View Full Version : Hawaii False Alarm
hollohas
01-13-2018, 14:11
Hawaii"accidentally" sent out this emergency alert today. Took almost 20 minutes to cancel.
Whoa.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180113/1b2729ca6f0ef1c16714ab13e19b7fb3.jpg
www.dailywire.com/news/25831/false-emergency-ballistic-missile-alert-causes-frank-camp
Batteriesnare
01-13-2018, 14:14
Oops.
Wow how scary would that be.
Odds on Dim state employee being fired?
Already see people calling out Trump for not immediately calming people in that ~20 minutes. Wasn't his alert!
THIS IS NOT A DRILL
[ROFL2]
#FakeNews and now #FakeAlerts
theGinsue
01-13-2018, 14:22
I'm sure most of Hawaii is going to smell like poop for a while due to all of the folks shitting themselves.
How do you "accidentally" send something like that?! Wowza....
BushMasterBoy
01-13-2018, 14:25
If it happens, we are all back to active duty.
hollohas
01-13-2018, 14:39
Words from people there is it was crazy. Boats heading out to sea. Planes taking off. Crazy.
Hawaii has been updating it's alert systems recently. I wonder if they were doing a dry run test of the text alert system and accidentally made it live.
The scary part is the fact that they even need a warning available for incoming missiles.
I bet the missile defense radar operators, if they were told about an alert, were highly confused why it wasn’t popping on their systems. Lol
.455_Hunter
01-13-2018, 15:14
How you can send this message without triple confirmation steps is beyond me.
Oops, I clicked on the wrong icon doesn't cut it.
I wonder how many people just replied "STOP" then went back to sleep. Doesn't sound like many.
She received a system sms on her cellular and now she seeks shelter by the seashore, or security services will certainly see her bones in the sea floor.
Zundfolge
01-13-2018, 16:01
I suspect there were many grass skirts and Bermuda shorts filled with used spam this morning.
hollohas
01-13-2018, 16:12
https://youtu.be/L1CxlyMoFRs
FF to 0:43 for explanation...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9cXToUARbvc
Hell, I'da probably slept through it.....
newracer
01-13-2018, 18:04
I have family there on vacation right now, they were freaking out.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
KevDen2005
01-13-2018, 18:42
If it happens, we are all back to active duty.
Nah, I'm too fat
FF to 0:43 for explanation...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9cXToUARbvc
That's a good manager right there. When pressed for a name for 'who pushed the wrong button', he took it on himself that he's ultimately responsible. When seconds count, adding multiple layers of 'oversight' will slow response time. They probably just need a slight tweak to their process.
If it happens, we are all back to active duty.
Who's "we", kemosabe?
KevDen2005
01-13-2018, 19:12
They knew it was false after 40 minutes because that's about how long it should take an ICBM to get there.
Zundfolge
01-13-2018, 19:25
Would be hilarious if this kerfuffle ended up causing Hawaii to go for Trump next election :p
Wonder if there were many “end of the world, let’s go for it bad decisions”? [ROFL1]
Most of my family still lives on Oahu and I haven’t spoken to them yet. I have read on friends Facebook pages of people being told to get inside of buildings and lock the doors....WTF good will that do during a nuclear attack? They’re already blaming Trump. Embarrassing.
Zundfolge
01-13-2018, 19:34
Of course now if Kim launches for real, many Hawaiians will ignore it and not take shelter.
Seems to me this is a good opportunity to take stock of reactions and adjust training.
hollohas
01-13-2018, 19:53
Saw a video of folks opening a manhole cover and climbing in. Seems like a pretty smart idea. Like a bomb shelter.
Saw a video of folks opening a manhole cover and climbing in. Seems like a pretty smart idea. Like a bomb shelter.
To be poached slowly instead of incinerated quickly. If not, zero protection from fallout.
NBC is nasty. I’d rather be clear or die quickly.
Most of the Civil Defense info/drills in our country were 100% BS. Designed to comfort the masses that the gov knew they couldn’t protect.
https://gabfiles.blob.core.windows.net/image/5a5aaf860b42f.jpeg
To be poached slowly instead of incinerated quickly. If not, zero protection from fallout.
NBC is nasty. I’d rather be clear or die quickly.
Most of the Civil Defense info/drills in our country were 100% BS. Designed to comfort the masses that the gov knew they couldn’t protect.
I remember asking my folks about hiding under tables for a nuke. They had more faith and trust for those in power at the time. I would not make a good student in that era. Would ask too many logical questions.
And I agree, find point of impact and wait. Would rather be vaporized than slowly rot away if getting clear was not an option.
And if it was from rocket man, I would be 1st to post a video of the dud
hollohas
01-13-2018, 21:17
To be poached slowly instead of incinerated quickly. If not, zero protection from fallout.
NBC is nasty. I’d rather be clear or die quickly.
Most of the Civil Defense info/drills in our country were 100% BS. Designed to comfort the masses that the gov knew they couldn’t protect.Agreed, no protection from fallout. But it showed at least some people were thinking instead of running around all crazy like.
Agreed, no protection from fallout. But it showed at least some people were thinking instead of running around all crazy like.
Yup. And there were a lot of scared people.
I remember asking my folks about hiding under tables for a nuke. They had more faith and trust for those in power at the time. I would not make a good student in that era. Would ask too many logical questions.
My mom would tell those stories during the Cuban Crisis. They had drills to hide under desks and cover with textbooks. In a DPS elementary school full of windows.
Aloha_Shooter
01-13-2018, 22:24
My sister runs a physical therapy clinic. She texted me to ask if I knew anything about it ... unfortunately, I didn't see the text until just about when they found out it was false. She said people were flying out of stores and speeding down roads and she had staff and patients in a panic even after news about it being false came out. For some reason, I'm not surprised the state didn't have two-person integrity over an alert system like that -- after all, they elect idiots like Tulsi Gabbard and Brian Schaatz.
