Suppressor legality questions

[GreenScoutII]

A thread yesterday got me thinking...

Ok. First, let me state clearly, in plain english: I AM NOT GOING TO DO ANYTHING ILLEGAL!!! I WILL NOT BUILD OR EXPERIMENT WITH ANY PART OF THIS UNLESS I CAN DO SO LEGALLY!!! I WILL NOT VIOLATE ANY LAW! I HAVE NO SUPRESSORS.. I HAVE NO SUPPRESSOR PARTS. I HAVE NO PROTOTYPE, NOTHING, NADA, ZERO, ZILCH.... PRISION=BAD!!!!

That said, I understand the process of purchasing a suppressor from a manufacturer/dealer legally. In this scenario a guy goes to an NFA dealer, selects what he wants to buy, pays for it. Then he takes the paperwork(ATF Form 4?) to his local Sherrif/Chief of Police, etc. for signature. He then gets fingerprinted. A guy would then send the signed form 4, the finger print card, a money order for $200, and the passport photos to the ATF. The ATF does a thorough background check, and then sends the approved form 4 and tax stamp back to the guy. Then AND ONLY THEN, can a guy take possession of his supressor. Cool...

What I'm wondering is, if a guy wanted to manufacture his own suppressor, for his own use:

What is the correct legal procedure for doing so? Also, does anybody know how the Pueblo county sherriff feels about NFA items? Does he sign or refuse?

Thanks for your advice...

[Circuits]

You can use a check instead of a money order, and most folks do, since it gives you the cancelled check as proof of payment.

The approved form goes to the SELLER, not the buyer, and the seller will contact you to come pick up your item.

For a Form 1, everything's identical to the Form 4 process, except:

1) you make up the serial number yourself
2) the form comes back to YOU approved
3) at that time you can being to make the suppressor (or other NFA goodie).

No clue on the pueblo sheriff, sorry.

[MuzzleFlash]

A thread yesterday got me thinking...

Ok. First, let me state clearly, in plain english: I AM NOT GOING TO DO ANYTHING ILLEGAL!!! I WILL NOT BUILD OR EXPERIMENT WITH ANY PART OF THIS UNLESS I CAN DO LEGALLY!!!

That said, I understand the process of purchasing a suppressor from a manufacturer/dealer legally. In this scenario a guy goes to an NFA dealer, selects what he wants to buy, pays for it. Then he takes the paperwork(ATF Form 4?) to his local Sherrif/Chief of Police, etc. for signature. He then gets fingerprinted. A guy would then send the signed form 4, the finger print card, a money order for $200, and the passport photos to the ATF. The ATF does a thorough background check, and then sends the approved form 4 and tax stamp back to the guy. No they send it back to the dealer who gives it to the guy when the suppressor is transfered. Then AND ONLY THEN, can a guy take possession of his supressor. Cool...

What I'm wondering is, if a guy wanted to manufacture his own suppressor, for his own use:

What is the correct legal procedure for doing so? You must file an ATF Form 1 along with enough information to describe the project. The prints, CLEO sign-off, $200 tax, etc. are unchanged. Once the approval is received, you can commence to making the can. You have to comply with the marking requirements. You should join SilencerTalk.com. You'll find a wealth of info on making your own cans there along with amateurs sharing theory, etc. Also, does anybody know how the Pueblo county sherriff feels about NFA items? Does he sign or refuse? Why not call and ask before starting the process? He is a Democrat so you're half screwed already. You can also try to get approvals from a criminal court judge or district attorney. ATF will accept these in lieu of a CLEO sign-off.

Thanks for your advice...

[DOC]

Learning about them requires no fee. Muffler designer for cars and suppressors makers should talk.

[Irving]

If you use some sort of autocad program, you can start designing now, as long as you aren't using any physical materials. I strongly second silencertalk.com.

I'd personally look into just going to trust route. Why even bother dealing with the sheriff or attorneys?

[GreenScoutII]

Circuits:
Muzzleflash:
Doc:

Thank you very much for the information. I really appreciate it!

