View Full Version : New super capacitor tech on the way
I thought this article was pretty exciting and wanted to share.
A fluke breakthrough could be the missing link for an electric car age
A fluke breakthrough could be the missing link for an electric car age
http://www.wired.co.uk/article/superdielectrics-supercapacitor-electric-car-battery
Superdielectrics Ltd has developed a supercapacitor material that can store "remarkable amounts of electricity, far beyond what we've seen before," according to its CEO Jim Heathcote. It's cheap to produce, uses no rare elements, and because it's mostly water, it can't catch on fire like traditional batteries. The discovery happened almost by accident, says Highgate, who is now director of research at the company.
Highgate remembers scribbling some rough figures on the back of an envelope. "I did the calculation and I thought, 'Bloody hell, that's ridiculous,'" he recalls. "[The capacitance] was 100 times what it ought to have been for a little thing a square centimetre. I thought I'd made a mistake."
They had stumbled on a material with dielectric properties between 1,000 and 10,000 times greater than existing conductors. Over the last 14 months Superdielectrics has been working with researchers at the universities of Bristol and Surrey to determine whether their polymers work in real world conditions. They released their results this week.
The scientists have created small devices that can power a fan or an LED for a few minutes, and claim that with further work the material could eventually reach energy densities of up to 180 watt-hours per kilogram, compared to 10 Whr/kg for the best currently available supercapacitors.
Definitely written for a British audience.
"When everyone puts on the kettle after dinner, that sudden spike in demand has to come from somewhere," says Cooper.
There are some potential hurdles to overcome. Although the material is competitive with batteries on weight, Cooper points out that size will also matter if they're going to be used within vehicles. This hasn't been researched yet, but Highgate estimates the volume of a supercapacitor made using this technology would be about 30 per cent greater than an equivalent battery.
This and leakage will be a big hurdle for electric cars. Vehicles get in accidents. The ability of a super capacitor to rapidly discharge the stored energy could also be amazingly dangerous.
While the article is about cars, I like thinking about things like hand tools. An impact driver that drives 3x as many screws and only takes a minute to charge? Yes, please. I made up those figures.
It reminded me of this video where a guy uses solar panels to charge super capacitors to run a saw.
https://youtu.be/YMKojcYP7QQ
The electricity still has to be generated, so really no good reason to store it yet, even if you can store more.
Oops, that was the build video. Here is the one of him using the saw.
https://youtu.be/eJ1OztoGprU
The electricity still has to be generated, so really no good reason to store it yet, even if you can store more.
One thing the article talks about is use with charging stations where it can fill capacitors at lower electricity rates during off peak hours, store the electricity, then quickly charge vehicles during peak hours.
BushMasterBoy
03-01-2018, 11:54
When they get it really perfected, we can have a hand held laser weapon. It won't kill the attacker, just permanently blind him. My futures so bright, I gotta wear shades...
You can already do that with the laser out of a Blu-ray player. Let me look for the video real quick.
Here is a gun: https://youtu.be/xfj1n8vPWCE
And here is a more powerful version setting stuff on fire. My eyes hurt just watching this video.
https://youtu.be/iVrJUbeuG44
I always wondered if something like this could be an arsonist's best friend, but with how bright that shotgun is, I don't think it'd be quite as discrete as a criminal would prefer. Make it safer to light fireworks though.
When they get it really perfected, we can have a hand held laser weapon. It won't kill the attacker, just permanently blind him. My futures so bright, I gotta wear shades...
I wear my sunglasses at night
So I can so I can
Keep track of the visions in my eyes...
When they get it really perfected, we can have a hand held laser weapon. It won't kill the attacker, just permanently blind him. My futures so bright, I gotta wear shades...
Unless you're a Storm Trooper, then you can't hit shit anyway.
When will we get a real light saber? That would be cool. Especially for getting into bank vaults.
CoGirl303
03-02-2018, 05:48
The electrical vehicle technology is coming along at an amazing rate.
https://www.vox.com/2017/11/16/16665266/tesla-electric-truck-announced-self-driving-price
The new Tesla semi-truck (ugly as it may be), has a range of 536 miles and requires only a 30 minute charge to add an additional 400 miles of range.
