View Full Version : 2 shot at L.A. school, female shooter in custody
CoGirl303
02-01-2018, 13:49
http://www.cnn.com/2018/02/01/us/los-angeles-sal-castro-middle-school-shooting/index.html?sr=fbCNN020118los-angeles-sal-castro-middle-school-shooting0112PMStoryLink
here we go yet again.
More cries for "gun-control". [emoji849]
The question that politicians should be asking is
"How are young children/teens under 18 getting access to firearms with which to commit these shootings?"
It's beyond comprehension to me, why any parent, grandparent, aunt, uncle, or other adult is leaving firearms out for kids to get ahold of to use for purposes like this.
While I'm not for gun-control, this irresponsibility needs to be addressed 100% and those who leave a firearm where a minor can get ahold of it and misuse it, should face criminal negligence charges, reckless endangerment, involuntary manslaughter charges and be held civilly liable for wrongful death and forfeit their damn rights to gun ownership.
This CANNOT continue or we arent going to have any gun rights or guns to worry about.
It's apparent we have a gun responsibility problem, lack of educated firearms owners and a lack of firearms proficiency amongst gun owners.
Outside of teaching a minor, hunting, range time or cleaning, there's zero reason a minor should have access to firearms.
How the hell did this girl get access to a gun and take it to school and then use it to shoot someone?
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wctriumph
02-01-2018, 13:58
All of these things that you mention are on the books in CA. I don't see any more laws being able to fix it and even if the parents are fined or jailed, it has never helped, it will continue to happen unless there is more education in the schools about safe gun handling. I was a product of the LA city school system and we did not have these issues back then. I was on my high school shooting team.
The state of CA is broken and until the citizens have had enough of corrupt government nothing will change. The state will continue to pass laws that do nothing but create new criminals.
hurley842002
02-01-2018, 14:03
All of these things that you mention are on the books in CA. I don't see any more laws being able to fix it and even if the parents are fined or jailed, it has never helped, it will continue to happen unless there is more education in the schools about safe gun handling. I was a product of the LA city school system and we did not have these issues back then. I was on my high school shooting team.
The state of CA is broken and until the citizens have had enough of corrupt government nothing will change. The state will continue to pass laws that do nothing but create new criminals.Like
Little Dutch
02-01-2018, 14:08
I think the question on how they have access to tools is the wrong question to ask. Most of us grew up with access to those tools, yet not one of us ever went on a murdering spree.
A more appropriate question is why they have decided that murdering people is the answer. Is it a societal problem; are they somehow being programmed to react in such an extreme manner? Is it a problem with chemical unbalances in the brain; is it caused by meds, or can it be corrected with proper diagnosis? There are many more possibilities of course, but perhaps the question shouldn't even be about preventative measures, but how to stop the action quicker once it has begun.
It's beyond comprehension to me, why any parent, grandparent, aunt, uncle, or other adult is leaving firearms out for kids to get ahold of to use for purposes like this.
This CANNOT continue or we arent going to have any gun rights or guns to worry about.
.
Outside of teaching a minor, hunting, range time or cleaning, there's zero reason a minor should have access to firearms.
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Like this?
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/ala-boy-shoots-intruder-started-crying-baby-article-1.2621166
Lock your own stuff up if you wish. Leave mine alone.
I think the question on how they have access to tools is the wrong question to ask. Most of us grew up with access to those tools, yet not one of us ever went on a murdering spree.
A more appropriate question is why they have decided that murdering people is the answer. Is it a societal problem; are they somehow being programmed to react in such an extreme manner? Is it a problem with chemical unbalances in the brain; is it caused by meds, or can it be corrected with proper diagnosis? There are many more possibilities of course, but perhaps the question shouldn't even be about preventative measures, but how to stop the action quicker once it has begun.
Exactly. Even the OP (a gun person) is jumping to "why does someone have a gun?", when the question should be "why does a kid want to kill people?".
CoGirl303
02-01-2018, 14:15
Like this?
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/ala-boy-shoots-intruder-started-crying-baby-article-1.2621166
Lock your own stuff up if you wish. Leave mine alone.
noted.
I do lock my stuff up. rifle and shotgun are both locked up.
my handgun is with me at all times, night or day unless I'm drinking, then it gets locked up.
I have an alarm system and cameras in the common areas of the house I live in. If someone breaks in and withstands the piercing alarm sound, I'll have plenty of advanced warning to uncase and load both and go on the defensive as I'm in the basement.
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hurley842002
02-01-2018, 14:16
Exactly. Even the OP (a gun person) is jumping to "why does someone have a gun?", when the question should be "why does a kid want to kill people?".Like again.
Majority of school shooting are either facing mental issue or kids getting bullied.
More counseling and education of bullying and getting bullied needed.
wctriumph
02-01-2018, 14:22
When my daughter turned 4 years old and she was able to pull the trigger on my 686 through a complete trigger cocking action I started her firearms training. She was properly "indoctrinated" into the firearm world and learned from me and her grandfather how to properly handle firearms. She new that she was not to handle any firearms without her parents or grandparents there to supervise. She grew up around firearms and she never went off the deep end and she does not handle firearms unsafely. She has taken here CCW class and we will get her permit when I get my tax return.
People are irresponsible with all manner of tools that can cause death and mayhem, I don't see that changing until parents take control of their families. If the state is allowed to have control we will continue to see acts such as this. It is sad that young people feel that a firearm is the solution to life's issues and that their parents think that drugging them is the way to help them cope with life.
noted.
I do lock my stuff up. rifle and shotgun are both locked up.
my handgun is with me at all times, night or day unless I'm drinking, then it gets locked up.
I have an alarm system and cameras in the common areas of the house I live in. If someone breaks in and withstands the piercing alarm sound, I'll have plenty of advanced warning to uncase and load both and go on the defensive as I'm in the basement.
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Well, I have cameras that I cant watch while I'm asleep and I am less than 30ft from my front door. My uncased AR15 sits next to the bed, loaded.
A blanket statement about minor's access to firearms cannot be accurately made, just like a blanket statement about adults access to firearms. My buddies kids, since they were 5 and 7 (now 9 and 11) would simply notice the gun, say "Michael, is that your gun?", and walk off. They know better than to touch it without permission.
This is not a gun problem, it is a people problem. Ban people.
hurley842002
02-01-2018, 14:28
I recall my father locking all of his guns up in two cabinets (3 later on as his collection grew), which was enough to keep us kids out of them while we were young and irresponsible. He taught us firearm safety at a young age, and I took hunter safety when I was 8 or 9, by the time I was in middle school, I knew exactly where my father's keys to the gun cabinets were, and on several occasions I accessed them to show off to my friends (always following safety protocol, and never accessed the ammo for them). Once in high school, I had full access with permission from my father, and would often go shooting and small game hunting. My point to all this, is that I had the same access to firearms that the shooting suspect had, and likely at a much younger age. Access to firearms is not the problem CoGirl303...
CoGirl303
02-01-2018, 14:41
All of these things that you mention are on the books in CA. I don't see any more laws being able to fix it and even if the parents are fined or jailed, it has never helped, it will continue to happen unless there is more education in the schools about safe gun handling. I was a product of the LA city school system and we did not have these issues back then. I was on my high school shooting team.
The state of CA is broken and until the citizens have had enough of corrupt government nothing will change. The state will continue to pass laws that do nothing but create new criminals.
yet we rarely if ever hear of it being charged and prosecuted.
I agree CA is broken, but CA being broken disnt lead a girl to shoot people.
I think the question on how they have access to tools is the wrong question to ask. Most of us grew up with access to those tools, yet not one of us ever went on a murdering spree.
A more appropriate question is why they have decided that murdering people is the answer. Is it a societal problem; are they somehow being programmed to react in such an extreme manner? Is it a problem with chemical unbalances in the brain; is it caused by meds, or can it be corrected with proper diagnosis? There are many more possibilities of course, but perhaps the question shouldn't even be about preventative measures, but how to stop the action quicker once it has begun.
Not disagreeing with anything you said, but I never had access to guns when I was in school unless my Dad was supervising.
But keeping guns out of the hands of minors is common sense and its a law in almost every state if not every state (unless supervised).
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hurley842002
02-01-2018, 14:45
But keeping guns out of the hands of minors is common sense
Ahh common sense gun laws, straight out of the liberal playbook...
spqrzilla
02-01-2018, 14:58
While I'm not for gun-control, this irresponsibility needs to be addressed 100% and those who leave a firearm where a minor can get ahold of it and misuse it, should face criminal negligence charges, reckless endangerment, involuntary manslaughter charges and be held civilly liable for wrongful death and forfeit their damn rights to gun ownership.
This is a blanket statement that really has no relation to reality. "minors" are intelligent human beings and can, with persistence, defeat any measures made to 'secure' firearms. Any one who has been a parent can tell you that children get into things much sooner than you expect them to be capable of. A middle school student has no particular deficit of cunning or intelligence to apply to the problem of getting access.
The story tells us nothing about how the 12 year old obtained a firearm. That's a particularly nasty little neighborhood, I can tell you from first hand experience.
Further, California has such laws in effect. Which tells us how effective they are, does it not?
SuperiorDG
02-01-2018, 15:17
This is a blanket statement that really has no relation to reality. "minors" are intelligent human beings and can, with persistence, defeat any measures made to 'secure' firearms. Any one who has been a parent can tell you that children get into things much sooner than you expect them to be capable of. A middle school student has no particular deficit of cunning or intelligence to apply to the problem of getting access.
The story tells us nothing about how the 12 year old obtained a firearm. That's a particularly nasty little neighborhood, I can tell you from first hand experience.
Further, California has such laws in effect. Which tells us how effective they are, does it not?
I agree with this. Like I was told about people in prison, kids have plenty of time to figure these kinds of things out.
GUNS AND CHILDREN--FIREARM OWNER RESPONSIBILITIES
Summary of Safe Storage Laws Regarding Children
You may be guilty of a misdemeanor or a felony if you keep a loaded firearm within any premises that are under your custody or control and a child under 18 years of age obtains and uses it, resulting in injury or death, or carries it to a public place, unless you stored the firearm in a locked container or locked the firearm with a locking device to temporarily keep it from functioning.
You Cannot Be Too Careful with Children and Guns
There is no such thing as being too careful with children and guns. Never assume that simply because a toddler may lack finger strength, they can't pull the trigger. A child's thumb has twice the strength of the other fingers. When a toddler's thumb "pushes" against a trigger, invariably the barrel of the gun is pointing directly at the child's face. NEVER leave a firearm lying around the house.
Child safety precautions still apply even if you have no children or if your children have grown to adulthood and left home. A nephew, niece, neighbor's child or a grandchild may come to visit. Practice gun safety at all times.
