View Full Version : Range Results
CoGirl303
01-29-2018, 19:55
I am left eye dominant. 20/20 vision in my left eye.
Right hand dominant 20/400 in my right eye. I can a contact lens to correct.
Cherry Creek State Park Family Shooting Center
Dec 3, 2017
S&W M&P 15 Sport II
only mods were upgraded pistol grip and CTR-400 Magpul rear stock
Stock trigger, BCG
Magpul Iron Sights (No scope)
Sitting Down, Rifle barrel on a wood block
150 rounds expended
Shooting left handed
10-15 mph winds
Pics are in order
50 yards (Final Results)
73339
100 yards (Final Results)
73340
Today at Shoot Indoors
Free Standing
Nothing to brace against or lean against
Iron Sights
Geissele SSA-E 3.5lb two stage trigger
CTR-400 Rear Stock, upgraded pistol grip
150 rounds expended
Pics are in order
15 yards (Left target)
73341
10 yards (Left target)
73342
15 yards (left target)
73343
50 feet (right target)
73344
Self-Evaluation: Wanted to go to Cherry Creek today but didn't get the chance, so I settled for an indoor range nearby. I can definitely see a grouping difference between the stock trigger and the Geissele trigger results. I am looking forward to putting a scope on this thing this week or next weekend. There should be a marked improvement. I still find myself flinching when I squeeze the trigger, not sure how to overcome my shot anticipation. Once I grow accustomed to the two-stage aspect of the Geissele, I think my grouping will tighten up considerably. Sometimes I hurried and forgot to two-stage, but on the ones I did it seemed like the shots went where I wanted them to go. Breathing remains an issue and I am hurrying my shot and not exhaling and then squeezing the trigger. With the flinch/anticipation, I'm jerking the trigger. I have some things to work on to improve.
I should have bought a bigger target to shoot at. I think it was an issue trying to see that small of a target from 20 yards out. Overall, I'm ok with the results considering I don't have optics yet. I'm confident I can hit a target to 100 yards with iron sights if I had to.
My other AR-15 was never much fun to shoot and it didn't have a quality trigger in it and I was all over the place. This is the first AR I've shot with a custom trigger and i can already see a HUGE difference. Before, I just shot to shoot and thought if I was hitting the target, I was doing ok. Not so much really. Now once I put an optics on, I can challenge myself to get those shot groupings as tight as possible and put them exactly where I want them.
I welcome all of your constructive evaluations/critiques and comparisons.
For flinching with a rifle indoors, consider your ear protection. If you're wearing muffs, try plugs underneath as well.
CoGirl303
01-29-2018, 20:15
For flinching with a rifle indoors, consider your ear protection. If you're wearing muffs, try plugs underneath as well.
i had the same problem at Cherry Creek. I'm just wearing a pair of orange foam earplugs. Maybe I should dig my shooting earphones out of whatever box they're hiding in.
bobbyfairbanks
01-29-2018, 20:20
Practice practice and practice dry fire will get you really far really fast.
i had the same problem at Cherry Creek. I'm just wearing a pair of orange foam earplugs. Maybe I should dig my shooting earphones out of whatever box they're hiding in.
I hate shooting rifles with ear muffs. Hard to get a good cheek weld. Usually end up bumping the right ear muff out of position. I much prefer ear plugs for shooting long guns.
I welcome all of your constructive evaluations/critiques and comparisons.
Nice pattern. What kind of shotgun were you shooting? [Coffee]
DireWolf
01-29-2018, 21:41
Great choice on trigger, probably the single best upgrade you can make....
Practice practice and practice dry fire will get you really far really fast.
^^^This is the strongest recommendation I can make to help fix the "flinch".
One trick you can do (works equally well with rifle or pistol), is to pick up small rail-mount micro-laser (~$50 on Amazon), and use that for your dry fire excersises. Focus the laser on a small but distinct spot while running your dry fire (make sure it's properly sighted-in), and focus on keeping the laser from moving off-target through the trigger-pull. This will help immensely with follow-through (and eliminating unconscious pull/push off target), but will also help train-out the flinch response....
Another good approach which I've seen produce results is to pick up a 22lr and practice with that for a while, as it's a bit more gentle on the ears...
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CoGirl303
01-29-2018, 21:52
does it hurt anything to dry fire?
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does it hurt anything to dry fire?
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Not on AR, unless there isnt an upper on it (potentially)
bobbyfairbanks
01-29-2018, 22:02
Make sure you put brass in rim fire chambers. Modern guns you can dry fire all ya want
My suggestion is that you contact RW and have him get you set up on some basic drills after you have the rifle properly zeroed.
http://www.rwfirearmstraining.com/
Dry fire is an excellent way to improve trigger control and sight picture/alignment, but I would get someone who knows what they are doing to show you the correct way before you start reinforcing the wrong ways.
Just my $.02 and worth exactly what you paid for it.
