View Full Version : New chemical attack in Syria, I am confused...
bellavite1
04-09-2018, 20:11
I am happy to admit that I don't know much about chemical weapons, but I cannot quite understand:
In all the videos from the aftermath that I have seen you can see emergency personnel washing the faces of the victims with hoses etc.
I would expect that a victim's clothing would absorb a lot of these chemicals when exposure occurs and I would want to shed such clothes ASAP so that I don't keep breathing the fumes, and yet that does not seem to be the case...
DenverGP
04-09-2018, 21:00
It's definitely true that clothes can hold onto the gas.... In my air force days, we'd go thru chem training every year where they tear-gas us in the "confidence chamber". We'd stand around in the tear gas with our mask on, then one by one step to the door, remove the mask, take a breath and give our name/rank/serial number before they'd let us out. Right afterwards, we had someone in my barracks wash their uniform in hot water, and everyone on that floor was coughing and eyes watering.
I don't know about this one, but the same way it's happened with palenstinians, in syria you have had instances of them caught faking injuries etc to make a big media show. Same "victims" used over and over, people supposedly shot/bombed getting picked up by crews in 30 seconds. Look up the white hats or white helmets or whatever. (Where they have gotten photo's of members posing with ISIS types and being armed when they shouldn't.) Been a while since I was looking at that stuff so don't have a link or anything more specific.
Martinjmpr
04-10-2018, 09:10
Depends on the chemical. Some chemical agents are aerosols and evaporate quickly. Most are liquid in some form (which is why it annoys me to hear the term "nerve gas" - it's not a gas.)
Nerve agents typically kill by paralyzing the muscles which causes victims to stop breathing so restoring breathing is the first priority, decontamination is a secondary concern.
As far as the whole pearl-clutching about chemical weapons, I wonder if the people who are demanding that we ZOMG DO SOMETHING!!!!!!1!!!! have stopped to consider that when they say we have to 'DO SOMETHING' about chemical weapons (only) what they are essentially saying is this: "Hey, third-world dictators, it's totally cool to massacre your own citizens as long as you use bullets, bombs and artillery, but chemical weapons are a no-go!"
Jihadists lie? Staged war crimes? Say it ain't so!
http://www.captainsquartersblog.com/mt/pubfiles/bullets8-07.jpg
Martinjmpr
04-10-2018, 10:45
[Dunno] I honestly wouldn't care if Assad stood up in front of cameras and admitted that he used chemical weapons.
After decades of hearing about the horrors of Saddam's Iraq, the US and a few of its allies finally took the bull by the horns and took the sadistic son-of-a-bitch out.
And the furrowed brows and talking heads who consider themselves the "conscience of the world" lost their collective shit, accused us of war crimes, etc, etc etc.
Now the EXACT SAME PEOPLE are demanding that we DO SOMETHING!!!!!! about Syria because a brutal dictator is massacring his own people?
[hahhah-no]
Nope. To hell with them. We've already been down that road and instead of earning the gratitude of the people who demanded that we DO SOMETHING!!!! about Saddam, all it did was cost us a lot of blood and treasure.
Lesson learned: When "the world" demands that you "DO SOMETHING", tell "the world" to do it themselves.
Tell the self-appointed consciences of the world that the US is no longer in the dictator-removing business.
If they want Assad removed, let them do it themselves.
Prior to the sanctions, Iraq was actually not bad. In the 1970's, the Iraqi dinar was worth 3 US dollars. Europeans were going to Iraq for graduate and doctoral programs. The Iran-Iraq war didn't help anything.
In general, pre-Invasion Iraq was a simple process: don't go against the regime and you live a relatively normal life. Iraq was much more Western in the cities before US involvement, as was Iran before our assistance in overthrowing the Shah. Not an American ideal, but let's be honest about our present situation as well as the reality of the alternative in the Middle East: Sharia law.
Iraq was never going to recover from sanctions, no matter what Saddam did. It would have been a death sentence to his power to comply in full. He was screwed regardless of what he did, and he knew it.
Who cares/cared if Saddam was a dictator?