To prevent injury or death caused by improper storage of guns in a home where children are likely to be present, you should store all guns unloaded, lock them with a firearms safety device and store them in a locked container. Ammunition should be stored in a location separate from the gun.
Talking to Children About Guns
Children are naturally curious about things they don't know about or think are "forbidden." When a child asks questions or begins to act out "gun play," you may want to address his or her curiosity by answering the questions as honestly and openly as possible. This will remove the mystery and reduce the natural curiosity. Also, it is important to remember to talk to children in a manner they can relate to and understand. This is very important, especially when teaching children about the difference between "real" and "make-believe." Let children know that, even though they may look the same, real guns are very different than toy guns. A real gun will hurt or kill someone who is shot.
Instill a Mind Set of Safety and Responsibility
The American Academy of Pediatrics reports that adolescence is a highly vulnerable stage in life for teenagers struggling to develop traits of identity, independence and autonomy. Children, of course, are both naturally curious and innocently unaware of many dangers around them. Thus, adolescents as well as children may not be sufficiently safeguarded by cautionary words, however frequent. Contrary actions can completely undermine good advice. A "Do as I say and not as I do" approach to gun safety is both irresponsible and dangerous.
Remember that actions speak louder than words. Children learn most by observing the adults around them. By practicing safe conduct you will also be teaching safe conduct.
Back To Top
Safety and Storage Devices
If you decide to keep a firearm in your home you must consider the issue of how to store the firearm in a safe and secure manner. California recognizes the importance of safe storage by requiring that all firearms sold in California be accompanied by a DOJ-approved firearms safety device or proof that the purchaser owns a gun safe that meets regulatory standards established by the Department. The current list of DOJ-approved firearms safety devices and the gun safe standards can be viewed by visiting http://oag.ca.gov/firearms/fsdcertlist.
There are a variety of safety and storage devices currently available to the public in a wide range of prices. Some devices are locking mechanisms designed to keep the firearm from being loaded or fired, but don't prevent the firearm from being handled or stolen. There are also locking storage containers that hold the firearm out of sight. For maximum safety you should use both a firearm safety device and a locking storage container to store your unloaded firearm.
Two of the most common locking mechanisms are trigger locks and cable locks. Trigger locks are typically two-piece devices that fit around the trigger and trigger guard to prevent access to the trigger. One side has a post that fits into a hole in the other side. They are locked by a key or combination locking mechanism. Cable locks typically work by looping a strong steel cable through the action of the firearm to block the firearm's operation and prevent accidental firing. However, neither trigger locks nor cable locks are designed to prevent access to the firearm.
Smaller lock boxes and larger gun safes are two of the most common types of locking storage containers. One advantage of lock boxes and gun safes is that they are designed to completely prevent unintended handling and removal of a firearm. Lock boxes are generally constructed of sturdy, high-grade metal opened by either a key or combination lock. Gun safes are quite heavy, usually weighing at least 50 pounds. While gun safes are typically the most expensive firearm storage devices, they are generally more reliable and secure.
Remember: Safety and storage devices are only as secure as the precautions you take to protect the key or combination to the lock.
https://oag.ca.gov/firearms/tips
So, all of the things the OP talked about are REQUIRED by Commiefornia law. Not to be too harsh, but the kid made a decision to go kill people. That kind of decision making shows some serious deficiencies in her upbringing, but in the end, it is HER responsibility.
:(
I'm sure the media will give us a reasonable conversation.
Completely agree with education and responsibility but FPNI, this is a another Lib utopia of citizen disarmament. And we just had that thread where most agreed every kid is different. So why did she have access? Don't know but I do know there have been many cases of "teens" with access to guns saving the day in self-defense shootings. It wasn't too long ago that "teens" kept firearms in their rooms or over a fireplace in the family den. Of course back then we didn't keep humans children as long as possible.
Then you have the example of the Sandy Hook POS who obtained his own access in spite of his mother knowing he was a homicidal nutter. The TX church murderer who was a prohibited person, Aurora POS was also a PP.
A person with murder in his/her heart is going to find a way. I'm thankful no one was killed.
There are ~320,000,000 people in this country (or strip mall if you look at like the Dims). Take away all our rights and each day some POS will still find a way to be a POS. Your odds of winning the lottery are nearly the same as being a victim in a "mass shooting."
Our rights are in danger because the goalposts have been moved.
http://www.cnn.com/2018/02/01/us/los-angeles-sal-castro-middle-school-shooting/index.html?sr=fbCNN020118los-angeles-sal-castro-middle-school-shooting0112PMStoryLink
here we go yet again.
More cries for "gun-control". [emoji849]
The question that politicians should be asking is
"How are young children/teens under 18 getting access to firearms with which to commit these shootings?"
It's beyond comprehension to me, why any parent, grandparent, aunt, uncle, or other adult is leaving firearms out for kids to get ahold of to use for purposes like this.
While I'm not for gun-control, this irresponsibility needs to be addressed 100% and those who leave a firearm where a minor can get ahold of it and misuse it, should face criminal negligence charges, reckless endangerment, involuntary manslaughter charges and be held civilly liable for wrongful death and forfeit their damn rights to gun ownership.
This CANNOT continue or we arent going to have any gun rights or guns to worry about.
It's apparent we have a gun responsibility problem, lack of educated firearms owners and a lack of firearms proficiency amongst gun owners.
Outside of teaching a minor, hunting, range time or cleaning, there's zero reason a minor should have access to firearms.
How the hell did this girl get access to a gun and take it to school and then use it to shoot someone?
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You sound exactly like the people you're complaining about.
CoGirl303
02-01-2018, 15:35
You sound exactly like the people you're complaining about.
forgive me, but I'm tired of idiots pissing my gun rights away.
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hollohas
02-01-2018, 15:39
These kinda things have been happening forever. I'm 35 and remember news of school shootings when I was a kid. Schools in urban areas even had metal detectors back then. They will always happen no matter what laws we have. People have been killing people since the beginning of time.
It's a shame. But it's true.
hurley842002
02-01-2018, 15:43
You sound exactly like the people you're complaining about.Like...
Growing up in rural Colorado, teens had rifles in their pickups and many of us had our own firearms. My sister keeps a loaded rifle and pistol by the door on their farm because sometimes its needed to protect livestock, and my niece never felt the urge to take them and kill people. My teenage son who is graduating high school this year trained in martial arts since he was a little boy and has access to a variety of weapons. If he wanted to hurt or kill somebody, he wouldn't need any of them; he is a weapon. If a parent is worried about what their child might do if they have the tool to do it, then they better take a hard look at what they are doing as parents and the problems with their child.
Tools and access to these tools is not the issue. Activists on the left side of the political spectrum love to make it about the tools, but we can talk about firearms and laws until we are all blue in the face; ultimately, that will solve absolutely nothing. There is a problem with our culture and society that is driving these actions. I for one am not going to give away my natural and 2nd amendment rights so that a bunch of weak minded people can feel better about themselves that we “did something”. I taught my child how to identify threats and respond to them so he can function in a dangerous world; I feel perfectly fine with him going out into the world on his own, and making the right decisions.
It's beyond comprehension to me, why any parent, grandparent, aunt, uncle, or other adult is leaving firearms out for kids to get ahold of to use for purposes like this.
While I'm not for gun-control, this irresponsibility needs to be addressed 100% and those who leave a firearm where a minor can get ahold of it and misuse it, should face criminal negligence charges, reckless endangerment, involuntary manslaughter charges and be held civilly liable for wrongful death and forfeit their damn rights to gun ownership.
So you have never cheered for the numerous cases of minors defending themselves, and or their families with firearms?
I had access to a gun from the time I was 10 years old. I never shot anyone, but I did go hunting, and even to the range at times. Anytime you blame the tool, wrong path, and the path the communists/liberals want you to take. It is responsible behavior and devaluing of human life that are the issues.
forgive me, but I'm tired of idiots pissing my gun rights away.
Then why do it yourself?
Everything you mentioned in your original post are after the fact punishments that will never, ever be effective to prevent crime. Why? Because no one ever thinks there is a problem with their kid.
"Oh it's just a phase."
"He hasn't found out who he really is yet."
"He always acts appropriately while I'm around."
Etc, etc, etc. If parents don't believe there is a problem, they aren't going to take preventative measures. No parents hide alcohol from elementary school kids, because they don't think that they are drinking at that age.
As we've already discussed on here for many years, behavior cannot be legislated, and it would be foolhardy to try.
CoGirl303
02-01-2018, 16:25
Then why do it yourself?
Everything you mentioned in your original post are after the fact punishments that will never, ever be effective to prevent crime. Why? Because no one ever thinks there is a problem with their kid.
"Oh it's just a phase."
"He hasn't found out who he really is yet."
"He always acts appropriately while I'm around."
Etc, etc, etc. If parents don't believe there is a problem, they aren't going to take preventative measures. No parents hide alcohol from elementary school kids, because they don't think that they are drinking at that age.
As we've already discussed on here for many years, behavior cannot be legislated, and it would be foolhardy to try.
so by that logic we shouldnt hold anyone accountable or responsible for their actions anymore.
no more prison sentences for murderers, pedos and rapists, since punishment after the crime doesnt prevent crime. [emoji205]
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so by that logic we shouldnt hold anyone accountable or responsible for their actions anymore.
no more prison sentences for murderers, pedos and rapists, since punishment after the crime doesnt prevent crime. [emoji205]
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What EXACTLY do you propose?
A law? Just so happens, the law did not work.
A new law? Think that one's gonna work?
Ban the gun? Think that homicidal pre-teen cant find a knife?
> A law limiting the size of the knife?
>A law requiring locking up the knife?
>Ban the knife?
>>Ban the sharp stick?
hurley842002
02-01-2018, 16:42
Ahh, legislation based on feelings, that's always a good idea...
.455_Hunter
02-01-2018, 16:47
My views are biased on this topic...
By age 15, I kept a key to the family gunsafe on my key chain, right next to my band locker key. I served as the family armorer, loading/unloading the weapons we carried daily on our foothills property or National Forest trips. At 12, I had access to anything at anytime, but never once contemplated bringing a weapon to school for criminal purposes. In Jr. High, I remember going to my good friends house and admiring his family's 1911 and Python- UNSUPERVISED!!! Oh, the horrors! My other friend had a very nice K22 Smith which I greatly appreciated. All of this was in late 80's - early 90's in BOULDER!
StagLefty
02-01-2018, 17:02
[Pop] [Sarcasm2] And they're off !!!
[snip]
Because no one ever thinks there is a problem with their kid.
[snip]
Sandy Hook, Columbine, Aurora, our latest Highlands Ranch problem (Deputy Parrish)... All these parents knew their kids had issues and even acted on the signs.