Be safe.
hurley842002
01-30-2018, 12:57
Since you are welcoming constructive evaluations/critiques I'll go. Your groups aren't terrible, but personally, before I purchased an optic, I would seriously consider trying to tighten them up with iron sights before going the route of an optic. Iron's will force you to focus on fundamentals, and for me, require paying more attention to breathing, trigger control, etc. At the distances shown in your pics, I'd want to have all (or most) rounds in the triangle, or at a minimum tight groups.
Suggest you look up and the Appleseed Project and go take a weekend class. You will learn and progress more in 1 weekend then solo in months.
Suggest you look up and the Appleseed Project and go take a weekend class. You will learn and progress more in 1 weekend then solo in months.
No Colorado events yet, or as of a few weeks ago when I last checked. Good idea though.
To break my flinch I had a friend randomly put snap caps in the magazine. You'll really notice the flinch when the snap cap comes up. I don't know if this works for everyone but it really helped me. Also dry firing helped too. This was all for pistol, rifles have never really made me flinch.
Suggest you look up and the Appleseed Project and go take a weekend class. You will learn and progress more in 1 weekend then solo in months.
that
CoGirl303
02-18-2018, 18:32
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180219/21243eab9d0da6d85a5e28d73f589d6e.jpg
Only got about an hour in today but this is with the new Vortex Viper PST Gen 2 1-6x24 scope.
Cherry Creek State Park. 50 yards only.
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hurley842002
02-18-2018, 18:33
Practice, practice, practice.
Hmm. That’s roughly 4 MOA at that distance. Even the crappiest ammunition would likely hold under 2 MOA at that distance. Seems you’re heading in the right direction. More trigger time and possibly some friendly advice or coaching should help. I’d offer up some assistance but I don’t want to have to explain anything to my wife that involves a woman that I don’t know.
CoGirl303
02-19-2018, 08:24
Hmm. That’s roughly 4 MOA at that distance. Even the crappiest ammunition would likely hold under 2 MOA at that distance. Seems you’re heading in the right direction. More trigger time and possibly some friendly advice or coaching should help. I’d offer up some assistance but I don’t want to have to explain anything to my wife that involves a woman that I don’t know.
I'm still trying to understand the whole MOA thing. I know it means minute of angle, but aside from that, not much else.
That is completely understandable.
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KevDen2005
02-19-2018, 09:18
I'd offer advice but with kids I just collect guns and never shoot them (the guns, not the kids...before Irving sees this post).
I'm still trying to understand the whole MOA thing. I know it means minute of angle, but aside from that, not much else.
That is completely understandable.
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https://youtu.be/VA2PZBD5Tjg
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I'm still trying to understand the whole MOA thing. I know it means minute of angle, but aside from that, not much else.
That is completely understandable.
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When I first saw your last picture I was assuming it was at 100 yards. I was thinking that if you were using cheaper ammunition then maybe that was just about as good as you could do anyways. Once I actually read the context of your post and realized you were shooting at 50 yards I realized that you likely had room left for improvement.
CoGirl303
02-19-2018, 09:47
https://youtu.be/VA2PZBD5Tjg
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thanks for the video, but all that did was confuse me even more. Math is a serious struggle for me beyond basic addition, subtraction, division, multiplication, fractions and decimals which is a struggle without a calculator.
Trying to do numbers in my head...its like scrambled eggs.
Plus my scope is adjusted in MRADS, not MOA.
Hands on experience and training/guidance will work better for me than a video. Not your fault, just a hands on learner as opposed to visual.
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MRAD adjustments are like 3.5 inches at 100 yards
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Not exact, but close:
1 MOA just means 1" group at 100 yards, which would equal a 2" group at 200 yards, or a .5" group at 50 yards.
If you're shooting a 2" group at 50 yards, that would be 4 MOA
buffalobo
02-19-2018, 11:31
There are many web sites and YouTube posters who present MOA/MRAD info/training. Also many optics manufacturers post info/training to educate on the use of their products.
Google - MRAD vs MOA, enough different presentations to get you up to speed.
If you're unarmed, you are a victim
Wolfshoon
02-19-2018, 16:29
Her scope is in MRADS (Milliradians or MILs for short) so she needs to drop the whole MOA side of measurement and focus on MIL.
The scope is a vortex viper 1-6x low power variable with a cross reticle with MIL graduations. It is a good choice for her, she had another thread on here about scope selection and this is the winning result (much better than the ACOG) and it has the capacity to get out to 400, maybe 500 yds. Reality is that most shooting with the rifle will probably be 100 yds or under.
What she needs to do is get fundamental shooting down first and shrink the groups she is shooting, and get the scope cross-hairs zero'd at 100yd. Bench or prone shooting supported with bags/rest is best for that. Once she gets the rifle zero'd with 10 round group sizes about 1.5-2" at 100 yds then she can move on to finding her MIL drop values for further ranges. I say 1.5-2" groups because that is realistic to what her rifle and most range plinking ammo is going to shoot (S&W MP-15 16" carbine with Geissele trigger). Match grade ammo will shrink that value by about a 1/3 to 1/2 with good shooter technique but cost a lot more $$$.
