View Full Version : Denver Bump Stock / Binary Trigger / Mag Ban
Didn't see it posted anywhere so thought I would start a thread...
Denver councilman proposes ban on bump stocks for semiautomatic guns in response to Las Vegas massacre
https://www.denverpost.com/2017/12/29/councilman-proposes-bump-stock-ban/
It also would modify the magazine capacity limit to conform with a four-year-old state law. Denver’s assault weapons ban set the magazine capacity limit at 20 rounds, but in 2013 the state legislature passed a 15-round limitation for magazines...
Doesn't appear to be any grandfathering unlike the state ban which hardly makes it conforming.
What happens if someone is caught in Denver with a 20 round PMag which was in his possession prior to July 1, 2013?
Seems to me there needs to be a reckoning on federal/state/local supremacy. Funny how that selectively works in certain people's favor. Meanwhile, the casual violence we see every day in Denver is not a problem for the shitty council.
Will1776
01-04-2018, 12:19
Ugh [facepalm]
SamuraiCO
01-04-2018, 13:25
The criminal element in Denver are sweating. What will they use to commit their crimes now?
The stupidity from the nanny state is never ending. Prime example of the hypocrisy from the left when they state "sensible gun laws", "background loophole" etc are never enough and it all leads to banning then confiscation.
Another solution to a nonexistent problem. Once again, the Denver City Council is rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic...
.455_Hunter
01-04-2018, 13:36
I asked this question here before and got the "don't worry about it" response....
Are non-Denver residents in legal jeopardy if they are driving through town or stopping with "high capacity magazines" in their vehicle?
I asked this question here before and got the "don't worry about it" response....
Are non-Denver residents in legal jeopardy if they are driving through town or stopping with "high capacity magazines" in their vehicle?
Repeat after me "I refuse to consent to any searches without probable cause or a warrant."
What they don't know you have can't hurt you. Besides, I'm pretty sure DPD has much bigger fish to fry than someone driving through their city with a dangerous "High capacity magazine" that is otherwise doing nothing wrong.
buffalobo
01-04-2018, 13:55
Quote by Councilmoron Espinoza -
“I’m under no illusion that if somebody is hell-bent on committing a heinous crime, they could both have larger magazines and modify their weapon,” he said, by skirting the law or buying outside the city. “But that said, the only people in the city and county of Denver that should have that kind of firepower are law enforcement and trained officials."
This rule will change nothing but I still don't want you to have it cause I am snowflake power monger who can't wait til everyone is disarmed so I can do whatever I want.
Crooked, stupid, disingenuous totalitarian scumbag.
I hear DPD is getting K9 units trained to smell magazines with a capacity above 15 rounds. They retrained the dogs they used to use for detecting marijuana.
[Sarcasm2]
Quote by Councilmoron Espinoza -
“I’m under no illusion that if somebody is hell-bent on committing a heinous crime, they could both have larger magazines and modify their weapon,” he said, by skirting the law or buying outside the city. “But that said, the only people in the city and county of Denver that should have that kind of firepower are law enforcement and trained officials."
This rule will change nothing but I still don't want you to have it cause I am snowflake power monger who can't wait til everyone is disarmed so I can do whatever I want.
Crooked, stupid, disingenuous totalitarian scumbag.
I wonder how many shitty councilpersons are felons?
Bold part makes it's own Miller argument.
I asked this question here before and got the "don't worry about it" response....
Are non-Denver residents in legal jeopardy if they are driving through town or stopping with "high capacity magazines" in their vehicle?
Good thread on that here..
https://www.ar-15.co/threads/42017-30-Rnd-magazine-no-go-in-Denver
If you can find 38-130 in this mess of statist drivel...
https://library.municode.com/co/denver/codes/code_of_ordinances?nodeId=TITIIREMUCO_CH38OFMIPR_A RTIVOFAGPUORSA_DIV2WEMI
...there are several affirmative defenses listed...
(3)
It shall be an affirmative defense to charges brought under this section that the transportation of an assault weapon:
(a)
Is through the city by a nonresident who is in legal possession of an assault weapon; or
(b)
Is by a person carrying a permit issued under subsection (f) and the transportation is for one (1) of the following purposes:
i.
In aid of the civil power when thereto legally summoned;
ii.
To a bona fide hunting trip for wild game, or to a legitimate sporting use of such weapon, including shooting matches or target trap or skeet shooting. All weapons carried for such purposes shall be unloaded;
iii.
While transporting such weapon to or from a place for sale outside the city or for repair. All weapons carried for such purposes shall be unloaded at all times;
iv.
As a member of the armed forces of a state or of the federal government while engaged in the lawful performance of duty;
v.
In conjunction with moving personal property, including such weapon, from an old residence to a new residence. All weapons carried for such purposes shall be unloaded at all times.
It also just occurred to me this puts some CCW choices in jeopardy. At 21 rounds, just about any pistol was okay for CCW. But now a pistol like the G17 would be verboten. I guess that's no different from the state ban, but for a lot of CCWs who have been carrying for years, it might matter.
For the children.
hurley842002
01-04-2018, 14:31
I have a feeling it won't be long until Colorado restricts even further to a 10 round limit in order to match their sister state CA...
Sent from my XT1030 using Tapatalk
I have a feeling it won't be long until Colorado restricts even further to a 10 round limit in order to match their sister state CA...
Sent from my XT1030 using Tapatalk
I have this feeling too. Denver is awful, and the fact that they oftentimes dictate to the rest of the state is not only terrifying, it's also very disappointing.
Isn't there a state law saying locals can't have more restrictive gun laws that the state. The only exception were Denver laws already in place?
Fvck Denver and this state. In am tossing a 30 rounder in the trunk out of spite.
Great-Kazoo
01-04-2018, 23:21
Isn't there a state law saying locals can't have more restrictive gun laws that the state. The only exception were Denver laws already in place?
Fvck Denver and this state. In am tossing a 30 rounder in the trunk out of spite.
Is that a taxpayer subsidized mag?
Isn't there a state law saying locals can't have more restrictive gun laws that the state. The only exception were Denver laws already in place?
Fvck Denver and this state. In am tossing a 30 rounder in the trunk out of spite.
JB Weld one to your car as a hood ornament. Let us know what happens. I'm guessing nothing just like the state mag ban.
Actual enforcement would snare too many professional dim voters.
kidicarus13
01-05-2018, 09:55
UPDATE:
An ordinance banning bump stock firing mechanisms passed Denver’s SAFEHOUSE committee Wednesday (Jan 3) and will now go before the full Denver City Council.
The initial hearing before the Denver City Council will be Jan. 16. The second hearing is scheduled for Jan. 22.
Violation of the ordinance will carry a maximum fine of $999 and up to 180 days in jail.
Isn't there a state law saying locals can't have more restrictive gun laws that the state. The only exception were Denver laws already in place?
Fvck Denver and this state. In am tossing a 30 rounder in the trunk out of spite.
Ten or so years ago a progun group, I forget who, sent out a letter. It had the statute and a note from a lawyer. It used to be a no no to even go through Denver with standard capacity mags. Though I think it never much mattered. Either way, I wish we had the PR the homeless folks have. They would embrace us, and we could do no wrong.
CoGirl303
01-14-2018, 14:10
Meanwhile, the casual violence we see every day in Denver is not a problem for the shitty council.
Does this surprise you? These are the same people who think blowing $14 Million on a stupid electronic super-sized welcome sign by the airport is somehow more important than fixing all the potholes and crumbling roads in and around the city.
Does this surprise you? These are the same people who think blowing $14 Million on a stupid electronic super-sized welcome sign by the airport is somehow more important than fixing all the potholes and crumbling roads in and around the city.
Not to disappoint, but the airport is self sufficient. Tax money is no longer going to build or rebuild infrastructure. Airport income from fees, tolls and parking can not be used for anything other the airport.
CoGirl303
01-14-2018, 15:27
Not to disappoint, but the airport is self sufficient. Tax money is no longer going to build or rebuild infrastructure. Airport income from fees, tolls and parking can not be used for anything other the airport.
well that's good to know. I thought the city of Denver was funding the sign.
FromMyColdDeadHand
01-14-2018, 22:50
Does anyone have a link to the actual verbiage?
Thanks again bumpstock, short-bus morons.
When even a CA judge throws a flag at a magazine ban...