I can't say you're wrong because we've seen plenty of exactly what you said. "My kid is perfect" "Society is the problem" "Cops are [insert "ist" here]"
We shouldn't dogpile OP.... The spirit of what she said is correct. The sad reality is that any issue with guns will be used to take our rights because that is the goal. Libs can't win with an armed population. If there was no such thing as "gun violence" they would use gun accidents. If no accidents, they would keep hyping the hysteria and building their scarecrows; gun owners are racist/xenophobes, gun owners are gun-happy and just waiting to kill, etc, etc...
And fools think they will stop at guns. They won't. Just need that monopoly on violence first.
There is absolutely nothing in thie article provided that states how the shooter got the gun. What's to say she didn't get it from somewhere other than family or adult friends? Speculation and/or assumption does nothing at this point.
California will do what Califoria does best, and that's to squeeze away the rights of its citizens, like draining an orange. They can't delve into the mental health of the shooter because she's a kid, and therefore only half-baked in their eyes. The only thing they can do is place more limitations on evil guns.
What we can do is keep a very close eye on the legislators, and be ready to contact our Congresspeople if soethig ugly comes down the pike.
What EXACTLY do you propose?
A law? Just so happens, the law did not work.
A new law? Think that one's gonna work?
Ban the gun? Think that homicidal pre-teen cant find a knife?
> A law limiting the size of the knife?
>A law requiring locking up the knife?
>Ban the knife?
>>Ban the sharp stick?
Great point and timely for me, just read this...
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/02/01/wisconsin-girl-15-sentenced-in-slender-man-stabbing-case.html
spqrzilla
02-01-2018, 17:41
so by that logic we shouldnt hold anyone accountable or responsible for their actions anymore.
no more prison sentences for murderers, pedos and rapists, since punishment after the crime doesnt prevent crime. [emoji205]
Your proposal, which as has been noted is already California law, holds people responsible for the actions of others. A distinction you fail to make in your argumentum ad absurdum.
Sandy Hook, Columbine, Aurora, our latest Highlands Ranch problem (Deputy Parrish)... All these parents knew their kids had issues and even acted on the signs.
I can't say you're wrong because we've seen plenty of exactly what you said. "My kid is perfect" "Society is the problem" "Cops are [insert "ist" here]"
We shouldn't dogpile OP.... The spirit of what she said is correct. The sad reality is that any issue with guns will be used to take our rights because that is the goal. Libs can't win with an armed population. If there was no such thing as "gun violence" they would use gun accidents. If no accidents, they would keep hyping the hysteria and building their scarecrows; gun owners are racist/xenophobes, gun owners are gun-happy and just waiting to kill, etc, etc...
And fools think they will stop at guns. They won't. Just need that monopoly on violence first.
My point is that I can't imagine a single parent, not one, who would go through the thought process of, "I had better lock up these guns, because if my kid takes them and shoots someone, then I'll be responsible for their actions and I don't want to get into trouble for the actions of my children." That's just not how people are wired to think and behave. It's a false narrative.
My point is that I can't imagine a single parent, not one, who would go through the thought process of, "I had better lock up these guns, because if my kid takes them and shoots someone, then I'll be responsible for their actions and I don't want to get into trouble for the actions of my children." That's just not how people are wired to think and behave. It's a false narrative.
You can't imagine that because you're a decent person/parent. Remember who writes these laws... They are projecting.
False narrative or not, I agree it doesn't matter. As I've said these POS find a way. Law, restriction, barriers be damned. The only way to protect against violence is to counter with an equal/great level of violence.
hollohas
02-01-2018, 18:38
So you have never cheered for the numerous cases of minors defending themselves, and or their families with firearms?
Whenever I think of a kid using a gun for defense, I think of this kid. Maybe not the best example, but it makes me laugh every time.
https://youtu.be/G7OshCHsfJI
CoGirl303
02-01-2018, 20:17
:(
I'm sure the media will give us a reasonable conversation.
Completely agree with education and responsibility but FPNI, this is a another Lib utopia of citizen disarmament. And we just had that thread where most agreed every kid is different. So why did she have access? Don't know but I do know there have been many cases of "teens" with access to guns saving the day in self-defense shootings. It wasn't too long ago that "teens" kept firearms in their rooms or over a fireplace in the family den. Of course back then we didn't keep humans children as long as possible.
Then you have the example of the Sandy Hook POS who obtained his own access in spite of his mother knowing he was a homicidal nutter. The TX church murderer who was a prohibited person, Aurora POS was also a PP.
A person with murder in his/her heart is going to find a way. I'm thankful no one was killed.
There are ~320,000,000 people in this country (or strip mall if you look at like the Dims). Take away all our rights and each day some POS will still find a way to be a POS. Your odds of winning the lottery are nearly the same as being a victim in a "mass shooting."
Our rights are in danger because the goalposts have been moved.
Adam Lanza (Sandy Hook) murdered his mother and then got the AR-15 anyhow and went to the school. But she knew he had severe mental issues and had locked his AR-15 up. There are exceptions I get that. A big part of the problem is, we've allowed doctors to dope kids up for anything and everything nowadays. Adam Lanza was doped up on anti-psychotics, which altered his state of mind. I have no doubt if the kid wasn't on that crap, Sandy Hook would have never happened.
ADHD, Bipolar, ADD, anxiety disorder. Half this stuff doesn't even really exist. It's fabricated by doctors to treat conditions that are bogus to generate revenue via prescriptions and appointments. That's a HUGE PERCENT of what's going on with kids these days. We've started relying on medicine to solve our problems, rather than teaching kids how to cope with their issues and work through them and resolve them.
Now the easy way out is, get a gun, kill everyone you hate and some innocents and then kill yourself.
This guy has a lot of it figured out, but because it's bad for business, the US Govt, the pharmaceutical companies and the Health Profession isn't listening.
https://breggin.com/
Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris were bullied and tormented prior to shooting up Columbine HS. I have no doubt had someone intervened, put a stop to it, those two wouldn't have done what they did.
So you have never cheered for the numerous cases of minors defending themselves, and or their families with firearms?
I had access to a gun from the time I was 10 years old. I never shot anyone, but I did go hunting, and even to the range at times. Anytime you blame the tool, wrong path, and the path the communists/liberals want you to take. It is responsible behavior and devaluing of human life that are the issues.
I've cheered for minors that defended themselves. I'd be lying if I said I didn't. But this isn't the world you or I grew up in. The 80's and 90's are gone, and one consistent thing I seem to notice out of the gun community is it's the same old line time after time, year after year. I have to constantly here people telling me if I don't support gun-control, I don't care about human life and that I sold my soul guns, blah blah blah.
I'm not blaming the tool, but I'm all for holding those responsible who are careless and negligent with those tools.
What EXACTLY do you propose?
A law? Just so happens, the law did not work.
A new law? Think that one's gonna work?
Ban the gun? Think that homicidal pre-teen cant find a knife?
> A law limiting the size of the knife?
>A law requiring locking up the knife?
>Ban the knife?
>>Ban the sharp stick?
What are the libs doing to us? Every time a shooting happens, they cry for gun-control.
Turn the tables on them. Dig up all the cases where a prosecutor and/or a Judge agreed to a plea deal, moved it down to a lesser charge, gave a light sentence for a gun crime, and throw it in their faces.
Demand Prosecutors and Judges stop agreeing to plea-deals for gun crimes. Doesn't matter if it's stealing a gun, armed robbery, aggravated assault, murder, armed rape, felon in possession, etc...NO MORE PLEA DEALS no more lighter sentences. The penalties need to be severe enough to dissuade the actions. Case and point...it's up to 10 years in prison, $250,000 fine if you get caught with an unregistered DIAS and M-16 fire control group (BCG, trigger, etc) in your AR-15, right?
Pretty steep. It's enough to dissaude you from doing it, isn't it? MOST gun owners aren't about to risk their rights and do it anyways. So don't tell me the penalties don't prevent crimes from happening.
If they want the gun community to be held accountable and responsible for firearms and whatnot, then they need to be willing to do their part and they aren't doing it. All they do is parade "gun-control", but when it comes down to it, they won't get tough on the actual criminals committing gun crimes, but they have no problem throwing the book at responsible gun owners. That's part of what we need to attack. That's what we need to fight.
I'm not saying every mass shooting can or will be avoided if people locked up their firearms, but even if you save ONE life by educating a family...is that not worth something?
I read this a year ago and I bawled my eyes when I did, because I don't understand for the life of me how this could have happened. The man was a POLICE OFFICER. He of all people should have known better. Yet, no charges were brought to my knowledge. Yes that man has to live with that guilt forever, but this was 100% preventable and he should have faced charges in my opinion. If I was a prosecutor, I'd have charged him. There's no freaking EXCUSE for this whatsoever.
http://fox8.com/2016/12/23/2-year-old-shoots-self-on-clevelands-west-side-police-say/
I also think there's next to no EXCUSE for a child to get their hands on their parents guns and go kill people. (exceptions being Adam Lanza killing his mom). Gun negligence is not something this community can continue to afford. There's too much at stake...our gun rights and human lives.
I also believe the Gun Rights Advocates need to start bringing lawsuits against the DOD and mental hospitals that fail to disclose criminal convictions, domestic violence arrests/restraining orders, and mental health instability. The Left sues and files lawsuits to hold the gun rights activists accountable...why shouldn't we do the same? Maybe all that happens and we just never hear about it? Conservative media should be LAMBASTING and CRUCIFYING Judges and Prosecutors that go easy on gun criminals, and Govt Departments that fail to do what they're supposed to be, the same way we get crucified by the Left when a mass shooting happens.
Sandy Hook, Columbine, Aurora, our latest Highlands Ranch problem (Deputy Parrish)... All these parents knew their kids had issues and even acted on the signs.
I can't say you're wrong because we've seen plenty of exactly what you said. "My kid is perfect" "Society is the problem" "Cops are [insert "ist" here]"
We shouldn't dogpile OP.... The spirit of what she said is correct. The sad reality is that any issue with guns will be used to take our rights because that is the goal. Libs can't win with an armed population. If there was no such thing as "gun violence" they would use gun accidents. If no accidents, they would keep hyping the hysteria and building their scarecrows; gun owners are racist/xenophobes, gun owners are gun-happy and just waiting to kill, etc, etc...
And fools think they will stop at guns. They won't. Just need that monopoly on violence first.
I do understand it's a complex issue, nor is my post perfect or a fix-all. I think it's going to take a combination of a LOT of different things to solve these issues.
Great point and timely for me, just read this...
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/02/01/wisconsin-girl-15-sentenced-in-slender-man-stabbing-case.html
thankfully they did the right thing, and sent her to a mental ward and not prison. Glad someone had their head on straight because prison would not have helped her a single bit.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This post below is my vision....something I am very passionate about because I want to PRESERVE our gun rights, and I believe we can do it through education and hands on training. I hope one day I will be having a program that goes around in the surrounding communities do just this.