Bailey Guns
01-13-2018, 23:35
Yeah, we did those "duck and cover" drills in elementary school. We'd crawl under our desks with our arms over our heads. In junior high we went into the hallways and sat against the cinder block walls...you know...cause desks and walls in the 60s were nuclear proof.
Yeah, we did those "duck and cover" drills in elementary school. We'd crawl under our desks with our arms over our heads. In junior high we went into the hallways and sat against the cinder block walls...you know...cause desks and walls in the 60s were nuclear proof.
C'mon, we knew enough in our youth that it only made it easier to do a body count.
Slugjunkie
01-14-2018, 00:40
Well, someone will be selling t-shirts on the corner with “I survived the missle scare of 2018”
Well, someone will be selling t-shirts on the corner with “I survived the missle scare of 2018”
[word]
Or selling surf boards painted like missles.
hunterhawk
01-14-2018, 01:38
Am I the only one who wonders if this maybe wasn't an accident? Maybe they did get a real warning or it got shot down or didnt make it.... just saying :-)
Carry on
Is there a resource for locating the nearest nuke/bomb/fallout shelter in a given state for those that don’t have one of there own? What would the members here do if this same message had been sent to them yesterday here in CO?
Personally had I been home I would have gotten in the basement with the wife and kids. Not really any time to go anywhere and at least we’d be together.
I wouldn’t want to be on any city road, highway, or interstate if I could help it, If I was I would attempt to find the sturdiest concrete structure nearby and get into/under it.
If I would have been at work I would walk the 1/4 mile to the nuke shelter, praying it was a false alarm the entire time and try and get through to my wife via call or text.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
GilpinGuy
01-14-2018, 08:11
What would the members here do if this same message had been sent to them yesterday here in CO?
At home: Not many options up here. Just try to get in touch with close family, tell them I loved them, and pray for the best. Then crack open a beer and hope to see a cool light show before being vaporized.
At work: Good question. Evacuate the casino. Gaming would need to stop so employees could go to one of the shelter areas. This is a good thought experiment and not one of the many covered in training. It's weird that I thought of the business end of things first. But as we saw, it could be a false alarm. CYA, even if you might be dead in a few minutes. LOL
Am I wrong for immediately wondering if it was hacked and the “accident” claims are just gov trying to CYA?
StagLefty
01-14-2018, 08:54
At my age I don't think I'd panic and probaly wouldn't consider surviving a nuclear attack. Say a prayer for humanity and relax.
Great-Kazoo
01-14-2018, 09:17
What would the members here do if this same message had been sent to them yesterday here in CO?
At my age I don't think I'd panic and probaly wouldn't consider surviving a nuclear attack. Say a prayer for humanity and relax.
Likewise.
Hope our daughter was doing what she could in the hills of CA, then break out the smoker and grill. Cook or smoke all perishable food, then PARTY TIME.
When the roulette wheel of life picks your number.
Doesn't matter if you're between business meetings or your significant others legs . Your done.
Some good info here. Basically shelter in place (see diagram). Radiation won't be nearly as bad if it's an aerial detonation. Don't waste money on potassium iodide pills.
http://www.sciencealert.com/pills-drug-nuclear-attack-fallout-survival-gear-2018
Aloha_Shooter
01-14-2018, 09:55
Everyone is also forgetting that the risk in fallout is in long-term exposure. The immediate blast effects will be mitigated by the landscape -- in Hawaii, there are a lot of "mountains" and ridgelines to block the immediate blast. Trade winds will generally blow dust from a Pearl Harbor/Hickam impact out to sea (but a Kaneohe impact will be blown into the mountains and eventually over them into Honolulu proper).
A sewer might provide some shelter from fallout but I'd be worried about its ability to take the shockwave -- really wouldn't want it collapsing on me. I told my sister that if they get a real one, she's probably got about 10 minutes to head up into one of the valleys to get some protection from the blast and shockwave and she can worry about fallout after that. There are tunnels in Diamond Head Crater that were built to withstand bombing and artillery during WW II --- not nuke rated but then again, we're talking about the DPRK, chances are that it's going to fail anyway.
First things first, get somewhere that can protect you from the blast and shockwave before you worry about the fallout.
[snip]
If we ever are "nuked" something to remember is the chance of it actually landing anywhere near enough to you to kill you is pretty damn slim. So you might better take some preventative measures and shelter in place instead of standing out there like an idiot. Lots of misinformation in this thread. PS: A sewer would probably offer tremendous radiation shielding*, as would certain floors on even a multi-story above-ground parking garage. I'm not sure where people are getting their information from - movies?
*Unless the sewer had a lot of storm runoff/overflow running through it, then it would be veeeery veeeery bad for you.
ETA: http://nuclearsecrecy.com/nukemap/?&kt=150&lat=21.3094772&lng=-157.8466032&hob_opt=1&hob_psi=5&hob_ft=5443&ff=50&zm=11 And keep in mind, Oahu is a tiny island, a fraction of the size of Hawaii (main island)
I assumed a blast radius (or closer) scenario. Putting your kid in the sewer like it's baby Moses on the Nile isn't going to save the kid.
I like that link, played with it before, but always wondered about the yield scenarios. One has to assume we know what NK has/doesn't have.
My luck I’d be working when I found out Denver was going to be hit. I suppose my best bet would be to get in our tornado shelter and hope for the best. Beyond that I wouldn’t really know what to do so I’d just have to wing it. Getting in touch with my loved ones would probably be impossible so I’d just have to hope we could all meet up back at the house when it seems safe to do so.
Bailey Guns
01-14-2018, 11:01
I guess I'm like the guy that sent the text to his son saying everyone cleared out of the breakfast buffet when they got the message...so he went back for seconds.
