View Full Version : DOJ / ATF moves on Bump Stocks = Machine Guns
Official info at:
https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2018/03/29/2018-06292/bump-stock-type-devices
SUMMARY:
The Department of Justice (Department) proposes to amend the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives regulations to clarify that “bump fire” stocks, slide-fire devices, and devices with certain similar characteristics (bump-stock-type devices) are “machineguns” as defined by the National Firearms Act of 1934 (NFA) and the Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA), because such devices allow a shooter of a semiautomatic firearm to initiate a continuous firing cycle with a single pull of the trigger. Specifically, these devices convert an otherwise semiautomatic firearm into a machinegun by functioning as a self-acting or self-regulating mechanism that harnesses the recoil energy of the semiautomatic firearm in a manner that allows the trigger to reset and continue firing without additional physical manipulation of the trigger by the shooter. Hence, a semiautomatic firearm to which a bump-stock-type device is attached is able to produce automatic fire with a single pull of the trigger. With limited exceptions, primarily as to government agencies, the GCA makes it unlawful for any person to transfer or possess a machinegun unless it was lawfully possessed prior to the effective date of the statute. The bump-stock-type devices covered by this proposed rule were not in existence prior to the GCA's effective date, and therefore would fall within the prohibition on machineguns if this Notice of Proposed Rulemaking (NPRM) is implemented. Consequently, current possessors of these devices would be required to surrender them, destroy them, or otherwise render them permanently inoperable upon the effective date of the final rule.
SUMMARY:
..... because such devices allow a shooter of a semiautomatic firearm to initiate a continuous firing cycle with a single pull of the trigger. Specifically, these devices convert an otherwise semiautomatic firearm into a machinegun by functioning as a self-acting or self-regulating mechanism that harnesses the recoil energy of the semiautomatic firearm in a manner that allows the trigger to reset and continue firing without additional physical manipulation of the trigger by the shooter. Hence, a semiautomatic firearm to which a bump-stock-type device is attached is able to produce automatic fire with a single pull of the trigger......
Total BS
So I guess they believe that once you pull the trigger that first time, you just have to hang on and wait until you are out of ammunition to cease firing? How F'n stupid are all these people?
Consequently, current possessors of these devices would be required to surrender them, destroy them, or otherwise render them permanently inoperable upon the effective date of the final rule.
And so now, law abiding citizens are force to forfeit/destroy legally acquired personal property, with no just compensation, at the whim of the gov?
So they will change the wording of the definition of semiautomatic then, right now it's one round fired per trigger pull, and even with a bump stock the trigger is being pulled once per firing sequence so what's the new definition? What's physical manipulation then, holding a ride is manipulating it, taking it off the Saftey is manipulating it, loading it and racking it is manipulating it........this is some ground work for sure.
Circuits
03-29-2018, 10:53
Total BS
So I guess they believe that once you pull the trigger that first time, you just have to hang on and wait until you are out of ammunition to cease firing? How F'n stupid are all these people?
What DOJ believes and the truth are immaterial - the DOJ has been ordered to produce a desired outcome (banning bumpstocks) and is proposing a way to produce that outcome.
What about all the people that learned to bump fire without a bump fire stock? Or will it be unlawful to do so? And will they ban Jerry Miculek? How is the dollars and sense going to work. Seems this will set a precedent. How does something just become illegal? Is there any sanctuary states for guns, with the state just not enforcing the laws? Sorry I have so many questions, but every day the world makes less sense.
Bailey Guns
03-29-2018, 12:31
Fuckin' Sessions. He can do this bullshit with bump stocks but he can't prosecute real criminals. There are 535 congressmen and women who need to do their fucking jobs instead of letting appointed agency bureaucrats do it for them.
Shooter45
03-29-2018, 12:40
Very sad and painful to read the ATF's statement. Scary to think of what else will follow in the future because of this.
CoGirl303
03-29-2018, 12:47
Total BS
And so now, law abiding citizens are force to forfeit/destroy legally acquired personal property, with no just compensation, at the whim of the gov?
They're inviting a risk of pandora's box of Ruby Ridges to take place with this nonsense should it pass.
However it's still open for discussion because it's still in open comment status, plus Guns of America and some other 2A organizations will be filing a lawsuit to contest it when they officially rule on it and ban them.