The math needed for longer range is pretty simple. 1 MIL is = to 3.6 inches at 100 yards, her scope turrets are graduated in .1 MIL clicks, so each time she moves 1 click it moves the point of impact .36" at 100 yds. 3 clicks is = to roughly 1.08" at 100 yds.
As distance increases, the amount the Point of Impact changes grow with the distance. This is done in multiples of 100 yds. At 200 yds 1 MIL=7.2". Turret clicks are now .72" each now. 3 clicks will move Bullet impact 2.16"
AT 1000 yards 1 MIL is now equal to 36" and .1 MIL turret clicks will move bullet impact 3.6" each time. 3 clicks will move Point of impact approx 10.8" at 1000yds.
CoGirl303
02-19-2018, 17:22
There are many web sites and YouTube posters who present MOA/MRAD info/training. Also many optics manufacturers post info/training to educate on the use of their products.
Google - MRAD vs MOA, enough different presentations to get you up to speed.
If you're unarmed, you are a victim
I have the manufacturers books, but it made no sense to me. Same with videos. I do better when someone explains it to me as we are doing it.
Her scope is in MRADS (Milliradians or MILs for short) so she needs to drop the whole MOA side of measurement and focus on MIL.
The scope is a vortex viper 1-6x low power variable with a cross reticle with MIL graduations. It is a good choice for her, she had another thread on here about scope selection and this is the winning result (much better than the ACOG) and it has the capacity to get out to 400, maybe 500 yds. Reality is that most shooting with the rifle will probably be 100 yds or under.
What she needs to do is get fundamental shooting down first and shrink the groups she is shooting, and get the scope cross-hairs zero'd at 100yd. Bench or prone shooting supported with bags/rest is best for that. Once she gets the rifle zero'd with 10 round group sizes about 1.5-2" at 100 yds then she can move on to finding her MIL drop values for further ranges. I say 1.5-2" groups because that is realistic to what her rifle and most range plinking ammo is going to shoot (S&W MP-15 16" carbine with Geissele trigger). Match grade ammo will shrink that value by about a 1/3 to 1/2 with good shooter technique but cost a lot more $$$.
The math needed for longer range is pretty simple. 1 MIL is = to 3.6 inches at 100 yards, her scope turrets are graduated in .1 MIL clicks, so each time she moves 1 click it moves the point of impact .36" at 100 yds. 3 clicks is = to roughly 1.08" at 100 yds.
As distance increases, the amount the Point of Impact changes grow with the distance. This is done in multiples of 100 yds. At 200 yds 1 MIL=7.2". Turret clicks are now .72" each now. 3 clicks will move Bullet impact 2.16"
AT 1000 yards 1 MIL is now equal to 36" and .1 MIL turret clicks will move bullet impact 3.6" each time. 3 clicks will move Point of impact approx 10.8" at 1000yds.
[emoji52] I'm really lost now.
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First, quit selling yourself short and using an excuse about math as a crutch. The concept of MOA requires no math to understand. When I get home, I'll try to make a crude drawing to give you the basic concept, them when you go back and read the responses, everything will make more sense, no math required. Once you see it drawn out in a diagram, the concept will "click."
I'm still trying to understand the whole MOA thing. I know it means minute of angle, but aside from that, not much else.
You can draw a right triangle, the base of the triangle is a straight line from the bench to the center of the target.
At the target, the bullet impact will be off center, draw a line from the center of the target to the bullet impact point. This will be the number of inches from center to bullet impact.
If you are shooting at 100-yards, and your bullet misses the center of the target by 1-inch, this is 1-MOA, 1" / 100-yds. == 1-MOA.
If you are shooting at 200-yards, and your bullet misses the center of the target by 1-inch, this is 1/2 MOa, 1/2" / 100-yds. == 1/2 MOA
If you are shooting at 200-yards, and your bullet misses the center of the target by 2-inches, this is 2" / 200-yds. == 1" / 100-yds. == 1-MOA
<---------------------------------------------------- 100-yds. -------------------------------------------------------------->
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Center of target
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .....V
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .....V
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .....V 1" ==1-MOA
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................B ullet Impact
CoGirl303
02-19-2018, 21:26
First, quit selling yourself short and using an excuse about math as a crutch. The concept of MOA requires no math to understand. When I get home, I'll try to make a crude drawing to give you the basic concept, them when you go back and read the responses, everything will make more sense, no math required. Once you see it drawn out in a diagram, the concept will "click."
numbers in general just go into a puzzle in my head.
1-MRAD == 10-cm at 100-meters.
