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TheGrey
12-13-2017, 20:09
Well, this is a new low- and wrong on so many levels!


https://www.ammoland.com/2017/12/westgate-installs-gun-detecting-device-without-informing-guest/?utm_source=Ammoland+Subscribers&utm_campaign=778da3ed63-RSS_EMAIL_CAMPAIGN&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_6f6fac3eaa-778da3ed63-20680805#axzz513QMZ6l6 (https://www.ammoland.com/2017/12/westgate-installs-gun-detecting-device-without-informing-guest/?utm_source=Ammoland+Subscribers&utm_campaign=778da3ed63-RSS_EMAIL_CAMPAIGN&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_6f6fac3eaa-778da3ed63-20680805#axzz513QMZ6l6)

U.S.A. –-(Ammoland.com)- (https://www.ammoland.com/)Back on October 1st, 2017 Stephen Paddock shot and killed 59 concertgoers attending a country music festival in Las Vegas from an elevated position at The Mandalay Bay Hotel and Casino. In response to this shooting, one hotel is now using a discrete radar system to detect guest that might be carrying guns without the consent or knowledge of being scanned by their guest.
In the city that is home to SHOT Show, more and more hotels are going to be installing a weapon detecting device called the Patscan Cognitive Microwave Radar made by the Canadian security firm PatriotOne Technologies.
This Patscan CMR Microwave Scanning tool scans hotel guest without their knowledge at the time of check-in or anywhere in the hotels using radar in the form microwaves.The first hotel that is going to be using this technology is The Westgate Las Vegas Resort and Casino. The Westgate opted for this technology because they can scan their customers discreetly without their knowledge. This evasive secret scan isn't an accident, or an overlooked sign in the hotel. According to the Westgate, they want to be able to scan their customers their customers without their consent.
WestGate bans all guns from its resorts (https://www.westgateresorts.com/terms-and-conditions/) with a few exceptions:

“Weapons Policy: Resort premises are private property. The safety and security of our guests, visitors, vendors, and associates is of utmost importance to Westgate Resorts. This policy is designed for the protection of our guests, visitors, vendors, and associates, and pertains to the presence of weapons on premises owned and/or operated by Westgate Resorts. Any and all weapons, including but not limited to, firearms, knives, and/or explosives, concealed or not concealed, with or without a concealed weapon(s) permit, are not permitted by any person and/or for any reason except as expressly detailed here on any and all premises owned and/or operated by Westgate Resorts. What constitutes a weapon will be determined by Westgate Resorts in its sole and absolute discretion. Sworn, on-duty State and Federal law enforcement officers whose agency has jurisdiction at the applicable premises, and military personnel, may carry any weapon. Resort Associates may carry a weapon with express written permission or as part of their assigned duties. Shotguns are permitted at Westgate River Ranch Resort for the sole and express use at the Trap & Skeet Range. Any and all persons who possess a weapon on premises either as permitted or in violation of this Policy must follow all applicable Federal, State, and local laws with respect to that weapon. Persons found to be in violation of this Policy may be subject to applicable Trespass laws. This policy applies to any and all on Westgate Resorts' owned and operated properties. The company expects that these individuals will comply with all provisions of this policy. Where Federal and/or State law or rules differ, the company will abide by the applicable standard.”
The scanning devices are so small that they can be installed at the front check-in desk, in elevators, in walls, or even the doors to the guest rooms. The Patscan CMR devices use the same technology that cars use for parking assistance, but in this case, it is used to violate the privacy of the hotel customers.
One of the selling points that PatriotOne touts is that hotels do not have to ask for consent or even let the hotel guest know that they are being scanned for firearms avoiding issues with a guest who does not want their luggage or person to be examined by the hotel. PatriotOne claims that no ones rights are being violated.


Not only can the Parscan CMR device be used to scan for firearms. It can also detect knives and other weapons. In fact, it can almost be used to identify anything that a guest might have as long as the hotel uploads the signatures into the database that powers the Parscan CMR.