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/06/30/federal-judge-blocks-new-california-high-capacity-magazine-ban-but-fight-looms.html
well that's good to know. I thought the city of Denver was funding the sign.
Panasonic was going to pay for it and put ads on the screen. The FAA, who btw has too much controll over the DIA property, said no after the project was started. DIA can only advertise businesses housed in the airport.
The ramps from tower to westbound were also not allowed. DIA finally convinced the FAA to allow them since most would head eastbound, then uturn on E470.
The hoops the DIA engineers have to jump through are insane. You would think the could follow CDOT standards for road building, but nope, FAA rules and standards.
Does anyone have a link to the actual verbiage?
Thanks again bumpstock, short-bus morons.
When even a CA judge throws a flag at a magazine ban...
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/06/30/federal-judge-blocks-new-california-high-capacity-magazine-ban-but-fight-looms.html
This is going to continue no matter what the gun community does/produces. Could be a bump stock, could be a "shoulder thing that goes up." Never forget the fascination with bayonet lugs circa 1994. To my knowledge no one has ever been killed by a bayo lug.
We are country of 320,000,000 humans with a Lib dominated media all but advertising mass shootings with scary black rifles. If you're mental and want to be important, the media tells you exactly what to do to become relevant.
Our only solution was to vote correctly. We (as a society) didn't. Gun bans are just the start!
One small glimmer of hope is antifa realizing they need easy access to guns to fight the facist right in their coming civil war.
CoGirl303
01-15-2018, 14:59
One small glimmer of hope is antifa realizing they need easy access to guns to fight the facist right in their coming civil war.
Half of them will be too scared to pick one up, let alone aim it and pull the trigger.
BPTactical
01-15-2018, 20:50
Half of them will be too scared to pick one up, let alone aim it and pull the trigger.
Never over / under estimate your opposition.
I think they are under estimating.
BTW - Hi cap mag’s through Denver is like MJ in the U.S. which are both on the books as illegal.
Isn't there a state law saying locals can't have more restrictive gun laws that the state. The only exception were Denver laws already in place?
Fvck Denver and this state. In am tossing a 30 rounder in the trunk out of spite.
I thought this, but my google-law-fu isn't too great right now... I understand the shithole of Denver, but places like Golden and Boulder having ordinances stating open carry is illegal, how does that mesh with state open carry laws? Just rename Golden Boulden or Golder.
FromMyColdDeadHand
01-16-2018, 15:01
Denver is 'Home Rule', if I have that term right. Something about how they are older than the state or something like that, so they have more local control.
If you are in Denver, or even if you aren't, please contact the City Council. I think the key is the issue that there is no grandfathering for the mags. Think of all those Glock 17 and SigP226 magazines. Making people criminals at the stroke of a pen.
https://www.denvergov.org/content/denvergov/en/denver-city-council/council-members.html
I thought this, but my google-law-fu isn't too great right now... I understand the shithole of Denver, but places like Golden and Boulder having ordinances stating open carry is illegal, how does that mesh with state open carry laws? Just rename Golden Boulden or Golder.
A Denver district judge ruled in Denver's favor. No other judge has ruled in a favor of a City preempting state law.
And I think it is
29-11.7-104. Regulation - carrying - posting
A local government may enact an ordinance, regulation, or other law that prohibits the open carrying of a firearm in a building or specific area within the local government's jurisdiction. If a local government enacts an ordinance, regulation, or other law that prohibits the open carrying of a firearm in a building or specific area, the local government shall post signs at the public entrances to the building or specific area informing persons that the open carrying of firearms is prohibited in the building or specific area.
Who wants to be the first person arrested and charged with a crime to see if state preemption keeps you out of jail?
FromMyColdDeadHand
01-18-2018, 07:39
The final vote on the bill will be on Monday.
Right now the Bump-stocks are dead. There is no support for taking that out of the bill.
There was concern about how the magazine ban is not just a copy/paste of the state law. Councilman Flynn is looking for a way to make it so.
https://vimeo.com/251571494
He actually has a chance to get enough votes to get a grandfathering added.
Please contact your councilperson and ask them to consider supporting making the Denver law truly in line with the state law. Otherwise, it puts a lot of their law abiding constituents at in legal jeopardy without making a meaningful change in the law. As Councilman Flynn says, a lot of 9mm handguns come with 17 round magazines. Imagine all the Glock17, Sig226 and Beretta 92 owners out there that are clueless that they are now afoul of the city law.
It boggles me that we have an actual live issue with guns and half of this thread is about the airport, and a thread about plastics bags get more posts.
BPTactical
01-18-2018, 09:02
Fuck the City and County of Denver.
With a 90# jackhammer soaked in Ebola, AIDS and herpes.
kidicarus13
01-18-2018, 09:17
Video @2:00... "...if you can prove you owned it." [hahhah-no]
Is this just for Denver or the entire state? The thread seems to indicate this is a Denver thing, the proposed law I just read seems to be a state wide thing. As was pointed out already their definition is total hogwash.
This thread is related to the Denver ban. There is another proposed bill that we spoke about in the "repeal the magazine ban" thread that is proposed at the state level.
Part of me wants to say"let 'em pass this bullshit", and then use it as a stepping stone to get the Myers decision reversed. Denver is entirely too arrogant when it comes to flouting the laws of this state and the federal government. I'm not a Denver resident, so I don't have a dog in this fight, other than Michael Hancock pisses me off every time he opens that ugly hole under his nose...
Color me uniformed... Myers decision? My googl-fu is not producing anything that looks relevant.
The Myers decision is the one that concluded Denver had the right to regulate open carry, assault weapons, and magazines independently of State law.
In the 2003 legislative session, the General Assembly passed Senate Bills 24 and 25. Both bills were signed into law by Governor Owens on March 18, 2003. The bills contained sweeping legislative declarations that identify control of firearms as a state interest and seek to preempt conflicting local laws. Senate Bill 24 addresses primarily a uniform system for issuing permits for carrying concealed handguns, while Senate Bill 25 addresses other aspects of firearms regulation.
The City and County of Denver is a home rule city created and organized under Article XX, Section 6 of the Colorado Constitution (the "home rule amendment"). Under the home rule amendment, a home rule municipality has the supreme power to legislate in matters of local concern. Historically, Denver has had a range of ordinances controlling various aspects of the possession, use and sale of firearms in the city.
In this action, Denver seeks a declaratory judgment that specified Denver ordinances are not preempted by state law and, alternatively, that Senate Bill 24 and 25 are unconstitutional under the home rule amendment to the extent that they seek to preempt local laws. The City seeks an injunction against state "enforcement" of Senate Bills 24 and 25 and asks that the Court enjoin the state from interfering with Denver's enforcement of its ordinances.
After the State's motion to dismiss for lack of standing was denied, the case was set for trial. Prior to the trial date, the parties reached agreement that there are no disputed issues of material fact and that the case could be decided as a matter of law on cross motions for summary judgment. Therefore, the trial date was vacated, and each party filed a motion for summary judgment. Those motions have been fully briefed, and oral argument was heard on September 24, 2004. As directed at oral argument, the parties have submitted supplemental filings specifying the relief they request. The City has also tendered to the Court copies of certain amended ordinances which had not been provided earlier.
The City's complaint addressed 15 specific ordinances and two regulations. Complaint, ¶ 7. One of those ordinances has since been repealed, and another has been amended. The State now concedes that nine ordinances and the two regulations do not conflict with state law.[1] Although they overlap to some extent, the retraining ordinances can be divided into five topical categories: (1) concealed handguns/firearms in vehicles; (2) open carrying of firearms; (3) assault weapons/Saturday night specials: (4) safe storage juveniles; and (5) firearms in city parks. In Summary, the State argues that all of the City’s ordinances in these areas are preempted by the States’s interest and participation in the field of firearms regulation. The City's position is that each ordinance must be examined separately and that the disputed ordinances either do not conflict with state law or address matters of purely local concern.
https://www.rmgo.org/news/news-archive/33-2004-news/218-meyers-court-decision
If you're not a resident of the City & County of Denver, what influence does one have on the Denver City Council?
FromMyColdDeadHand
01-18-2018, 16:16
If you're not a resident of the City & County of Denver, what influence does one have on the Denver City Council?
Ever CC when you travel to Denver with a 9mm FS gun? Travelling through gives you supposed protection, but visiting, no. So at least there is impact.