China or Russia wants to launch a few...yeah, I'd worry. NK? Not so much. As a matter of fact, I'd turn on the TV. Because I wanna see what retaliation on that "shithole" country would look like.
Zundfolge
01-14-2018, 11:13
The truth is, the things that our own government will do to us if we ever get a nuke slung at us by the Norks are going to be significantly worse than the nuke itself (well for everyone except those at ground zero).
It will be the suspension of our constitutional rights, civil liberties and property rights for some time to come. The ensuing martial law could trigger a collapse of the civil society and possible war (as divided as we are now, I don't expect well see a 9/11 style of coming together).
Although to be fair, watching how the Hawaiians reacted to what they believed for more than half an hour was incoming mass death gives me hope. Send that same text message out to the general Los Angeles area and I bet you have riots, looting and unrest for a week.
I'm a bit disturbed at how lightly everyone takes North Korea. It's never a good idea to under estimate an opponent.
Bailey Guns
01-14-2018, 11:36
It's not taking NK lightly. It's having a tremendous faith in our military's capability to handle the NK threat. Big difference.
I don't mean to point at you spefically, especially since most of us here are just internet chlubs and it doesn't matter what we think, I just hope the military and government isn't taking any chances.
KevDen2005
01-14-2018, 11:50
Yeah, I take nothing lightly. And to some extent, we might be overconfident in the US.
Another surprise to most people: Nuclear winter doesn't exist. (Even if all the worlds nukes were launched). It was quite literally a russian propaganda ploy to get US citizens to have a negative perception for the use of any nuke. The KGB carefully manipulated a scientist, and got bogus science published. The researcher was an unaware patsy, but they managed to make it go mainstream and embedded in every facet of American nuclear-thought even though the science backing it was completely false.
Don't believe me? Compare for instance, some of the very large volcanos that have erupted to which even the TSAR can't begin to compare insofar as energy release. The debris ejection for some of these mega-volcanos by themselves pretty much surpasses that of all the worlds nukes.
Would nuclear war be terrible? Absolutely, not dismissing that. Millions die. However, the "extinction" event wouldn't actually happen. Growing a third arm out of your back? More likely...
You know, an extra hand would be very helpful on many daily tasks
You know, an extra hand would be very helpful on many daily tasks
I saw that you edited your original post here. Let me just say that your comment about the possible applications of the stranger was much more funny.
Bailey Guns
01-14-2018, 12:01
The truth is, the things that our own government will do to us if we ever get a nuke slung at us by the Norks are going to be significantly worse than the nuke itself (well for everyone except those at ground zero).
It will be the suspension of our constitutional rights, civil liberties and property rights for some time to come. The ensuing martial law could trigger a collapse of the civil society and possible war (as divided as we are now, I don't expect well see a 9/11 style of coming together).
Although to be fair, watching how the Hawaiians reacted to what they believed for more than half an hour was incoming mass death gives me hope. Send that same text message out to the general Los Angeles area and I bet you have riots, looting and unrest for a week.
Why would martial law be instituted if NK fired a missile at the US? Especially if it wasn't a successful strike?
I guess I just disagree on the outcome you envision.
KevDen2005
01-14-2018, 12:01
I saw that you edited your original post here. Let me just say that your comment about the possible applications of the stranger was much more funny.
Everyone was thinking it. It might as well be said!
Zundfolge
01-14-2018, 12:11
Why would martial law be instituted if NK fired a missile at the US? Especially if it wasn't a successful strike?
I guess I just disagree on the outcome you envision.
Martial law only happens if its a successful strike.
Bailey Guns
01-14-2018, 12:15
I don't mean to point at you spefically, especially since most of us here are just internet chlubs and it doesn't matter what we think, I just hope the military and government isn't taking any chances.
Sorry...I wasn't offended by what you said and didn't mean to sound that way. To expand a little... We were told how awesome and mighty Saddam's military was prior to Desert Storm and the Gulf War by talking heads and "experts", day in and day out. Military leaders were quietly saying "yes", he did have a substantial military capability but they were prepared for it. Turns out, he had a huge military capability...that was overwhelmed and slaughtered in a matter of hours by a much superior force we moved half way around the world.
NK seems to me to be similar. For a small country they have a massive military...with little capability to project it anywhere but within a relatively short distance from home. They don't have the logistics or supply capability to sustain that military for long in a war. Obviously, the threat to the south and to Japan will be far greater than it will be to the US mainland. Personally, I think "Rocket Man" wants a nuke more as a deterrent to a US first strike of any sort...even though that sounds a little ironic and backwards. He knows as long as he has that capability we'll be less likely to strike. He can't possibly believe he's going to win a nuclear exchange in any scenario...not even he's that delusional. He has to know that our response to a NK strike will be so overwhelming and devastating that little will be left of his country...even if it's just a massive conventional strike.
I know my first-hand knowledge is dangerously outdated. But when I was in I was in a position to know a bit more than some about the Soviet capability back during the cold war days. I'll be honest...what I heard about Soviet military capability from "experts" in the media and what I saw in my job were two completely different things.
Bailey Guns
01-14-2018, 12:18
Martial law only happens if its a successful strike.
Maybe localized...but I don't think it would be a nation-wide thing.
Desert Storm was exactly what I was thinking of actually. Much prefer to find out we over estimated than under estimated.
Would nuclear war be terrible? Absolutely, not dismissing that. Millions die. However, the "extinction" event wouldn't actually happen. Insofar as the world is concerned, it wouldn't even be a fart. Growing a third arm out of your back? More likely...
ETA/TLDR While I take nothing lightly, I do also understand that the vast majority of American's perception of nuclear war is quite wrong and premised on such crazy shit as the above.
Bigger concern than a hit on Denver is a detonation 300 miles over Kansas. The results of an EMP attack would dwarf any near ground blast, just a lot more slow motion.
Yeah, I take nothing lightly. And to some extent, we might be overconfident in the US.
