all that, I love me some MACD on charts.
Edit: I’m a life member of AAII. I love the monthly publication. Every time they give some technician an article I think, “I can’t believe they are giving this some ink” and then I’ll proceed to read the whole thing.
Great-Kazoo
02-13-2018, 08:30
Voulchure Capitalist? :D
econ (and math) guys are ones who becomes fund manager, hedge manager, analysts, market technicians are econ guys with lots of math backing it.
Some of them (not a blanket statement) also had a habit of spending time in prison or on the run.
and since it was lost on some
[Sarcasm2]
buffalobo
02-13-2018, 10:02
Not a surprise. Cerberus has been a poor owner/mgr(these are supposed to be the "smart" guys) and Remington has only brought losers to market recently.
Buying Para was a good idea? The R51 or RM380?
Rifle recall?
Cerberus should have tossed them onto the heap of history in 2009 after they piled on the debt and stripped what little profit they could.
UrbanWolf
02-13-2018, 10:20
Hopefully they will get a positive management and QC change and start making good guns again. Or maybe the design of R700 will be sold to someone who is competent at making good guns. Still love the R700 action, but you gotta be so careful when buying one nowadays just because how bad the QC has become, I have no confident when buying Remington products.
FIFY.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m fascinated by their charts, drawings, candlesticks, etc - but there is just no evidence for it.
Having said all that, I love me some MACD on charts.
Edit: I’m a life member of AAII. I love the monthly publication. Every time they give some technician an article I think, “I can’t believe they are giving this some ink” and then I’ll proceed to read the whole thing.
I tell people that just doing one analysis is just looking at one variables out of hundreds.
I once did a cockeyeball MACD drawing off of one chart and some guys were asking me how. Reminds me of some kids who just about to learn derivatives (calc, not contract derivatives).
Martinjmpr
02-13-2018, 16:53
So you're not an economic Expert, just commenting like one ;) Along with this poorly written hatchet job of a story.
I agree, as i said many a moon ago. Once Cerberus Capital buys enough gun mfg and their subcontractors. They would slowly but surely pull the plug, with the end game of no more large U.S gun companies. Don't care what the "public" excuse is.
Are they planning to buy up Ruger too? Isn't Ruger a privately held company?
If the US gun industry is in trouble it's because there's no more "panic buying" of guns and there is such a glut of guns on the market that there's no reason to buy new. Plus as others have pointed out, Remington's been in trouble for a long time.
Didn't Winchester go out of business a few years ago? And Colt, didn't they stop selling to the public and only sell to government contractors?
How many companies are making AR lowers? How many companies are making AR parts? The number is probably in the hundreds, if not in the thousands.
My point being that just because some of these old dinosaurs die off it doesn't seem like there is a shortage of firearms for sale. Yes, it's sad when a company with a heritage like Remington's shuts its doors (as it was with Winchester.) But life goes on and even an organization as big as Cerberus Capital couldn't choke off the supply of firearms in the US if they wanted to.
Some of them (not a blanket statement) also had a habit of spending time in prison or on the run.
and since it was lost on some
[Sarcasm2]
I had a signature of a guy who studied economics and business school. He recently went to prison for securities fraud.
Great-Kazoo
02-13-2018, 18:19
Are they planning to buy up Ruger too? Isn't Ruger a privately held company?
If the US gun industry is in trouble it's because there's no more "panic buying" of guns and there is such a glut of guns on the market that there's no reason to buy new. Plus as others have pointed out, Remington's been in trouble for a long time.
Didn't Winchester go out of business a few years ago? And Colt, didn't they stop selling to the public and only sell to government contractors?
How many companies are making AR lowers? How many companies are making AR parts? The number is probably in the hundreds, if not in the thousands.
My point being that just because some of these old dinosaurs die off it doesn't seem like there is a shortage of firearms for sale. Yes, it's sad when a company with a heritage like Remington's shuts its doors (as it was with Winchester.) But life goes on and even an organization as big as Cerberus Capital couldn't choke off the supply of firearms in the US if they wanted to.