<---------------------------------------------------- 100-meters -------------------------------------------------------------->
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Center of target
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .....V
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .....V
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .....V 10-cm ==1-MRAD
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................B ullet Impact
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/m9-0vkstDYx4U6BsJONBLHvRLtGTo8BQmTJRlNUp6IgQi1sd2_efv kfkIyAFqEPn3ZlZPFMjJfgi5UblE9usH9O2cNpYqKD1TULf6Ba dvvhqWmjsa5U3tjyq6OF0N_WkDwUKEtYXTzDvX3MYKmbS2cWqE i0Zko8ypTFVRs9q_yV7E1d9w-n5Q2XvBj4-QimTGhhvlwQhTKK5sGfUim79zsNm_n1N-tn1fg5hXEEzmJSPfNYgrLIe_vk0dGt3_fy1Ao3oF2FK1bfgmMo RwzmFCHS6MVEMUlbIVfqH2OlolYpUsoXl74iGN6m5EFcl7BP-e6va6dq429_0in8NYF2_uiprMMLNtOHJFEhNnyC1NI7ByDIA6P Nf4fl715pRMsENOailoWiR9DuLRch_KJftiaLlqZK6kRKErs5q B8bi0Q5lDt41VsMbA9e2JkiyezowWzVBpeERrEfbFIdNTZAlAx cppR_v0RMf_M0Cj91MZmGwVLopU13J5IJC4dO6_k64BH0wbsHJ TtKl9C54qlL-PCSml1waFSpJnugbCj2ScCgpNq_Rb6Ig0TWm76LFJ9DOrbGC9Y Yq_DNIty5VoIcNwEBYncT37dpt7JNEVaQ4yfPm8aSZ1oyki6C4 tRKfJTkMTkbeNKgS2AQSkOLA5D9nni8c7wOMJCBdmg=w1152-h648-no
I'm not sure how this picture will show up on other's screens or phones, so bare with me. This is my very simplified explanation of Minute of Angle (MOA). First, forget about any numbers, or math. Just deal with grasping the basic concept. One minute of angle is an angle that is X degrees, what X is, doesn't matter. Imagine an angle, any angle, where the point starts at the barrel of the gun, and the angle continues on into infinity. Since it is an angle, the lines get further and further apart the further they travel from the barrel. My crude drawing shows 1 MOA in black, and 2 MOA in red. I tried to draw 2 MOA as having twice the angle of 1 MOA, but of course it is not to scale.
Remember that MOA is simply a measurement of accuracy. For the following example, just assume that the shooter is a perfect robot and there are no other factors like wind or whatever to throw off the shot. If a rifle A can achieve a level of accuracy of 1 MOA, the group size would theoretically always fit between the black lines at whatever distance. You can see that the group opens up the further away the target gets, but the level of accuracy does not change. If rifle B is only capable of 2 MOA of accuracy, it's groups will always fit between the two red lines, no matter the distance.
Once you've wrapped your head around the first part, the part about what each Mil represents at each distance should come together easier. One Mil is a fixed measurement, but it is applied differently at different distances. The simplest way I can explain that part is to have you use your thumb at arms length. At a distance across the room, your thumb will cover someone's face. At a distance of a city block, your thumb will cover a house. At the distance of the moon, your thumb will cover the entire moon. So in a room, if you were to adjuster your "thumb sight" one thumb width to the left, your point of impact would move to the left about the width of a face, say six inches. But at the distance of a city block, now your point of aim has moved to the left about the width of a house, say 40 feet. And if you were shooting at the moon, and moved your "thumb sight" just one thumb width left, you'd miss the moon, which is however many thousand kilometers. Even though you made the same adjustment, your sight was off further and further as you got further away from the target.
Hope that helped and wasn't even more confusing. If it did help, go back and read all the posts again, especially the ones with real life numbers, and hopefully it will make more sense.
Okay. I am going to take nerd side of me for few "mili"second. [facepalm]
DEGREES
Entire circle is 360degrees
1 minute is 1/60 degree. when someone say 1 MOA, it means 1/60th degree. 1 SOA is 1/(60x60) degree.
How do you get 1MOA = 1 inch? bro?
length of shooting dist(adjecent dist ;x) = 100yd
angle A= 1/60 degrees (1')
how much is opposite distance? (target spread)
by doing "SOH-CAH-TOA" (from when I was 14 years old.)
we got Opposite distance and the Angle (TOA Tan A=y/x or hs will say TAN A= OPP/ADJ)
tan (1/60deg; 1MOA)= y/100yd
100yd *tan (1/60)= y
y=0.029yd
=~1.047"
For 200yd, sub 200 into x.
then it is ~2.09"
RADIAN
Entire circle is 2Pi rad
so 1 radian is about ~57.29580 degrees ( rad= 360/2pi)
Mili is 1/1000, so if you put 57.30/1000
MRAD= 0.0572958 degree (~0.573)
MRAD "AINT" a distance. it is an angle.
Maybe we can say "MRAD at 100 is x" like how we say 100yd at 1MOA is 1."
So, 1 MRAD at 100yd will be approx 5.730 inches
My personal opinion:
If you are into math to calculate the angle in radian. Scientist/Mathmaticians/Engineers uses radians. HS Trig and Geometry uses radian. it is simplier using radian doing some math involved.