I'd say GOA has a pretty good chance to win too based on the ATF's initial ruling in 2009 and some good science (physics) on their side. They need to attack the language of the term machine gun. That's the key. A few video demonstrations of bump firing with belt loops and wooden dowels will support the physical evidence that a bump stock is not and never has been a machine gun. A quality physicist with a PhD as an expert witness would serve them well here.
With limited exceptions, primarily as to government agencies, the GCA makes it unlawful for any person to transfer or possess a machinegun unless it was lawfully possessed prior to the effective date of the statute. The bump-stock-type devices covered by this proposed rule were not in existence prior to the GCA's effective date, and therefore would fall within the prohibition on machineguns if this Notice of Proposed Rulemaking (NPRM) is implemented.
Ummm, it was legal from 2009-Present to have them, how can they pre-date legal purchases as illegal by retroatively ruling them prohibited? [emoji849]
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Didnt the machine gun definition say "function" of the trigger and not "pull" of the trigger? And what is all that effort for pulling the forearm forward if not to make sure that the trigger is pulled everytime. This is a horrible law that infringes on the core of a right only to appease the media that calls him Hilter. When did they start giving a damn what the media thinks? They are never appeased either. So don't play their game.
Total BS
So I guess they believe that once you pull the trigger that first time, you just have to hang on and wait until you are out of ammunition to cease firing? How F'n stupid are all these people?
And so now, law abiding citizens are force to forfeit/destroy legally acquired personal property, with no just compensation, at the whim of the gov?
They aren’t stupid they know exactly that this is untrue.
The base problem is that the BATFE is allowed to interpret the law. Black letter law should be needed, with any new innovations or gray areas decided in the legislature, or the courts. They should not have the ability to legislate by administrative regulation, regardless of who is in charge or which party is in the White House.
Zundfolge
03-29-2018, 14:20
Its dumb and I don't like it, but its a HELL of a lot better than the Feinstien bump stock ban that simply outlawed "any modification that increases rate of fire".
So if you buy the notion that no matter what, we were going to get "something", this is better than the alternatives. Still sucks and I still think Feinstien's bill could have been defeated.
The base problem is that the BATFE is allowed to interpret the law.
Agreed. But this goes far beyond just F-Troop. The truth is we're really no longer a Republic, we're an Administrative State overseen by a Judicial Oligarchy.
Teufelhund
03-29-2018, 14:23
How did we get to this point where agencies within the Executive branch have the power to unilaterally write law? Congress doesn't have the authority to delegate its legislative powers.
Zundfolge
03-29-2018, 15:04
How did we get to this point where agencies within the Executive branch have the power to unilaterally write law? Congress doesn't have the authority to delegate its legislative powers.
Since before the Civil War with the creation of various "departments" like State, War and The Interior.
I read the government language being implemented by fiat and have to come to terms that, again, this country dies a little bit more.
How in the hell are they going to know who purchased these pieces of plastic?
CoGirl303
03-29-2018, 16:14
I read the government language being implemented by fiat and have to come to terms that, again, this country dies a little bit more.
How in the hell are they going to know who purchased these pieces of plastic?
I guess they could subpoena all the sales records?
But I see people handing them over going about as well as it did in Denver when they banned them. [Coffee]
Some one with legal smarts explain how a finger rest becomes an auto sear.
Or how pulling forward on the stock doesn't actuate the pulling of the trigger.
I guess they could subpoena all the sales records?
It was an untracked accessory that could have been moved through God knows how many hands before going to a customer. I can even conceive of someone being able to buy one of those hunks of plastic from a foreign entity via the web.
http://youtu.be/47H6yZy6QWw
CoGirl303
03-29-2018, 16:50
It was an untracked accessory that could have been moved through God knows how many hands before going to a customer. I can even conceive of someone being able to buy one of those hunks of plastic from a foreign entity via the web.
agreed. what will they do when people start 3D printing them?
what will they do when people start 3D printing them guns?
FIFY
If they keep pushing with this insanity, it will happen. Hell, governments can't control which countries have nukes. Guns are 700 year old technology. You can't put the genie back in the bottle.
Bailey Guns
03-29-2018, 16:58
Why? Why try to explain anything using fact and logic? It doesn't matter and it hasn't mattered for a long time. I (and many like me) no longer have a voice because I believe in the wrong things. It's as simple as that. I've called my elected representatives (and plenty that I didn't help to elect), I've emailed them and I've written letters. I get the same damn canned response every single time with words changed here and there to fit the subject. I've voted for those who tell me they believe much like I do. I've encouraged others to do the same. It's been a waste of time, effort and energy.