Email addresses don't give geography. I don't know if they run comments through voting roles or not.
Well this is going to fuck me fairly well as far as mags. Storing the 30s out of the city is frustrating but I live with it, but fuck me if I wanna deal with that for all my 20s or 17ers (all legal under the current laws of course). Being able to walk to my favorite horrible bar and being able to have a sub 5 mile bike ride to work has been pretty nice, but I think it's time to look for out of city options again once my lease is up. I should've just stayed in Golden and saved myself the headaches.
This is all just so frustrating. To me it's like saying cars are driving too fast so we'll have to go ahead and ban racing stripes.
FromMyColdDeadHand
01-18-2018, 19:34
This is all just so frustrating. To me it's like saying cars are driving too fast so we'll have to go ahead and ban racing stripes.
And if your car has racing stripes you have to peel them off and then you can’t even sell them to someone else.
Because the state thing is going on at the same time even my wife was confused listening to news reports as to what was going on.
This is all just so frustrating. To me it's like saying cars are driving too fast so we'll have to go ahead and ban racing stripes.
Worse, you haven't been able to buy a cars with stripes for 5 years, and nothing has happened, but fuck you it's still to fast! Better go ahead and slightly, but very inconveniently limit how much gas your tank can hold.
Great-Kazoo
01-18-2018, 21:05
Ever CC when you travel to Denver with a 9mm FS gun? Travelling through gives you supposed protection, but visiting, no. So at least there is impact.
Email addresses don't give geography. I don't know if they run comments through voting roles or not.
Traveling through or visiting the city of denver you're gtg based on where you reside. These laws ( if i can find the small print and numerous discussions elsewhere) only apply to residents of Denver.
Now if you have an ID showing you're other than a U.S citizen doesn't matter what you do. Hell Denver even has a fund set up to provide legal representation. Of course we're the only ones who see the irony of Denver's biased Home Rule Laws.
FromMyColdDeadHand
01-18-2018, 21:26
Traveling through or visiting the city of denver you're gtg based on where you reside. These laws ( if i can find the small print and numerous discussions elsewhere) only apply to residents of Denver.
Now if you have an ID showing you're other than a U.S citizen doesn't matter what you do. Hell Denver even has a fund set up to provide legal representation. Of course we're the only ones who see the irony of Denver's biased Home Rule Laws.
IF you are walking around “visiting”, I think you are going to have a problem. The real issue is, how would you get caught. It is an issue for all these laws, but it doesn’t remove the legal peril.
I have been talking with the guy pushing for this law. And he has all but said its for political gain only. I am going to the shitty counsel meeting on Monday to demand he explain how this bumpstock ban or magazine limit is going to save any lives. He can't. All he told me is "saving lives is most important."
...All he told me is "saving lives is most important."
Imagine how many lives could be saved if everyone was rounded up and placed into maximum security safety centers. It's easy if you try.
kidicarus13
01-18-2018, 23:13
he has all but said its for political gain only. All he told me is "saving lives is most important."
So which one is it?
Giving up freedom for the good intention of safety is never a good idea. The road to ruin is paved with good intentions.
This sounds like yet another reason to just avoid Denver.
So which one is it?I would say its the former since the latter can't be proven. It just feels good.
Great-Kazoo
01-18-2018, 23:34
Giving up freedom for the good intention of safety is never a good idea. The road to ruin is paved with good intentions.
This sounds like yet another reason to just avoid Denver.
Possibly the entire country.
https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2017/12/26/2017-27898/application-of-the-definition-of-machinegun-to-bump-fire-stocks-and-other-similar-devices#open-comment
FromMyColdDeadHand
01-19-2018, 06:29
I have been talking with the guy pushing for this law. And he has all but said its for political gain only. I am going to the shitty counsel meeting on Monday to demand he explain how this bumpstock ban or magazine limit is going to save any lives. He can't. All he told me is "saving lives is most important."
There is a real hatred on the left for gun owners. I’ve been told to just move out of town. This is all part of a, for a lack of a better term, “redneck cleansing “.
Please try to be civil at the meeting. I think part of this is they try to bait us into acting out. Being rational and fact based gaines us the upper hand. Elections are for when we need to pull out all stops. There are number of people on the council that are at least against the magazine change. The key is to show that this law doesn’t affect “gun nuts“ but that they rather affect regular every day citizens like their next-door neighbors.
This isn’t about gun control. Because the state level is already set. It is about putting tens of thousands of residence in legal peril for 2 9mm rounds in the most popular magazines for the most popular gun’s.
Elections are for when things are won or lost. These meetings are for limiting the damage.
I think the most important thing is just showing up. Number of people there will be more influential than probably anything that can be said. Unfortunately I have to be out of town on a business trip but I can’t move.
FromMyColdDeadHand
01-19-2018, 06:58
Avatar check.
GTG.
I wonder where Colorado figures in this: http://thehill.com/opinion/finance/369536-census-data-show-people-flocking-to-low-tax-states
Also, do those people flee Dem policies and then vote Dem?
FromMyColdDeadHand
01-19-2018, 08:37
I don't know if this is just how these legislative calendars run, but it is interesting that these are happening right when all the gun guys are busy with SHOT SHOW stuff. I definitely have noticed that the other side is getting more tuned in. Most of their silliness used to be driven by ignorance. I think they have learned and are lot more intentionally obtuse. No more 'clips' and 'thingy that goes up' comments. DEgette was the last one to screw up basic gun knowledge on magazines being reloadable.
I don't know if this is just how these legislative calendars run, but it is interesting that these are happening right when all the gun guys are busy with SHOT SHOW stuff. I definitely have noticed that the other side is getting more tuned in. Most of their silliness used to be driven by ignorance. I think they have learned and are lot more intentionally obtuse. No more 'clips' and 'thingy that goes up' comments. DEgette was the last one to screw up basic gun knowledge on magazines being reloadable.
Yes, the legislative session in Colorado (meaning the time they meet, make and pass laws) is 120 days for the regular session. Special session can be called, but for the most part it's 120 days.
I wonder where Colorado figures in this: http://thehill.com/opinion/finance/369536-census-data-show-people-flocking-to-low-tax-states
Also, do those people flee Dem policies and then vote Dem?
Yes . . . yes, they do.
Possibly the entire country.
https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2017/12/26/2017-27898/application-of-the-definition-of-machinegun-to-bump-fire-stocks-and-other-similar-devices#open-comment
Yeah, I've already filed my comment.
FromMyColdDeadHand
01-19-2018, 21:07
If you have friends in the city, firearms owners or not, please have them contact their and all the councilpersons. The mag part is still in play and very in reach. If the council people get comments from residents to show that this is a real issue, enough of them are rational to vote in our favor. The bumpstock no real support, so I wouldn't even mention it.
I wonder where Colorado figures in this: http://thehill.com/opinion/finance/369536-census-data-show-people-flocking-to-low-tax-states
Also, do those people flee Dem policies and then vote Dem?
The dems will have redrawn the American map for socialism. And it will either be the biggest prank ever or their subconscience will win and will show America what the Dems really want america to look like.
California ( Denver in the middle * and New York on the right ). It will look like this (*). I guess Chicago will me a unicorn tat on the right cheek.
LOL let me know if you get my joke. It was a stretch.
The dems will have redrawn the American map for socialism. And it will either be the biggest prank ever or their subconscience will win and will show America what the Dems really want america to look like.
California ( Denver in the middle * and New York on the right ). It will look like this (*). I guess Chicago will me a unicorn tat on the right cheek.
LOL let me know if you get my joke. It was a stretch.
Yes, Denver will be the asshole of America. The stretch, I assume, is due to that giant commie peen.
Yes, Denver will be the asshole of America. The stretch, I assume, is due to that giant commie peen.
If they had a giant peen... they wouldn't be commies. IMHO.
FromMyColdDeadHand
01-20-2018, 22:27
Yes, Denver will be the asshole of America. The stretch, I assume, is due to that giant commie peen.
That is the composting toilets....
Any news on this?
Sent from my iPhone
Dlesh123
01-22-2018, 15:33
Merrifield has introduced senate bill 18-51 to ban bump stocks,
Http://leg.colorado.gov/bills/sb18-051
The way that is worded, it wouldnt ban jack
The way that is worded, it wouldnt ban jack
Don't say that until it passes and is signed.
Any news on this?