I reached out to PatriotOne Technologies and was told that they only keep on file weapon signatures.
When I ask PatriotOne Technologies about the possibility of a third party signature file being used, they were unconcerned about that chance because they hold a patent on the signature files. When I asked about the patent being violated by unscrupulous parties, they seemed indifferent about that possibility because of the limited use of the information.
PatriotOne Technologies touts the fact that they believe privacy is not an issue since the device will only alert on a possible match. According to PatriotOne Technologies own data, there is a 6.2% false positive rate. This rate might not seem like a lot, but it does lead to privacy concerns for the guest that is taken into custody at gunpoint for a false positive.
According to Mark Waltrip, who is the Chief Operating Officer of Westgate Las Vegas Resort and Casino, the hotel will have a 100% scan rate for all guest at the Westgate. Waltrip states that guest knowing the hotel scans them will take away from the fun of Las Vegas so they will conceal the devices.

Waltrip, who is a concealed weapons holder, claims he supports the second amendment, but at the same time, he told Wired magazine, “I have a concealed carry permit myself. But, you know, on our properties, we want to maintain a safe environment, and we don't need guests bringing weapons on site. We really don't want that kind of surprise.”
Westgate Las Vegas Resort and Casino is the first hotel in Las Vegas to get the Parscan CMR, but according to PatriotOne the device be deployed by other major hotels in the second half of 2018.

Irving
12-13-2017, 20:22
Time to invest in a VRBO property near Las Vegas. I saw this coming a soon as this happened.

MrPrena
12-13-2017, 20:37
It is their property, and I will just go with hotel which does not scan.

Bigger problem is using microwave to scan the luggage and guest. It will not go well.

colorider
12-13-2017, 20:41
Never heard of the westgate hotel.

Gman
12-13-2017, 20:44
...and yet we still know very little about the incident that they're using as the stimulus for this response.

TheGrey
12-13-2017, 20:49
It is their property, and I will just go with hotel which does not scan.

Bigger problem is using microwave to scan the luggage and guest. It will not go well.

The other issue is that unlike a hotel with a sign in the window that states "No Concealed Carry Allowed", they simply scan the guest without their knowledge or approval. And it's not limited to guns. Got a pocket knife? Not allowed.

Great-Kazoo
12-13-2017, 20:56
...and yet we still know very little about the incident that they're using as the stimulus for this response.

Amen to that. I ask people when they start talking politics.... So can you tell me what you think happened to the vegas shooter and why has it disappeared from everything?

vectorsc
12-13-2017, 21:39
Fuck but this thing is a new annoying technology twist. I think it's time to do shot show somewhere else next time. Yeah, its their hotel. I just hope that they get sued into oblivion if anything happens that a concealed carry holder could have prevented. Shit like this is similar to cutting peoples seatbelts for fun and saying "drive safe!"

.455_Hunter
12-13-2017, 21:58
How about a nice metallic mesh weapons pouch?

Gman
12-13-2017, 22:17
A Faraday cage gun pouch?

Irving
12-13-2017, 22:41
The larger issue is that the entire point of the hospitality industry is to provide a home away from home, and with tightening restrictions, that is no longer the case. Vegas hotels have already moved to charging "resort fees" for stuff like parking and WIFI, but without anything beyond what you would expect at a "resort" or even your home. If I have to pay for amenities that I expect at ANY hotel/motel, and in addition I'm restricted on what I can bring, then what is the point?

Zundfolge
12-13-2017, 22:44
Its my understanding that Westgate is mostly time-shares ... so wouldn't this be more like apartments than a hotel? I didn't think it was legal to ban guns in apartment communities.

hurley842002
12-13-2017, 22:44
The larger issue is that the entire point of the hospitality industry is to provide a home away from home, and with tightening restrictions, that is no longer the case. Vegas hotels have already moved to charging "resort fees" for stuff like parking and WIFI, but without anything beyond what you would expect at a "resort" or even your home. If I have to pay for amenities that I expect at ANY hotel/motel, and in addition I'm restricted on what I can bring, then what is the point?Some of them have even gone as far as to charge for access to their pools during peak season (as my wife and MIL found out).