Another surprise to most people: Nuclear winter doesn't exist. (Even if all the worlds nukes were launched).
...but...but....Climate Change! If people can unintentionally change the climate on the entire planet, just imagine what we could do if we intentionally did as much damage to Gaia as we possibly could? [Sarcasm2]
Humans desperately seek significance in the universe. The 1980 eruption of Mount St. Helens - The total energy output, on May 18, was equivalent to 400 million tons of TNT - approximately 20,000 Hiroshima-size atomic bombs.
Zundfolge
01-14-2018, 14:08
Nuclear winter doesn't exist.
And Carl Sagen KNEW he was lying when he made it up too. His justification was basically; if lying to people about Nuclear Winter helped stave off Nuclear conflict, it would be worth it.
Bailey Guns
01-14-2018, 14:32
Scientists lying about computer models predicting effects on the atmosphere due to various reasons... That just sounds far-fetched to me.
KevDen2005
01-14-2018, 15:07
And Carl Sagen KNEW he was lying when he made it up too. His justification was basically; if lying to people about Nuclear Winter helped stave off Nuclear conflict, it would be worth it.
When you guys post stuff like that, if you have a source it would be awesome. I always need fuel with sources.
Also, Foxtrot, in addition to the already posted link, do you have some good sources on Nuclear attack effects and preventative measures for the citizen to protect themselves. I.e. iodine, how to take it, what protects against fallout, etc?
zimagold
01-14-2018, 15:13
FEMA NCR Key Response Planning Factors for the Aftermath of Nuclear Terrorism (2011)
http://www.fas.org/irp/agency/dhs/fema/ncr.pdf
Decent read based on modern simulation for small yield device. Zone effects would scale up for larger devices.
KevDen2005
01-14-2018, 15:15
FEMA NCR Key Response Planning Factors for the Aftermath of Nuclear Terrorism (2011)
http://www.fas.org/irp/agency/dhs/fema/ncr.pdf
Decent read based on modern simulation for small yield device. Zone effects would scale up for larger devices.
Thanks. I do agree that EMP is probably a more likely danger to Colorado, but you never know and I'm curious.
BushMasterBoy
01-14-2018, 16:16
My father was stationed at Johnston Atoll. 1964-1965. He died from multiple myeloma in 2004 due to exposure from a nuclear weapons accident over the island. When he returned from the island, he was covered in "beta burns". As a child I used to play with his dosimeters. I believe the data produced from these atomic weapons is still classified TOP SECRET. It was known as Program 437. A lot of the information is NOT available on the internet. It is possible to build a very dirty nuclear weapon that will leave a large area uninhabitable for a very long time. Ionizing radiation is a very bad thing,if ingested or breathed in. One microgram of radioactive bomb grade plutonium in your lung, usually will result in a cancerous tumor the size of your fist. This is just my personal knowledge and most of my Nuclear,Chemical & Biological training in the military emphasized surviving a chemical attack. If your area is subjected to a nuclear attack, you will have to evacuate. The fallout if ingested in any way, will greatly shorten your life. A gas mask is essential, as is a geiger counter. The geiger counter is to make sure anything you eat or drink is free of radioactive fallout. I prefer the M-40 gas mask and the Gamma Scout geiger counter.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starfish_Prime
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnston_Atoll
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Program_437
[snip]
NK seems to me to be similar. For a small country they have a massive military...with little capability to project it anywhere but within a relatively short distance from home. They don't have the logistics or supply capability to sustain that military for long in a war. Obviously, the threat to the south and to Japan will be far greater than it will be to the US mainland. Personally, I think "Rocket Man" wants a nuke more as a deterrent to a US first strike of any sort...even though that sounds a little ironic and backwards. He knows as long as he has that capability we'll be less likely to strike. He can't possibly believe he's going to win a nuclear exchange in any scenario...not even he's that delusional. He has to know that our response to a NK strike will be so overwhelming and devastating that little will be left of his country...even if it's just a massive conventional strike.
[snip]
Without China (Russia) they're little more than a speed bump. And I can't believe China has let Lil' Kim take it this far. Should anyone get too froggy China either loses it's economy (based on US trade) or secedes regional power and allows us to attack. That's a lot of boat rocking for Beijing to tolerate.
I'd take a do over as long as we don't have to rebuild it.
https://i.imgur.com/9yucXi2.jpg
This "nation building" bullshit is taking the sting out of war. If a #ShitHoleCountry wants to kamikaze itself they can rebuild their own nation.
But I do want our remains brought home. That ground doesn't deserve them.
OtterbatHellcat
01-14-2018, 17:55
I'm a bit disturbed at how lightly everyone takes North Korea. It's never a good idea to under estimate an opponent.
I don't take the psycho lightly, but that whole area would be destroyed if he pulled any shit....and I believe that he knows that as stupid as he seems.
Martial law only happens if its a successful strike.
People here riot over really stupid stuff at the drop of a hat already. I think the indication of impending strike spread amongst a vast majority of citizens here at home would send them off the deep end. Riots galore with martial law inevitable. IMO.
Aloha_Shooter
01-14-2018, 17:56
Irving, I don't underestimate North Korea's belligerence but they have a very limited ability to project power and their missile engineering has had problems. They got where they did thanks to the intransigence and incompetence of the Clinton and Obama administrations but it's still not even comparable to the US or Russia in 1948.
As far as Project Starfish goes, what BushmasterBoy's father and countless other servicemen went through was a tragedy but they suffered what they did because we didn't know what we were playing with back then. The US actually had plans for nuclear artillery back then (not to far back in fact). If North Korea launched a missile at Hawaii and it actually managed to hit Pearl Harbor with an operational nuclear warhead, our casualties would be tremendous but I don't think the blast effects would reach as far as Kapiolani Park to the east and probably not as far as Mililani to the north.
