View Full Version : LED lighting
I've decided that I'm going to add some LED lighting to a few rooms in my house; my living room, a hall way, and probably much later on, my family room. I'm doing some closets as well, but those will be just plug-in with a magnetic door switch, so no help needed with those. I've got an idea what I want, and I know I can just order stuff online, but I thought I'd check in here in case anyone has either done something similar and learned some things, or does this for a living and can provide some better insight.
I came across this video and am interested in these products (the aluminum tracks).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w31NbqrYH60
I really like the idea of the multi-directional track that will give me two lighting options (up and against the wall) for the living room, however, I may end up just going with a simple UP orientation. While my living room is not currently the TV room in my house, I plan on it being the TV room when I'm done, and glare on the TV is a slight concern. That said, I won't be doing anything more complicated then, maybe a dimmer. No colors, no fades, no sections, etc. While the corner lighting used on the floor in the video looks cool, I wouldn't use it on the floor unless I also had it on the ceiling. Comprehensive lighting with little to no shadow is a cool concept for a workshop or kitchen, but not necessary for what I want/need. I'm considering using it in the ceiling corner in the hallway.
The purpose of this thread is to inquire about specific knowledge of either techniques, products, or both. Let's get down to the details.
Living Room:
15'x13'x8'. There is no room for crown molding to help with indirect lighting, hence the product in the video. The size of the driver should be easy enough to determine by getting the distance, and specs of the lights before hand. I plan to make an access panel that will house the driver for easy access and code compliance. I'll have one switch, likely a dimmer. The norm in the remodeled houses in my neighborhood is to use can lights. I [i]could[i] do that, but between all the recently blown insulation and the labor involved, it seems like LED strips are the simpler choice. As mentioned earlier, I'm looking for a simple, one color (warm) solution that is operated by a standard light switch and is not controlled by a remote, or connected to the internet.
Hall:
9'x3'6x7'. Right now, the hall has a single bulb on one wall that only has a switch mounted directly to the fixture. It's ugly and inconvenient to use. As a result, the hall light gets turned on about once a week, if that. There is one linen closet, and the furnace cubby that benefit from light, or else I might not even bother. Here I'm considering the corner fixture from the video, but mounted on the ceiling instead of the floor. At one point I had some grand idea of putting a cut out into the side of the wall to use as an accent piece, but I'm weighing the effort vs the outcome of that particular project. You can see a rough idea I had sketched onto the wall some time ago to match the curve of some of the other doorways in the house. Side note I'm considering eliminating the curved doorways in the living room altogether, but a cut out would still look good here.
I know that I can, and have been, ordering light strips and drivers from Amazon for the smaller projects (coat closet and under cabinet lighting in the kitchen). Amazon even has several different aluminum track options. I'm curious if anyone here is familiar enough with LED lighting to know if there are better products (LEDs, tracks, drivers, switches, etc) that are better enough in quality that I should shop outside of Amazon. Please give me your thoughts and experiences.
For those that are way more techy than I am, I also ran across this video about TV LED back lighting that I found to be pretty cool. I'd like to see something like this in person some day.
This is a long video with a lot of extra stuff, so just skip to 9:30 to see the fancy visuals and 10:15 for the explanation of what it's doing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPJQLvw3U44&t=977s
I have a bunch of LED strips for various parts of the house and and some for work. Can't stress how much a good power supply makes a difference. When you start bridging and T'ing multiple strips together you will noticably see the voltage drop.
Is there some calculation to use for number of T's to help get the right amount of voltage? I assume you need to overcome both the run, and the losses due to splitting?
My led strip uses about 1 amp for every meter. I am using 5050 led strip at 60led/m (I believe)
That brings up a good point. I think all the LEDs I have now are 5050. Are there better LEDs I should be looking at?
hollohas
01-05-2018, 09:32
Check out Americanlighting.com, their 'Trulux' line. I use this stuff quite a bit in projects I work on. They have many different options for the aluminum extrusions/lenses including surface, recessed and drywall mount. The LED tape comes in a bunch of different options including all the parts a pieces you need. They are local as well. You can't buy directly from them, but they have many local vendors.
www.americanlighting.com/assets/_catalog_trulux2016.pdf
Part of the reason I want simple is because if I'm making this the main lighting in a few rooms, it needs to be operable by the lowest common denominator. I don't want issues selling, or renting in the future or the whole project will have been a waste of time and effort.
