Afghanistan

[omio]

I just wanted to hear other opinions on the war. This month saw the most KIA in the whole war what do you think should be done? My opinion is to get out as fast as we came in.

[SA Friday]

This is a war we cannot afford to lose, period. The world wide problems with Al Quada were horrorific before the war. They are still bad, but not as bad as they were before. I've seen the classified info on this, trust me.

If you think pulling stakes is an option, then you better prepare yourself. As it stands, the Taliban WOULD take back that country. IF that happens, it becomes an even stronger haven for terrorist support and training, moreso than it was before. The currently shattered Al Quada infastructure we have will reform and instead of seeing consolidated unsupported terrorist franchises you will once again have direct operational support from very experienced Al Quada upper encheleon in terrorst attacks. 9/11 is the result from this type of operational experience involved in terrorist attacks. The current rounds of bombing at hotels in the Jakarta are examples of terrorist attacks without operationally experienced planners involved.

IMO, leaving is not an option unless you want waves of loyal trained mujhadeen attemping and gaining access to the US. According to the Koran, mujhadeen are honor-bound to defend the homelands at all cost. We leave, that necessesity disappears and they are free to attack their enemies in their homeland. You have to understand, Muslims of certain faiths fanatically believe the Koran it truth verbatum. They follow the Koran like a playbook and DO NOT deviate. This makes them impossible to reason with, it also makes them semi-predictable in thier big picture actions and reactions.

The Koran, as the Bible, has an armaggedon scenario in it. I'm not well versed in Koran study, but have some training in this area. As I understand it, the end-of-days scenario in the Koran involved a great battle with the infidels in their homeland. According to indicators in the Koran this battle takes place in (wait for it...) Iraq. The mujhadeen lose the great battle and the infidels go back to their homeland (homeland location is undefined, BTW). The mujhadeen follow the infidels to their homeland and attack and defeat them there. This battle is led by the Mahdi, the incarnation of Mohammad. The Koran describes the Mahdi, and Osama Bin Laden (OBL) had portrayed this image since his rise in Al Quada, both physically and philosophically. Also, the Koran describes what it calls the 100 year Mahdi's; faith rejuvenators that come every 100 years to strengthen the Islamic faith amongst it followers and non followers. Most Islamic scholars agree the last 100 year Mahdi was about 100 years ago. So, either way OBL wins by portraying himself as the Mahdi.

Now, if some dumb ass retired AFOSI Special Agent knows this, you think the Bush Admin didn't have the same access to the info? I'm thinking they did long before they launched this dually located war. Remember, the mujhadeen are honor bound to defend. Their core beliefs are to defend at all costs before they can attack outside their homelands. This is the philosophy that dictates the Hambali Sunni's and Whabbi/Salif sects of the Muslim faith; The Koran is ultimate truth to be followed verbatum.

So, where do you want Islamic holy warriors fighting?

This is all open source info, none of it is classified. I've touched on the highlights of the situation. There is much more, even more than I understand. You won't see any of it in the media either. It's very confusing for much of the main stream public, and the media can't package it for ratings. That's why you don't hear about it. I also believe the Bush Admin didn't try to explain this strategy to the American public because airing stragety defeats the purpose of planning it in the first place.

[Hoser]

I have been there and pulling out is not an option.

The cost of the war is high, but if we pull out it will be higher. And you will feel it here at home.

[SA Friday]

I have been there and pulling out is not an option.

The cost of the war is high, but if we pull out it will be higher. And you will feel it here at home.
This is the laconic version of what I said.[Coffee]

[omio]

I've been there I actually liked it there for some odd reason but all I can tell you from what i saw with my own eyes is that we lost this war already. From higher shit is rolling down hill quick and morale is low all i could think about was "The art of war" fighting over there and the disadvantages we had. Besides enemy casualties greatly exaggerated shit most of the time we didn't know what we were shooting at. We would call in all sorts of support from cobras to 2000 pounders and they still kept shooting. If you spend the kind of money like we did to take a measly little village we won't have enough for the whole country period. And i would say more than 50% is controlled by the Taliban. When you take in to account what sun tzu said you can see what i mean.