Engaging in intelligent conversation using fact and logic no longer matters. Emotion matters. That's the only thing these asshats listen to. The more emotion the better.
I've been engaged politically since Carter was president and I was old enough to vote. And where has that gotten me? No where. Just high blood pressure and more frustration and heartache with what my once proud country has become.
If you're not a loudmouthed, ignorant fucking snowflake these days no one wants to hear anything you have to say. Especially if you sound like you're a right wing, gun-loving, bible-clinging, mid-American, deplorable that doesn't think the way the communists and socialist in the media and most of the government do.
I'm beginning to sympathize with those who say the time to talk is over.
I'm beginning to sympathize with those who say the time to talk is over.
Keep your powder dry.
because such devices allow a shooter of a semiautomatic firearm to initiate a continuous firing cycle with a single pull of the trigger. Specifically, these devices convert an otherwise semiautomatic firearm into a machinegun by functioning as a self-acting or self-regulating mechanism that harnesses the recoil energy of the semiautomatic firearm in a manner that allows the trigger to reset
That's a contradictory statement which should be enough to get the ruling tossed out if it were to go to court.
Just remember Trump and the NRA pushed for this "regulation with the power of a law" from the ATF. They were content to leave it be
Just remember Trump and the NRA pushed for this "regulation with the power of a law" from the ATF. They were content to leave it be
Yep, Stable Genius TM, and his merry band o’ NRA Dim-Wits.
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BPTactical
03-29-2018, 19:16
I realized after the 2012 Judicial Committee hearings on the mag ban that we the people have no say in the political agenda regardless of what side of the coin.
It's all about the money.
The participatory part sure looks like a facade.
The goal of this is not to ban bump stocks. The goal is to see how far the ATF can push it's ability to interpret and redefine. This is about setting precident.
Search for the word 'best' in the proposed rule.
Also, to be clear this is confiscation.
How did we get to this point where agencies within the Executive branch have the power to unilaterally write law? Congress doesn't have the authority to delegate its legislative powers.
Franklin D. Roosevelt
Great-Kazoo
03-29-2018, 22:38
How did we get to this point.
We got to this point no thanks to spineless R's, who like Chamberlain appeased those who present[ed] a threat to freedom.
There's too many replies on this page to quote each and everyone with a LIKE hardly anything said is something i disagree with. Forget talking to those who throw temper tantrums, that time has passed.
They with the support of the media, say "We Want Common Sense Gun Laws" When they really mean the eradication of the 2nd Amendment and anything related to it.
Grant H.
03-29-2018, 22:42
I agree we are past the point of talking.
[Mod edit: https://www.ar-15.co/threads/166770-READ-THIS-AND-HEAR-ME-WELL ]
Grant H.
03-29-2018, 22:52
They're inviting a risk of pandora's box of Ruby Ridges to take place with this nonsense should it pass.
The infamous "They" WANT a nearly endless supply of Ruby Ridge's or Waco's.
RR/Waco types of actions will be tolerated by the general populace of America, and many FUDD gun owners will be on board with the .gov "dealing with those law breakers..." (Just for specificity, I am NOT calling anyone on this board a FUDD. CYA - Long Story)...
[Mod edit: https://www.ar-15.co/threads/166770-READ-THIS-AND-HEAR-ME-WELL ]
Great-Kazoo
03-29-2018, 23:05
The only hope that this country has of RR/Waco not being repeated is the use of the Internet/Social Media, as we witnessed in the Bundy Ranch incident.
Between the .gov patriot act, suckerberg and bill gates. The web could go dark right before kick off time.
CB, Hand Held and SW radio's are the way to go.
Grant H.
03-29-2018, 23:57
Between the .gov patriot act, suckerberg and bill gates. The web could go dark right before kick off time.
CB, Hand Held and SW radio's are the way to go.
While I completely agree with you on having CB/HH/SW radios on hand, your supposition that they will still work if they are truly trying to black out the area is faulty. Broad Spectrum jamming would eliminate all of those as working options.
The idea of blocking internet/social media only works if it is a coordinated, nationwide, simultaneous attack on the compounds.