I would guess the blast would channel up the valley that H-3 passes through but Nuuanu, Manoa, Palolo, and areas further east would be shielded by the ridgelines. I wouldn't want to be in one of the houses along the ridgeline due to line-of-sight radiation. With normal tradewinds, fallout should be blown out to sea, mitigating some of the immediate exposure effects but creating long term problems for the sea life and anyone living off the sea.
I hope the idiots making up Hawaii's congressional delegation got a wake-up call from this but I'm not holding my breath. Schatz and Gabbard are both at Maxine Waters-level of stupidity (and the bad news is they are both much much younger than Waters or Pelosi).
KevDen2005
01-14-2018, 19:03
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-QWXvNFWrc
I thought this was a pretty cool time lapse video of every nuclear explosion
I saw this after watching KevDen2005's video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFiBXFFzT5c
I saw this after watching KevDen2005's video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFiBXFFzT5c
That is a really cool vid!!!
It helped when they added Everest. Wish they could have added an "avg metropolis" for scale as well.
People see pictures of the aftermath of Hiroshima and get the impression that the bomb was more devastating than it really was. The firestorm set off by the detonation is what did the greatest damage. That can happen when you make your homes from wood and paper.
ETA: Hawaii worker who pushed button reassigned after bungled missile alert (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/hawaii-worker-who-pushed-button-reassigned-after-bungled-missile-alert/ar-AAuJp4y)
I will give it to the island culture. They do take responsibility. Mr. Miyagi stepped up right away. Now this guy. Impressive.
People see pictures of the aftermath of Hiroshima and get the impression that the bomb was more devastating than it really was. The firestorm set off by the detonation is what did the greatest damage. That can happen when you make your homes from wood and paper.
ETA: Hawaii worker who pushed button reassigned after bungled missile alert (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/hawaii-worker-who-pushed-button-reassigned-after-bungled-missile-alert/ar-AAuJp4y)
Reassigned? Wow. Seems appropriate. [Coffee]
I've been in many positions where a "oopsie" like that would result in the prompt delivery of an empty box and last paycheck. And none of those positions involved telling people they were going to die.
BushMasterBoy
01-15-2018, 14:47
I just wonder how many babies will be born of this?
I've been in many positions where a "oopsie" like that would result in the prompt delivery of an empty box and last paycheck. And none of those positions involved telling people they were going to die.
Pretty hard to fire gov. employees, even for cause.
Reassigned while the “investigation” is completed. Meaning damage control to CYA from the States lackluster warning system protocol. Lazy ass mentality runs deep over there.
SuperiorDG
01-15-2018, 16:40
So they have a warning but don't inform the public what to do in case of said warning. [facepalm]
BushMasterBoy
01-15-2018, 16:46
In the early 70's at a nuclear bomber base, I remember seeing this exact notice in my dads office. By then he was the manager of the NCO & O' Clubs.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_n7RltmTdk-g/TUndVEpa6kI/AAAAAAAAZ6k/znz46ywjB-M/s1600/Nuclear%2Bposter%2Bfrom%2Bthe%2B60s.jpg
68Charger
01-15-2018, 17:02
So they have a warning but don't inform the public what to do in case of said warning. [facepalm]
I don't know about you, but I don't need a gov't official to tell me what to do when there are incoming nukes on an island...[shithitsfan]
RblDiver
01-16-2018, 00:14
So, you know how someone initially said it may have been a hack or cruel prank?
I know that it indeed wasn't, but with this new info, hack is...plausible. Why?
Here's a pic of the Hawaii center from AP.
73154
If you zoom in, you get:
73155
Yeah, the person had their password written on a sticky note, which got put into a picture that got put onto the web. And the password was "Warningpoint2" (the name of the agency is Warning Point, so yeah, tough password that).
The above is a technique used to convey classified info without typing it. Also used by idiots by mistake.
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KevDen2005
01-16-2018, 07:55
The more i think about it the more I think it was an intentional drill to really see readiness or reaction. No one takes the words, 'This is a drill' seriously.
Martinjmpr
01-16-2018, 08:58
I believe NK's biggest nuke detonation to date has been around 30kt. That's roughly 50% more than the Nagasaki and Trinity bombs (each about 20k) and twice the Hiroshima bomb which was 10 - 13kt.
NK claims to have made a functioning two-stage (thermonuclear, i.e. a hydrogen bomb) but AFAIK they've never actually tested one. Just by way of reference, most modern 2 stage warheads are in the 200kt - 600kt yield range. The biggest device the US ever exploded was a 15mt device in a test called Castle Bravo in 1954.
I'm also not convinced that the NorKs have the ability to (a) make a functioning 2 stage weapon that is (b) small enough and rugged enough to put into the nosecone of a missile that they can then (c) fire successfully and (d) detonate within a reasonable distance of the intended target.
Even if they have MRBMs with nuke warheads, the only thing they can really do with them is use them as a deterrent to a ground invasion. The instant those missiles are fired from the launch facilities their role as a deterrent has failed and all they've really done is to guarantee the utter destruction of North Korea.
Koreans aren't Muslims who have no fear of death because they think they're going to paradise. Lil' Kim knows that once he's dead, he's dead, and that goes for his shithole country and the Kim Il Sung dynasty, too.
Aloha_Shooter
01-16-2018, 09:59
People see pictures of the aftermath of Hiroshima and get the impression that the bomb was more devastating than it really was. The firestorm set off by the detonation is what did the greatest damage. That can happen when you make your homes from wood and paper.
Hawaii is tropical. Most homes are made of wood there but even a brick home isn't going to do well with blast effects. Range and insulating geography will help but a 30 kt nuke hitting Pearl Harbor would still be quite devastating. One aimed at Pearl but hitting a bit further east would be even worse.