[omio]

Btw I'd love to fight some islamic warriors over here in the Rockies. Shit my own weapons, tactics, no shaving and i don't have to take shit from a dumb ass LT or Ssgt [ROFL1]

[Hoser]

Btw I'd love to fight some islamic warriors over here in the Rockies.

I can not imagine anything worse.

[GhostRider]

I can not imagine anything worse.


+1000 I couldn't agree more Hoser

[GreenScoutII]

Well, I've never been there. I don't feel that I'm really entitled to have an opinion, except to say Thank you to all of our servicemen/women who have fought over there to protect the rest of us from anything like 9/11/01 from happening again..

Thank you, all of you...

[SA Friday]

I can not imagine anything worse.
Truth.

[sniper7]

I've never been there and don't want to unless I am strapped into an A-10 providing cover fire for the troops.

I would much rather everyone pull out, fly 3 B1 bombers in this coming 4th of July and finish the war.

[Bailey Guns]

Now, if some dumb ass retired AFOSI Special Agent knows this, you think the Bush Admin didn't have the same access to the info? I'm thinking they did long before they launched this dually located war. Remember, the mujhadeen are honor bound to defend. Their core beliefs are to defend at all costs before they can attack outside their homelands. This is the philosophy that dictates the Hambali Sunni's and Whabbi/Salif sects of the Muslim faith; The Koran is ultimate truth to be followed verbatum.

So, where do you want Islamic holy warriors fighting?

Exactly. Personally, I believe this is one of the central tenets for invading Iraq. Aside from the fact Hussein was a dictatorial douchebag, Iraq is a relatively easy country (when compared to lots of other places like, oh, Afghanistan) in which to conduct a war. The idea that a war against the Islamic homeland will attract defenders from far and wide makes sense. Get them into Iraq and kill them. We've been extremely successful in doing that up until this year. The Patraeus strategy of winning over the hearts and minds of the locals worked brilliantly after he was given the resources to do it. It didn't take long, once we adopted a strategy of actually showing the locals we were the good guys and concerned about them, to win them over and begin defeating al Queda at every turn. Of course, it didn't hurt that the al Queda shitheads continued to murder, plunder, indescriminantly kill non-combatants, blow up mosques, etc... But that was the idea.

The same can be accomplished in Afghanistan...if we had leadership in DC that would make the decision to allow it to happen. It's going to take more resources and commitment than has thus far been shown to make that happen. Barack Obama knows nothing about warfare, has surrounded himself with people who know nothing about warfare, and is fundamentally opposed to what the US is trying to accomplish "over there". Gen MacChrystal has tried, in vain apparently, to educate and advise Obama about this very fact. Obama is a stubborn man and is too ignorant to want to take advice from the very military man he's placed in charge and from whom he's asked advice on prosecuting the war.

This presidency is a disaster. This president, if he delays much longer, will be forced to withdraw from Afghanistan which will quicken a pending disaster. All that has been won and/or gained in the area will quickly be lost.

We need more troops in Afghanistan, in significant numbers (at least the 40k MacChrystal has asked for) and we need them now. We need our president to show some backbone for a change and we need him to make a decision.."shit or get off the pot", as the old saying goes. And we need a president committed to providing our warriors with the resources, both on the ground and in the air to properly support them.

The shortsighted and illogical suggestion of leaving Afghanistan now is exactly the wrong thing to do.

If that happens, omio, you may - God forbid - get your wish. But you should realize one thing. It won't be you fighting them...it will be unarmed and helpless citizens in office buildings, children in schools, patients in hospitals and other innocents that can't protect themselves bearing the brunt of the onslaught.

[omio]

I was in iraq too... mostly fighting Sunni insurgents see I am pretty pissed at what happened there with the "Awakening" bullshit. The highers idea of awakening was giving all the fighters and their stupid fucking sheiks of fucks that where blowing us the fuck up with IEDs IRLs and RPGs around every corner and give them lots of money and more guns to patrol the streets of ramadi and just like that we "won" it makes me extremely angry that the same people that killed my brothers are our friends now some how... But i guess if it makes Americans feel safer at home I guess we did the job...