So I could drive from Denver to Little America, WY (330-350 miles give or take), stop and plug my truck in and take a 30 minute nap for my federally mandated break and then wake up and drive another 400 miles if I needed to. This is the key to electric vehicle technology in the trucking industry. Critics were saying only 536 miles wont get it done, when you can go 700 miles in a day at 65 mph on an 11 hour driving clock, but with the ability to add 400 miles of range on a 30 minute charge...this gives the industry the answer it has been looking for.
It accelerates to 60 mph in 5.x seconds when bobtailing (no trailer) and can hit 60 mph in 20 seconds when fully loaded at 80,000. Even more amazing, it will pull a 5% grade (Near Vail/Eisenhower steepness) in the mountains at 65 mph w/ 80,000 lbs of freight. My Freightliner only pulls those grades at 40-45 mph @ 65,000 lbs.
It has a feature where if the trailer starts to jack knife, it applies torque to certain wheels and takes it away from others to prevent it from jack knifing.
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The article states that this could lead to capacitors with a capacity of 180 watt hours/kg.
Big whoop. The 18650 lithium ion cells used in the Tesla Model S and X are already at a capacity of 250 watt hours/kg. The new cells used in the Tesla Model 3 are said to have even higher energy density than those, though I can't find a spec on it right now.
Furthermore the Tesla power packs come in at a $100/kg, which is pretty much the cheapest in the world at that density.
250 watt hours is pretty impressive, and from what I understand Tesla stuff charges pretty quickly already. This article seems to be insinuating that super capacitors charger much quicker than batteries, but now I wonder what the difference in charge times vs capacity between the best super capacitors and the best batteries.
The upside is that capacitors will charge faster and they don't wear out as quickly. They also don't catch on fire when exposed to air.
My understanding is that ultracapacitors charge quite quickly, so in theory, they would be a good choice for electric cars because charge times would be similar to filling up a car with gas.
That said, as I understand it, Tesla owners have two ways of charging:
- At home, charging the car overnight on lower voltage, which is more than adequate to cover daily driving to and from work, errands, etc. This means you basically never have to stop to "fill 'er up."
- Using the Tesla Supercharger network, which uses much higher voltages, and can add a couple of hundred miles of range in about 30 minutes. This is something that you would generally only use when taking a long distance road trip, and is still one of the main places where ICE-powered cars still have an advantage. For reference, check out Alex Roy's writeups on duplicating the Cannonball Run routes with Tesla automobiles.
I have yet to see a Tesla with out of state plates. On my last trip to the Olympic Peninsula of WA, I only saw 1 Tesla on the highway and it was on I-90 as it crosses the Columbia River/Wanapum Lake. The US is a damn big place, and if I spend a lot on a vehicle, I want to be able to enjoy it on long trips. There was a Tesla Supercharger station in Sequim, WA, but I didn't see a single vehicle using it.
One also has to remember that the Li-Ion batteries in an electric car like a Tesla have a very narrow temperature band at which they have their full rated capacity, around 70 degrees. Electric vehicles have a tough time in winter as the cold temps reduce battery capacity at a time when the occupants in the vehicle and glass surfaces need heat.
If you're going somewhere where there is a charging station, it likely isn't located at your intended destination. You have to go out of your way to get to the charger and either have to wait for a quick charge or find transportation between your vehicle and your intended destination.
Gasoline has about 100 times the energy per volume as a Li-Ion battery. It's also abundantly available and your on-board storage (fuel tank) will typically last the life of the vehicle. In the winter, heat is scavenged from the combustion process and doesn't create extra load on the system.
CoGirl303
03-02-2018, 12:57
I have yet to see a Tesla with out of state plates. On my last trip to the Olympic Peninsula of WA, I only saw 1 Tesla on the highway and it was on I-90 as it crosses the Columbia River/Wanapum Lake. The US is a damn big place, and if I spend a lot on a vehicle, I want to be able to enjoy it on long trips. There was a Tesla Supercharger station in Sequim, WA, but I didn't see a single vehicle using it.
One also has to remember that the Li-Ion batteries in an electric car like a Tesla have a very narrow temperature band at which they have their full rated capacity, around 70 degrees. Electric vehicles have a tough time in winter as the cold temps reduce battery capacity at a time when the occupants in the vehicle and glass surfaces need heat.