It's more than that.
Here's an example of the many places that it's going with. Combined with places like FB that actively search and delete forums where firearm items, not guns but parts, are traded.
https://www.ar-15.co/threads/167098-Staples-refuses-firearms-business-check
What they cannot get through the federal legislature they do slowly in towns, states, business transactions etc. Sure some companies fail, however (IMO) there's bigger things at play on the anti-gun side.
CoGirl303
03-26-2018, 10:47
This is a big part of why America needs tort reform in the legal aspect. Companies shouldn't be forced into bankruptcy by frivilous lawsuits that seek to undermine the 2nd Amendment.
http://www.independentsentinel.com/untold-story-behind-remingtons-bankrupting-precedent-setting-lawsuit/
America’s oldest gunmaker filed for bankruptcy last week as it seeks to reduce its massive debt. There is an untold story here. A major lawsuit by Sandy Hook victims’ families against the company is meant to put the company out of business. It won, it will set a very dangerous precedent.
The Untold Story
There are a couple reasons for Remington’s woes. One is President Trump won and people are buying fewer guns, but another reason is the lawsuits meant to break the company.
Remington is being sued for wrongful death by the families of victims in Sandy Hook, although the company had absolutely nothing to do with the horrific crime.
It is a precedent-setting lawsuit. If the litigants win, gun manufacturers will be held responsible for the crimes people commit with their product. If they don’t win, the company will possibly go out of business over the costs of the suit anyway. It’s a win-win for gun grabbers.
The concept behind the lawsuit is flawed. It is like suing Williams Sonoma for a woman killing her husband after hitting him over the head with one of their pots.
If this legal doctrine gains steam, particularly at the Federal appellate level, those wishing to exercise their Second Amendment rights could be in trouble. Gun companies found liable for senseless and unforeseeable tragedies could be litigated out of existence by lawsuit after lawsuit.
This case is meant to greatly weaken the rights and protections of gun makers with the ultimate goal of putting them out of business.
Protections in the Law Don’t Help
The company’s lawyers said they are protected by a 2005 federal immunity law that protects gun makers from most lawsuits over criminal use of their products, according to a report by the Associated Press.
It doesn’t seem to matter. Remington couldn’t get the lawsuit thrown out. The judges are legislating from the bench.
While gun makers are free from liability in many cases, they are not if they knowingly transfer a gun to be used for criminal purposes or if they break the law.
If the product is defective they can be sued. That is the case in another suit against Remington. It was never proven that the guns were defective but the company had to settle due to costs.
Remington Is a Good Start in Destroying Gun Makers
Founded in 1816, Remington is one of the oldest and best-known gun makers in the world. It’s owned by Cerberus Capital Management, which plans to shed ownership once the bankruptcy is complete.
They tried to sell it after Sandy Hook but couldn’t find a buyer. Twenty-six people died in the terrible Sandy Hook massacre, including many small children.
Remington is headquartered in North Carolina. It makes a variety of handguns, shotguns, and rifles at its sprawling 19th-century factory in Ilion, N.Y.
Its products include the Bushmaster AR-15-style rifle that was used in the 2012 mass shooting in Newtown, Connecticut. The company has been sued by family members of the Sandy Hook victims.
The AR is being called a weapon of war but it clearly isn’t.
Toppling the oldest gun company is a great start for the gun grabbers.
The victims are blaming the gun company for the crime committed by an insane youth whose mother allowed him illegal access to guns. The reason for the lawsuit is to put gun manufacturers out of business. That is the story being ignored.
The company has reached a deal to give lenders ownership over the firearms maker, Bloomberg reported. Remington will keep on making guns as they work through the debt under bankruptcy protection.
Colt Holding Co. also went into bankruptcy in 2015.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
thedave1164
03-26-2018, 10:59
They were in trouble before SH and they continued to slide.