Look at Saudi Arabia. An awful place. If freedom of the Western variety were really the goal, we'd have invaded them 5 times over. If 9/11 was the excuse -- where did the money, hijackers, and the brand of Islam which did the attack come from? Saudi. CERTAINLY not Iraq. The Kurds, for us, are a puppet and an excuse. We DO NOT care about the Kurds. It would end all diplomatic relations with Turkey to overtly support them. We left them out to dry in 1991 and we left them out to dry in 2003-present. We also left the Shi'a out to dry in 1991. WE encouraged them to rise up and then provided no assistance. I cannot recall if it was in Jon Lee Anderson's "The Fall of Baghdad" or another book about the invasion, but there was a Marine unit bogged down in maybe Basra or another town, can't recall which one -- either way, a Shi'a town. One of the Marine officers asked one of the elders why they were fighting them since they were going to overthrow their mortal enemy. The elder replied along the lines of, "You abandoned us in 1991. If you had helped and we still lost, we would have greeted you with flowers. You betrayed us, so we greet you with guns."
We are simply repeating in Syria the mistakes of Iraq. Assad is not necessarily a good guy in a Western sense. He is fully willing to massacre enemies, fellow citizens though they may be. What's wrong with that, exactly? Particularly when those enemies would remove a secular boot from a certain subset of the population, and place a mohammedan sandle on the necks of all.
I ask, who does this agenda serve? It's not the US. Leaders like Saddam and Assad would be great allies to have. At least their pragmatism is more trustworthy than the taqqiya of dedicated Islamists.
Only one outcome can come from a destabilized, purely Islamist Middle East: hot regional war, Israel pulling out all stops, and either ww3 exploding from beneath the surface crust of regional proxies or a global entity taking away the necessity of national sovereignty.
Either way, both the people of the region and the US do not benefit.
Martinjmpr
04-10-2018, 12:24
In general, pre-Invasion Iraq was a simple process: don't go against the regime and you live a relatively normal life. Iraq was much more Western in the cities before US involvement, as was Iran before our assistance in overthrowing the Shah. Not an American ideal, but let's be honest about our present situation as well as the reality of the alternative in the Middle East: Sharia law.
Well, there was that whole "invading Kuwait and threatening Saudi Arabia" thing, too. ;)
And there was the whole "Saddam asking the US ambassador what the US would do if Iraq invaded Kuwait, to which the Ambassador, relaying the words of President Bush, said that 'The US would consider it an Arab matter.'" Translation: Not our problem.
There was also the whole Kuwait giving Saddam money to fight Iran for them, who was also threatening Kuwait during the Iran-Iraq war and so Saddam said he could provide troops and fight for them if they assisted financially, and then demanding he pay them back *with interest*. To wit, he said, "Hold my arak and watch this," in true Mid-East redneck fashion.
Let the UN go charging in there with their baby blue helmets and serialized pieces of paper stating that they object to what's been going on, in the strongest wording possible. That'll scare 'em straight.
[hahhah-no]
Bailey Guns
04-10-2018, 13:11
The whole region is so fucked up now I don't even have a clue what's really going on or who to believe about what's going on. Frankly, I think it's so complicated that no one really knows what's going on and that's part of why it's been impossible to fix.
BushMasterBoy
04-10-2018, 13:25
It all has to do with the price of oil. Nothing else matters to the West. Was $140 a barrel, now in the 60's. Feel free to quote and counter.
Martinjmpr
04-10-2018, 16:18
If we wanted to minimize casualties (if that was even an objective), we'd face reality, join Assad and the Russian's and get it over with. Yes, a shit ton of people would die, but also a shit ton less than under our current strategy. But, we can't do that because mini-cold war.
Or, better yet, just pull out and let Russia have this tar baby if they want it. I'm sure there's not 1 American in 10,000 who cares which tyrant is in charge of that shithole. I sure as hell don't.
And I'm still :rolleyes: at the notion that chemical weapons are somehow "beyond the pale" and thus deserving of intervention. Like being killed with nerve agent is somehow a worse way to die than being blown apart by bombs or artillery shells or shot to pieces by bullets.
It reminds me of that line from Apocalypse Now, Col Kurtz said "We train young men to drop fire on people, but their commanders won't allow them to write "fuck" on their airplanes because it's obscene!"