They found the true cause; it was malicious advertising! (https://gfycat.com/QueasyGrandIriomotecat)
Also, Japan did the same thing today...
https://edition.cnn.com/2018/01/16/asia/japan-false-missile-alarm-intl/index.html?sr=twCNN011618japan-false-missile-alarm-intl1107AMStory
JohnnyDrama
01-16-2018, 11:43
They found the true cause; it was malicious advertising! (https://gfycat.com/QueasyGrandIriomotecat)
Also, Japan did the same thing today...
https://edition.cnn.com/2018/01/16/asia/japan-false-missile-alarm-intl/index.html?sr=twCNN011618japan-false-missile-alarm-intl1107AMStory
Like calling in a bomb threat to a school or public building....
...I'm also not convinced that the NorKs have the ability to (a) make a functioning 2 stage weapon that is (b) small enough and rugged enough to put into the nosecone of a missile that they can then (c) fire successfully and (d) detonate within a reasonable distance of the intended target....
Meanwhile, a container ship quietly steams toward the mainland....
No, probably just a mistake on the part of the button monitor.
It's not taking NK lightly. It's having a tremendous faith in our military's capability to handle the NK threat. Big difference.
I don't have "tremendous" faith in our anti-ballistic capabilities- but having been privy to information regarding some of the classified systems we employ (or did back in '07), I'm pretty confident in our capabilities to thwart any attempt by some 3rd world nuclear power that can't even feed their own troops. Considering KJI's guidance technology is nowhere near where we were in the 1980's, I'm not too worried he'll be able to accurately, or even successfully deploy a ICBM on US Soil. The likelihood is pretty low. Not non-existent, as you only need to be lucky once with nukes.
BushMasterBoy
01-16-2018, 13:00
Even if we destroy the incoming warhead 10 miles altitude over Denver, we will still have bomb grade nuclear material scattered over the city. It will eventually kill people and devalue the area. Personally, I don't think he will ever launch, unless we invade the hermit kingdom. He just doesn't want to end up like Saddam Hussein.
Even if we destroy the incoming warhead 10 miles altitude over Denver, we will still have bomb grade nuclear material scattered over the city. It will eventually kill people and devalue the area. Personally, I don't think he will ever launch, unless we invade the hermit kingdom. He just doesn't want to end up like Saddam Hussein.
The Cobalt Bomb was in the vid that Irving posted...
https://www.ar-15.co/threads/166616-Hawaii-False-Alarm?p=2112465&viewfull=1#post2112465
Same effect. Fascinating and scary stuff. Almost worse than a blast that immediately kills because it would demobilize us dealing with the slow and steady illness/casualties.
thvigil11
01-16-2018, 13:28
I saw NBC new last night had an exclusive tour of the OPs center the day before the fake alert went out. Sounded a little too convenient on the timing for me.
I saw NBC new last night had an exclusive tour of the OPs center the day before the fake alert went out. Sounded a little too convenient on the timing for me.
Perhaps...
The reporting on this incident coming out now was that it was a test, and the operator hit the wrong button, live alert, instead of test alert. And there's word that Japan had it's own false alarm. I find that a very odd coincidence- which I don't believe in coincidences. "Strange things are afoot at the Circle K."
hollohas
01-16-2018, 15:18
It seems like more than a simple coincidence that Japan made the same mistake today...
Zundfolge
01-16-2018, 15:53
Anonymous Conservative has an interesting theory about this whole mess.
https://www.anonymousconservative.com/blog/why-has-trump-provoked-north-korea/
Why Has Trump Provoked North Korea?
Posted on January 16, 2018 by Anonymous Conservative
I was thinking about this. Does it make sense? Who cares what that little runt does in his own little fiefdom? We knew he was never going to nuke anyone, even if he did develop the weapons and the delivery system. And yet Trump has had Mattis talking about the necessity of taking the casualties to raid North Korea with boots on the ground. The US military has engaged in provocative exercises with South Korea just over the border. There were leaks of US Special Forces specially trained and poised to launch decapitation raids. There was talk preparing South Korea for the onslaught it would have to endure when we went in. Why all this effort?
Now Trump has purposely escalated that conflict to the point North Korea is actually threatening Pacific territories of the United States with Nuclear tipped missiles. It isn’t even good for Trump politically, because the leftists are panicked at the thought of nuclear war.
What if that was the point? The whole thing had nothing to do with North Korea. It was all about Hawaii. Once that threat rose high enough, NSA would have had to make sure it had a defined procedure to transfer their secure databases back the CONUS in the event Hawaii was going to be lost due to a Nuclear missile attack. And since a nuclear missile attack would happen so fast, those databases would have to have been shuttled back in record time – much faster than if there were just a Chinese land invasion. Maybe they laid more underseas cables, maybe they simply arranged under those conditions to take over the entire internet backbone for thirty minutes. However they did it, they had to make it so the entire thing came back to a location in CONUS in under 40 minutes. They would have run drills, to make sure everyone knew what they were doing and it happened right.
Then, once all the chess pieces are set, off goes the Hawaii Missile alert for mysterious unknown reasons, saying an incoming ballistic missile is about to strike, and it is not a drill. And all of a sudden, Donald Trump has God-like knowledge of every communication that has gone over the air or on a wire in the US in the last ten years.
Maybe the Deep State, which controls the US Intel apparatus, knew that the Hawaii facility would be slagged with White Phosphorus at the first hint of a raid. So they talked and texted freely, just like Strzok and Page, knowing the database was out of Trump’s reach in Hawaii, and could never affect them.
Until suddenly it wasn’t under their control in Hawaii, and the God Emperor suddenly had God-like knowledge of everything done to harm America and subvert her Democracy, and the evidence to prove it.
Suddenly those Checkmate tweets look an awful lot like they could have been taunts, which only hit home with the Deep State after President Trump took control of all the evidence he needs to drain the swamp once and for all. I could see them scratching their heads beforehand and dismissing the Checkmate tweets as bullshit, only to shit their pants once they realized what had just happened.