Realtor/renter "Hi, my kid was playing with the lights and now they are stuck on a red strobing affect and we lost the remote."
I want the most complicated operation to be a wall mounted dimmer switch at most. I'm not opposed to cool lighting, but I'll reserve that for other fun projects, and not updating house projects. I have color 5050s under my kitchen cabinets and am already annoyed at having to locate the remote just to turn them on.
Hollohas, definitely will check them out, thanks.
Check out Americanlighting.com, their 'Trulux' line. I use this stuff quite a bit in projects I work on. They have many different options for the aluminum extrusions/lenses including surface, recessed and drywall mount. The LED tape comes in a bunch of different options including all the parts a pieces you need. They are local as well. You can't buy directly from them, but they have many local vendors.
www.americanlighting.com/assets/_catalog_trulux2016.pdf
I have used these guys for a few hotel jobs I have done.
hollohas
01-05-2018, 15:13
One of the nice features of the Trulux LED tape is you can make it as simple or custom as you want. Want single color with nothing more than a standard Lutron wall dimmer? No problem. Want multi-zone touch screen wall controls, RGB color changing and mobile app control? That's no problem either.
I'm interested in what your set-ups are, but not for this particular project. Would you mind posting some pictures of the knobs though? When I think of a poteniometer, I picture something I found in a drawer at Radio Shack, but I'm sure they aren't that ugly now a days.
Here is the coat closet that is not part of the other major lighting. It's always been very annoying that there is no light in here, especially in the winter when it gets dark early and we actually need coats. I'm waiting for my magnetic door switch in the mail. This is just a single run of warm white LEDs running on a 12v 30 watt power supply. It's the perfect amount of light for a barely used closet.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/xPFS8wUTNBJr3xkMkWGeQjz0MZMzhsZbDHaMfHD1IK6N0p5U1a Rdjsmsp6fgWxmr-4MbrOP-M_aTbcJCf-qX9U1QMrLglhf2Mx1wQhB6zl0ZAe4nFH69jdaoNFMB0NeqOvwC ie75G_AOERd5FsKzr63fB2WVefLgod9X8pxdxu7o2HReewRzHo 88erH8bg-2wsf96LOMvo9sHO1YV7Cac2_6R226iZmYBBjtl7BFfDsA8qn_Q 4uaAcH7g1ft-X_Ks-qb65G9z-2BWk5CEDH2hqYt7um3sqh-psySpU1iHRYqGrW-qefJHS-cD3mD4pYbgyVZ7BE6tVCL0r3zrXn7p8blOASQEQNbVldp_j6ir BlC49o6PNmlap_SfN4yKnJJaVaaGL2isjDcWkXcb1W-n8E2VCjRaoMnOROUbDdiIY2TstcxzwJuZ02KyNYTKB8mhRoYVn _KKLxdmR0-xsaIZCa6yUGPZDLaUfY9BNVeM1g50KYATtAddbk0V4WZGWTdBV sq6zD2_iluoQjQF_aKuxgXKS-OrrYvCYksewAjBkDQdVh25YMfbRc459Kn4ne5G3cFotA_66TlR K1rtksnFrV7SO6xZlmZiMRJnVDwTk59xUW7PiGQ5CtzrUYY6FE Lxg8S5UvQ7tsgGnmQ4QbsOSDrZ2aIrBUpyw=w517-h918-no
Here is the product list in case anyone is interested.
LEDs: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01HRKVG7Q/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o04_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Power supply: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B011TDKRI6/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
90 degree connectors: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00J09R9OW/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Door switch: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0009SUF08/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Tape: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00WVK57A0/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
I installed an outlet into the closet to plug into, and I already had a power cord to use with the power supply. I had some similar tape from other LEDs that I used under my cabinets, but I have this roll coming for future stuff. The 90 degree connectors aren't necessary, but they are a lot easier than soldering, especially if you start messing with colors. Also I ran the strip from about 6" off the floor on either side of the door, and across the top and only had about 9" of LED left of that 16.4" roll.