If you are very familar with degree system and know how you get minute of angle is equivalent to approximate 1.04" at 100yd , then, maybe Minute-of-angle system might be better.
I use MOA system, because I don't think I will be deriving sin pi/4 of an angle at shooting. It will be in 1/1000 (agian mili radian MRAD).
https://i.imgur.com/TZ8aNia.jpg
[Roll1]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSFd_2oJgak
See? Totally simple!
Shouldn't it be 1/360 instead of 1/60?
See? Totally simple!
Shouldn't it be 1/360 instead of 1/60?
You mean 1' (Minute of angle)? It will be 1/60 degree, because there are 60 minutes in 1 degree.
Now, if it is 1" (Second of angle), it will be 1/3600 degree in 1 second.
My bad. That's why I draw graphs instead of doing real math.
I rarely shoot long distance now, and I sometimes have to think for 5+ seconds how much I need to turn the knob to raise/lower at certain distance(s).
Wolfshoon
02-20-2018, 02:17
RADIAN
Entire circle is 2Pi rad
so 1 radian is about ~57.29580 degrees ( rad= 360/2pi)
Mili is 1/1000, so if you put 57.30/1000
MRAD= 0.0572958 degree (~0.573)
MRAD "AINT" a distance. it is an angle.
Maybe we can say "MRAD at 100 is x" like how we say 100yd at 1MOA is 1."
So, 1 MRAD at 100yd will be approx 5.730 inches
MrPrena:
I agree with everything you said up to the part in red. This is by no means a pissing match and am impressed with your memory of math from 14 years old, I wish I was as cognizant with my memory.
1" = 1 MOA :is the quick dirty standard that is easy to understand for the masses, even if not accurate, but it is close. To make matters even worse there are a couple scope makers using "SMOA" (shooters minute of angle) where they did in fact make their clicks true 1/4" values at 100yards and one of them was selling their products as true MOA scopes.
Both MOA and MIL are angular measurements, not distance measurements.
I'm still trying to figure out how you got 5.73" for 1 MIL at 100yd because everything is correct prior to that line...............
Borrowed from looserounds.com http://looserounds.com/2015/01/19/moa-and-mils-summed-up-nicely/
What is MOA? MOA stands for minute of angle. There are 360 degrees in a circle and each degree is divided into 60 minutes. If we round to the nearest 1⁄100 of an inch, at 100 yards 1 degree measures 62.83 inches. One MOA, 1⁄60 of that, measures 1.047 inches. While 1 MOA at 100 yards equals 1.047 inches, at 200 yards it equals 2.094 inches (2 x 1.047). To calculate MOA at any distance, multiply 1.047 by the distance in yards and divide by 100.
What is a MIL? MILS (milliradians) is another angular measurement. There are 6.2832 (π x 2) radians per circle. There are 1,000 mils per radian so, there are 6,283.2 mils in a circle. There are 21,600 MOA in a circle, so a little quick division determines there are 3.4377 MOA per mil. At 100 yards, 3.4377 MOA equals 3.599 inches (3.4377 x 1.047). Rounded up, one mil equals 3.6 inches at 100 yards. A mil is so large, it’s broken into tenths in order to make precise adjustments. If you have a riflescope with mil adjustments, each click equals 1⁄10 mil. A tenth of a mil equals .36 inch or .9144 centimeter at 100 yards. Since 1⁄10 of a mil is an angular measurement, it will be slightly larger at 100 meters than at 100 yards because 100 meters equals 109.361 yards. At 100 meters, 1⁄10 of a mil equals .9999 centimeter. Practically speaking, 1⁄10 of a mil equals 1 centimeter at 100 meters. Because mil, like MOA, is an angular measure, the length it represents increases with distance. For example, 1 mil at 100 yards equals 3.6 inches and 7.2 inches at 200 yards. To calculate how many inches are in a mil at any distance, multiply 3.6 times the distance in yards and divide by 100.
Going back to the OP, her scope is in MIL's so any talk of MOA is not helping her and from what I'm reading she is a newbie at any type of distance shooting and any talk of MILS and MOA is confusing. For her purposes she needs to get the scope mounted and zero'd for 100 yards and practice until she gets good repeatable precision and accuracy. Then she can start talking about longer distances and what the MIL hashmarks in her scope do, but until then this is all wasted talking points.
MrPrena:
I agree with everything you said up to the part in red. This is by no means a pissing match and am impressed with your memory of math from 14 years old, I wish I was as cognizant with my memory.
1" = 1 MOA :is the quick dirty standard that is easy to understand for the masses, even if not accurate, but it is close. To make matters even worse there are a couple scope makers using "SMOA" (shooters minute of angle) where they did in fact make their clicks true 1/4" values at 100yards and one of them was selling their products as true MOA scopes.
Both MOA and MIL are angular measurements, not distance measurements.
I'm still trying to figure out how you got 5.73" for 1 MIL at 100yd because everything is correct prior to that line...............