Checkmate. And it would be a case where the NSA surveillance was about to defeat white, until one move which reversed the game and turned everything around.
As a hypothesis, it is out there. But then again, this President is a man who dreams big, and never half-asses things.
KevDen2005
01-16-2018, 15:56
Even if we destroy the incoming warhead 10 miles altitude over Denver, we will still have bomb grade nuclear material scattered over the city. It will eventually kill people and devalue the area. Personally, I don't think he will ever launch, unless we invade the hermit kingdom. He just doesn't want to end up like Saddam Hussein.
If we devalue the area people could afford house again....
Anonymous Conservative has an interesting theory about this whole mess.
https://www.anonymousconservative.com/blog/why-has-trump-provoked-north-korea/
Uhhhh, if I wrote stuff like that, I'd sure want to be anonymous.
Bailey Guns
01-16-2018, 18:42
This whole mess reminds me... I'm often in little towns and they still do the old air raid sirens at noon on Fridays in many of them. Haven't heard those in years.
That's not an Air Raid siren, Carl. That's the lunch whistle. They likely sound it again at 1:00, telling people to go back to work.
Sheesh.... I thought you had small town cred. SMH
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Great-Kazoo
01-16-2018, 22:42
Perhaps...
The reporting on this incident coming out now was that it was a test, and the operator hit the wrong button, live alert, instead of test alert. And there's word that Japan had it's own false alarm. I find that a very odd coincidence- which I don't believe in coincidences. "Strange things are afoot at the Circle K."
Was it
C: Coincidence or C: Conspiracy
This whole mess reminds me... I'm often in little towns and they still do the old air raid sirens at noon on Fridays in many of them. Haven't heard those in years.
Airaid or tornado warnings? Denver still does the tornado warnings.
Bailey Guns
01-17-2018, 07:33
Trust me...the people eat lunch here a LOT more often than once a week! Most folks don't appear to be going hungry.
And it's a wavering tone...thought that was the air raid warning and the level tone was natural disaster. Maybe not. Tornadoes are pretty rare in this part of the state. This has made me curious so I looked it up. Only 3 in the county where I live since 1950 and a just a couple more in the surrounding counties since then.
[A9]
Supposedly what they are working with:
https://i.imgur.com/A6BZY6v.png
Trust me...the people eat lunch here a LOT more often than once a week! Most folks don't appear to be going hungry.
And it's a wavering tone...thought that was the air raid warning and the level tone was natural disaster. Maybe not. Tornadoes are pretty rare in this part of the state. This has made me curious so I looked it up. Only 3 in the county where I live since 1950 and a just a couple more in the surrounding counties since then.
[A9]
I read right past the "noon on Fridays" part. In the town I grew up in, they still do the 12/1 blasts on weekdays, and I think they do one at 8am, as well.
KevDen2005
01-17-2018, 08:35
That's not an Air Raid siren, Carl. That's the lunch whistle. They likely sound it again at 1:00, telling people to go back to work.
Sheesh.... I thought you had small town cred. SMH
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ours was the lunch whistle, tornado alarm, and volunteer fire department call up. The fire alarm was one really long one and the tornado was two shorter alarms.
Hopefully there wasn't a tornado at lunch. No one would know what to do
KevDen2005
01-17-2018, 08:36
Supposedly what they are working with:
https://i.imgur.com/A6BZY6v.png
Some guy walking by his desk said, "Just pick the PACOM one you idiot."
Zundfolge
01-17-2018, 09:57
Here's how it happened:
https://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/a8oWXYQ_460sv.mp4
.455_Hunter
01-17-2018, 10:02
Here's how it happened:
https://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/a8oWXYQ_460sv.mp4
Isn't that the truth!
thvigil11
01-17-2018, 10:48
Here's how it happened:
https://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/a8oWXYQ_460sv.mp4
[ROFL1]
Bailey Guns
01-17-2018, 14:28
That's the most plausible explanation so far.
That's the most plausible explanation so far.
I was thinking this. I hate when that happens!
Here's how it happened:
https://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/a8oWXYQ_460sv.mp4
Isn't this what AdBlock is for? [Coffee]
Aloha_Shooter
01-18-2018, 09:35
Supposedly what they are working with:
https://i.imgur.com/A6BZY6v.png
That is an incredibly stupid user interface screen.
That is an incredibly stupid user interface screen.
If I lived in Hawaii and had the choice between being good at my job or going surfing, I'd probably come up with that UI too. :)
FWIW, After over 40 years of software and human interface design, this is my take, even before I saw that awful screenshot (Note: I've removed a name from this post for this forum's consumption). Software folks may find this interesting, maybe not. But the book referenced is a must-read if you're involved in any kind of system design (software or otherwise):
================================================== =======
My theory on the Hawaii alert debacle, after reading a number of articles. Sorry if this is TL;DR for some…
A couple of years ago a colleague of mine, <redacted>, pointed me to a book called “The Field Guide to Understanding ‘Human Error’” (linked below). It made clear something that I had been vaguely aware of for many years. The benefit of clarity is that it makes you far more aware of the nuances of software (or any kind of) design.
Basically, the book posits that many accidents attributed to “human error” are in reality DESIGN errors. These design errors make a process so complex or mind-numbingly repetitive that eventually a mistake is made, the human is blamed, beaten with a stick (in Hawaii, reassigned) and the assumption is made that the punishment that was doled out will keep it from happening again. Usually even more process is created to surround the existing process, ostensibly “to assure it doesn’t happen again” (probably making things even more complex). Which means the root cause is never really fixed and the problem will most probably happen again. Which, when it happens again they’ll surround with more process, rinse and repeat until things are horribly complex (I’ve seen this first hand MANY times in my career).