Long read but bear with me. A friend inspired this post today (Originally posted November 16, 2017).
Conservatives and Republicans and Gun advocates always cringe at the words gun control and more restrictions. Naturally we are defensive when it comes to the mention of more gun laws, more restricting of gun rights, magazine bans and more intense background checks.
The left screams for gun control and gun confiscation and so-called “assault weapons bans”, shouting “no one NEEDS an AR-15.”
The right screams we don’t need more gun control, enforce the laws currently on the books and get rid of gun-free zones and more people need to carry guns to stop mass shootings.
Maybe what don’t need gun control or more gun rights...maybe what we really NEED is more Gun “PROFICIENCY”.
What do I mean by “GUN PROFICIENCY”? I’ll explain in detail.
Starting at the age of 7, I was taught by my Father how to identify every part of a firearm, safely handle, disassemble, clean, reassemble, load and unload, check for ammo and clear, safely store and safely and legally transport firearms from point A to point B, how to safely hunt with and operate a firearm with other people present on a trail.
I was REQUIRED by my Dad to identify from memory every part of his 16 gauge semi-automatic shotgun BEFORE EVER being allowed to handle it.
Then I had to clean it every time he came home from hunting and do it 100% to his liking. This included checking to make sure the safety was on before picking the shotgun up, pointing it in a safe direction, opening the action and checking the chamber and then running a few cycles of the action to ensure nothing was in the magazine tube and that shotgun was conpletely clear of ammo. Then I had to disassemble it, clean it, oil it, wipe off excess oil, and put it in his gun case and then he would take it to the storage closet and lock it up.
I had to do ALL of that to perfection BEFORE he would ever allow me to even take my hunter safety course. There was no room for error. When I was finally able to take my Missouri Hunter Safety Course, I was told anything less than 100% on the written test and shooting test was UNACCEPTABLE. If I didn’t get 100, I would not be allowed to hunt with a firearm, go to the range or handle any firearm until I achieved that. In 1993 when I took the class, there was a fee for the class. My Dad said he would pay for the first class only. If I didnt get a 100% on the written or shooting test, I would pay for the classes after that until I did. Needless to say, I got 100% on both, received my MO Hunter Safety Ed patch and certificate.
My reward was going on a few quail hunts with my Dad, but even still I was only allowed to walk along. He made sure I observed and learned the proper etiquette while walking a draw or a trail or a field with a firearm and with other hunters. Couldn’t wander off on my own, couldn’t get out in front of the guns or the dogs, had to maintain a very strict discipline and follow all directives without question. I could ask questions later in the van on the way home, but in the Field...orders were to be followed without hesitation or asking why. This was driven into my brain relentlessly.
Also driven into my brain was that this wasn’t the Nintendo, a movie or tv. Once you shoot something...it is dead. There’s no reset button, there’s no power down and then power it back on, no do over’s, no undo option, no bringing it back. Once you kill something, that’s it and you have to live with that whether it is a rabbit, a quail, a pheasant, a cat, dog or worst case scenario another human being.
On the fifth quail hunt, I was allowed to carry the shotgun. I unzipped the case, made sure the safety was on and pointed the muzzle in the air, opened the action and checked for ammo. Finding none, I loaded it under Dad’s supervision and again made sure the safety on.
I was instructed I could only carry it two ways...stock in my right hand and fore end in my left with muzzle angled up and to my left in the air or I could point it down at the ground and cradle it with the muzzle pointing down at the ground in front of me. For this hunt I was just carrying it and when the dogs went on point, I’d hand my Dad the shotgun.
After a few more hunts, Dad was satisifed I knew what was going on, that I would be safe and not hurt anyone or accidentally shoot anyone, that I knew what was expected of me and I was finally allowed to carry and shoot for the quail hunts.
Later that year for Christmas I was given my own shotgun. A New England Firearms 20 gauge single-shot shotgun.
I later went on to join the high school trapshooting team when I was 15. My Dad purchased a Remington 870 Express 12 gauge pump for me (I gave him the money). I went to state twice and was on the team for 3 years. Our coach preached and screamed gun safety and was very strict. Several students were dismissed from the team for horse play and poor gun etiquette. Most everyone knew that one mistake could shut the program down. We never had a single incident where someone got hurt or an accidental discharge.
The older I got the more my Dad taught me about guns and anger, controlling your emotions and not resorting to use a gun to solve a problem. He drove home key points that guns are to be used for hunting, self-defense and home defense and for recreational shooting (competition/target practice) and he was relentless. Even jokes and kidding around weren’t tolerated. Aggression of any sorts was seriously curbed and disciplined and firearms privileges were revoked and had to be re-earned. My parents worried incessantly about my anger and rage after my Grandpa died of lung cancer on Christmas of 1996, but I never resorted to firearms to deal with it, I knew the consequences and I knew that wasn’t the answer but I was mad at the world because my best friend was gone. I hurt for 5 years over it, but I got over it.
In 2001 when I was 21, I joined the Army. I learned basic rifle marksmanship, grouping, zeroing in, handling and military protocol. Despite being hospitalized with bacterial pneumonia for 10 days in Basic and having zero practice on my makeup qualification day, I went out and shot 27/40 and qualified. 23/40 was needed to pass. This was my FIRST time ever shooting a rifle. I had also not to this point had any experience with a handgun.
In 2011, I decided to get my concealed carry license. I went and took a course in January and I did an indepth amount of research on gun laws, concealed carry, gun cases and whatnot. After 6 months I applied for my HCP and got it in late June of 2011. I didn’t buy a handgun until August of 2011.
I have a near 100% safety record with firearms, my only mistake being a handgun left in my car by accident and it got broken into and it was stolen. Thankfully, it was recovered by the police the following day and I will NEVER make that mistake again.
Even in my home, my guns are under lock and key. My closet has a deadbolt lock on it and only I have the key. My guns all have trigger locks. My handgun is the only gun never locked up, because it’s my primary self-defense weapon and needs to be readily available at all times. Since I’m a lady truck driver and not home all the time, it’s my responsibility to ensure they are secured, can’t be readily stolen and/or misused for ill-intended purposes. I also have roommates, one of which is very liberal and while she doesn’t “hate” guns, she chooses not to own them and requested I keep them secured at all times which I am fine with. (this situation has changed, and I no longer live in that household, but the premise remains the same)
So in closing, maybe we as responsible gun owners and 2A rights advocates and activists need to consider programs which teach gun proficiency to young people, teenagers, young adults and even grown adults. I would even go so far as to say we might need some sort of litmus test or skills/proficiency test to be put in place in order to purchase and possess firearms. Those who don’t pass can take the necessary classes and get the necessary education.
Young drivers undergo a graduated drivers program. I think a graduated gun program would be a very useful tool in educating and training for youth, teens and even young adults and grown adults in order to purchase a firearm.
It’s not a restriction, doesn’t infringe upon their rights in any way...but it puts the burden on them to EARN it by learning in a similar manner that I learned as a kid growing up.
But those who don’t display or exhibit the proper skills in firearms shouldn’t be allowed to purchase or own firearms and the truth of the matter is, NOT EVERYONE has the mental or emotional capacity to be able to do such.
I say this because there’s far too many accidental shootings and accidental gun deaths from kids shooting their siblings because an ignorant parent left a firearm unsecured. There are far too many mass shootings.
Maybe we need to volunteer our time and spend some time serving and educating those in our communities to share what we know and teach those who don’t know about guns the right way to be a responsible gun owner.
If we want to retain our 2nd Amendment rights it is going to require us to step up to the plate and lead the way. Otherwise, the Democrats will see to it that they take all of our rights away for good and we can’t afford that.
It’s not perfect, it doesn’t fix everything or address every issue but I believe it’s a start in the right direction.
Your efforts would be better spent on fixing the Mental Health issues and teaching personal responsibility to kindergarteners. I would be just as correct to say that video games and movies are responsible for gun violence as anything. It is the human, not the tool.
Look up Jason Rocha shooting Scott Michael...classmates of mine. No one was surprised when Jason shot Scott, but no-one wanted to do anything. Same with almost all of the mass shooters. VAST majority had been in therapy, prescribed psychotropic drugs, were ON THE RADAR, and still murdered because adults were too whatever to fix the problem, or were scared of "hurting" someone's feelings. Its all crap and irresponsibility of the people who knew, but did nothing.
Are you going to advocate for locking up car keys, alcohol and pools too? Because those all result in more deaths of kids each year than guns.
To one point, after 10 months of asking, I am almost approved to start a sport shooting team at my kids High School. Yes, I think all kids should be taught, and I do so on a regular basis, and adults too. We can debate the merits and demerits to each other, but the passion needs to LEAVE here and be out in the wild to do any good.
Young drivers undergo a graduated drivers program. I think a graduated gun program would be a very useful tool in educating and training for youth, teens and even young adults and grown adults in order to purchase a firearm.
It’s not a restriction, doesn’t infringe upon their rights in any way...but it puts the burden on them to EARN it by learning in a similar manner that I learned as a kid growing up.
I think a graduated civics and economics program would be a very useful tool in educating and training for youth, teens and even young adults and grown adults in order to vote.
It’s not a restriction, doesn’t infringe upon their rights in any way...but it puts the burden on them to EARN it by learning in a similar manner that I learned as a kid growing up.
FFS
What else shall we legislate?
Should we require public speaking classes in order to protest?
Should we require parenting classes in order to have sex?
KevDen2005
02-01-2018, 20:45
I think a graduated civics and economics program would be a very useful tool in educating and training for youth, teens and even young adults and grown adults in order to vote.
It’s not a restriction, doesn’t infringe upon their rights in any way...but it puts the burden on them to EARN it by learning in a similar manner that I learned as a kid growing up.
FFS
What else shall we legislate?
Should we require public speaking classes in order to protest?
Should we require parenting classes in order to have sex?
We certainly need more fiscal training for our youth...maybe we wouldn't be in the predicament that we are in if we had that.
I think many on here can remember a time when our parents and grandparents did not lock up their firearms. We all knew where they were and that they were not secure. We knew not to touch them. All my friend's families the same way.
But I do think we have a people problem and a lack of familiarization and education on the matter.
KevDen2005
02-01-2018, 20:50
Almost every problem could be solved by the latter. Maybe even licensed. With a $10,000 cash deposit. [mop]
If you want to stop the problem, we'd have to drastically change our culture. No more social media posts about what we eat, no more participation awards. Statistically the individuality and ego of our society is what really underlies these issues, vs. other nations. It wasn't so much an issue before in part because people would bully the shit out of you if you got too full of yourself, and you didn't have the coddling/protective environment to foster it. Now every child thinks themselves a D-list celebrity thanks to social media, mostly. Now, there are advantages and disadvantages to every society - there are advantages to ours, but I'm not sure I'd call it the "best". I'm not sure any society is the "best" they all universally suck, so pick one.