Borrowed from looserounds.com http://looserounds.com/2015/01/19/moa-and-mils-summed-up-nicely/
Going back to the OP, her scope is in MIL's so any talk of MOA is not helping her and from what I'm reading she is a newbie at any type of distance shooting and any talk of MILS and MOA is confusing. For her purposes she needs to get the scope mounted and zero'd for 100 yards and practice until she gets good repeatable precision and accuracy. Then she can start talking about longer distances and what the MIL hashmarks in her scope do, but until then this is all wasted talking points.
no problem.
Yeah, 1.04" 0.04" at 100yd is so insignificant that we as shooter adopted 1"=y @100yd as 1minute of angle.
Tan A=y/x
A=1mrad=MRAD= 0.0572958 degree (~0.573)
x (hor dist of target)=100yd
y= how much difference
x tan A=y
(100yd) tan (0.0572958)= y
100y=0.001
y=0.1yd
(36in/1yd)
y=3.6" at 100yd
Conclusion: Sorry, my TI89 was not set up as deg. therfore I made an error.[LOL]
(tan (0.0572958) in radian keep coming up as same number )
hurley842002
02-20-2018, 06:13
Well now the OP is sure to be thoroughly confused. I still hold firm on the idea that she should have stuck with irons and focused on the basics first...
Grant H.
02-20-2018, 11:53
Simply put:
1 MOA is 1" at 100yds, and 10" at 1000yds.
1 MIL is 3.6" at 100yds, and 36" at 1000yds.
Your scope has .2 MIL adjustments, which means that each click is .72" of movement at 100yds or 7.2" at 1000yds.
Since you bought a MIL/MIL scope, ignore the MOA discussion. Learn the system that your scope operates on, and move forward with training.
MOA is actually 1.047" at 100 yards and so forth. not so important at 100 yards, but at 1k that .47" could be the difference in a vital/non vital hit.
For Mildot there is a descent article here http://www.mil-dot.com/articles/how-to-get-the-most-out-of-your-mil-dot-reticle
Simply put:
1 MOA is 1" at 100yds, and 10" at 1000yds.
1 MIL is 3.6" at 100yds, and 36" at 1000yds.
Your scope has .2 MIL adjustments, which means that each click is .72" of movement at 100yds or 7.2" at 1000yds.
Since you bought a MIL/MIL scope, ignore the MOA discussion. Learn the system that your scope operates on, and move forward with training.
Grant H.
02-20-2018, 12:40
MOA is actually 1.047" at 100 yards and so forth. not so important at 100 yards, but at 1k that .47" could be the difference in a vital/non vital hit.
For Mildot there is a descent article here http://www.mil-dot.com/articles/how-to-get-the-most-out-of-your-mil-dot-reticle
You are correct. 1 MOA is actually 1.047" at 100 yds and 10.47" at 1000 yds.
However, for someone who is just learning, and learning on a 16" AR, the difference of less than .5" at 1000yds isn't important or relevant.
SuperiorDG
02-20-2018, 13:19
One thing I think would help a lot is to dry fire, rifle supported like when you at the range, with a quarter balanced on the end of your barrel. Do it until you can pull the trigger without it falling off and keep doing it. There is a video out there that shows this drill but I can't find it.
We used to do that with dimes for Sgt's Time training. Goal was to get to the point where you could dry fire 10x in a row from prone unsupported without the dime falling off. It's possible to even charge the weapon without it falling off if your support arm is steady.
CoGirl303
02-20-2018, 18:20
I'm a newbie to shooting with a scope.
I qual'd at Ft. Jackson, SC in BCT with iron sights. 29/40, 1st time go, w/ no practice and coming out of the base hospital after a 9 day stay for bacterial pnuemonia right from the 2nd day of BRM.
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KevDen2005
02-20-2018, 18:23
I'm a newbie to shooting with a scope.
I qual'd at Ft. Jackson, SC in BCT with iron sights. 29/40, 1st time go, w/ no practice and coming out of the base hospital after a 9 day stay for bacterial pnuemonia right from the 2nd day of BRM.
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Not bad with no practice and new to the system. I'm sure you had to qualify multiple times during your service (assuming you're out).
CoGirl303
02-20-2018, 21:09
I was completely new to rifles when I joined. Had never even fired a handgun.
The only experience I had at the time was with shotguns for trapshooting, rabbit and pheasant/quail hunting.
Sadly, my military service was cut short due to shattering my left foot in AIT. I had stress fractures from basic that were misdiagnosed as plantar fasciitis. Ran up a stack of logs at AIT during training and jumped off and when I landed, all everyone within 10 feet of me heard was a sickening crunch. One of our DS's was standing 4 feet away and he told me not to move and that it would be ok. Ambulance came and hauled me to the base ER at Ft. Eustis, VA. They cut my boot off and sent me to X-Ray which was brutal due to all the positioning and situating of my foot. 36 different fractures of the cessamoid bone and adjoining toe bones and a few others I can't remember. 6 months in a cast. Army gave me the boot AND the walking boot on my discharge day. 20% disabled.