If you're going somewhere where there is a charging station, it likely isn't located at your intended destination. You have to go out of your way to get to the charger and either have to wait for a quick charge or find transportation between your vehicle and your intended destination.
Gasoline has about 100 times the energy per volume as a Li-Ion battery. It's also abundantly available and your on-board storage (fuel tank) will typically last the life of the vehicle. In the winter, heat is scavenged from the combustion process and doesn't create extra load on the system.
Once Solar Roadways gets past the testing trials phase and they begin mass production, you wont need charging stations because a simple wireless adapter installed in the car will charge it while it's motion.
http://www.solarroadways.com/
All light poles, stop lights, stop signs and skyline clutter will all come down. Snowplows will become obsolete as the panels will melt the snow off, plowing, sanding and salting roads will become a thing of the past, potholes and chain laws will become extinct.
The roads even illuminate when animals are crossing and alert drivers with an illuminated message on the road before they get to the animal.
traffic control and speed signs are illuminated w/ messages on the roads and at intersections.
Houses are powered by plugging into a panel. Cable tv and internet are powered through the panels.
Amazing things are coming! [emoji846]
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Grant H.
03-02-2018, 13:19
The article states that this could lead to capacitors with a capacity of 180 watt hours/kg.
Big whoop. The 18650 lithium ion cells used in the Tesla Model S and X are already at a capacity of 250 watt hours/kg. The new cells used in the Tesla Model 3 are said to have even higher energy density than those, though I can't find a spec on it right now.
Furthermore the Tesla power packs come in at a $100/kg, which is pretty much the cheapest in the world at that density.
LIPO (all chemistries...) can't begin to touch the life cycle of super caps. LiFePO4 is one of the best at ~2000 cycles.
Supercaps are nearly limitless, but are usually spec'd at ~1 million cycles.
Grant H.
03-02-2018, 13:22
Once Solar Roadways gets past the testing trials phase and they begin mass production, you wont need charging stations because a simple wireless adapter installed in the car will charge it while it's motion.
http://www.solarroadways.com/
All light poles, stop lights, stop signs and skyline clutter will all come down. Snowplows will become obsolete as the panels will melt the snow off, plowing, sanding and salting roads will become a thing of the past, potholes and chain laws will become extinct.
The roads even illuminate when animals are crossing and alert drivers with an illuminated message on the road before they get to the animal.
traffic control and speed signs are illuminated w/ messages on the roads and at intersections.
Houses are powered by plugging into a panel. Cable tv and internet are powered through the panels.
Amazing things are coming! [emoji846]
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
You have very high hopes for a very flawed idea/product that hasn't gone anywhere in nearly 10 years.
I saw a Tesla charging station in Limon a few weeks ago.
2221 6th St, Limon, CO 80828
I read an article about the charging stations and I thought more were being installed at some ridiculous rate like 100 a month, even though I've never seen one.
You have very high hopes for a very flawed idea/product that hasn't gone anywhere in nearly 10 years.
You are too kind Grant. :)
Even working tangentially and directly in the automotive and alternative fuels industries, I have lost most of the bets I have made. In 2015, I had to pay off a 20 year bet to a buddy that by 2015, half of the cars on the road in the US would be diesel/electric hybrids. We only have a small percentage of hybrids and a miniscule number of D/E hybrids even though, for at least the last 10 years, it has been the most economic system to deliver the US Consumer what we demand of transportation at a reasonable cost. In 1988, I drove a Concorde with a gas turbine engine that was getting into the 50 mpg combo range and did a standing 1/4 mile in 11 seconds. Open combustion was deemed "undesirable" but man did I want that car.
We'll convert to metric before we have solar roadways and get rid of overhead power lines.
With all this futuristic talk along with the focus on super or ultra capacitors, I've decided that I will hold out for the flux capacitor model.
To infinity and beyond!
Grant H.
03-02-2018, 13:53
You are too kind Grant. :)
Even working tangentially and directly in the automotive and alternative fuels industries, I have lost most of the bets I have made. In 2015, I had to pay off a 20 year bet to a buddy that by 2015, half of the cars on the road in the US would be diesel/electric hybrids. We only have a small percentage of hybrids and a miniscule number of D/E hybrids even though, for at least the last 10 years, it has been the most economic system to deliver the US Consumer what we demand of transportation at a reasonable cost. In 1988, I drove a Concorde with a gas turbine engine that was getting into the 50 mpg combo range and did a standing 1/4 mile in 11 seconds. Open combustion was deemed "undesirable" but man did I want that car.