Denver is still a non-permissive environment for freedom loving individuals... Not sure a ban passing or not would change that at this point.
A device that attaches to a semiautomatic firearm and allows the firearm to discharge 2 or more shots in a burst when the device is activated; or
A manual or power-driven trigger-activating device that, when attached to a semiautomatic firearm, increases the rate of fire of that firearm.
The wording is awful... Does my hand count? Because I'm pretty sure I can get 2 or more shots in a "burst" with two individual pulls of the trigger in very quick order.
Denver is still a non-permissive environment for freedom loving individuals... Not sure a ban passing or not would change that at this point.
I know man, I work downtown. Thank goodness I don’t live there.
Sent from my iPhone
Rucker61
01-22-2018, 18:13
Merrifield has introduced senate bill 18-51 to ban bump stocks,
Http://leg.colorado.gov/bills/sb18-051
"A manual or power-driven trigger-activating device that, when attached to a semiautomatic firearm, increases the rate of fire of that firearm."
Man, there go rubber bands.
Pretty much covers binary triggers (minus legal-speak wrangling of technicalities regarding "press" and "release"), and I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want to be the test case.
Don't sell this short, it a ould be a very dangerous precipice to navigate.
Sent from somewhere
Don't write off the largest job market and population center in the state. Discouraging new people from getting into guns, which these laws do, will result in less progun voters and will take the state with it eventually. I don't disagree that this is going to pass (and I'll have to order some damned 15rd mags and store my fun mags outside of the city), but abandoning Denver as an area not conducive to freedom is going to fuck with everyone big time.
Guessing it's doomed in that committee, thankfully.
More potatoes who know little to nothing about guns writing gun control legislation.
Great-Kazoo
01-22-2018, 20:42
Don't write off the largest job market and population center in the state. Discouraging new people from getting into guns, which these laws do, will result in less progun voters and will take the state with it eventually. I don't disagree that this is going to pass (and I'll have to order some damned 15rd mags and store my fun mags outside of the city), but abandoning Denver as an area not conducive to freedom is going to fuck with everyone big time.
The state's been gone for at least a decade. Only with the rising cost of home sales, increasing MJ tax revenue has anyone actually paid attention to it.
The R's could run an Al Sharpton / Kamala Harris ticket. Still fuck it up.
theGinsue
01-22-2018, 20:46
Too many threads covering the same issues. Merging.
Let's try not to reinvent the wheel every time we want to post - check to see if another thread already covers the topic.
theGinsue
01-22-2018, 20:52
Both passed. :(
Guessing it's doomed in that committee, thankfully.
More potatoes who know little to nothing about guns writing gun control legislation.
So I'm lost. Did these Denver bills pass, or are they stuck in committee?
So I'm lost. Did these Denver bills pass, or are they stuck in committee?
+1
Denver ban passed. No grandfather clause either. As far as the shit we have, would holding onto the bodies sans floorplate and springs be kosher (floor and spring held by someone out of the city)? I guess a magazine body without the guys technically would hold 0 rounds so that might have to be my solution for the moment.
Great-Kazoo
01-22-2018, 21:08
Denver ban passed. No grandfather clause either. As far as the shit we have, would holding onto the bodies sans floorplate and springs be kosher (floor and spring held by someone out of the city)? I guess a magazine body without the guys technically would hold 0 rounds so that might have to be my solution for the moment.
You're in golden why worry?
I'm in Denver, golden was when I started posting here.
Great-Kazoo
01-22-2018, 21:09
So I'm lost. Did these Denver bills pass, or are they stuck in committee?
Reading Kopels input shows how stupid he's getting.. I thought it was bad when the ATF ruled 20+ yrs ago, the original wallet holster for the High Standard was now a NFA item [facepalm]
https://www.denverpost.com/2018/01/22/denver-bans-bump-stocks/
Sorry mods, but we have the duty to invalidate these unconstitutional laws by completely ignoring them.
I can't get a stop sign put in without a study of traffic, environmental impact study and a bag full of crack for the clerk behind the bullet proof glass. But the people for this Denver ban admitted that they knew nothing about a bump stock before Vegas and still was for it out of "it sounds good". And these fools are so antigun that they went for it. Not one study was asked for.
Great-Kazoo
01-22-2018, 22:28
I can't get a stop sign put in without a study of traffic, environmental impact study and a bag full of crack for the clerk behind the bullet proof glass. But the people for this Denver ban admitted that they knew nothing about a bump stock before Vegas and still was for it out of "it sounds good". And these fools are so antigun that they went for it. Not one study was asked for.
You're jaded if you thought there was any other outcome from a sanctuary city, who cares more for illegals than taxpayers.
CoGirl303
01-22-2018, 22:32
AR-15's are already banned in Denver. this seems redundant and pointless.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I see a serious challenge to the Meyers decision in the not too distant future. They seriously f-ed up by not grandfathering existing mags, even to the extent that state law did.
FromMyColdDeadHand
01-23-2018, 00:20
This is why I want to beat the short-bus, recoil-retard Bump-stock "mah-gun' idiots into a stupor with their bump stocks.
And we all know, with out saying it out loud what the next ATF oddity is that they'll use as an excuse.
I can't believe that the mag issue with some sort or grandfathering failed by one vote because one of the council persons who would have voted for it didn't attend.
This thing goes live as soon as the mayor signs it too. That is crazy when you consider the press barely mentions the magazine issue and says that it matches the state level.
IDGAF about how how it isn't the bump-stock morons fault. It is a way to get things done. It has been 5 years since the state level moved. They left it alone for half a decade.
FromMyColdDeadHand
01-23-2018, 00:37
I do want to commend Councilman Flynn for his attempts as fixing the magazine issue. He voted against the whole bill because of it. The magazine grandfathering one form did get a 6-6 vote. There was one more councilperson that would have voted for it, but they didn't attend. That made the difference.
I'd like it if people would thank Mr. Flynn for standing up as he did.
Kevin.Flynn@denvergov.org
We have to show support and appreciation for those willing to buck the system, even way behind the lines like Denver is becoming. We need to focus on the 'n+1' solutions on this. From the original AWB ban that was upheld on a tie vote in court (IIRC) to this vote on magazines, it all came down to a single vote. Even in Denver there are allies, who may be imperfect to the most stringent among us- but are the key to legislatively getting better outcomes.
I've contacted a local attorney that I know that does criminal defense to see who he thought might be someone good to try to challenge this starting with a preliminary injunction.
What exactly do you legally do with a magazine that you can't transfer?
If I don't hear back from him tomorrow morning, I'm going to contact the NRA-ILA. I really don't want them involved because of the optics, but this is why we donate money.
ETA: Kopel's is trying to be too cute. His ploy is to try to open the NFA registry for new machine guns.
Bumpstocks were always going to bite us in the ass because the mantra has been that ARs are not machine guns. Bumpstocks made that line of differentiation hard to explan in light of the videos from LV.
“Gun violence is often coming from a home base,” said Councilwoman Robin Kniech, who cited domestic violence as a major reason impetus against allowing larger capacity magazines to be kept in homes.
It is hard to make up something that stupid.
Denver City Council votes to ban bump stocks (http://kdvr.com/2018/01/22/denver-city-council-votes-to-ban-bump-stocks/)
DENVER -- The Denver City Council voted Monday evening to ban bump stocks, the device that can increase the speed in which a gun can be fired.
It is also now illegal to have a magazine that holds more than 15 rounds, down from 21 and putting the city in line with state laws. The ban was supported 11-1.
The Las Vegas shooter used a bump stock on at least one of his weapons during the rampage that killed nearly 60 people in October, allowing him to fire as many as 90 rounds in 10 seconds.
The bill bans any device for a pistol, rifle or shotgun that increases the rate of fire and repeated activation of the trigger.
Denver is just the second city in the country to pass such a ban.
The state legislature is considering similar action. Hearings are underway at the Capitol to implement a statewide ban on bump stocks.
"Having seen what's happened in Las Vegas, being concerned in Colorado, I think it's reasonable we outlaw the purchase and sale of bump stocks," said State Sen. Michael Merrifield, D-Colorado Springs.
But its chances of passing in the State Senate, which is controlled by Republicans, is slim.
"It's just one more example of government overreach, meaning well and trying to address some of the issues, but the result is we make life harder for law-abiding citizens," said State Sen. Owen Hill, R-Colorado Springs. "And we don't do anything to solve the crime, which is bad people with guns.