[Bailey Guns]

No need to get all defensive, omio. I'm sorry you lost a brother. I lost friends when I was in. I lost friends when I was a cop. My son is there now...5th tour. Bad shit happens in a war.

But a couple of things. You asked for the opinions of others. If you don't want the answer, don't ask the question.

Furthermore, there is no way in the world we could've accomplished anything in Iraq without the locals owning the process. Do you just think we're gonna stay over there killing people and breaking stuff forever? So we had to turn over some of the process to the very people we were fighting against at one point. I've got news for ya...that's how we eventually get out.

To the shortsighted, it seems like a raw deal. For those with the understanding of how wars are eventually won, it's a necessary process. I challenge you to provide proof of how the Petraeus strategy in Iraq, taking into account the big picture as opposed to your negative experiences, didn't work. It did and it is. Iraq is safer now than it's been in years and the standard of living for Iraqis has increased dramatically.

I'm not saying it isn't still a dangerous place. And I'm glad I didn't have to go (I fought in a different war). But it has improved.

Do you actually just think we can kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out? Or, do want the US to leave prematurely and let everything we've gained be lost just so you can fulfill some misguided romantic fantasy and "fight some islamic warriors over here in the Rockies"? Do you seriously think that's the answer?

I got news for ya...if it gets to that, a brother isn't the only person important to you that you're gonna lose.

[SA Friday]

Omio,
I have a pretty good feeling you would benefit a lot from reading this:

'The Last Hundred Yards: The NCO's Contribution to Warfare' written by H.J. Poole

It's a good book, and I read it years ago. He has written a few others after this and they all cover different aspects of warfare. I suspect you can find it in your bases library, or in one of your SNCO's bookshelfs.

[Bailey Guns]

Or, from a completely different perspective, read Michael Yon's "Moment of Truth in Iraq". Yon is a former Green Beret turned freelance journalist who's spent the better part of this decade living (and in some cases, fighting) with guys in Iraq...mostly American and British forces.

I'll be happy to loan it to you.

[Batteriesnare]

I can not imagine anything worse.

Agree 100%.

[omio]

That bit of hate wasn't towards any of you. Just really the people running the show. John poole is a very smart man i read a few of his books but not the one you suggested yet. My favorite is Dragon days those fucking chinese ill fight the damn chinese in the rockies lol. I just don't agree with the bigger picture things can be done differently sometimes what they do up there is reminding me too much of history and it will go down the same way... I'll check out that other book too looks like its pretty interesting i was thinking of being a journalist I met a few, there are some fearless bad ass journalists out there they are crazy enough to jump into a firefight without a weapon lol. I still don't know why you guys wouldn't want to fight them here... [M2][UZI][AR15]
Well i guess the same way they didn't want me fighting over there lol

[Elhuero]

people who compare afghanistan to vietnam are idiots. totally different countries, totally different wars.

however the result of this new conflict will end up the same as vietnam.

we will lose.

not because the enemy defeated us, but because we defeated ourselves.

if we are to have victory, the kid gloves need to come off. the generals need to be put it charge, politics needs to go out the window. (ie we need to exponentially increase the asskicking)

we need to stick to bush's line "we will make no distinction between the terrorists and those that harbor them".

all these things that need to happen are all the things that obama will never do. he will screw the pooch and americans will die. just like clinton (WTC 93, mogidishu) and carter (iran)

personally I'd be delighted if we can track down the general area where bin laden is then use it for a field test of the neutron bomb.

[Mista Bukit]

I have been on the ground there recently and here are a few of my observations that haven’t been mentioned here.

Karzai is corrupt??? What a surprise!!! The Middle East and Muslims have their own way of doing business. The country is run top to bottom by thugs; everybody with any power over anybody else is Tony Soprano wanting “a piece of the action”
Corrupt governments are not unusual – take a look at our own.

[roberth]

This is how it's going to be. We are going to fight this war, there is no escape, no running away. The terrorists have made their decision and we can't talk them out of it. Where we fight this war is up to us, we control the location. Terrorists like Aziz in Aurora are trying to bring it here, the stateside guys are doing a great job of finding them before they can kill a bunch of Americans.