LOL. I try.
The solar roads thing is just bad implementation of solar technology, period...
The single easiest thing to pick on, that most don't think about, is that roads are always dirty. The efficiency loss that occurs from dirty PV panels is noticeable, and then you consider that not only will it be dirty, but it's also covered by "hard-shade" for a significant portion of the day (you know, cars and trucks), and now all you are left with is a REALLY expensive, horribly inefficient, solar solution that makes roads unnecessarily more difficult/expensive to build and maintain...
Grant H.
03-02-2018, 13:55
If someone wants to read WAY MORE detail about solar losses due to hard/soft shade, here is a good link...
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1364032116000745
It'd also be a good substitute for ambien.
The solar roofing materials are pretty interesting to read about. When you have folks spending 20K to 50K on new roofing systems, getting close to cost effective.
With my Father working at SERI/NREL for several years and designing off-grids energy conversion systems for large homes, I try to keep up on the technology. The house I helped my Dad build as a teenager had all electric heat with solar. Built the roof at a 55 degree angle with 21 panels. The electric heater almost never turned on and we heated a pool in the summer. When they sold it, the new owners did not understand it, tore out the panels and paid to get gas run to the house, plus gas furnaces to a tune of $40k. Their heating costs doubled.
We'll convert to metric before we have solar roadways and get rid of overhead power lines.This will probably come after the coming ice age they taught us about in grade school right along with the coming conversion to metric.
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BushMasterBoy
03-02-2018, 17:08
Capacitance is measured in Farads. A 1 Farad capacitor of the electrolytic/ aluminum construction is the size of a railway box car. I wish these tech stories were more tecknickel.
Grant H.
03-02-2018, 17:48
Capacitance is measured in Farads. A 1 Farad capacitor of the electrolytic/ aluminum construction is the size of a railway box car. I wish these tech stories were more tecknickel.
Um, I think you are operating on some outdated/incorrect information...
This is a 3000 Farad capacitor bank that I built.
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4268/34372078840_48eafa8960_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/UnkTwY)0319171021 (https://flic.kr/p/UnkTwY) by ARNEWB (https://www.flickr.com/photos/61071044@N08/), on Flickr
BushMasterBoy
03-02-2018, 19:28
Wow, they definitely have updated capacitors! Solid state devices integrated into the construction ? I see the discrete components on the top of the capacitor. I guess Moore's law applies to components too.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moore%27s_law
What can you run off those capacitors, and how long does it take to charge them?
Grant H.
03-02-2018, 20:19
Wow, they definitely have updated capacitors! Solid state devices integrated into the construction ? I see the discrete components on the top of the capacitor. I guess Moore's law applies to components too.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moore%27s_law
Yep, Moore's law has been true for quite a while. However, if current processors are an indication, that is going to have to change... https://www.technologyreview.com/s/601102/intel-puts-the-brakes-on-moores-law/
Those are actually inexpensive protection boards that I added to the top of the basic 2 pin super caps.
But yes, supercaps have opened an entirely different world. Many of the large IT UPS's that I have worked around are now built using supercaps, due to their ability to cycle up to ~1 million times (fully charged to fully discharged and back to fully charged). Instead of having to be serviced every 1-3 years, depending on the company policies, they can be left alone for a LONG time. Even if they get completely drained, when the power comes back on, they charge again.
What can you run off those capacitors, and how long does it take to charge them?
That bank actually lives in my GSXR1000 now. I got tired of having MC batteries die, so I built one that I can always recharge, and as long as I start the bike once a week, it doesn't go dead.
I can have the pack charged enough to start the grumpy bike started in 20 minutes.
If you build something like this, be aware that when they are completely dead, they look like a dead short to a battery charger. You need a properly rated resistor inline on the positive line to prevent the charger from self protecting.
Also be aware, these things dump current at an extremely high rate. Don't let them short out.
Grant H.
03-02-2018, 20:21
What can you run off those capacitors, and how long does it take to charge them?
I'll work on doing a write up of my solar/supercap setup that provides 24/7 power for my fiber converter, router, switch, and wap.