This society makes fragile, inflated and unrealistic egos that are devastated by the stupidest shit. When you couple that with a cluster-b - discussed in other threads, they can and do react violently. The latter has always existed, it is the former that has conflagrated the problem.
I'm reminded of the book Starship Troopers (Not the terrible movie). The privileges of a Citizen.
You sound exactly like the people you're complaining about.
LIKE
I stopped reading when I got to the part about medical conditions not existing. What is your source, or professional experience to back up that statement? Should have plenty of time to provide as I go back and tackle the rest of that post.
CoGirl303
02-01-2018, 21:15
Should we require public speaking classes in order to protest?
considering there used to be debates in high schools and now we have idiots wearing vagina hats to protest? absolutely. [emoji23][emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]
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CoGirl303
02-01-2018, 21:19
I stopped reading when I got to the part about medical conditions not existing. What is your source, or professional experience to back up that statement? Should have plenty of time to provide as I go back and tackle the rest of that post.
30 years ago we didnt have all this crap. Nowadays it seems like every kid has some sort of mental this, behavioral that condition and they need 13 different drugs to deal with it. bs.
They need structure, physical activity, and discipline. not being doped on drugs to function.
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hollohas
02-01-2018, 21:30
I personally believe a big part of the problem is we how we teach our kids to deal with normal social problems.
First, we teach them that being bullied is some sort of mortal sin against them. It's not. It's an adversity that we should be teaching them to overcome. But instead we are teaching them they are victims. This extends to more than just bullying. We teach our kids that they are the best at everything. That they are equal to everyone else in every way. They aren't. We tell them they are amazing, when in reality they may not be. Then, when they are finally confronted with the reality that they aren't perfect, they feel victimized. Everyone has strengths and everyone has weakness. Not only do we not teach them to deal with the weakness, we fool them into believing they don't even have weakness.
Second, and this is a result of the first, We don't allow them to confront bullies. Because we treat them as victims, they run away from the problem. We teach them to be passive. In reality, most bullying would stop long before it got out of hand if the bullies got smacked in the mouth more often. But that doesn't happen anymore. Kids would get punished if they did such a thing. And punishing a kid for standing up to a bully gives justification to the bully and even makes the bully the defacto victim. So, for example, If a 4.0 student was getting bullied for being a nerd and he gave the bully a black eye, he would get suspended and his grades would suffer. Meanwhile the bully gets vindicated and keeps on bullying. How does that help anyone? We actually PUNISH our children for standing up to bullies. It's absurd.
All of this leads to kids feeling justified in taking it to the extreme because that victim mentality just builds up inside them.
As mentioned earlier, I am 35. I witnessed this change in the way parents and schools taught kids to deal with problems throughout middle and highschool. Even as a kid it was obvious things were changing. And even as a kid it seemed wrong.
It wasn't so much an issue before in part because people would bully the shit out of you if you got too full of yourself, and you didn't have the coddling/protective environment to foster it. Now every child thinks themselves a D-list celebrity thanks to social media, mostly. ..
..This society makes fragile, inflated and unrealistic egos that are devastated by the stupidest shit. When you couple that with a cluster-b - discussed in other threads, they can and do react violently. The latter has always existed, it is the former that has conflagrated the problem.
Exactly.
CoGirl303
02-01-2018, 21:35
I personally believe a big part of the problem is we how we teach our kids to deal with normal social problems.
First, we teach them that being bullied is some sort of mortal sin against them. It's not. It's an adversity that we should be teaching them to overcome. But instead we are teaching them they are victims. This extends to more than just bullying. We teach our kids that they are the best at everything. That they are equal to everyone else in every way. They aren't. We tell them they are amazing, when in reality they may not be. Then, when they are finally confronted with the reality that they aren't perfect, they feel victimized. Everyone has strengths and everyone has weakness. Not only do we not teach them to deal with the weakness, we fool them into believing they don't even have weakness.
Second, and this is a result of the first, We don't allow them to confront bullies. Because we treat them as victims, they run away from the problem. We teach them to be passive. In reality, most bullying would stop long before it got out of hand if the bullies got smacked in the mouth more often. But that doesn't happen anymore. Kids would get punished if they did such a thing. And punishing a kid for standing up to a bully gives justification to the bully and even makes the bully the defacto victim. So, for example, If a 4.0 student was getting bullied for being a nerd and he gave the bully a black eye, he would get suspended and his grades would suffer. Meanwhile the bully gets vindicated and keeps on bullying. How does that help anyone? We actually PUNISH our children for standing up to bullies. It's absurd.
All of this leads to kids feeling justified in taking it to the extreme because that victim mentality just builds up inside them.
As mentioned earlier, I am 35. I witnessed this change in the way parents and schools taught kids to deal with problems throughout middle and highschool. Even as a kid it was obvious things were changing. And even as a kid it seemed wrong.
I agree with this.
Many parents have made their kids "the most important things in their lives". So much to the point where the kids practically rule the household because they always come first.
Not to devalue kids, they are important, but they arent THE most important aspect of a family.
I'll see if I can find the posting I had on this that goes more in depth.
edit: here it is
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180202/c185fc5dc6ef31efdf29bfbe2fcfefc9.jpg
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hollohas
02-01-2018, 21:36
.
It’s not a restriction, doesn’t infringe upon their rights in any way...but it puts the burden on them to EARN it by learning in a similar manner that I learned as a kid growing up.
But those who don’t display or exhibit the proper skills in firearms shouldn’t be allowed to purchase or own firearms and the truth of the matter is, NOT EVERYONE has the mental or emotional capacity to be able to do such.
^This, by definition, infringes on individual rights. A RIGHT is not earned. By the very definition as laid out by our Founders, this RIGHT is given to us by God. Not by some government qualification program.
Wow.
spqrzilla
02-01-2018, 21:45
..... maybe we as responsible gun owners and 2A rights advocates and activists need to consider programs which teach gun proficiency to young people, teenagers, young adults and even grown adults. I would even go so far as to say we might need some sort of litmus test or skills/proficiency test to be put in place in order to purchase and possess firearms. Those who don’t pass can take the necessary classes and get the necessary education.
....
Maybe we need to volunteer our time and spend some time serving and educating those in our communities to share what we know and teach those who don’t know about guns the right way to be a responsible gun owner.
I don't think you are paying attention. A lot of us are. I spent nearly 20 years teaching Hunter Education as a volunteer for the CO DOW.
I say this because there’s far too many accidental shootings and accidental gun deaths from kids shooting their siblings because an ignorant parent left a firearm unsecured. There are far too many mass shootings.
Accidental shootings are at a historic low. "Mass shootings" are very hard to categorize statistically - mainly because they actually are relatively rare, and are heavily influenced by media attention.
Go look at the details of the recent shooting of Douglas County law enforcement. Read how much intervention actually happened by multiple law enforcement agencies, in at least two states. How the shooter actually escaped from an involuntary hold.
The problem with mentally ill people like that one has nothing to do with safe storage laws, nor any other gun control law. Its that our ability to deal with mentally ill people is utterly broken because of overly restrictive court precedent.
CoGirl303
02-01-2018, 21:46
^This, by definition, infringes on individual rights. A RIGHT is not earned. By the very definition as laid out by our Founders, this RIGHT is given to us by God. Not by some government qualification program.
Wow.
they also didnt have to worry about the nonsense thats going on today that we do either.
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KevDen2005
02-01-2018, 21:49
they also didnt have to worry about the nonsense thats going on today that we do either.
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Are you suggesting that the framers of the Constitution and the founders had no ability to assume that population would increase, social problems would exist, and technology would advance?
They build the system in a manner so it could not be haphazardly changed. And most here prefer it that way. Dangerous Freedom! That's the price we pay.
And the media makes certain to push certain agendas to make it seem like these problems exist at much higher rates than they actually do. People were just as evil in 1818 and 1918. But populations were smaller and separated without modern technology to see every little incident.
CoGirl303
02-01-2018, 21:52
Are you suggesting that the framers of the Constitution and the founders had no ability to assume that population would increase, social problems would exist, and technology would advance?
They build the system in a manner so it could not be haphazardly changed. And most here prefer it that way. Dangerous Freedom! That's the price we pay.
And the media makes certain to push certain agendas to make it seem like these problems exist at much higher rates than they actually do. People were just as evil in 1818 and 1918. But populations were smaller and separated without modern technology to see every little incident.
they were profoundly smart men for sure, but lets not elevate them to heretic or seer status.
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vectorsc
02-01-2018, 21:52
Listen - an access control mechanism for guns has to be accessible at some time. If someone you trust sees you enter be safe combo or steals your keys out of your coat or or or...
I wouldn’t be surprised if this wasn’t bullying related. Maybe it’s time folks raise their kids right, and for schools to take a “get the fuck out you failed this entire year” approach to bullying.
I don’t let my kid go to school on the public side anymore because 24/7 internet connected harassment from 20 people all at once is the sort of shit you might use to break down a particularly reluctant terrorist in an interrogation...
Yeah - I got bullied in school too in the 80’s. Problem was is I had the 80’s solution, which was by and far the best solution. And that was “dish out a royal assbeating”. Worked so good I even got to be friends with some of the bullies who calmed down after having 50 percent of the kids they bullyed bust their face. Texas was great.
Heck, the kid is homeschooled because he defended his friend from a bully that was kicking his ass hard and violent. And it was all on camera. And my son got into serious trouble because “all violence is bad kids. Just step over your buddy’s tooth there and see if you can get a teacher to interrupt their break to scold the bully gently”
vectorsc
02-01-2018, 21:55
I agree. The founding fathers obviously couldn’t predict how goddamn stupid their people would become. Otherwise the Constitution would say “all government agents who propose any restriction upon arms or the establishment of a surveillance state shall be immediately hung.”
they were profoundly smart men for sure, but lets not elevate them to heretic or seer status.
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KevDen2005
02-01-2018, 22:04
they were profoundly smart men for sure, but lets not elevate them to heretic or seer status.
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How about try reading some of their writings, including those that were inventors. They had the ability to assume many of those things. Just like you can and I would suggest that most on this board aren't as smart as those men were.
hollohas
02-01-2018, 22:06
they also didnt have to worry about the nonsense thats going on today that we do either.
Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkHogwash.
Their world was just as violent and likely more so. They had a lot more to worry about than we do. And they still didn't believe in making people pass a test for guns.
KevDen2005
02-01-2018, 22:07
Hogwash.
Their world was just as violent and likely more so. They had a lot more to worry about than we do. And they still didn't believe in making people pass a test for guns.