I prefer to use professional soldiers in Afghanistan an Iraq to fight it. If we don't fight it over there, we will fight it here. I have no fantasies about my ability to live in a war zone.

I agree with Hoser, I don't want to have this fight here in Colorado or in the United States. That would be an unprecedented disaster.

Our CIC(gawd I hate saying that) is more on the side of the terrorists then on the side of my country, his preference is obvious as seen in his lack of decision on increasing troops in Afghanistan.

I cannot express in words my eternal gratitude for the good work our troops are doing around the world, specifically in Afghanistan and Iraq.

[DocMedic]

I’ve been fortunate (perhaps unfortunate?) to serve 15 month tours both in Iraq and Afghanistan. Now this alone doesn’t qualify me to say if we should stay or go, but I liked to think I’m a subject matter expert of the situation that I was in.

When stationed in Afghanistan, I spent ten months at a Forward Operation Base near Khoast, which is basically 12miles away from the Pakistan border. Being a grunt with a bunch of Band-Aids, I can tell you that I’ve seen my share of combat in the mountains of Afghanistan.

Morale is unnerving thing. I find morale is only as low as the leaders allow it to go. There have been a handful of times I remember were it rained and snowed on us, yet we still had to make movement. Was morale lowered because of this, perhaps? Hell you would have a few screws loose to even enjoy that environment under those conditions. This is where your leaders and NCO’s come in, Yea things suck they know this, but they also know the situation can become even worse if soldiers get complacent, twiddling their thumbs asking themselves what’s the point.

I found that I had to find ways to motivate myself, one such way is when we would go into a village, me and my PA would setup shop. Taking look at the sick and injured and try everything within are limits to help them. To me at least I believed this was helping our efforts in the country, the only way the Afghan people our going to accept us is if we show are selfless service to them that were not just invaders.

I think that the worst thing we have ever done (though truthfully I don’t have all the details about it) is turning the security of Afghanistan over to NATO. When I was in Iraq I remember hearing about the events that were happening while NATO was in control on CNN. And the only thing me and couple of my fellow NCO’s were thinking was NATO is unraveling everything that we has Just accomplished in the past 4 years in that country. Worst part is I understand why we had to give it over to NATO, with the lack of troops in the military, there was no way we could have a strong presence in both Iraq and Afghanistan, So to strengthen are support in Iraq, we had to pull troops from Afghanistan deployments and send them to Iraq. With no new deployments happing in Afghanistan, and troops coming back from their deployments we slowly became one of the weaker presence (at least what we were before) in the country.

SA Friday really hit it on the head. And since now I’m back in school studying this stuff from a university level in hopes to return to the military as an Officer. Its really has open my eyes how oblivious people are about what’s happening outside of the US, War or not. I find a good mix between Protesters and supporters on this university, but anytime I ask either or why they feel that way, the only thing I get quoted back is what is being letter headed in the news. The smarter ones with “agendas” will often question me on how I feel about it. Or try to corner me with a question that would only serve to their “needs” with the answer I might give. Usually I just Shrug and tell them I’m a Grunt and just look at them stupid like. But you know what, I’ll defend their rights to be ignorant, that means they can think for themselves without the threat of someone over them to tell them different.

Can we win this war? This isn’t a war that the US can afford to lose, but this isn’t a war that the US can win with “Traditional” means of War fighting either. For example the first Iraqi war, yes we won, but what end up happening, we went back. (Possibly not because of the same reasons.) We are finding that Traditional means of fighting wars do not work in the long run in this modern age.

Just my .02 cents

[omio]

The Taliban are and will always be part of Afghanistan. Bailey Guns said it best when talking about Iraq there are Taliban now in the government. This war will not be won by traditional means these pashtun people don't give three shits about our "democracy" they just want to farm their damn fields without getting blown to bits. And as long as we are over there fighting those "terrorists" we once called freedom fighters back in the 80s they wont be able to so they will resort to fighting us in the mean time. Its just one big fucked cycle and Dearborn, MI is a prime example that the fighting them over there idea doesn't work.