I was a 68Y (AH-64D Apache Avionics/Electrical/Weapons Systems Tech.) Was in just barely under 11 months total. blah. [emoji37]
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There are two distinct threads:
1. Training - as pointed out by hurley842002
2. Education - what is MOA, MIL, how is it measured.
The training thread contains several good suggestions.
The education portion has derailed to the point of no return.
CoGirl303
03-18-2018, 16:46
Today I left CCSP SFC in a very good mood. Very happy with these results. [emoji16]
50 yds with my AR-15
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180318/cce7888fc64669b3b5e8845cb39f47d2.jpg
100 yds with my AR-15
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180318/abbb3d95909b563ef353612d3147c846.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180318/d776d373d2945e5b73ee79fef31aeeb7.jpg
25 yds w/ my Sig Sauer P938
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180318/274f5189acdfcb21a4422bd6641d47af.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180318/cdafb55573c385576b0410d68bafef4d.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180318/d94935f02f19f69794663aa5dd794b83.jpg
My Sig needs to go the shop. For some reason the iron sights are all out of whack. (I'll post up pics in a second).
Hit 11 out of 25 on the clay pigeons. a tad rusty. Next Sunday, I am going pheasant hunting so some much needed practice was in order today.
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CoGirl303
03-18-2018, 16:52
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180318/f455e251e6aae81091a1e5588be76a7e.jpg
the Sig needs to go to the shop because the iron sights were way off. The shot on the far left was when the RSO aimed them dead center and it went way left. He got the laser adjusted and it was pretty much dead on, but I need more practice to get used to the recoil.
The front sight is also a little high. Kinda odd for brand new handgun that I have never fired until today.
Should be better once the iron sights are adjusted and everything is dialed in.
And the pin came out on the Remington 870 today. It's pretty worn out so two pairs of replacements are in order to replace the pair currently in there and have a pair on standby.
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You need a lot more practice with the pistol before you run off to the shop to move sights around, especially if they are not adjustable.
CoGirl303
03-18-2018, 17:19
You need a lot more practice with the pistol before you run off to the shop to move sights around, especially if they are not adjustable.
they are adjustable. But I don't understand your logic.
the RSO said they were way off and need to be adjusted. Why would I need more practice before getting them adjusted properly?
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If they are adjustable, that's different.
My logic based on most pistol sights NOT being adjustable, and seeing many people say "these sights are off!" when they aren't, it's just a lack of practice on their part.
Again, if the sights are adjustable, there is a much greater chance for them to actually be off. Can you physically see the rear sight more to one side than the other?
hurley842002
03-18-2018, 17:51
If they are adjustable, that's different.
My logic based on most pistol sights NOT being adjustable, and seeing many people say "these sights are off!" when they aren't, it's just a lack of practice on their part.
Again, if the sights are adjustable, there is a much greater chance for them to actually be off. Can you physically see the rear sight more to one side than the other?Pretty much agree, but I'll wait for the OP to post pics. There seems to be lots of blame on equipment.....
Grant H.
03-18-2018, 20:27
If they are adjustable, that's different.
My logic based on most pistol sights NOT being adjustable, and seeing many people say "these sights are off!" when they aren't, it's just a lack of practice on their part.
Again, if the sights are adjustable, there is a much greater chance for them to actually be off. Can you physically see the rear sight more to one side than the other?
They don't look real adjustable...
https://farm1.staticflickr.com/786/26018412177_5c3944bbee_o.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/FDaatp)p938 (https://flic.kr/p/FDaatp) by ARNEWB (https://www.flickr.com/photos/61071044@N08/), on Flickr
hurley842002
03-18-2018, 20:30
They don't look real adjustable...
https://farm1.staticflickr.com/786/26018412177_5c3944bbee_o.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/FDaatp)p938 (https://flic.kr/p/FDaatp) by ARNEWB (https://www.flickr.com/photos/61071044@N08/), on FlickrThey look like the same NON adjustable sights that were on the 938 that I used to own.
Grant H.
03-18-2018, 20:33
They look like the same NON adjustable sights that were on the 938 that I used to own.
Too bad we're blocked... LOL.
We've already solved the issue, with Irvings help.
Mo' practice...
hurley842002
03-18-2018, 20:49
Too bad we're blocked... LOL.
We've already solved the issue, with Irvings help.
Mo' practice...LOL
CoGirl303
03-18-2018, 23:02
If they are adjustable, that's different.
My logic based on most pistol sights NOT being adjustable, and seeing many people say "these sights are off!" when they aren't, it's just a lack of practice on their part.
Again, if the sights are adjustable, there is a much greater chance for them to actually be off. Can you physically see the rear sight more to one side than the other?
oh I see! Yeah, the RSO said he could visually see the rear iron sight was too far left (and he showed me what to look for so I know for future reference) plus aiming center mass and being all the way at the left of the target. And the front sight being high but shots going low. So I'll take it to a gun shop and have them adjust them and test fire to get them aligned properly.