Seems like I read that somewhere
vectorsc
02-01-2018, 22:17
I feel so strange sometimes trying to argue that liberal fuckheads who are too goddamn stupid to poor piss out of a boot shouldn’t have their gun rights expunged. I will do so because it’s immoral to remove a persons right to defend themselves, but...
Reminds me of how picketing an abortion clinic must be like...
First customer shows up and you greet them with a loud “Don’t get an abortion! You are killing your baby!!!”
Second customer “you. God. Yuck. Lady. Stop dragging your dog face down by a leash. Can’t you see it’s dead? Don’t get an abortion. You are killing your child maybe”
Third customer “are you smoking meth? Fuck. Do you know how bad that is for your baby?”
By the time you met 50 of the customers on their way in you are passing out gift cards to the clinic, and studying how to properly bend the coat hanger for your new career...
CoGirl303
02-01-2018, 22:38
They're calling this an "accidental shooting". gun was in the backpack, she dropped the pack it went off (twice?) and hit two students. was very remorseful, sobbed I didnt mean it, and is being charged with negligent discharge.
Well there's evidence that firearms proficiency might have prevented this.
Still unknown...where did she get it and why was it in her backpack brought to school?
http://via.kdvr.com/AedUQ
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They're calling this an "accidental shooting". gun was in the backpack, she dropped the pack it went off (twice?) and hit two students. was very remorseful, sobbed I didnt mean it, and is being charged with negligent discharge.
Well there's evidence that firearms proficiency might have prevented this.
Still unknown...where did she get it and why was it in her backpack brought to school?
http://via.kdvr.com/AedUQ
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Not so much. One rule among many broken tends to get lost in the shuffle. There's a whole lot of "she shouldn't have done that," to hold her accountable, and then there's the whole, "it dropped and just went off" BS. I suspect that this is a panicked 12-year-old's narrative.
was it a P320? [Coffee]
LOL! That was my thought, but there's no description of the gun yet. Save that it fit in a backpack.
30 years ago we didnt have all this crap. Nowadays it seems like every kid has some sort of mental this, behavioral that condition and they need 13 different drugs to deal with it. bs.
They need structure, physical activity, and discipline. not being doped on drugs to function.
What exactly is your threshold for determining what things that weren't around when we were kids is fake or not? Because...
all the concussion stuff coming out the past ten years. The NFL hid the evidence from players, even though they KNEW what was going on. Watch the movie Concussion with Will Smith. great movie.
More and more parents aren't letting their kids play football anymore. Quality talented QB's have been marginally thin for years and it's expected to get worse. In the next 15-30 years I think we will see the quality of the NFL and college product really drop. Won't be surprised to see the NFL dissolve entirely.
*______Insert joke about structure, physical activity, and discipline here_______
Great-Kazoo
02-02-2018, 00:25
They're calling this an "accidental shooting". gun was in the backpack, she dropped the pack it went off (twice?) and hit two students. was very remorseful, sobbed I didnt mean it, and is being charged with negligent discharge.
Well there's evidence that firearms proficiency might have prevented this.
Still unknown...where did she get it and why was it in her backpack brought to school?
http://via.kdvr.com/AedUQ
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I've been reading, and quiet (I know surprise) till now.
Let me lay it out for you.
It's L fukin A every person in that area has a gun, possible more depending who they lent it to, or borrowed from since the majority of them are stolen or of questionable straw purchase origin.
Why was it in her backpack? Probably because it kept falling out of her waist band. Urban areas / inner cities don't give a crap about training, gun safety, safe storage or every other talking point you put forward.
So please lets stop this B.S , COMMON SENSE, BULLSHIT. NOW!
I don't know what it is about (lately) new members as well as some of the regular and past ones.
10 round mags don't make us safer, waiting periods, permit to buy ammo, banning semi automatic firearms don't do a damn thing when it come to gun violence.
It's the person who picks it up off the table, out of the safe, or off the street. Weak, spineless, losers who instead of eating the barrel try inflicting as much damage as possible before it's over. Or the beef over turf, dissing someone they know, drug distribution disagreements. And Yes, over medicated, under appreciated kids and society as a whole.
Throw in a complacent judicial system where plea bargaining, is easier than doing the work to ensure they don't get out till they're on a slab.
People know there's no serious repercussion for anything they do. Why should there be, Illegals run CA as they do other D controlled places. Open door needle exchanges, come in, shoot heroin in a "Safe Space" than on the street. Coddle bums, more worried about an ACLU lawsuit then the taxpayers they're suppose to be working for.
So trying to say gun safety, or better storage could or may have prevented this [LOL]
Well let's not create the impression that we do not appreciate new members. We are in desperate need of new members and the new dialogue is refreshing. Even if it is stuff we hashed out years ago already.
Great-Kazoo
02-02-2018, 01:05
Well let's not create the impression that we do not appreciate new members. We are in desperate need of new members and the new dialogue is refreshing. Even if it is stuff we hashed out years ago already.
New members are a great thing. Yet when the (as you said) stuff we hashed out years ago, keeps popping up. One would "think" by the end of first page, one would get a hint what they are proposing, isn't something that works, has worked, or will work.
Or are "we" willing to give up, or give in under the guise of Compromise, a Right.
Hey, beggars can't be choosers. Lots of good threads about training and gear as well. :p
Grant H.
02-02-2018, 03:22
I don't understand how people think that continuing to compromise will preserve our rights...
Every time we, the responsible gun owners of American, compromise, we lose. Proposing measures to please/satiate the liberals and "preserve" what's left of our rights does nothing but erode our rights further.
hurley842002
02-02-2018, 05:36
Hey, beggars can't be choosers. Lots of good threads about training and gear as well. :pI think there is even a thread about being a good listener as well, or perhaps that one was in my head.
buffalobo
02-02-2018, 06:48
I think there is even a thread about being a good listener as well, or perhaps that one was in my head.Good listeners? Damn, gonna have to search for that one.
If you're unarmed, you are a victim
Jeffrey Lebowski
02-02-2018, 07:16
This ain’t no disco,
it ain’t no country club either...
It's L fukin A
buffalobo
02-02-2018, 07:43
https://youtu.be/DblvhECdws0
If you're unarmed, you are a victim
CoGirl303
02-02-2018, 09:26
New members are a great thing. Yet when the (as you said) stuff we hashed out years ago, keeps popping up. One would "think" by the end of first page, one would get a hint what they are proposing, isn't something that works, has worked, or will work.
Or are "we" willing to give up, or give in under the guise of Compromise, a Right.
so you propose to sit on your duff, be idle and do nothing while libs continue to restrict
- magazine capacity
- shotgun extension tubes
- rear stocks/braces
- types of rifles
- binary triggers
- competition triggers
- bump stocks
- hand grips
etc...and we slowly but surely have our rights stripped away?
absolutely brilliant. Keep going to the range and plinking away at non-moving targets and going on with your day to day routine. [emoji19]
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hollohas
02-02-2018, 09:51
Seriously?
Your argument is that to prevent additional restrictions on specific guns or parts, we should restrict ALL guns by making people pass a government test to get them? I'm not getting how that's better.
CoGirl303
02-02-2018, 10:37
Seriously?
Your argument is that to prevent additional restrictions on specific guns or parts, we should restrict ALL guns by making people pass a government test to get them? I'm not getting how that's better.
First off, it doesnt have to be a govt test.
This is something WE as gun owners, activists and advocates can be (and should be) doing on our own anyways.
Advocating safety is never a bad thing. Teaching proper gun etiquette is never a bad thing. Getting people involved, getting hands-on with ignorant people is a key to changing the culture of how our society views and treats guns. When you change thought processes and viewpoints, you change perception as well as votes.
You have to take a class and test for Hunter Safety Ed.
you have to take a course and test for concealed carry.
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Adam Lanza (Sandy Hook) murdered his mother and then got the AR-15 anyhow and went to the school. But she knew he had severe mental issues and had locked his AR-15 up. There are exceptions I get that. A big part of the problem is, we've allowed doctors to dope kids up for anything and everything nowadays. Adam Lanza was doped up on anti-psychotics, which altered his state of mind. I have no doubt if the kid wasn't on that crap, Sandy Hook would have never happened.
[snip]
The exception proves the rule. And mental health is just one aspect of this but is the apparent harm this policy is trying to prevent. It could really be any motivation.
These mass murders are, generally speaking, exceptions. But exceptions that occur because evil people will find a way to evil things. Look at the statistics (good graphics at link too large to post)...
http://www.businessinsider.com/gun-death-statistics-assault-mass-shootings-accidents-2017-10
Your odds of dying in "Airplane and spaceships incident" are greater than a mass murder/shooting. We constantly hear about how safe air travel is. Perhaps Demanding Moms should take action against United Airlines?
Again, we let media move the goalposts and talk about this like it's an everyday occurrence to archive a political goal. I can't even do the math on this without using MS Excel (264 / 320,000,000).
We should not let rights be taken away with false facts and hyperbole. Particularly when the harm of taking those rights is so great. Physical controls and qualifications as solutions is fallacy.
Example...
There is an island on this planet that has all but banned all guns. It illegal to defend oneself with any weapon. A homeowner defending against a home invasion will do more time in prison than the home-invader. This society has a near police state with prohibitions on free speech (jail time) and the most CCTVs of any other country in the world.
This island has a "world class" city. Gun violence continues to increase in that city ...
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-39578500
The police in London used to not carry firearms. Lately Scotland Yard has been quietly arming PCs with MP5s. Yup, they skipped sidearms and went straight to submachine guns! Why? Because gun control has failed and the only way to stop violence is to use an equal/greater level of violence. Thus they need guns!
If a society that is physically cut off from the world has completely prohibited the individual possession of firearms has increasing rates of gun violence, or any rate above 0% for that matter, then how do any gun control policies solve this problem?
Grabbers will argue their policies decrease gun violence by an amount they never have to quantify, but the continued availability of firearms (and other weapons) prove violence (gun or not) has little to do with policy and more to do with other factors.
I don't understand how people think that continuing to compromise will preserve our rights...
Every time we, the responsible gun owners of American, compromise, we lose. Proposing measures to please/satiate the liberals and "preserve" what's left of our rights does nothing but erode our rights further.
^ THIS. Over and over and over.
First off, it doesnt have to be a govt test.
This is something WE as gun owners, activists and advocates can be (and should be) doing on our own anyways.
Advocating safety is never a bad thing. Teaching proper gun etiquette is never a bad thing. Getting people involved, getting hands-on with ignorant people is a key to changing the culture of how our society views and treats guns. When you change thought processes and viewpoints, you change perception as well as votes.
You have to take a class and test for Hunter Safety Ed.
you have to take a course and test for concealed carry.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't instill a sense of responsibility in them unless they have the basic ethical fortitude as a part of their make-up. Yes, basic education and continuing education are incredibly important. The problem comes when people decide, "I know how to handle a gun" and then look at it as a solution to something they consider a problem. It reflects poorly upon everyone.