Yep, Moore's law has been true for quite a while. However, if current processors are an indication, that is going to have to change... https://www.technologyreview.com/s/601102/intel-puts-the-brakes-on-moores-law/
Those are actually inexpensive protection boards that I added to the top of the basic 2 pin super caps.
But yes, supercaps have opened an entirely different world. Many of the large IT UPS's that I have worked around are now built using supercaps, due to their ability to cycle up to ~1 million times (fully charged to fully discharged and back to fully charged). Instead of having to be serviced every 1-3 years, depending on the company policies, they can be left alone for a LONG time. Even if they get completely drained, when the power comes back on, they charge again.
That bank actually lives in my GSXR1000 now. I got tired of having MC batteries die, so I built one that I can always recharge, and as long as I start the bike once a week, it doesn't go dead.
I can have the pack charged enough to start the grumpy bike started in 20 minutes.
If you build something like this, be aware that when they are completely dead, they look like a dead short to a battery charger. You need a properly rated resistor inline on the positive line to prevent the charger from self protecting.
Also be aware, these things dump current at an extremely high rate. Don't let them short out.
All the new gen RAID adapters have super caps instead of cache batteries, and many SAN arrays use super caps in their internal "battery" backup units, instead of actual batteries for fire hose cache dumps if external power fails.
BushMasterBoy
03-03-2018, 00:22
The big limitation to the "Super Capacitor" is the voltage handling capability. Anything over 3 volts will permanently destroy it. The dielectric is a carbon based structure. It would be interesting to cut one open and see the internal engineering.
I have yet to see a Tesla with out of state plates. On my last trip to the Olympic Peninsula of WA, I only saw 1 Tesla on the highway and it was on I-90 as it crosses the Columbia River/Wanapum Lake. The US is a damn big place, and if I spend a lot on a vehicle, I want to be able to enjoy it on long trips. There was a Tesla Supercharger station in Sequim, WA, but I didn't see a single vehicle using it.
I see about two-three Teslas per week, not counting the one that shows up in the parking lot at work. Much fewer LEAFs and Bolts.
One also has to remember that the Li-Ion batteries in an electric car like a Tesla have a very narrow temperature band at which they have their full rated capacity, around 70 degrees. Electric vehicles have a tough time in winter as the cold temps reduce battery capacity at a time when the occupants in the vehicle and glass surfaces need heat.
ICE vehicles also lose efficiency and have problems starting in the cold. As I understand it, the Teslas thermal management systems can and do somewhat mitigate this. More info including real-world drive information (from an admittedly biased source) here: https://electrek.co/2018/01/02/electric-car-range-affected-extreme-cold-they-start/
If you're going somewhere where there is a charging station, it likely isn't located at your intended destination. You have to go out of your way to get to the charger and either have to wait for a quick charge or find transportation between your vehicle and your intended destination.
This is becoming less of an issue as Tesla has continued to roll out their super charger network. You can see a map of the network here:
https://www.tesla.com/supercharger
Gasoline has about 100 times the energy per volume as a Li-Ion battery. It's also abundantly available and your on-board storage (fuel tank) will typically last the life of the vehicle. In the winter, heat is scavenged from the combustion process and doesn't create extra load on the system.
Too bad most internal combustion engines only manage thermal efficiencies in the 20% range, wasting the rest of all of that energy dense fuel as waste heat.
For the record:
The solar roadway is a stupid idea.
For the record:
The solar roadway is a stupid idea.
What? Driving on glass isn't the best idea ever?
Zundfolge
03-12-2018, 19:28
For the record:
The solar roadway is a stupid idea.
One lesbian in a Subaru Forester with studded tires still on her car in August would prove this to be true.
Saw this today and LOL.
https://www.ar-15.co/attachment.php?attachmentid=73825&d=1520904652
One lesbian in a Subaru Forester with studded tires still on her car in August would prove this to be true.
They'd be better off covering the median of all highways with solar panels than trying to build the solar roadway, and even that's a fairly dumb idea.
A solar canopy would work, but then you'd always be able to see street lights without sun glare and you'd need less snow plowing.
Circuits
03-13-2018, 10:15
A solar canopy would work, but then you'd always be able to see street lights without sun glare and you'd need less snow plowing.
But you'd have to plow the panels, instead, to keep the energy generation at peak levels.
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