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Shooting low is almost guaranteed to be a training issue. It's very common for people to shoot low, usually because they are anticipating recoil. Heck, I still shoot low after years of shooting competitions.
CoGirl303
03-18-2018, 23:29
The front and rear sight have a dovetail slider, so it can change the windage but not the elevation.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180319/7281949bc7dd3cccbf0d4ac309cbf781.jpg
http://sigtalk.com/p238-p938-pistol/7727-p938-sight-questions.html#/topics/7727?page=2
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180319/1ce70f9415ac0fd27707c34e465fd889.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180319/715919f08cf2dc856b0f3eae477fe33f.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180319/8db0acea8ad9bc21b6defcbe423af7a7.jpg
So I may look at a set of fully adjustable sights for this pistol. I like how it fits in my hand though, it's comfortable and the recoil is easy to manage.
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Those are how the sights are installed.
CoGirl303
03-18-2018, 23:31
Those are how the sights are installed.
Yes but Sig doesn't adjust them at the factory.
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hurley842002
03-19-2018, 05:15
Yes but Sig doesn't adjust them at the factory.
Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkAccording to who?
Disregard, I just remembered I'm blocked.
hahaha, these comments are priceless
Grant H.
03-19-2018, 11:23
According to who?
Disregard, I just remembered I'm blocked.
I guess I lucked out and got one of the special ones that don't need new sights from factory.
My Sig puts the bullet where I aim it, and that's with a Sig (they don't fit my hand as well as my Glocks or 1911's.)
Grant H.
03-19-2018, 11:26
Blocked?
Proper terminology would be "ignored".
It's the ability for members of a forum to curate their very own echo chamber.
Hurley and I, at a minimum, are ignored by the OP, so unless she clicks the link that is posted (instead of our posts) she doesn't see what we wrote (with a few caveats, like quotes).
buffalobo
03-19-2018, 12:04
Stay on topic.
hurley842002
03-19-2018, 12:54
Stay on topic.
Copy, my bad.
Grant H.
03-19-2018, 13:20
Stay on topic.
Understood.
SIG most certainly sights all of their handguns prior to shipping them. Most new guns come with the two or three casings and the sighting target from the factory. Just because they are sighted doesn't mean they can't be resighted by new owners depending on their needs. I wouldn't resight dovetail sights without benchresting them and having one or two other decent shooters put a few rounds through it to make certain that I was eliminated as the cause.
SIG also has a tendency to combat sight their handguns, unlike some other manufacturers. On your sight picture, are you putting the center of the target on top of the front sight or directly behind the front sight? The first is often described as a lollypop and the other is a combat sight.
In handgun shooting, if you are seeing drift left or right on your otherwise good groups, try varying your grip distribution. I little more or less left or right hand can make the change you are looking for without worrying about your sights.
Having someone else with you while you are shooting to give you some insight on what they are seeing in your shooting is probably the least expensive and most effective way to improve your shooting. The next best thing would be to video yourself but that is only useful if you really know what you are doing and know how to diagnose your deficiencies.
Improvement is a process that never ends until you give up.
Be safe.
CoGirl303
03-20-2018, 16:58
I'll take it Shoot Indoors and have them put a few rounds through it first and check the sights to be sure. The RSO at CCSP SFC was a pistol instructor. While I have no doubt as to his expertise, I will obtain a second opinion in regards to the sights.
Site adjusting tool
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-fmZnJ_t34
CoGirl303
03-28-2018, 20:27
Shoot Indoors confirmed the rear sight was indeed as far off to the left as the CCSP SFC RSO stated. They adjusted the rear dovetail sight and got it sighted in.
Nothing can be done w/ elevation on the front sight other than to replace it completely.
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Glad it got moved. Front sight is most likely a training issue. Don't mess with it until you're sure.
Shoot Indoors confirmed the rear sight was indeed as far off to the left as the CCSP SFC RSO stated. They adjusted the rear dovetail sight and got it sighted in.
Nothing can be done w/ elevation on the front sight other than to replace it completely.
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Where does it group, and at what distance?
Does it shoot 3” low at 3 yards? 5” high at 25 yards? Is it constant, regardless of ammunition?
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CoGirl303
04-01-2018, 21:42
Glad it got moved. Front sight is most likely a training issue. Don't mess with it until you're sure.
Thanks. I'm going to take a handgun training course soon.
Where does it group, and at what distance?
Does it shoot 3” low at 3 yards? 5” high at 25 yards? Is it constant, regardless of ammunition?
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I was in the waiting area while he did it. So I don't know. He got it zeroed at 5 yards for me.
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I found this picture of a 5 shot group I did out of my Tikka T3x CTR 20" .308, shooting 175gr Federal Gold Medal Match.
Happy that it's sub-MOA, but I think I can do better. It was super windy that day to the point of messing with my POA, so I'd like to try again when it's calm. I'm also pretty new to shooting long range/tight groups, so I can probably work on my breathing, trigger control, follow through, etc. Any advice?
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