Many designers think the ubiquitous “Are you sure?” (confirmation) question is a panacea to avoid making mistakes. It isn’t, and never has been. Need an example? I bet if you think not so hard you’ll come up with many examples of when you’ve clicked an “Are you sure?” box without really checking because you were so sure of the steps that got your there and you’re just tired of the “Are you sure?” step getting in your way. If you can’t think of any first-person examples, I’ll simply ask you to recall how many times you’ve clicked on the “Accept terms of service” box without reading the terms of service.
“But this is important, you’d check!” is your counter. No, after doing something the same thing day after day, eventually someone will have an off day and automatically click “Are you sure?”
What happened in Hawaii? In a nutshell, the explanation is: “At shift change they run an internal message test. The employee selected the wrong template (send message to everyone instead of internally) and then accidentally clicked the confirm box.”
NO! He did not ACCIDENTALLY click the “confirm” box, he DELIBERATELY and AUTOMATICALLY clicked the “confirm” box! He ACCIDENTALLY selected the wrong template, and by the time the “confirm” box came up, whatever difference between the internal and external message screens was so subtle he never noticed it!
The solution? Even as I type I’m sure there’s someone in Hawaii making the wrong decision and putting some BS solution in place like “Three people must be present and concur that the ‘confirm’ box may be clicked”. No. That’s not fixing the root problem. Several root problem solutions are possible, but IMHO the most simple and robust is to get rid of the “confirm” box for internal test messages. This is for two reasons:
Internal messages are no harm, no foul events. If an internal message is sent accidentally, no problem.
But more importantly, because tests (internal notification) never ask for confirmation, the operator will become habituated to THAT process (no confirmation) at shift change. Select template, test message goes out internally. If a message is sent accidentally, so what? It’s internal. BUT, if an external message is selected, a “confirm” box will pop up. This will NOT be part of the normal routine (like it is now) causing the operator pause and CLEARLY making them aware that this is not the normal shift change process and the message is going externally.
To conclude: The reassigned employee was a scapegoat, the design is at fault. Get rid of a confirmation box on INTERNAL message tests and you need not surround the shift change test process with even more [BS] process.
Thank you <redacted>:
https://www.amazon.com/Field-Guide-Understanding-Human-Error/dp/1472439058/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1516122852&sr=8-1&keywords=understanding+human+error
DenverGP
01-18-2018, 12:43
The poorly designed/implemented system is what you get when software development is out-sourced / off-shored / done by the lowest bidder.
Basically, the "specification" probably had the this crappy design, and they hired code-monkeys instead of software developers to write the software. A skilled software developer analyzes the requirements and pushes back on bad design rather than just following a shitty spec. But a skilled software developer costs more.
I don't know that it was the case in the Hawaii software, but this is the type of crap I see constantly where code was done off-shore or by a contracting firm using cheap H1B labor.
Measure twice. Cut once....
Aloha_Shooter
01-18-2018, 15:46
Not just visual distinguishment ... the test and real world buttons should be clearly separated as well as marked. Put one set on the left, one on the right or one on top, one on bottom. Make the operator perform a conscious act to move from test environment to real world and design it so they can't just accidentally hit the wrong one by accidentally jostling the mouse. The point about not asking for confirmation for internal tests so the operator is habituated to a different set of actions is also a good one.
theGinsue
01-18-2018, 21:35
Best ways to make UI's like that are to make dramatic visual distinguishment and simplify options to the minimum at each step, ordered in the process of thought. E.g. instead of all the links, it should start with e.g. "Internal Tests" or "Real Alarms" - next screen looks normal if internal tests, or red background if real alarms, with derivative sets for each.
When shit happens, the brains first question is going to be "Should I send for real?" so it needs to start with that binary question on the software.
When I saw the screen shot in CavSct's post this is exactly what I was thinking. Separate the Test and Real World options to different screens and use a red background for the Real World stuff so the operators mind has to engage and recognize the significant difference between the 2 types of messages BEFORE it gets sent.
That list of message options was prime for a failure to occur.
Cross posting this to funny pictures. This is out of a duty log book from the Marines at Kaneohe Bay. 73196
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Aloha_Shooter
01-30-2018, 15:53
Well, this is a twist I didn't see happening: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/01/30/hawaii-worker-who-sent-false-missile-attack-alert-is-fired-emergency-management-leader-resigns.html
I figured he'd be fired as a scapegoat for the Hawaii State administration's inadequacies and lunacies but they're now saying he intentionally sent the message out after missing the "EXERCISE EXERCISE EXERCISE" on changeover? WTH ... all the more reason the state screwed the pooch on this one for not requiring two-person integrity on an alert like this.
BushMasterBoy
01-30-2018, 15:57
No comment.
clodhopper
01-30-2018, 16:29
He had a history of confusing drills with real life and froze up after issuing the warning? Sounds like they had the wrong guy on the job and they knew it but did nothing about it.
Great-Kazoo
01-30-2018, 17:13
He had a history of confusing drills with real life and froze up after issuing the warning? Sounds like they had the wrong guy on the job and they knew it but did nothing about it.
Government employee. Any of us who have worked for either the state and feds can tell stories about all the dead wood who can milk the clock better than a norwegian farm girl. Must have really screwed the pooch for 2 heads to roll. Usually they get transferred and or a promotion.
Well, this is a twist I didn't see happening: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/01/30/hawaii-worker-who-sent-false-missile-attack-alert-is-fired-emergency-management-leader-resigns.html
I figured he'd be fired as a scapegoat for the Hawaii State administration's inadequacies and lunacies but they're now saying he intentionally sent the message out after missing the "EXERCISE EXERCISE EXERCISE" on changeover? WTH ... all the more reason the state screwed the pooch on this one for not requiring two-person integrity on an alert like this.
I'm shocked. Literally shocked. Can't believe any gov, especially a Blue State that demands mediocrity from its employees, would take the necessary and just action.
[Eek2]
He got one paycheck (pure charity) more than anyone in the private sector would have gotten.
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