We don't have a gun problem We have a perception problem.
Add in the liberal echo chamber, mixed wth the Media puppetry pageant, and the problem is magnified tenfold.
Great-Kazoo
02-02-2018, 11:58
Those shouldnt exist either. bad example. The government shouldnt have been "given" (stolen) the power to make either of those rules.
When it comes to Constitutional RIGHTS there should be no restrictions. But that's just Common Sense ;)
Imagine if there was a movement under the guise of common sense, sensible laws, for another Constitutional Amendment , like the 14th
OR for voting. The anti gun movement would stroke out After all, to them it's just an outdated piece of paper. . in need of revision.
hollohas
02-02-2018, 18:31
Advocating safety is never a bad thing. Teaching proper gun etiquette is never a bad thing. Getting people involved, getting hands-on with ignorant people is a key to changing the culture of how our society views and treats guns.
Your argument is evolving from 'people should have to earn their right to own guns'
To
'it is good for society if we teach people about guns.'
No one will argue that teaching people about guns is bad. Damn near everyone hear does this regularly within their sphere of influence.
However, it won't stop a murderer.
Rucker61
02-02-2018, 22:03
This is not a gun problem, it is a people problem. Ban people.
Most of'em are already in Cali where we want them.
Grant H.
02-02-2018, 22:08
so you propose to sit on your duff, be idle and do nothing while libs continue to restrict
- magazine capacity
- shotgun extension tubes
- rear stocks/braces
- types of rifles
- binary triggers
- competition triggers
- bump stocks
- hand grips
etc...and we slowly but surely have our rights stripped away?
absolutely brilliant. Keep going to the range and plinking away at non-moving targets and going on with your day to day routine. [emoji19]
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
And your solution, thus far, has been to restrict our rights voluntarily in the hope that the libs will be nice and not take any more...
Absolutely brilliant...
Your backpedaling aside, that is what you were proposing. That further restrictions for gun ownership be put in place.
First off, it doesnt have to be a govt test.
This is something WE as gun owners, activists and advocates can be (and should be) doing on our own anyways.
Advocating safety is never a bad thing. Teaching proper gun etiquette is never a bad thing. Getting people involved, getting hands-on with ignorant people is a key to changing the culture of how our society views and treats guns. When you change thought processes and viewpoints, you change perception as well as votes.
You have to take a class and test for Hunter Safety Ed.
you have to take a course and test for concealed carry.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
A test for concealed carry? Lol. No, there is no such thing, and if you had to take one, you should do a better job reading the requirements.
Hunters safety? Sure, there's a test. There shouldn't be, but that's a good example of "common sense" restrictions... Pointless, cumbersome, and doesn't stop anyone from breaking hunting laws if they are so inclined...
Your "common sense" BS won't stop a damn thing. It will just make it easier for the libs to take more of our rights.
CoGirl303
02-03-2018, 10:07
Hunters safety? Sure, there's a test. There shouldn't be, but
I agree there shouldn't be. But as long as you and others like you keep living in your "well there shouldn't be" fantasy world, you'll inadvertently keep pissing our rights away through inaction.
Stupid can't be fixed.
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hollohas
02-03-2018, 10:45
I agree there shouldn't be. But as long as you and others like you keep living in your "well there shouldn't be" fantasy world, you'll inadvertently keep pissing our rights away through inaction.
Stupid can't be fixed.
Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkAh. Instead we could intentionally piss our rights away by actually suggesting ways to infringe on them further... Gotcha.
CoGirl303
02-03-2018, 10:49
Ah. Instead we could intentionally piss our rights away by actually suggesting ways to infringe on them further... Gotcha.
training and displaying proficiency in the handling, storing, cleaning, use and transporting of firearms is not pissing any rights away or infringing on anyones rights.
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It is if it stands in the way of access. Rights with barriers to entry aren't rights at all.
GilpinGuy
02-03-2018, 10:55
training and displaying proficiency in the handling, storing, cleaning, use and transporting of firearms is not pissing any rights away or infringing on anyones rights.
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So, who gets to decide if you are proficient? Government? [LOL] Rights gone.
It is if it stands in the way of access. Rights with barriers to entry aren't rights at all.
This
Personally, I always felt that the right to a speedy trial should only be granted after a several week course on the sixth amendment.
training and displaying proficiency in the handling, storing, cleaning, use and transporting of firearms is not pissing any rights away or infringing on anyones rights.
Hey, I'll run my AR or my Glock dirty if I damn well please.
Personally, I always felt that the right to a speedy trial should only be granted after a several week course on the sixth amendment.
IMO, granted in the movie theater parking lot is a better solution at times.
GilpinGuy
02-03-2018, 11:18
I guess you should need permission to have kids too. Ya know, so the gov knows that you are proficient at raising quality taxpayers who know how to handle themselves, clean themselves, transport themselves to and fro, and (ahem) use themselves.
GilpinGuy
02-03-2018, 11:28
Seriously, cogirl, infringing on others rights does not prevent crime.
We live in a "relatively" free society where there are responsibilities to freedom. Violate that responsibility and you will be punished.
There are also consequences to freedom. Some of those consequences are things like scumbags doing things that violate their responsibilities.
There is no perfect world.
Jeffrey Lebowski
02-03-2018, 14:05
Maybe we should make people take a civics and history test to vote. Or you can only vote if you own land or a house (on a lot).
Honestly, I could be talked into making some sort of restriction on voting for taxes if you do not pay taxes.
However, the referendums we have on this which are direct voting are really a drop in the bucket compared to FedGov taxes, which there would be no practical way to do.
Grant H.
02-03-2018, 14:13
I agree there shouldn't be. But as long as you and others like you keep living in your "well there shouldn't be" fantasy world, you'll inadvertently keep pissing our rights away through inaction.
I'm glad you know what I, and many others on this board, are involved in, to the point of knowing that we're inactive in trying to preserve our rights.
Even if I was being inactive, that's better than your chosen course of actively giving the anti-gun folks the keys to the kingdom in regards to preventing law abiding citizens from exercising their 2nd amendment RIGHT!
As Irving said, and you don't seem to comprehend, adding some sort of test to allow someone to own/handle a gun means it isn't a right. That means it's a privilege bestowed upon us by the entity that administers the test. When that entity decides that law abiding citizens shouldn't have guns, there goes our LEGAL access to guns. Guess what this won't stop... ILLEGAL access to guns, like this situation, and nearly every other mass shooting ever...
Would you support a "test" for the privilege to use Free Speech? As you have so vehemently said in other threads, words can be dangerous, can harm others, etc... Kinda sounds like a gun. A firearm can be dangerous, can harm others, etc... You want to restrict that. Why the hell not free speech? Besides in your fantasy world, shootings like this happen because of free speech, so we would be better off restricting free speech instead of guns. If we only restrict guns, they will use a hammer, fork, bow and arrow, fists, knives, etc... If we restrict free speech, the need to restrict firearms is removed...
Quit compromising every single person's "unalienable rights" to appease your need for "something to change"....
Stupid can't be fixed.
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On this, we can most certainly agree...
CoGirl303
02-03-2018, 14:27
update. 12 year old girl has been charged with two felonies. minor in possession of a handgun, bringing a gun on school property (gun free zone law).
Prosecutors trying to figure out where she got it and why she brought it to school.
male student shot in the head is in critical condition. female student shot in wrist is gonna be ok.
http://www.9news.com/article/news/nation-world/prosecutors-gun-went-off-in-girls-backpack-at-la-school/
perhaps if someone had taught her firearms safety...this probably doesnt ever happen. [emoji19]
So, who gets to decide if you are proficient? Government? [LOL] Rights gone.
how bout those who have a lot of firearms experience, handling and a safe track record behind it.
We can do things without the Govt being directly involved and accomplish things without giving up our rights in the process. You have grey matter between your ears...use it.
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CoGirl303
02-03-2018, 14:30
Hey, I'll run my AR or my Glock dirty if I damn well please.
lol. my point was more on how to clean, rather than when to clean.
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Jeffrey Lebowski
02-03-2018, 14:34
how bout those who have a lot of firearms experience, handling and a safe track record behind it.
We can do things without the Govt being directly involved and accomplish things without giving up our rights in the process. You have grey matter between your ears...use it.
Who oversees the program, in that case? Who determines experience?
Ultimately, it gets to some governing body, even if private, and what if the individual does not like said governing body? (Or worse - vice-versa)
I'm not seeing the connection between learning firearm safety and proficiency and preventing premeditated acts of violence? All the knowledge of safe handling in the world does nothing to prevent ill intent.
Further, if this girl had been properly trained in the use of firearms, we'd less likely have any injured survivors to talk about.
Grant H.
02-03-2018, 14:46
update. 12 year old girl has been charged with two felonies. minor in possession of a handgun, bringing a gun on school property (gun free zone law).
Prosecutors trying to figure out where she got it and why she brought it to school.
male student shot in the head is in critical condition. female student shot in wrist is gonna be ok.
http://www.9news.com/article/news/nation-world/prosecutors-gun-went-off-in-girls-backpack-at-la-school/
perhaps if someone had taught her firearms safety...this probably doesnt ever happen. [emoji19]
Perhaps. We'll never know.
how bout those who have a lot of firearms experience, handling and a safe track record behind it.
We can do things without the Govt being directly involved and accomplish things without giving up our rights in the process. You have grey matter between your ears...use it.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Ah, so your idea will have no authority or enforcement... Cool.
Who, or what, defines "lots of firearms experience, handling and safe track record"? Since you were in the military, I assume you're going to suggest military experience. But what level? SF is FAR better trained than grunts, so is SF the standard for authority? Well that'll be problematic. That's a small-ish group to try and test/police 100+ million legal gun owners, and it does absolutely NOTHING to prevent criminals from doing criminal things...
Congrats, you've now added road blocks for legal gun owners, and done NOTHING to prevent crimes...
Grant H.
02-03-2018, 14:47
snip...
Further, if this girl had been properly trained in the use of firearms, we'd less likely have any injured survivors to talk about.
Shhhhh.... That doesn't fit into the narrative of self regulation to fix the problem...
Requiring people to know how to use firearms safely or effectively before they legally buy a gun will only mean that those people that have no current record of criminal behavior or severe mental instability but do in fact have mental issues and or evil intent will now have a baseline of training to know how to use their weapons more effectively against the rest of us.
Those who illegally purchase firearms for nefarious purposes will continue to do so.
Humans cannot fix evil. Only God can.
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how bout those who have a lot of firearms experience, handling and a safe track record behind it.
That sounds like a great idea. One should have to show a track record of making good, responsible decisions prior to voting, joining the media, etc.
update. 12 year old girl has been charged with two felonies. minor in possession of a handgun, bringing a gun on school property (gun free zone law).