"Even is we pass something here in Colorado, there are 49 other states where you can buy it online. The internet has upended all of this. It's well-meaning, but at the end of the day, it takes away the Second Amendment rights of law-abiding citizens and doesn't cut down on gun violence."
Fines under the new Denver law could be as much as $1,000 and up to 180 days in jail.
11-1...
"Missed it by *that* much."
-Maxwell Smart
I do want to commend Councilman Flynn for his attempts as fixing the magazine issue. He voted against the whole bill because of it. The magazine grandfathering one form did get a 6-6 vote. There was one more councilperson that would have voted for it, but they didn't attend. That made the difference.
I'd like it if people would thank Mr. Flynn for standing up as he did.
Kevin.Flynn@denvergov.org
We have to show support and appreciation for those willing to buck the system, even way behind the lines like Denver is becoming. We need to focus on the 'n+1' solutions on this. From the original AWB ban that was upheld on a tie vote in court (IIRC) to this vote on magazines, it all came down to a single vote. Even in Denver there are allies, who may be imperfect to the most stringent among us- but are the key to legislatively getting better outcomes.
I've contacted a local attorney that I know that does criminal defense to see who he thought might be someone good to try to challenge this starting with a preliminary injunction.
What exactly do you legally do with a magazine that you can't transfer?
If I don't hear back from him tomorrow morning, I'm going to contact the NRA-ILA. I really don't want them involved because of the optics, but this is why we donate money.
ETA: Kopel's is trying to be too cute. His ploy is to try to open the NFA registry for new machine guns.
Bumpstocks were always going to bite us in the ass because the mantra has been that ARs are not machine guns. Bumpstocks made that line of differentiation hard to explan in light of the videos from LV.
It is hard to make up something that stupid.
The only legal solution and what they're hoping for is that you destroy it or surrender it to local LE to have it destroyed for you or donate it so that they can use it. You know, the CITIZEN comprised LE that should have the same rights as all of us as matters such as magazine size but hey... we created a separate class of citizens just so some can be deemed more responsible than others. *rolls eyes*
Great-Kazoo
01-23-2018, 09:39
Denver City Council votes to ban bump stocks (http://kdvr.com/2018/01/22/denver-city-council-votes-to-ban-bump-stocks/)
11-1...
"Missed it by *that* much."
-Maxwell Smart
Obviously the DCC has been operating in the cone of silence for some time.
Obviously the DCC has been operating in the cone of silence for some time.
I think it's more like a libtard echo chamber. They're in their own little world with a common mental disorder.
I think it's more like a libtard echo chamber. They're in their own little world with a common mental disorder.
That's pretty much the definition of every echo chamber.
kidicarus13
01-23-2018, 11:08
What exactly do you legally do with a magazine that you can't transfer?
The technical answer is, as a law-abiding Denverite you need to destroy them or turn them in. But in all seriousness, if you have to ask people on an online forum what you need to do, maybe you don't need them anyways.
https://www.denverpost.com/2018/01/22/denver-bans-bump-stocks
“Gun violence is often coming from a home base,” said Councilwoman Robin Kniech, who cited domestic violence as a major reason impetus against allowing larger capacity magazines to be kept in homes.
Makes perfect sense to me. With 15 rounds women are safe from their male abusers. But that 16th round would have been disaster.
But it is nice to see women once again used for progress.
NYSafe Act was, as predicted, the precedent. There are many in the gun community who ran from that fight including the owners of another certain popular site.
Great-Kazoo
01-23-2018, 11:39
The technical answer is, as a law-abiding Denverite you need to destroy them or turn them in. But in all seriousness, if you have to ask people on an online forum what you need to do, maybe you don't need them anyways.
LIKE !
Rucker61
01-23-2018, 12:26
The only legal solution and what they're hoping for is that you destroy it or surrender it to local LE to have it destroyed for you or donate it so that they can use it. You know, the CITIZEN comprised LE that should have the same rights as all of us as matters such as magazine size but hey... we created a separate class of citizens just so some can be deemed more responsible than others. *rolls eyes*
The city councilman who proposed the law states that only law enforcement needs that kind of firepower, which makes me wonder when he thinks law enforcement would need that kind of firepower.
Since law enforcement works for the elected officials (paramilitary), it comes as no surprise that those same elected officials believe that only "their" law enforcement should need that kind of firepower. Sort of resembles the argument made by celebrities with armed security about the rest of us not needing to be armed.
I am not suggesting that many within law enforcement agree with this sentiment. It has been my experience and personal belief that we in law enforcement work for the People as defined in the US Constitution and not the other public servants elected by the People.
If it is good for the goose it should be good for the gander. If the People can't be trusted with it, the government certainly can't be trusted with it. Just my opinion of course.
Be safe.
Which Counsel Critter didn't show up?
The city councilman who proposed the law states that only law enforcement needs that kind of firepower, which makes me wonder when he thinks law enforcement would need that kind of firepower.
Exactly.
Since law enforcement works for the elected officials (paramilitary), it comes as no surprise that those same elected officials believe that only "their" law enforcement should need that kind of firepower. Sort of resembles the argument made by celebrities with armed security about the rest of us not needing to be armed.
I am not suggesting that many within law enforcement agree with this sentiment. It has been my experience and personal belief that we in law enforcement work for the People as defined in the US Constitution and not the other public servants elected by the People.
If it is good for the goose it should be good for the gander. If the People can't be trusted with it, the government certainly can't be trusted with it. Just my opinion of course.
Be safe.
I couldn't agree more and I have several friends in LE that agree with this statement.
Since law enforcement works for the elected officials (paramilitary), it comes as no surprise that those same elected officials believe that only "their" law enforcement should need that kind of firepower. Sort of resembles the argument made by celebrities with armed security about the rest of us not needing to be armed.
I am not suggesting that many within law enforcement agree with this sentiment. It has been my experience and personal belief that we in law enforcement work for the People as defined in the US Constitution and not the other public servants elected by the People.
If it is good for the goose it should be good for the gander. If the People can't be trusted with it, the government certainly can't be trusted with it. Just my opinion of course.
Be safe.
I've never met a single LEO who said different. I'm sure they're out there, but all the cops I've talked to about such issues find such "laws" deplorable. The main reason is they know criminals don't obey laws and these "laws" affect no one but honest citizens.
CoGirl303
01-23-2018, 15:18
there's a petition going around
https://www.change.org/p/colorado-state-senate-a-call-for-the-city-of-denver-to-reverse-the-bump-stock-and-large-capacity-magazine-ban?recruiter=1657915&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=copylink&utm_campaign=share_petition
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
KevDen2005
01-23-2018, 15:20
Since law enforcement works for the elected officials (paramilitary), it comes as no surprise that those same elected officials believe that only "their" law enforcement should need that kind of firepower. Sort of resembles the argument made by celebrities with armed security about the rest of us not needing to be armed.
I am not suggesting that many within law enforcement agree with this sentiment. It has been my experience and personal belief that we in law enforcement work for the People as defined in the US Constitution and not the other public servants elected by the People.
Be safe.
I work alone....Like Lorenzo Lamas
there's a petition going around
https://www.change.org/p/colorado-state-senate-a-call-for-the-city-of-denver-to-reverse-the-bump-stock-and-large-capacity-magazine-ban?recruiter=1657915&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=copylink&utm_campaign=share_petition
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
If non-Denver residents sign, will it even matter to them?
CoGirl303
01-23-2018, 15:47
If non-Denver residents sign, will it even matter to them?
no idea. but my dl still has a Denver address so there's that. (changed in the system though, lol)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
If non-Denver residents sign, will it even matter to them?
Absolutely, just like all the phone calls and letters mattered in 2013. Exactly that much.
I think it just keeps coming back to getting a favorable USSC and taking this all the way up like Heller and McDonald. If Miller is going to be ignored then there will need to be a new test for what level of form/function we are allowed to have in a firearm. There certainly isn't equal protection and application of 2A (incorporated against the states/locals) happening right now. The conflict between Denver and Colorado law on mags is a perfect example (which demonstrates the stupidity of the Denver Shitty Council in not squaring this up).
If someone takes this on, I will donate $$$ and it will mean more than phone calls to petty tyrants.