[PogoManiac7]

Sorry to correct you foxtrot.

The 2nd Engine for the F-35. Is merely an alternate power plant to help foster competition and lower prices between the two competing companies (Pratt&Whitney, GE). The F-35 is a single engine fighter, the 2nd engine program is just to help lower maintnance time and reduce costs.

The F-22 program is very dangerous in the long run to eliminate, however if we merely delayed the F-22 program so that immediate efforts and funds went towards building weapons to help us win the current wars (If i'm not mistaken our AC-130 fleet is very old).

We'll want those F-22's ten years down the road when the F-15's stop working.

Of course, why are we talking about saving money here? The only thing that this administration has done to cut costs is axe vital military programs.

[Graves]

Btw I'd love to fight some islamic warriors over here in the Rockies. Shit my own weapons, tactics, no shaving and i don't have to take shit from a dumb ass LT or Ssgt [ROFL1]

Eeer....fail.

[MichiganMilitia]

...we need to exponentially increase the asskicking


...all these things that need to happen are all the things that obama will never do. he will screw the pooch and americans will die. just like clinton (WTC 93, mogidishu) and carter (iran).


Yes! More asskicking please! [Tooth]

Seriously though... Obobo has no balls. Reagan had a spine of steel. Obobo is like stretch armstrong when it comes to shaking hands with our enemies.

[Pancho Villa]

Its a no-win situation, in my opinion.

Not because the war isn't winnable per se. But the war is not winnable the way we are fighting it.

There is a good principle here: a half-fight is worse than no fight. No fighting simply doesn't confront your enemies. A half-fight hastens their victory by making them look better, weakening you and making your enemies look like they have the big advantage in willpower.

No denigrations at all at those who fight over there. But in many ways their hands are tied - between "political considerations" and the ROE, they don't do what they're best at (killing bad guys) nearly as much as they should.

Now, we have beat the enemy in the field whenever its a standup fight. That is well and good. But what has our reaction to our early victories been? Our enemy, recall, is Islamism - the political implementation of the religion of Islam. While our military is peerless and has performed, if not flawlessly, as well as any human could expect it to under the restrictions it was put under, the way the political class has handled the war has been nothing short of shameful.

For all his rhetoric about winning the war, Bush's (and now Obama, only moreso) moral premise about war remains in line with much modern thinking: war is only justifiable, not on grounds of national self-interest or protecting the rights of your citizens, but if you conduct the war in such a way as to benefit the people you are making war on. So now Iraq and Afghanistan both are gigantic drains on the treasury - not mainly for military expenditures, but for what amounts to gigantic welfare programs for both countries. That American soldiers should fight and die - so that we can supply the Afghans with roads, power, education and welfare payments - is an obscenity.

We have let both countries create their own constitutions, and - surprise! - Islam is cited by both as the ultimate law, the ultimate source of the government's authority, and so forth. Explicitly Islamic parties are not only tolerated but powerful in both countries. If you look at only one part of the enemy - Al-Qaeda, the Taliban, Saddam Hussein - you can arguably say that we are moving the ball forward. But if you look at Islamism, you will see that it has taken gigantic steps forward since 2001. Al-Q is and was a terrorist organization. The Taliban and Hussein were international pariahs. But now we have handed - in the form of recognition, support, cash - Islamists a victory they could not have acheived on their own: legitimacy in the eyes of the world.

What should we do? We should man up, stop treating the middle east like one gigantic welfare state, and get down to the business of smashing Islamic governments and leaving them in ruins as a warning to anyone else who wants to try it again. Barring that, there are no good options. Staying keeps US soldiers in an un-winnable situation - not un-winnable by nature, but un-winnable because they aren't allowed to win. Leaving gives a gigantic coup to Islamic propagandists - and probably hands both countries over to the Islamic parties in their midsts.

[Hoser]

(If i'm not mistaken our AC-130 fleet is very old)

Sorry to correct you Pogo...

The latest version of the Gunship is the AC-130U. Commonly called the U-Boat. Most of them were built in the mid-late 90s.

The older Hs (30-ish years old) from the 16th SOS are still around also.