Irving
12-13-2017, 22:54
Its my understanding that Westgate is mostly time-shares ... so wouldn't this be more like apartments than a hotel? I didn't think it was legal to ban guns in apartment communities. Wasn't there a case about this within the last few years? I thought there was at least a thread on here many years ago, but I think you can ban guns. It might have been a situation where hiding was subsidized though.


Some of them have even gone as far as to charge for access to their pools during peak season (as my wife and MIL found out).

I'm not even a little surprised. Boo.

TFOGGER
12-13-2017, 23:04
I'm picturing the lawsuit (justified or not) when somebody has a heart attack and claims this device interfered with their implanted pacemaker...

CS1983
12-13-2017, 23:05
Seems to me that things like this are ironically pushing people further back while the machine moves forward, separating the people they need from being their consumer. It reminds me of the opening scene of Body of Lies, where Russell Crowe's character is laying out how the Islamic jihadists are harder to fight because they have divested from the technology needed to find them.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXaHbJhKWLc

At some point, the oversight gets to be such that we may not even send emails anymore, talk on the phone, or even stay in a fancy hotel (or move to such on any public transportation). At some point, a man will decide no convenience is worth his God-given freedoms (especially to self-defense).

Who, then, would be left to be the consumer of the machine which has separated from the wheat from the chaff? the chaff of society. The go-along-to-get-along's. The "government has our best interests in mind" types. Idiots, simply. And that makes such venues an easy target, because there is no longer the "what if this isn't a soft target?" question in the mind of an attacker. No, the venue itself has softened itself in order to claim a harder security posture. It's so insane it's either the product of brainwashed minds or purposeful to an end opposite of the stated objective.

But what of when this technology pervades all public and most private space?

That will be interesting.

KevDen2005
12-13-2017, 23:14
I would be very irritated about something like this and I would choose to stay somewhere else and not give them business (like they would care anyway)

rondog
12-14-2017, 01:27
...and yet we still know very little about the incident that they're using as the stimulus for this response.

And we never will.

KevDen2005
12-14-2017, 07:42
And we never will.

Well that's just very pessimistic. They will tell us.....




[Coffee]

GilpinGuy
12-14-2017, 09:01
So they alienated millions of Americans from using their hotels. Well done.

I'd love to see a dozen dudes walk in with a bunch of aluminum foil shaped into pistol shapes under their shirts and just walk around. Maybe the tech is good enough to dismiss that, but you get the idea. Maybe milled steel.

Relax, I know it isn't a good idea. It would be fun to be a fly on the wall and watch the overreaction though. Like when Derek Smalls had the cucumber wrapped in foil in his pants at the airport. [LOL]

Ronin13
12-14-2017, 10:42
So let me get this straight... they're scanning customers for weapons, without their knowledge, and disallowing anyone armed- to include off-duty, sworn LE with the exception of those who have jurisdiction in LV? They better have signs, otherwise that could be problematic for those entering and all of a sudden while waiting to check in two LVPD officers show up and ask them to leave. Guess I can strike Westgate off my list of businesses to patronize. I sure hope this trend doesn't start spreading.

Gman
12-14-2017, 10:49
Or a training 'blue gun' wrapped in foil.

My other take on this is that the hotel industry is going down a similar path as the airline industry. Their customers and the customer experience are not important. This should go well.

Ronin13
12-14-2017, 11:13
Or a training 'blue gun' wrapped in foil.

My other take on this is that the hotel industry is going down a similar path as the airline industry. Their customers and the customer experience are not important. This should go well.

Maybe it's about time for those who utilize hotels frequently to look into buying an RV?

Ridge
12-14-2017, 12:45
My other take on this is that the hotel industry is going down a similar path as the airline industry. Their customers and the customer experience are not important. This should go well.