NYSafe Act seven round limit was bounced but (IIRC) a lower court found that 10 rounds was an acceptable limitation. I don't think there is a formal line drawn other than Miller which I think would extend to magazines as parts of firearms that determine if their capability meets firearms in common use by mil and LE.
The misunderstanding of bump stocks would likely result in a ban. I don't see a way around that since Miller codifies NFA as would any subsequence test that incorporates "dangerous and unusual." I don't own any bump stocks but wouldn't be happy to trade them or any other rights.
I read a post this week by a 1911 collector on a 1911 board who lives in NJ. He is worried he will have to ship his collectable WWI/II mags out of state for holding. They are seven rounders (for you heathens who don't know 1911s). Yes, even after the NYSafe Act decision they are treating gun owners this way!
So this can, and likely will, get worse.
Great-Kazoo
01-23-2018, 19:44
I think it just keeps coming back to getting a favorable USSC and taking this all the way up like Heller and McDonald. If Miller is going to be ignored then there will need to be a new test for what level of form/function we are allowed to have in a firearm. There certainly isn't equal protection and application of 2A (incorporated against the states/locals) happening right now. The conflict between Denver and Colorado law on mags is a perfect example (which demonstrates the stupidity of the Denver Shitty Council in not squaring this up).
If someone takes this on, I will donate $$$ and it will mean more than phone calls to petty tyrants.
NYSafe Act seven round limit was bounced but (IIRC) a lower court found that 10 rounds was an acceptable limitation. I don't think there is a formal line drawn other than Miller which I think would extend to magazines as parts of firearms that determine if their capability meets firearms in common use by mil and LE.
The misunderstanding of bump stocks would likely result in a ban. I don't see a way around that since Miller codifies NFA as would any subsequence test that incorporates "dangerous and unusual." I don't own any bump stocks but wouldn't be happy to trade them or any other rights.
I read a post this week by a 1911 collector on a 1911 board who lives in NJ. He is worried he will have to ship his collectable WWI/II mags out of state for holding. They are seven rounders (for you heathens who don't know 1911s). Yes, even after the NYSafe Act decision they are treating gun owners this way!
So this can, and likely will, get worse.
NYsafe act has no bearing on what jersey does. ;) NJ just became worse with the new gov'nr who wants to mirror CA as an east coast progressive enclave
I'm trying to find it, but the CA voter mag ban has been challenged and has been halted by the judge. The gun collective did a legal brief. It could have serious implications against the anti gunners if up held, especially if it goes to the USSC. Could undo all mag and gun type bans.
FromMyColdDeadHand
01-23-2018, 21:43
The technical answer is, as a law-abiding Denverite you need to destroy them or turn them in. But in all seriousness, if you have to ask people on an online forum what you need to do, maybe you don't need them anyways.
Don't be obtuse. It was a general question as to how the city expects people to comply. How exactly are you supposed to destroy a mag? We are talking the general population here. Give them to the cops? The law is hot as soon as the mayor signs it, so sure- take them to the cops, what is to say they won't just arrest you. They sure could. There is no safe harbor or other clause to prevent it.
What I was trying to show is that this law is badly conceived and implemented. Mainly in the idea of a injunctive action to prevent its enforcement. From there, you use that basis as a way to start a case.
From what I understand, you'd have to prevail going to the federal level to get past all the dem judges in Colorado to get a fair hearing to get this whole thing looked at. You are talking big money.
I thought the relevant case was McDonald (v. Chicago?). That is at least in our favor, we'd have to reverse Miller, or more accurately, get it clarified.
If non-Denver residents sign, will it even matter to them?
I don't think getting the Pope to sign it will help.
I'm putting together a marketing/protest plan together to start putting pressure on the grabbers. We need to change the focus from the guns to the actual violence. The concept is to apply pressure to the grabbers and change middle of the road people to realize that gun/mag focus isn't effective. But more importantly that every time they limbo for a lower mag limit, they are wasting an opportunity to actually make us safer. The deaths in the meantime are on their hands. Defending our rights isn't going to cut it, we have to exact a political and social cost on these people. We need a message that is positive to protecting our rights, and actually making us safer.
I'm trying to find it, but the CA voter mag ban has been challenged and has been halted by the judge. The gun collective did a legal brief. It could have serious implications against the anti gunners if up held, especially if it goes to the USSC. Could undo all mag and gun type bans.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PLjmUPPWVrI_jOU3E9ENSoKis_W-2Cq08c¶ms=OAFIAVga&v=x0BXxi0PFxk&mode=NORMAL
If a 17 rounder was legal prior to the action of the DCC, how can they deprive the owner of their property without due process (14th Amendment)?
KevDen2005
01-23-2018, 23:16
https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PLjmUPPWVrI_jOU3E9ENSoKis_W-2Cq08c¶ms=OAFIAVga&v=x0BXxi0PFxk&mode=NORMAL
The video is more than six months old, any knowledge or links as to where the process is currently?
there's a petition going around
https://www.change.org/p/colorado-state-senate-a-call-for-the-city-of-denver-to-reverse-the-bump-stock-and-large-capacity-magazine-ban?recruiter=1657915&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=copylink&utm_campaign=share_petition
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
It needs to have the magazine ban in there too.
FromMyColdDeadHand
01-24-2018, 07:56
If a 17 rounder was legal prior to the action of the DCC, how can they deprive the owner of their property without due process (14th Amendment)?
That has been my point about it be a taking and that the law is 'hot' as soon as the mayor signs it. To me, a preliminary injunction is a slam dunk. Going past that legally is a big question, but a preliminary injunction would be a start to putting a viable response in place. Even if it is denied, it would highlight the craziness of the law.
The video is more than six months old, any knowledge or links as to where the process is currently?
I have asked, no response yet.
Likely none as these move at a snails pace.
NYsafe act has no bearing on what jersey does. ;) NJ just became worse with the new gov'nr who wants to mirror CA as an east coast progressive enclave
NY law is international law (kidding). Bloomberg and DeBlasio both think they can travel the country looking for gun control violations.
No, NYSafe is not a NJ law but it's the same issue that will wind/unwind in the same way.
And the new gov is a Democrat POS but I'm being verbose.
I'm trying to find it, but the CA voter mag ban has been challenged and has been halted by the judge. The gun collective did a legal brief. It could have serious implications against the anti gunners if up held, especially if it goes to the USSC. Could undo all mag and gun type bans.
^ This is what I'm touching on.
Assuming Miller is dead there are still lines somewhere according to judges in very liberal jurisdictions.
NY says seven rounds is too little and arbitrary (kind of a stupid statement since all gun laws are arbitrary).
CA says you can't confiscate property.
Heller says you're entitled to a own a firearm as an individual right. McDonald says that right extends to all of the US (except NYC apparently).
These decisions are seemingly worthless unless you have a petitioner/defendant in each jurisdiction with $200,000 in his pocket to navigate the legal system (basing that on McDonald).
Anyone in Denver own a G17 and want to spend $200K?
CoGirl303
01-24-2018, 21:05
Does anyone actually still honestly believe that a "bump stock" was used in the Vegas shooting?
Because I sure as hell KNOW that was no bump stock firing down on those people. That was 100% guaranteed an M-240 belt fed US Army full automatic machine gun. The chop sound was way too discernable and all the bump stock vid's on youtube sound nothing like the weapon used at Vegas.
hurley842002
01-24-2018, 21:09
Does anyone actually still honestly believe that a "bump stock" was used in the Vegas shooting?
Because I sure as hell KNOW that was no bump stock firing down on those people. That was 100% guaranteed an M-240 belt fed US Army full automatic machine gun. The chop sound was way too discernable and all the bump stock vid's on youtube sound nothing like the weapon used at Vegas.
Well, you've gone and ensured that pretty much nobody on this forum except maybe Bushmasterboy will ever take you seriously again. Do you have any facts supporting your wild claims on the LV incident?
Now where did I put my belt-fed popcorn gun...
Now where did I put my belt-fed popcorn gun...
You're killing me with these today, I'm cracking up
CoGirl303
01-24-2018, 21:30
Well, you've gone and ensured that pretty much nobody on this forum except maybe Bushmasterboy will ever take you seriously again. Do you have any facts supporting your wild claims on the LV incident?