It has been proven that the first gas/chemical attack that got us into Syria never happened so take this attack with a grain of salt. Odd that this one happened not long after the US signalled that it was thinking of withdrawing from this conflict.
Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk
cmailliard
04-10-2018, 18:38
OP you are correct. The British with some help from HHS did a study and found removing clothes gets like 80-90% of contamination off, wiping down with a towel gets that up to 99%.
https://homelandprepnews.com/countermeasures/18790-hhs-study-removing-clothes-wiping-cloth-removes-99-percent-contaminants/
Decontamination is the number one priority and getting naked is the first step. Water is good, but you need some soap to decrease the surface tension of the liquid agent to get it off of your skin (think you hands after making a hamburger patty). Baby shampoo is what most teams use, but any soap, like Dawn, will work well. Most Nerve Agents are liquid and rarely are a gas, they are aerosolized as others have said, but they technically remain a liquid.
From a self protection standpoint if you are ever needing decontamination a gym with pool and shower are good choices. Next best choice a building fire sprinkler system. Break the glass bulb or metal plate and water will flow. It may be nasty water at first, but probably better than that nerve agent on you.
Signs and symptoms of nerve agent exposure are:
Salivation - Drool
Lacrimation - Tears
Urination - Pee
Defication - Poo
GI Pain - Tummy hurts
Emesis - Puke
Miosis - Pinpoint Pupils
You will also see Runny Nose and Bronchospasm. Ultimately you will die from a respiratory cause. Not sure if many are still out there on YouTube (guns bad but death by Sarin is ok), but I have a bunch of videos from the first two Sarin attacks in Syria and they demonstrate these signs and symptoms.
Treatment is airway and breathing. Atropine to treat the Cholinergic Effects (the signs and symptoms) and Pralidoxime Chloride (2-PAM) to remove the nerve agent from the Acetylcholinesterase (true antidote).
I have offered in the past, but if people are interested in a class, I can offer one up. Full on Hazmat/WMD class, even let you play with some radioactive isotopes and a radiation detector and put you in some PPE. Show you a MARK I Nerve Agent Antidote Kit (NAAK) and a DuoDote NAAK and how they work.
bellavite1
04-10-2018, 20:07
OP you are correct. The British with some help from HHS did a study and found removing clothes gets like 80-90% of contamination off, wiping down with a towel gets that up to 99%.
https://homelandprepnews.com/countermeasures/18790-hhs-study-removing-clothes-wiping-cloth-removes-99-percent-contaminants/
Decontamination is the number one priority and getting naked is the first step. Water is good, but you need some soap to decrease the surface tension of the liquid agent to get it off of your skin (think you hands after making a hamburger patty). Baby shampoo is what most teams use, but any soap, like Dawn, will work well. Most Nerve Agents are liquid and rarely are a gas, they are aerosolized as others have said, but they technically remain a liquid.
From a self protection standpoint if you are ever needing decontamination a gym with pool and shower are good choices. Next best choice a building fire sprinkler system. Break the glass bulb or metal plate and water will flow. It may be nasty water at first, but probably better than that nerve agent on you.
Signs and symptoms of nerve agent exposure are:
Salivation - Drool
Lacrimation - Tears
Urination - Pee
Defication - Poo
GI Pain - Tummy hurts
Emesis - Puke
Miosis - Pinpoint Pupils
You will also see Runny Nose and Bronchospasm. Ultimately you will die from a respiratory cause. Not sure if many are still out there on YouTube (guns bad but death by Sarin is ok), but I have a bunch of videos from the first two Sarin attacks in Syria and they demonstrate these signs and symptoms.
Treatment is airway and breathing. Atropine to treat the Cholinergic Effects (the signs and symptoms) and Pralidoxime Chloride (2-PAM) to remove the nerve agent from the Acetylcholinesterase (true antidote).
I have offered in the past, but if people are interested in a class, I can offer one up. Full on Hazmat/WMD class, even let you play with some radioactive isotopes and a radiation detector and put you in some PPE. Show you a MARK I Nerve Agent Antidote Kit (NAAK) and a DuoDote NAAK and how they work.
Thank you.
I can now officially call bullshit on these videos.