I'd argue the opposite. People want to feel safe, like they don't have to worry about someone raining down gunfire on them from above, and the hotels will oblige.

All they have to do is put on their reservation sites that they reserve the right to scan clientele for "the security of their patrons" and that's all there will be to it.

But I've never heard of the Westgate, either.

BladesNBarrels
12-14-2017, 12:51
Never heard of the westgate hotel.

Hmm,
The world's great Las Vegas Antique Arms Show™,International Sporting Arms and Custom Knifemakers Show™ to be held JANUARY 19, 20, & 21,2018 at the Las Vegas Westgate Resort and Casino (formerly the Las Vegas Hilton).
Many of the SHOT Show attendees stay there also.
That should light up their scanners.
Wonder if the Balfours (the new owners of the Antique Arms Show) will have to seek a new venue.
Most all of the participants - table holders and buyers, return to their rooms with the high-end firearms they are trading, selling, and buying.
How will the hotel handle that?

th3w01f
12-14-2017, 12:54
Looks like this has been in the works for quite a while - https://www.ktnv.com/news/westgate-installing-high-tech-weapons-detection

Irving
12-14-2017, 13:00
The other issue will be people checking in with firearms, then being told they aren't allowed on the premises. Will they provide an immediate, and full refund? Of course not, because the no guns, knives, or antique all metal hairdryers wording will be buried in the agreement that nobody reads.

BladesNBarrels
12-14-2017, 13:02
"There's a division in the Marine Corps of special people that are specially trained to guard the embassies," Wynn told 13 Action News in September. "That's a whole division with separate base, separate training. There are almost 40 of them at every opening of my building, plain clothes, armed, on the look-out, changing shift and being relieved every two hours so they don't get bored."

Wonder if they take leave from the Marine Corps when they are busy guarding Wynn's casinos?
Or, are we as taxpayers ensuring his casino's have the whole division at his disposal?

Joe_K
12-14-2017, 13:23
"There's a division in the Marine Corps of special people that are specially trained to guard the embassies," Wynn told 13 Action News in September. "That's a whole division with separate base, separate training. There are almost 40 of them at every opening of my building, plain clothes, armed, on the look-out, changing shift and being relieved every two hours so they don't get bored."

Wonder if they take leave from the Marine Corps when they are busy guarding Wynn's casinos?
Or, are we as taxpayers ensuring his casino's have the whole division at his disposal?

I don’t buy that for a second.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

kidicarus13
12-14-2017, 13:50
"There's a division in the Marine Corps of special people that are specially trained to guard the embassies," Wynn told 13 Action News in September. "That's a whole division with separate base, separate training. There are almost 40 of them at every opening of my building, plain clothes, armed, on the look-out, changing shift and being relieved every two hours so they don't get bored."

Wonder if they take leave from the Marine Corps when they are busy guarding Wynn's casinos?
Or, are we as taxpayers ensuring his casino's have the whole division at his disposal?

Sounds like a 6 years old's imagination running wild to me.

O2HeN2
12-14-2017, 14:19
I would be very irradiated about something like this and I would choose to stay somewhere else and not give them business (like they would care anyway)
FIFY :)

O2

Ronin13
12-14-2017, 14:23
Sounds like a 6 years old's imagination running wild to me.

I agree... that makes no freaking sense whatsoever., this is perhaps the most outlandish thing I've ever seen in regards to that.

Gman
12-14-2017, 14:44
I'd argue the opposite. People want to feel safe, like they don't have to worry about someone raining down gunfire on them from above, and the hotels will oblige.

All they have to do is put on their reservation sites that they reserve the right to scan clientele for "the security of their patrons" and that's all there will be to it.
That would be an excellent argument...if he were shooting people in the hotel instead of using the hotel as a vantage point to shoot people at an outside venue.

Irving
12-14-2017, 15:28
That would be an excellent argument...if he were shooting people in the hotel instead of using the hotel as a vantage point to shoot people at an outside venue.

It doesn't matter, most people won't bother to differentiate.