It seemed to me that they started the slide when they listened to the lawyers and put a friggin lock on the bolt of their 700's, put out the abortion known as the 710 and plastic trigger pack in the 870's.
My memory is a little foggy but it seems to me they were pretty close to the same time.
the SH lawsuit did not help, but it isn't the reason for their BK
Only case it mentioned was sandy hook which i believe had ended with the litigants offering a bunch of money.
The real story is quality has nose dived since they were bought out, multiple safety recalls and the disastrous r51 launch and relaunch. Ruger in similar conditions doing much better evenif everyone feeling post election sales pinch.
What's now known as "Remington" was formerly known as "Freedom Group" after numerous gunmakers were acquired by Cerberus Financial. It's more of a mismanagement problem than a political fallout.
The part of Colt that filed for bankruptcy in 2015 was the military contracts side of their business. They had nothing to keep them afloat after they lost the M4 contract to FNH in 2013.
[snip]
plastic trigger pack in the 870's.
[snip]
Can't be said enough!!! I'm probably around 500 rounds and couldn't get the gremlins out until I paid $100 for a metal group. Still don't trust that damned thing.
PSA: If you want a 870, get the police model. Used is fine. Spend your money on new barrel(s).
Can't be said enough!!! I'm probably around 500 rounds and couldn't get the gremlins out until I paid $100 for a metal group. Still don't trust that damned thing.
PSA: If you want a 870, get the police model. Used is fine. Spend your money on new barrel(s).
That's why I have the old model 870s with steel, sold off the Express model I had a few years ago.
That's why I have the old model 870s with steel, sold off the Express model I had a few years ago.
Smart!
The most unsettling sound I've ever heard is click when I expected BANG!
Smart!
The most unsettling sound I've ever heard is click when I expected BANG!
...or a BANG when you expected a click.
BushMasterBoy
03-26-2018, 13:22
The 1991 A1 was a work of art at a reasonable price. Your opinion may differ.
...or a BANG when you expected a click.
Depends on if you really needed the BANG.
Ah, hold on Mr. Home Invader, I've got a Remington product. I just need to remove the trigger group, brush out any lose plastic pieces (?), and adjust the shell latches a bit. There. Now where were we?
Yeah, the lawsuits are not the reason. A small part of the puzzle really.
Wolfshoon
03-26-2018, 15:19
Every company under Freedom Group/ Cerebus has been run into the ground, poor QC, material selection and crappy leadership. AAC was a great innovator and one of the top dogs in the suppressor industry until they made the mistake of selling out to freedom group. Kevin Brittingham, founder and main man in charge of AAC won a 14 million lawsuit against freedom/cerebus when they wrongly fired him and ran AAC into the dumpster. If I recall correctly the CEO of cerebus was voted as one of the worst CEO's in America.
Remington is a poor shadow of it's once proud self. My 80' and 90's remingtons are far more of a quality firearm that what is on the shelves at the store today, sad.
Tommy Miller didn’t help them out either back in 07. Brought a great company down Cabela’s this year.
Bank of America to Loan $43.2 Million to Arms Maker Remington (https://www.thestreet.com/politics/bank-of-america-to-loan-43-2-million-to-remington-arms-14580880)
Bank of America Corp. (BAC - Get Report) will lend $43.2 million to Remington Arms, an assault rifle manufacturer.
The loan was pledged in March before the bank announced its plan to pull out from financing companies that produce "military-style" guns. Reuters noted, upon reviewing bankruptcy court documents, that Bank of America could pull out of the agreement but could face legal consequences if it doesn't finance Remington.
[LOL]
UrbanWolf
05-08-2018, 10:43
^^^ What a time for them both.
So... don't buy remington to get back at BoA, they both go under. ... win.
wctriumph
05-08-2018, 12:14
The gov will only bail out BoA if they loose too much.
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