Military experience firing both the M-240 and the M-249 personally while I was in basic training. Trained ear.
https://screengist.com/2017/10/02/update-19-guns-loaded-high-capacity-magazines-found-in-vegas-shooters-room/
m240 sound
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyvd6VzitsM
Vegas shooting sound.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQYv0v_QPC0&has_verified=1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kj9q3DVQMek
The discernible "chop" of a belt fed automatic is completely different than that of a magazine fed automatic. Only experience can teach you this. Having been around firearms for 30+ years (since age 7), I trust my ears, experience and knowledge over what the media feeds us or wants us to believe.
As for everyone else, there's not much I can do about that.
hurley842002
01-24-2018, 21:42
Military experience firing both the M-240 and the M-249 personally while I was in basic training. Trained ear.
https://screengist.com/2017/10/02/update-19-guns-loaded-high-capacity-magazines-found-in-vegas-shooters-room/
m240 sound
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyvd6VzitsM
Vegas shooting sound.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQYv0v_QPC0&has_verified=1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kj9q3DVQMek
The discernible "chop" of a belt fed automatic is completely different than that of a magazine fed automatic. Only experience can teach you this. Having been around firearms for 30+ years (since age 7), I trust my ears, experience and knowledge over what the media feeds us or wants us to believe.
As for everyone else, there's not much I can do about that..https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180125/0ee9a15978e57988ca53613305e1bccc.gif
CoGirl303
01-24-2018, 22:00
way too many shots fired in the opening volley to be a magazine or even a 100 yard drum. Rate of fire is too fast and way too consistent.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLYehHoM2yQ
How many yards away is he horizontally and vertically from the concert area? 400-500 or more? Do you honestly think a bump stocked AR-15 is going to hit in that area from 400-500 yards, while maintaining that rate of fire that consistently? Not buying it one bit. I've also fired the Slide Fire I own and it's not easy, but that doesn't sound like a bump fire to me. Just my opinion. you don't have to like it.
KevDen2005
01-24-2018, 23:05
way too many shots fired in the opening volley to be a magazine or even a 100 yard drum. Rate of fire is too fast and way too consistent.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLYehHoM2yQ
How many yards away is he horizontally and vertically from the concert area? 400-500 or more? Do you honestly think a bump stocked AR-15 is going to hit in that area from 400-500 yards, while maintaining that rate of fire that consistently? Not buying it one bit. I've also fired the Slide Fire I own and it's not easy, but that doesn't sound like a bump fire to me. Just my opinion. you don't have to like it.
I wonder if you are familiar with how echoing works.
Apparently someone failed rifle class on effective rage of the M4 platform at a group target....
The slide fire is like anything else. Easy if you know how to use it or if you practice with it.
I have no idea what happened in Vegas and neither does anyone else.
CoGirl303
01-24-2018, 23:17
I wonder if you are familiar with how echoing works.
Apparently someone failed rifle class on effective rage of the M4 platform at a group target....
The slide fire is like anything else. Easy if you know how to use it or if you practice with it.
I have no idea what happened in Vegas and neither does anyone else.
1.) I didnt forget. But the effective range without a slide fire is 400-600 yards.
2.) You add a slide fire you're decreasing the accuracy exponentially, likely decreasing the effective range as well. However, I'll relent on this aspect due to the large area of target he had to work with.
3.) still doesnt explain the high rate of fire or the consistency. A machined auto sear is much faster than a human's ability to bump fire.
4.) The distinct "chop" is not from a bump fired weapon. I guarantee this. The sound coming from the hotel room window is belt fed.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
KevDen2005
01-24-2018, 23:19
1.) I didnt forget. But the effective range without a slide fire is 400-600 yards.
2.) You add a slide fire you're decreasing the accuracy exponentially, likely decreasing the effective range as well. However, I'll relent on this aspect due to the large area of target he had to work with.
3.) still doesnt explain the high rate of fire or the consistency. A machined auto sear is much faster than a human's ability to bump fire.
4.) The distinct "chop" is not from a bump fired weapon. I guarantee this. The sound coming from the hotel room window is belt fed.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
And yet not one link recovered on the ground or in the hotel room. Someone did a great job cleaning that up.
I'm not sure this is the thread for this conversation. Clearly derailed.
hurley842002
01-24-2018, 23:23
And yet not one link recovered on the ground or in the hotel room. Someone did a great job cleaning that up.
I'm not sure this is the thread for this conversation. Clearly derailed.
Right, but if a person's tinfoil were on too tight, I'm sure they would have an answer for the missing links (no pun intended).
KevDen2005
01-24-2018, 23:47
Right, but if a person's tinfoil were on too tight, I'm sure they would have an answer for the missing links (no pun intended).
Hmm Well played
I find the argument of the concurrent bursts recorded, with different sounds (one sounds like large caliber and slower and the other sounds higher pitched and faster), more compelling.
Accuracy is not exactly the row I'd hoe when talking about a high position, crowd as target, spray and pray style situation such as in Vegas.
KevDen2005
01-25-2018, 08:00
I find the argument of the concurrent bursts recorded, with different sounds (one sounds like large caliber and slower and the other sounds higher pitched and faster), more compelling.
Accuracy is not exactly the row I'd hoe when talking about a high position, crowd as target, spray and pray style situation such as in Vegas.
I believe something happened in Vegas that not everyone is being told. What that is I think most of us will never know. I like to hear theories about the different possibilities, such as this one. But if anyone said they had concrete knowledge of exactly what happened, I would arrest them and call LVMPD.
I believe something happened in Vegas that not everyone is being told. What that is I think most of us will never know. I like to hear theories about the different possibilities, such as this one. But if anyone said they had concrete knowledge of exactly what happened, I would arrest them and call LVMPD.
Agree. I feel/felt the same about Sandy Hook.
Ultimately my feelings are immaterial because the media shows pictures of scary guns and controls the "facts." The politicians, who fear the People being armed with any weapon of any kind, ban the shoulder things that go up so they can chip away at the fragile balance of power. Those politicians frequently lie about their true goals and aspirations so an honest conversation can never be had. Most don't know what is being taken from us.
The debate about what really did/not happen at LV isn't going to resolve this problem we have. If POS didn't use bump stocks, some other POS narcissist who wants to be relevant/powerful will take his hints from the media and use one. The media's reporting on firearms has been like a dog whistle for every psycho-POS-terrorist with the will. I believe this is intentional and certain people think the lives lost in mass murder shootings are worth the resulting gun control.
Remember Aurora... The "high capacity" magazine actually saved lives because it jammed. Facts didn't help us when it came to the mag ban. the coalition wanted them banned and thus they are.
UrbanWolf
01-25-2018, 13:54
If non-Denver residents sign, will it even matter to them?
Those petitions don't matter in general. Slaves gotta listen to their master.
Those petitions don't matter in general. Slaves gotta listen to their master.
Elections have consequences.
CoGirl303
01-28-2018, 10:08
Elections have consequences.
elections having consequences has been a tough sell in favor of Republicans here in Colorado as of late.
Unless something changes drastically...I don't see that working out in our favor. [emoji20]
The consequences will continue to come at the gun owners expense until the left secures enough voting power to fully repeal the 2nd Amendment and institute a full gun ban and confiscation.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Zundfolge
01-28-2018, 10:36
Elections have consequences.
Fair elections have fair consequences. But we all know the D's and left in general cheat so the consequences of elections are quickly becoming illegitimate.
The consequences will continue to come at the gun owners expense until the left secures enough voting power to fully repeal the 2nd Amendment and institute a full gun ban and confiscation.
On that day we get to explore the option we don't talk about here. But that's a long way off and the left's myopic focus on gun control may actually do more damage to the D's than good (its why Gore lost to Bush).
CoGirl303
01-28-2018, 11:19
Fair elections have fair consequences. But we all know the D's and left in general cheat so the consequences of elections are quickly becoming illegitimate.
On that day we get to explore the option we don't talk about here. But that's a long way off and the left's myopic focus on gun control may actually do more damage to the D's than good (its why Gore lost to Bush).
I'm glad you seem to think its a long ways off. im not so optimistic.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Fair elections have fair consequences. But we all know the D's and left in general cheat so the consequences of elections are quickly becoming illegitimate.
[snip]
Trump is the first one since Reagan that has any chance of restoring integrity to the election process in this country. Folks can hate him all day long but he's the first in a long time to reverse the course of selling down the US and that means an end to replacing American voters.