You are going to want a small project box or something. That magnetic switch will only handle 1/2 amp or so, which is why it has a relay. You'll want to hide the relay somewhere.
Guess you could use a pop-in wall box and a blank or coax plate to hide it, but that is probably against fire code.
EDIT: the description on that item is a bit confusing. It says "what's in the box: Prewired 20-amp/10-amp Mini Relay Assembly". I have never seen a simple magnetic reed switch over 1 amp.
My magnetic switch worked about 4 times, then stuck and melted using about 9ft of LED strip.
Hmmmm. The reviews on that switch pretty much say that it works great, then dies really quickly. I assume that's from people not using it with a relay? I didn't use a relay, and had the same experience a few years ago on my pantry light. I recently tried it again and it seems to be working fine. Having had that experience, I tried searching online for a more robust switch, but could not find one. If anyone has a lead on something better, I'm all ears. On my pantry I had a pressure switch that I repurposed from an old refrigerator, but it looked crappy and I could never get it to stay in place.
With all that said, can you link me to an appropriate relay switch? For the closet (and pantry) I'd probably just stick on the wall since no one will ever see them. I think I actually have a few 12v relays in my tool box, so I may already have one.
Hmmmm. The reviews on that switch pretty much say that it works great, then dies really quickly. I assume that's from people not using it with a relay? I didn't use a relay, and had the same experience a few years ago on my pantry light. I recently tried it again and it seems to be working fine. Having had that experience, I tried searching online for a more robust switch, but could not find one. If anyone has a lead on something better, I'm all ears. On my pantry I had a pressure switch that I repurposed from an old refrigerator, but it looked crappy and I could never get it to stay in place.
With all that said, can you link me to an appropriate relay switch? For the closet (and pantry) I'd probably just stick on the wall since no one will ever see them. I think I actually have a few 12v relays in my tool box, so I may already have one.
I remember discussing your pantry. It was about the same time I was working on my LED lit truck toolbox. My reed switch from radio shack had the "." worn off of the packaging. I figured I was good, until it stuck and almost caught fire. It worked great, enough to take a couple pics. After adding the relay in circuit, all was fine.
As far as I know, due to the nature of the switch, it isn't currently possible to get more amperage through them. Simple solution is to switch the 12v side of that supply, then relay the bulk of the power of that supply to the strip. It can be done out in the open, but you would have a significant amount of wires showing.
You could stuff the relay and relevant wire in a 2x4 project box and screw to the wall, or stuff it into a pop-in (post build) box and use a modified blank plate or a coax plate to hide it.
And yes, the relay I used and am describing is the same 4 or 5 pin Bosch automotive relay you likely have laying around.
So power supply --> relay --> switch?
Usually when I wire a switch into low voltage DC I put the switch on the negative cable, can I still do that with the relay?
CobaltSkink
01-06-2018, 08:55
I have used this motion detector. I think it is also available in white.
There are two little potentiometers inside to adjust sensitivity and the time it stays on (IIRC).
I open them up, figure out where the pots are, and drill access holes in the back of the case.
In my safe, they are zip-tied to square zip-tie anchors. You could also use double-sided tape to mount them.
https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B013ECU460/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1
So power supply --> relay --> switch?
Usually when I wire a switch into low voltage DC I put the switch on the negative cable, can I still do that with the relay?
Yes, but you will need both + and - at the relay to make it function.
Using this as a diagram (ignore their notes)
https://www.online-led-store.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/650x/040ec09b1e35df139433887a97daa66f/i/m/image_PSZACCEPS131R-SPEC01-WEB.jpg
To switch using the negative wire:
Run your + from the power supply directly to the LED strip AND pin 86 on the relay.
Run your - from the power supply to the reed switch AND pin 87 of the relay
Run a wire from the reed switch (the NO or normally open contact) to pin 85 of the relay
Run a wire from pin 30 of the relay to the - on your LED strip.