I should add I didn't mean to come off as a smart ass, or that I was being hostile. After reading my initial post, I could see how a guy could have gotten the wrong idea after looking at all of my all caps and bold print. I didn't mean any offense, its just that, after looking at other boards on the internet, there always seems to be some guy who says "Hey, I'm gonna get me a soda bottle an' some duck tape an' make me a silincer!"...Predictably, he gets clobbered by the guys on the board about legal issues, prision time, his own stupidity, etc. I just wanted to let everybody know I'm not that guy...

I have had an idea floating around in my head for a few years for a suppressor which operates a little differently than any others I've seen or read about. I don't know if it would work or not, I just wanted to find out how I could build it legally. The down side is, if it doesn't work, I've just paid $200+ dollars to discover it doesn't work...

Thanks again you guys....

[MuzzleFlash]

I certainly didn't take your post as cocky. Most of the members at silencertalk are good eggs. There are more than a few AAC fanboys there to be sure, given that Ron Silvers, the admin is an AAC researcher. If you can take that with the requisite grain of salt, it's a good place to learn.

Without getting too deep into the theory, remember that:

1. Silencers are semi-chaotic systems and very hard to model accurately
2. The main idea is to cool and contain gas as long as possible while not screwing up the point of impact
3. As pressurized systems, safety is paramount. Be careful
4. ATF has recently ruled that the outside tube is the key part and cannot be significantly modified by FFL/SOTs beyond minor changes to repair stripped threads, etc. If you split your tube, you can't replace it and neither can a class 2 SOT.
5. Baffles are considered silencers too although they look the other way while you make the can. After the can is operational, you can't destroy the baffles and replace them legally. However, a SOT apparently can do this.
6. Size and weight considerations eventually become just as important as dB reduction.
7. Fluid modeling is touted by some, but my friend who has worked for two of the top drawer can makers claims such models are of minimal use. He holds several patents on suppressor technology including one on a 50 BMG can. I trust his opinions.
8. Did I mention that silencers are semi-chaotic systems?

[Irving]

It's Robert Silvers. ;)

[GreenScoutII]

Thank you too Sturtle! I logged on at silencertalk. Good info so far.

[sniper7]

Fill out your paperwork, get it approved, then take a 2 liter soda bottle and bam you are done!!!! J/K

I think if you are a decently skilled machinist you would be fine. do lots of research and find out the newest baffle designs and work from that. you can find out a lot about the weight and dimensions by just looking at the current cans available. they usually also list the materials.
remember to make your threads very strong, perfectly concentric to the threading on your barrel(s), and make sure the hole you will be shooting through is large enough for the bullet! baffle strikes=not good.

If you end up going through with this, post some pictures of the progress and the final can and a good youtube video!

good luck!

[sniper7]

Thank you too Sturtle! I logged on at silencertalk. Good info so far.


remember that site will mostly be AAC guys/groupies

there are lots of manufacturers out there that make high quality products. AAC is top notch, but I am still very very annoyed they raised the prices on their cans, and are no longer including the quick detach with it (have to buy it separate now...)

[Irving]

The guys from SWR hang out on Silencertalk as well. I don't think Silencertalk is as full of fanboys as people assume. If you don't like AAC and go over there, then of course it will look like that because that is what you were expecting. Lot's of good info on there.

I guess all I'm saying is don't think you'll get brain washed over there or anything because you won't. It is just like this site and many others.

[RYAN50BMG]

I would think about buying one for a gun you already own for two reasons. One, to familiarize yourself with the NFA forms process with the help of a dealer, you can deal with the ones on this board with confidence, and two; ( this is just my opinion) folks buy a can with unrealistic expectations and then are pissed off when it's not hollywood quiet like they thought it would be. See what one will do before the hassle of building one. companies like Gemtech, AAC, and others have put serious time and money into developing thier products, so it will be hard (if not impossible) to outdo their performance.

[WinterBoarder]

I'd personally look into just going to trust route. Why even bother dealing with the sheriff or attorneys?

+1 Trust is a much better route IMHO. Not just because of not having to deal with the local sheriff, but if you're married or have other family that you want to be able to legally access your NFA toys without you being present, this is possible with the trust.