This is why DACA (an illegal Executive Order, not law) is such a big deal. As I've posted, Libs know without voter replacement/fraud their days are numbered. The attitudes of Gen Z and the realization of failure in Millennials will be their undoing.
And all those true believer Baby Boomers (not all were bad but a lot) are heading to the grave. They've faithfully voted Dim no matter the outcome only to leave their children with no inheritance and debt = they were a burden.
--
Shooting in the Shitty last night. Guess the Shitty Council's gun control ordinances didn't stop it.
https://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/crime/man-killed-2-others-injured-in-east-denver-parking-lot-shooting
http://www.9news.com/mobile/article/news/local/dpd-accepting-turn-ins-of-illegal-bump-stocks/73-519831286
Thieves. At least buy them back or allow transfer to out of townies.
They said they would never take them away. Just regulate them to death they said.
KevDen2005
02-16-2018, 22:36
They said they would never take them away. Just regulate them to death they said.
How many people in Denver City Limits own a bump stock? It's gonna be like the pit bull thing where people will see one in another city and call the police on the owner of said bump stock.
CoGirl303
02-16-2018, 23:29
http://www.9news.com/mobile/article/news/local/dpd-accepting-turn-ins-of-illegal-bump-stocks/73-519831286
Thieves. At least buy them back or allow transfer to out of townies.
I wonder how many people will actually turn them in. There's sure to be a serious amount of comedy in that news report in and of itself.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Great-Kazoo
02-17-2018, 09:26
They said they would never take them away. Just regulate them to death they said.
We only want Equal Rights. Not Special Rights
We only want Equal Rights. Not Special Rights
Where's my cake?
Great-Kazoo
02-17-2018, 10:48
Where's my cake?
It's in the oven. Don't get your manties in a wad.
I have shot with them. One on an AR and another on the AK. Its the closest I have ever got to shooting the real thing. But I have never owned one and I wasn't convinced I will. And I buy a lot of useless stuff. I did like the AR one better. The AK seemed be all over the place.
I have shot with them. One on an AR and another on the AK. Its the closest I have ever got to shooting the real thing. But I have never owned one and I wasn't convinced I will. And I buy a lot of useless stuff. I did like the AR one better. The AK seemed be all over the place.
AK are kinda all over the place anyway.
[ROFL1]
Beside while in the Army, I've since shot a friend's select fire M16 - RDIAS equipped 80's era Bushmaster lower with various uppers from 16" down to 7.5" (that's a riot!), and his Vietnam dropsie bringback Chinese T56 AK. Lots of fun, expensive to run. That AK is probably worth well north of $40K now, a price he turned down a few years ago when offered.
We need to repeal the Hughes Amendment. I watched the video of the vote on youtube and it looked like it was voted down as an amendment.
Great-Kazoo
02-17-2018, 17:25
We need to repeal the Hughes Amendment. I watched the video of the vote on youtube and it looked like it was voted down as an amendment.
As long as there are well publicized shootings, you'll never see a repeal of Any Gun law. Increased laws yes, decrease of never.
We will see a huge change in the laws if they vote to ban them.
Great-Kazoo
02-18-2018, 00:20
We will see a huge change in the laws if they vote to ban them.
WE ? I thought you were ready to take to the streets.
Taking to the streets so much I have mad street cred.
Just saw on the news this morning that since Denver has implemented its ban on bump stocks, not a single one has been turned in to the police. [LOL]
This is an opportunity for the brave and courageous pro-gun liberals on this board to take action, please their (D) masters, give up their 2A rights (that they voted to give up anyway), avoid the hypocrisy of their own making, and drop their guns off at the local sheriffs office.
KevDen2005
02-21-2018, 09:41
This is an opportunity for the brave and courageous pro-gun liberals on this board to take action, please their (D) masters, give up their 2A rights (that they voted to give up anyway), avoid the hypocrisy of their own making, and drop their guns off at the local sheriffs office.
Salty this morning....some of us are still drinking coffee
kidicarus13
02-21-2018, 09:46
Just saw on the news this morning that since Denver has implemented its ban on bump stocks, not a single one has been turned in to the police. [LOL]
[ROFL1]
KevDen2005
02-21-2018, 09:52
[ROFL1]
Yet every source seems to be sold out....
Just saw on the news this morning that since Denver has implemented its ban on bump stocks, not a single one has been turned in to the police. [LOL]
No true Denverite would ever own such an unnecessary weapon of war (which, coincidentally has never been used in combat). They're good and stable people, content with their Lowes brand door locks to provide protection until the police can arrive 1-3 hours later.
KevDen2005
02-21-2018, 10:39
No true Denverite would ever own such an unnecessary weapon of war (which, coincidentally has never been used in combat). They're good and stable people, content with their Lowes brand door locks to provide protection until the police can arrive 1-3 hours later.
No need to rag on Lowes.
Salty this morning....some of us are still drinking coffee
LOL I've been up working since 4AM.
Just saw on the news this morning that since Denver has implemented its ban on bump stocks, not a single one has been turned in to the police. [LOL]
Maybe they just don't want to signal their virtue.
No need to rag on Lowes.
You're right. Home Depot would be more up Denver's alley, since they're a fabulous, thpecial case employer.
No need to rag on Lowes.
You're right. Home Depot would be more up Denver's alley, since they're a fabulous, thpecial case employer.
Rag on HD, they don't give an anytime Vet discount like Lowes does...
Rag on HD, they don't give an anytime Vet discount like Lowes does...
What do you mean by anytime? I know they give Vet discounts, but I've run into one situation where they did not.
What do you mean by anytime? I know they give Vet discounts, but I've run into one situation where they did not.
What do you mean? Lowes gives Vets 10% off every day.
They certainly have exceptions (promo and already discounted prices, gift cards, etc.) but everyday prices are 10% off for vets.
https://www.lowes.com/l/in-store-services.html#MilitaryDiscountProgram
Pretty sure it's the same for Home Depot. My neighbor is a vet and always lectures me anytime I buy something without bringing him along for his discount. I tell him that while I appreciate his standing offer, I'm not a Vet and don't need a discount on every little purchase. That said, I've been up there with him enough times that I've never seen him turned down for a Vet discount with the one exception of an already discounted purchase. I don't know if different Home Depot stores have different policies though.
KevDen2005
02-21-2018, 15:50
Rag on HD, they don't give an anytime Vet discount like Lowes does...
I use my Vet discount every single time I'm in there
KevDen2005
02-21-2018, 15:52
Pretty sure it's the same for Home Depot. My neighbor is a vet and always lectures me anytime I buy something without bringing him along for his discount. I tell him that while I appreciate his standing offer, I'm not a Vet and don't need a discount on every little purchase. That said, I've been up there with him enough times that I've never seen him turned down for a Vet discount with the one exception of an already discounted purchase. I don't know if different Home Depot stores have different policies though.
If you buy a large amount of stuff through the pro desk they might offer something like 12 to 15 percent off. They won't let you use your Vet discount in addition. I've only tried this once, it was at Lowes. I haven't seen anyone else try it.
DenverGP
02-21-2018, 17:44
I use my Vet discount every single time I'm in there
Home depot only gives the discount to Retired or Disabled vets. They only get a discount to all vets on veterans day.
Lowes discount applies to all vets all the time. (just had to sign up thru their site that can apparently verify veteran status).
Great-Kazoo
02-21-2018, 18:21
Home depot only gives the discount to Retired or Disabled vets. They only get a discount to all vets on veterans day.
Lowes discount applies to all vets all the time. (just had to sign up thru their site that can apparently verify veteran status).
I carry a small (very) small copy of my dd214 with me.
Home depot only gives the discount to Retired or Disabled vets. They only get a discount to all vets on veterans day.
Lowes discount applies to all vets all the time. (just had to sign up thru their site that can apparently verify veteran status).
This. It's been reported that HD can also vary policy by store but one wouldn't expect corporate to tolerate that. RonDog here worked there for a spell between jobs, he might know more.
I carry a small (very) small copy of my dd214 with me.
DMV accepted the one on my phone when I showed it to him.
I keep a full and a partially redacted copy handy. There's some shit they don't always need to see. Name, discharge status is usually all they need. They sure as hell don't need to see my SSN...
OneDrive FTW.
KevDen2005
02-21-2018, 19:25
I’m not retired or disabled and I get the discount every time from Home Depot. I have old military ID. I know people that have a copy of their DD214
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.3 Copyright © 2025 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.