This way, your reed switch only sees the power needed to switch the relay on and off (not much), while the relay handles the full power that the strip draws.
These are the relays I have. The 30 pin and 86 pin locations are in opposite positions. Am I correct to assume that I can simply follow your instructions by the numbers to wire them both correctly?
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/vteUlRbnsUdzF6a-hJhaNSWr8uCvMbkw-UjaUDO7UpBrWNQzfiCc76HM28yOE0YhJ72i2rERCvUFTw5Kkdc VF37-vEssXRuv6uwiFAIvU0gD66yvwFQQCRCe5yffrDfYjE1EI02oOM sbz0Ja62GPxP3-Z3FOdBAYbJe0dxvtWlQi6lg7hr2lGmCW7WwM_iiaP4WW-TXWB3dIwBovKbnGeuGeJBr4oFsyOMj7TKjxW6S9bstkUHsSRmw o6WUodaFYcv0-p9TzHK2gl65UVgh8BVPxuFzP_frEJQepFYcLn5n0axAoZN4zcL dC0EJZcDLY0auf-SHpQJL1gFQFevWtx5Twy4uC3StU5aYS8Ab-Huh2w7RYiyayqYMFqKU5t-CkgosRG4vks2FfA26YLlJmpbXtkekEKRbns9kdsOwcNnsCjEQl hOfbM0JD0lIFzGQP1QI2RMRY3YHijC38Ckj-fUbyluTX93levQeIQpg3A6EWRBPMrNv-hJLfNGtjkGxoA4OeQ2KzeRNZ0q09DdBAOWN5pFYYGjGfHu5U_i JHCJvzTwEHi7fP3OLNhdXXM8AqT6wwl_twAgWtpi9F8MCIPUu3 mN-yiJwEF3n0Np9tnkdVZWcZfP5R5QTyRC-6FPEF6IZpElD2VFAYLajPFFXGgsqEMJtN5I4taQ=w1632-h918-no
These are the relays I have. The 30 pin and 86 pin locations are in opposite positions. Am I correct to assume that I can simply follow your instructions by the numbers to wire them both correctly?
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/vteUlRbnsUdzF6a-hJhaNSWr8uCvMbkw-UjaUDO7UpBrWNQzfiCc76HM28yOE0YhJ72i2rERCvUFTw5Kkdc VF37-vEssXRuv6uwiFAIvU0gD66yvwFQQCRCe5yffrDfYjE1EI02oOM sbz0Ja62GPxP3-Z3FOdBAYbJe0dxvtWlQi6lg7hr2lGmCW7WwM_iiaP4WW-TXWB3dIwBovKbnGeuGeJBr4oFsyOMj7TKjxW6S9bstkUHsSRmw o6WUodaFYcv0-p9TzHK2gl65UVgh8BVPxuFzP_frEJQepFYcLn5n0axAoZN4zcL dC0EJZcDLY0auf-SHpQJL1gFQFevWtx5Twy4uC3StU5aYS8Ab-Huh2w7RYiyayqYMFqKU5t-CkgosRG4vks2FfA26YLlJmpbXtkekEKRbns9kdsOwcNnsCjEQl hOfbM0JD0lIFzGQP1QI2RMRY3YHijC38Ckj-fUbyluTX93levQeIQpg3A6EWRBPMrNv-hJLfNGtjkGxoA4OeQ2KzeRNZ0q09DdBAOWN5pFYYGjGfHu5U_i JHCJvzTwEHi7fP3OLNhdXXM8AqT6wwl_twAgWtpi9F8MCIPUu3 mN-yiJwEF3n0Np9tnkdVZWcZfP5R5QTyRC-6FPEF6IZpElD2VFAYLajPFFXGgsqEMJtN5I4taQ=w1632-h918-no
Looks like the one on the left is exactly as I assumed, so that one is good.
Right one, i would need to see a bit more on. There may be a diagram on the top...
Edit: if you want to drive a few miles, I can produce a couple of relays with plugs and pigtails. Will be around 15 miles east of you this weekend.