Prosecutors trying to figure out where she got it and why she brought it to school.
male student shot in the head is in critical condition. female student shot in wrist is gonna be ok.
http://www.9news.com/article/news/nation-world/prosecutors-gun-went-off-in-girls-backpack-at-la-school/
perhaps if someone had taught her firearms safety...this probably doesnt ever happen. [emoji19]
how bout those who have a lot of firearms experience, handling and a safe track record behind it.
We can do things without the Govt being directly involved and accomplish things without giving up our rights in the process. You have grey matter between your ears...use it.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Well, that certainly doesn't fit the narrative of what happened- carrying a gun in her backpack, dropping the backpack, and somehow five people get injured when it "went off". I'm thinking a great deal more than teaching firearms safety would be required in this particular case. And teaching firearms safety does not correlate with making sure this 'probably doesn't ever happen'. I understand the need and desire to feel like we're "doing something" when events like this occur. As everyone else in this thread is saying, a sweeping reform that affects everyone else is NOT the way to go about it. Education of firearms is incredibly valuable, but it is not the answer many scenarios.
And if you continue to insult people by either name-calling or suggesting nobody is using their grey matter, you're going to get a break from posting. I suggest you cool down a bit before responding, and debate without getting personal.
hurley842002
02-03-2018, 18:25
Well, that certainly doesn't fit the narrative of what happened- carrying a gun in her backpack, dropping the backpack, and somehow five people get injured when it "went off". I'm thinking a great deal more than teaching firearms safety would be required in this particular case. And teaching firearms safety does not correlate with making sure this 'probably doesn't ever happen'. I understand the need and desire to feel like we're "doing something" when events like this occur. As everyone else in this thread is saying, a sweeping reform that affects everyone else is NOT the way to go about it. Education of firearms is incredibly valuable, but it is not the answer many scenarios.
And if you continue to insult people by either name-calling or suggesting nobody is using their grey matter, you're going to get a break from posting. I suggest you cool down a bit before responding, and debate without getting personal.Thanks Grey!
Jeffrey Lebowski
02-03-2018, 19:56
carrying a gun in her backpack, dropping the backpack, and somehow five people get injured when it "went off".
Yeah, that’s the thing....
Two were shot. One in the head and one in the wrist. Easily happen with one bullet in a classroom. The other people injured were not shot.
Two were shot. One in the head and one in the wrist. Easily happen with one bullet in a classroom. The other people injured were not shot.
I had not been aware of that, thanks. Further research states just what you stated- and the three other injuries were superficial cuts to the faces, or head injuries, from broken glass.
Jeffrey Lebowski
02-03-2018, 22:33
You can easily kill a person ricocheting a bullet off of a hard surface to kill a person on the SF pier, but these scenarios raise eyebrows.
GilpinGuy
02-04-2018, 09:13
We can do things without the Govt being directly involved and accomplish things without giving up our rights in the process. You have grey matter between your ears...use it.
Thanks for the insult. Very nice. Way to make an entrance.
Who, exactly, should be declared "He who deems others worthy to exercise their God given rights"? <insert ominous music, maybe fog and some dim lighting>
I haven't heard a good answer yet. And don't say "those with lots of experience". There are plenty of dumbass firearms owners with lots of experience who haven't shot their toes off....yet.
Great-Kazoo
02-04-2018, 09:51
Thanks for the insult. Very nice. Way to make an entrance.
Who, exactly, should be declared "He who deems others worthy to exercise their God given rights"? <insert ominous music, maybe fog and some dim lighting>
I haven't heard a good answer yet. And don't say "those with lots of experience". There are plenty of dumbass firearms owners with lots of experience who haven't shot their toes off....yet.
Yet it's that line of thinking that the D's push when it comes to availability of certain guns. Only Military and law enforcement should have access to such powerful weapons.
They area also the same type who say our Law Enforcement has too much firepower. Which leads us to that circular thinking, until no one has access to any firearms.
But at least those qualified will be able to own them, till they're not.
Now that's using the ol gray matter me boyo
hollohas
02-04-2018, 11:04
how bout those who have a lot of firearms experience, handling and a safe track record behind it.
We can do things without the Govt being directly involved and accomplish things without giving up our rights in the process. You have grey matter between your ears...use it.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
W.O.W.
Who vets these "experienced" individuals and reviews their "track record"? Who gives them the authority to give an FFL approval to sell a firearm to someone?
There is no privatized way to do that. Period. Giving some corporation or non-profit, which I have no influence in what-so-ever, the keys to grant me my Rights...or not? No thank you. I'll pass in the strongest of terms. Forget that idea. That's eff'ing nonsense.
Furthermore, that doesn't address the issue that ANY "test", privatized or government, is a restriction on the Right. I'm not sure how we can make that any clearer.
I think that Dragonman should do the vetting. He's got lots of experience.
I'm still trying to figure out just what happened. I've read that it was a ND from a semi-auto in a backpack/bag, but also another classmate stating the gun was in the girl's hand. It's difficult to find more info since this didn't meet the lefty/MSM agenda.
Jeffrey Lebowski
02-04-2018, 14:01
Indeed.
CoGirl303
02-05-2018, 03:11
I'm not seeing the connection between learning firearm safety and proficiency and preventing premeditated acts of violence? All the knowledge of safe handling in the world does nothing to prevent ill intent.
Further, if this girl had been properly trained in the use of firearms, we'd less likely have any injured survivors to talk about.
My proposal aims to stop more negligence and mishandling and accidents as opposed to criminal acts of violence.
Teaching gun owners who just went out and bought a gun, but really have no idea how to safely handle them, store them, transport them, clean them, and clear them.
Helping to teach new/first time gun owners how to keep them from falling into the hands of criminals (which will reduce some but not all violent criminal acts, because a criminal that get their hands on them, can't misuse them.)
Helping to teach new/first time gun owners how to keep them from getting into their kids hands so another 4 year old doesn't have to die.
If the girl had been educated, she never brings it to school in the first place because she would have known better. Something tells me this girl didn't have a clue about what she had in her backpack. You remove curiosity by teaching kids at an early age. That reduces mishandling, negligence and accidents.
GilpinGuy
02-05-2018, 03:51
Something tells me this girl didn't have a clue about what she had in her backpack.
Do you seriously think this person had no clue what she had in her backpack? She just picked up a random item one morning before school and tossed it her backpack. Then she dropped it and it went off several times. Please
....
Your proposal, from what I've read so far, aims to restrict gun rights .
GilpinGuy
02-05-2018, 04:53
I'm all about educating new firearm owners on safe handling, etc. This 12 yo was beyond that - she wasn't a firearms owner to begin with, she's 12 yo.
Every 12 yo on earth knows what a gun does. It's not a mysterious, unknown object. Is it a taboo thing that shall not be touched? Maybe. It depends on the parents. Not my kids.
"Helping" and "making" people be resposible are very different things.
Great-Kazoo
02-05-2018, 08:43
If the girl had been educated, she never brings it to school in the first place because she would have known better. Something tells me this girl didn't have a clue about what she had in her backpack. You remove curiosity by teaching kids at an early age. That reduces mishandling, negligence and accidents.
Oh she had a clue.
Something tells me (again) you have no clue about the demographics and lifestyle of this area. Gun Safety is not priority #1 for those who reside in areas where gangs and crime are higher than the GDP of L.A.
As for kids her age being educated enough to know better. Kids her age are probably (across the board) on their second if not more sexual partner. If one were to believe the information we've been handed for a decade or so regarding teenage STD's.
Should there be firearm education / Safety for teenage kids, if not younger, absolutely. UNTIL you can get every school administration on board with a return to eddie eagle style classes it will never happen.
DO NOT put the burden on gun owners when (in general) schools and parents would rather supply kids with needle exchanges than gun safety information.
Education is good, we agree on that. Making it compulsory and making gun ownership conditioned upon a certain level of education transforms a right into a privilege, and is the very definition of infringement. encourage, endorse, or even provide education, but you can't make it a requirement.
hurley842002
02-05-2018, 10:18
Education is good, we agree on that. Making it compulsory and making gun ownership conditioned upon a certain level of education transforms a right into a privilege, and is the very definition of infringement. encourage, endorse, or even provide education, but you can't make it a requirement.Like
Posts 123, 124, 125, 126...LIKE.
DenverGP
02-05-2018, 10:37
If the girl had been educated, she never brings it to school in the first place because she would have known better.
Bullshit... schools these days are zero tolerance with kids getting in trouble for toy guns, etc. There isn't a school aged kid who doesn't know that a gun (even a toy gun) isn't allowed in school.
This wasn't a pre-school kid or something... she is 12 years old... she knows what the hell a gun is, and knew that it wasn't allowed in school. And all the education in the world won't stop stupid people from doing stupid things.
My proposal aims to stop more negligence and mishandling and accidents as opposed to criminal acts of violence.
Teaching gun owners who just went out and bought a gun, but really have no idea how to safely handle them, store them, transport them, clean them, and clear them.
Helping to teach new/first time gun owners how to keep them from falling into the hands of criminals (which will reduce some but not all violent criminal acts, because a criminal that get their hands on them, can't misuse them.)
Helping to teach new/first time gun owners how to keep them from getting into their kids hands so another 4 year old doesn't have to die.
If the girl had been educated, she never brings it to school in the first place because she would have known better. Something tells me this girl didn't have a clue about what she had in her backpack. You remove curiosity by teaching kids at an early age. That reduces mishandling, negligence and accidents.
Oh. Sure, but changing laws for something with as rare an occurance as accidental shootings is more predadtory than helpfil.
Man this thread reminds me of me several years ago. I'd taken the red pill but still didn't understand very much (yeah I can hear you all saying "you still don't!!") and came on here and other gun forums posting what I thought at the time were good ideas. Other members quickly informed me of the error of my ways, and while their arguments were sometimes more hostile than I would have preferred, there were enough well-reasoned arguments that expanded my understanding and led me to (along with further reading) change my way of thinking. It was a rough indoctrination but I'm grateful to people who handed me my a$$ intelligently (including several in this thread) because they have contributed to my critical thinking in general.
Man this thread reminds me of me several years ago. I'd taken the red pill but still didn't understand very much (yeah I can hear you all saying "you still don't!!") and came on here and other gun forums posting what I thought at the time were good ideas. Other members quickly informed me of the error of my ways, and while their arguments were sometimes more hostile than I would have preferred, there were enough well-reasoned arguments that expanded my understanding and led me to (along with further reading) change my way of thinking. It was a rough indoctrination but I'm grateful to people who handed me my a$$ intelligently (including several in this thread) because they have contributed to my critical thinking in general.
That's why I enjoy this forum so much. There are a number of perspectives and lines of thought.
That's why I enjoy this forum so much. There are a number of perspectives and lines of thought.
Amen.
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