I firmly believe that the Bundy Stand Off only succeeded due to Internet/Social Media/Real Time news/etc. Otherwise it would have gone very differently, and the truth would never have been known.
I don’t believe the .gov has the resources to hit THAT many targets at the same time. RR / Waco were “successful” because of an insane disparity of force and because only one side was truly aggressive in its actions.
My heart sinks at the prospect.
GilpinGuy
03-30-2018, 01:06
I'm sure many of you have read "Enemies Foreign and Domestic" (https://amzn.to/2Gj4Ar2) by Matthew Bracken. Does it not feel like we're inching in that direction more and more every single day? Hell, we're steamrolling in that direction now. Interesting times, for sure.
I just keep preaching the good word about guns and our rights to my kids. What else can I do at this point? Like BG wrote, it's no use even trying to communicate with, much less trust, ANY politician (R or D anyway). And trying to discuss anything guns with an anti-gun person, no matter how calm, cool and collected you are, almost always falls on deaf ears.
It's like a new religion, similar to the AGW cult fanatics. We should call anti-gun folks "Rights Deniers" from now on. I wish that would catch on, but it won't.
74125
ETA: It's a sad thing that so many of us heaved a huge sigh of relief when Killary was defeated, only to have this guy do what he's doing. He's got a few more years to come too. Like I said, interesting times. I'm trying to remember, what gun rights were lost due to Oblahblah (not state laws)? I remember a lot of threats, but no loss of rights. I can be wrong of course....just drove 13 hours and ready for freaking bed.
Aloha_Shooter
03-30-2018, 08:32
The media has stirred the non-shooting public up in a panic so of course they are reacting emotionally. When that happens, trying to respond logically just doesn't work -- the best you can do is roll along with them like a calming force while you slow down and smooth down the "action" the anti-gunners demand while appearing to go in their direction. Reacting counter-emotionally with talk about Ruby Ridge is even worse because you just feed the stereotype being pushed by the gun grabbers in the liberal media and feed the hysteria of those in the middle.
If you got another Eric Holder in office (or, God forbid, the original again), you wouldn't see it as a series of events, he'd work like Julius Caesar in Belgium and take the hotspots of resistance down one by one. We've already seen how little respect Holder has for the Constitution or federal code. We would NOT be better in any way, much less in perspective of 2A rights, under HRC because the media forces that you've seen the past month would be pushing the gun grabbing message completely rather than having 90% of their attention devoted to shrilly attacking Trump with anything they can lay their hands on.
For that matter, the liberal forces would probably drop the anti-sexual harassment campaign lest it be used against HRC and Billy Boy or Uncle Joe. IMO the reason the campaign has taken off the way it did was the liberals thought it would be another weapon they could use to take down Trump. For some reason, they didn't realize that people who voted for Trump already realize he has proclivities toward beautiful women and Trump's indiscretions -- unlike Billy Boy's or Uncle Joe's -- have been with willing partners. So all the energy you're seeing in that effort would be redirected and added to the gun-grabbing movement.
IMO, let the ATF go this route and deflate the gun-grabbers. In the meantime, ready the legal challenges through 2AF and NRA-PVC so you can hit the courts as soon as ATF issues a final ruling and get a less-liberal court rule that the ATF went beyond its authorities. By the time all of that plays out, the gun-grabbers will have worked themselves into and through a frenzy then be tuckered out like a 4 year old throwing a tantrum because you won't let him have ice cream before dinner.
Zundfolge
03-30-2018, 08:38
Franklin D. Roosevelt
The problem is older than him. Truth is, the bureaucratic state started to grow during reconstruction. It truly metastasized into a lethal cancer under Wilson. By the time FDR got his grubby mitts on it, it was really too late.
Blame Lincoln for the massive expansion of Federal power following the Civil war, which continued under Grant.
If we never had a massive explosion of Federal power, would we even be a country today?
Blame Lincoln for the massive expansion of Federal power following the Civil war, which continued under Grant.
Bingo
Grant H.
03-30-2018, 10:32
Blame Lincoln for the massive expansion of Federal power following the Civil war, which continued under Grant.
Hey, I didn't do it... :D
In all seriousness though, you are absolutely right. The civil war wasn't fought over slavery, it was fought over Federal vs State power.
So, if you happen to be in possession of one of these devices, could it be said that you have "High Yield Stocks" in your portfolio?
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