Yep, here it is.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/tuFYC0hxUDbXmjh04l_NctN9KztJvcfSYVeT1lCOaTks0FScw3 GTVqs_MVexxELHJfujC8pOgMLtmC4kV6gARRXEM-CDgvqWGNFMdv7MOsC0ITYvUpJrSTqANU07ncRPMW6DEy5DuZ45 HiiJJJYMEW3t8WayfMOC4Onfumea0-P61yiRlJBIQjohdo9Y2RlNjUsCQq-PP309eXkW8kLKUgsztceN7KNFFwqVl9U9Eer_O4KyB3gdGXP5n 4p8izIMutbSifnbZKrYW47RGQ43T_aOmthV6ubXDf-AXw1OGtarj0OR-3xOYyieLHu-5B5ADIyp4kMtjW0WzK5vMWrhiear97wW_iLDJCsdq3saKQdIQs lNGp0JhxQzNUiQ9-tYFzZ4Nyl6Vvr8EdC1O7JlI-rm2NU9o6G1ZddLgtWSKAaQPEMSqvT74A-hFU0kGSvuRlJ5J0tuSWAOOdSw-YSnnP6goXzpFQvrCbaZfRk282Byf4wBrI--jKbMBSimimOILnhygsLSChyMggB8IxLnNBtFO0DiPknHeIIM9Z npIn7dS26e0VQ3PqLp_VHGPvK0Omgc00AV_oA_OGUCe-J7K_zXIaFoqUWmXzq52hYrsj78Z2HoPHHGVtghtjyeeIgW_1Gj hRgq5zylLL-xg3XMZZDVwmrNUw-5aw=w1632-h918-no
Yep, here it is.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/tuFYC0hxUDbXmjh04l_NctN9KztJvcfSYVeT1lCOaTks0FScw3 GTVqs_MVexxELHJfujC8pOgMLtmC4kV6gARRXEM-CDgvqWGNFMdv7MOsC0ITYvUpJrSTqANU07ncRPMW6DEy5DuZ45 HiiJJJYMEW3t8WayfMOC4Onfumea0-P61yiRlJBIQjohdo9Y2RlNjUsCQq-PP309eXkW8kLKUgsztceN7KNFFwqVl9U9Eer_O4KyB3gdGXP5n 4p8izIMutbSifnbZKrYW47RGQ43T_aOmthV6ubXDf-AXw1OGtarj0OR-3xOYyieLHu-5B5ADIyp4kMtjW0WzK5vMWrhiear97wW_iLDJCsdq3saKQdIQs lNGp0JhxQzNUiQ9-tYFzZ4Nyl6Vvr8EdC1O7JlI-rm2NU9o6G1ZddLgtWSKAaQPEMSqvT74A-hFU0kGSvuRlJ5J0tuSWAOOdSw-YSnnP6goXzpFQvrCbaZfRk282Byf4wBrI--jKbMBSimimOILnhygsLSChyMggB8IxLnNBtFO0DiPknHeIIM9Z npIn7dS26e0VQ3PqLp_VHGPvK0Omgc00AV_oA_OGUCe-J7K_zXIaFoqUWmXzq52hYrsj78Z2HoPHHGVtghtjyeeIgW_1Gj hRgq5zylLL-xg3XMZZDVwmrNUw-5aw=w1632-h918-no
So, the numbers appear to correlate, but the positions dont. Following my posted numbers should work.
See my edit above.
Edit: if you want to drive a few miles, I can produce a couple of relays with plugs and pigtails. Will be around 15 miles east of you this weekend.
Thanks for the offer, but I can wire it up. Will give me something to do tomorrow.
Thanks for the offer, but I can wire it up. Will give me something to do tomorrow.
Cool. Offer stands. We will be just on the other side of DIA on 120th.
I had some relays from a remote start install that can be repurposed. Typical 30 amp relay like your left one, with a plug and pigtail.
Update: The quality of LED light strips I was looking into from American Lighting run about $150 per 16 feet for kits. That'd put what I wanted to do in my living room beyond $600. I'm not opposed to paying for quality, and was very impressed with the offerings from American Lighting, but I'd never see the return in the investment, especially since I'm not confident that it would be considered "standard" in the near future. New plan is just a centrally located LED light that is bright enough to adequately light the room. I found this: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B075XKB4ZV/_encoding=UTF8?coliid=I2OLBFMP9N4NJK&colid=22J6ZZ346K3BD&psc=1 which matches the style of the light in the master bedroom. I like this one because it has a larger footprint, but isn't too deep, AND is rated at 3200 lumens. The room is only 15'x13, so not huge, but any extra light spilling into the adjoining entryway (no light) and hallway would be welcome.
My new challenge is that I want this light on a 3-way dimmer. I found 3-way LED dimmers, but am running into some contrasting information. I found this 2-pack of dimmer switches: https://www.amazon.com/Enerlites-Location-Dimmable-Incandescent-Halogen/dp/B01IIKA4NG/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8&tag=pda0fc-20. However, after browsing through all the questions and reviews it seems like you can only have ONE dimmer switch, which makes sense. Selling in a 2-pack can be misleading to the layman like myself. So am I correct in thinking that I'll need two 3-way switches, but only one of them can be a dimmer?
I have a similar light in the mud room that I got from costco.
For light dimming they make led lamps with remotes that will dim them. The remote iis not part of the wall switch.
I tried the ac dimmer switch for leds with a lamp and had bad results. Either noise or bad light quality.
I think the remote type dimming light us the way to go.
That reminds me the daughters room needs a new cieling light.
I've got dimmers (Lutron) on five LED lights now and they have been doing well. Some lights have some buzzing, but I think it's the actual light, and not the dimmer. In any case, it's never been loud enough to bother me in any of the rooms.
I just used these under the cabinets kitchen. There are tabs on the end to add another strand. Really liking them and the light. Comes with a dimmer switch. Probably going to add them around my center island too.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00HSF64JG/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1364/13700547/24603363/413774256.jpg
These are more money but like the accessories.
http://www.leevalley.com/us/hardware/page.aspx?cat=3,70322&p=70323
http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=71702&cat=1,43349
Thanks for new links to look at. My hall light is a sconce that I really don't like. It is a scone because there is duct work immediately above that entire ceiling. Sooooo some sort of LED strip in a track is still on the table for the hallway.
Concerning a 3-way with a dimmer, does it matter to which switch I run the power? Specifically, can I run the power to the non-dimmer 3-way?
Thank you 00tec, I hooked up the relay to one of my doors tonight. Everything works great and I like the positive click of the relay.
Had to run a wire from NC to 85.
As asmo pointed out in post #2, power supply is important. I figured I didn't need much and only went with a 30v and like he said, you can easily see the difference from one end to the next. Look at the picture in post #15 and you can see the left is darker. For this coat closet it doesn't matter, but for anyone doing a more visible project, definitely run the numbers on your power supply. Thanks everyone. The 3-way with a dimmer will go in sometime this week, hopefully tomorrow.
Okay, for LED lights like this: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B075XKB4ZV/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 (and the Hampton Bay equivalent sold at Home Depot) they require a 0-10v dimmer switch. If you look at the pictures in the link, on the back of the fixture you can see the regular black/white/ground wires, with an additional grey and purple wire. These are the wires for the dimmer. The guys at Home Depot told me to just cap off those wires and use a regular LED dimmer switch. I don't think that will work, so plan on returning the dimmer I bought this morning.
Now, in addition to needing a 0-10v LED dimmer, I also need one that is 3-way, which makes it considerably more difficult to find. The closest I could find on Amazon was this one: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00SA9BEJO/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
which is stupid expensive for a switch. It's not the style I want, but the only correct dimmer in white, which is unfortunately a bigger deal than the style of the dimmer. I applied for the Amazon cash-back card (which I was planning on doing anyway) to get an instant $70 off, so I could get this dumb switch for free.
On the bright side, now I get to get back up into my freshly insulated attic and tramp all over again to run even more wires. The fun never ends.
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