Signs and symptoms of nerve agent exposure are:
Salivation - Drool
Lacrimation - Tears
Urination - Pee
Defication - Poo
GI Pain - Tummy hurts
Emesis - Puke
Miosis - Pinpoint Pupils
Sounds a great deal like exposure to a hot babe that won't give you the time of day. Except for the pee, puke, and poo....
BushMasterBoy
04-13-2018, 19:54
It is getting real now...the president has ordered an attack according to NYT.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/13/world/middleeast/trump-strikes-syria-attack.html
Watching Mattis and Dunford live.
“Don’t go slow, be careful” Jedi
It has been proven that the first gas/chemical attack that got us into Syria never happened so take this attack with a grain of salt. Odd that this one happened not long after the US signalled that it was thinking of withdrawing from this conflict.
Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk
First I’d heard it had been debunked, got any links to non Alexy Jones type sites?
“Don’t go slow, be careful” Jedi
It just never gets old watching the executive branch bomb whoever the fuck they feel like whenever they feel like it...
Jihad Watch shares my skepticism. https://www.jihadwatch.org/2018/04/trump-orders-airstrikes-against-syria
1. Is it certain that Assad’s regime really used the chemical weapons? There is so much manufacture of atrocities in that region, it cannot be taken for granted that he has, especially since there is no clear benefit to him in doing so.
Defense contractors rejoice as we wasted more US taxpayer treasure on a worthless region last night.
Get the fvck out of that no win region. Nothing of benefit for the US comes from this region.
Humanitarian efforts abroad can come after we fix our own, and have zero debt.
Signs and symptoms of nerve agent exposure are:
Salivation - Drool
Lacrimation - Tears
Urination - Pee
Defication - Poo
GI Pain - Tummy hurts
Emesis - Puke
Miosis - Pinpoint Pupils
Sounds a great deal like exposure to a hot babe that won't give you the time of day. Except for the pee, puke, and poo....
Sounds like a hangover.
I found it interesting that when pressed on Sarin or just Chlorine, Mattis (or was it Dunford?) said they know for sure Chlorine was used but couldn't comment on Sarin. That's a break from the previous week's hyperbole.
As many of us know, Chlorine is a favorite for the jihadists -- available in mass quantities, easily dispersed via VBIED, and in Iraq they had a history of using it.
Since Sarin is unconfirmed and Chlorine is confirmed, could it not simply be the case that a conventional Syrian strike hit a stockpile of the jihadists'?
Here’s my theory. Regardless of wether there was an actual usage of chemical weapons by the Assad government against civilians, U.S., UK, and French intel were made aware of plans to use NBC materials sourced from Syria in an impending attack, and or they decided a significantly reduced in capability Syrian Chemical weapons program was in the Western worlds favor. Russia may have even played along so that Syria will think Russia is still their friend.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180415/4bc1a8a6d4b2282cf36de9439de9ea55.jpg74383
“Don’t go slow, be careful” Jedi
DavieD55
04-15-2018, 08:29
It's bullshit.
Colorado Osprey
04-15-2018, 08:45
While some believe all the conspiracy type false flag BS and the government is also poisoning its own people with chem trails.... you might also consider it was accurate information and you bought into propaganda brought to you by Russia who we are again in a cold war with.
But yeah, lets just believe who we are at odds with..... As Red Foreman would say to his son.
While some believe all the conspiracy type false flag BS and the government is also poisoning its own people with chem trails.... you might also consider it was accurate information and you bought into propaganda brought to you by Russia who we are again in a cold war with.
But yeah, lets just believe who we are at odds with..... As Red Foreman would say to his son.
Wasn’t Northwoods and actual thing?
Was reading in an article yesterday that we used several of a new stealth air-to-ground missile launched from a couple of B-1B bombers in the attack. They apparently hadn't been used in combat operations before.
I bet the attack cost us a lot more in missiles than it will cost them to rebuild the facilities.
ETA: Link to article I read yesterday;
Warship Ruse, New Stealth Missiles: How They Attacked Syria (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/warship-ruse-new-stealth-missiles-how-they-attacked-syria/ar-AAvSBZH)
As the president addressed the nation at 9 p.m. Washington time, on Friday, a barrage of 105 U.S., U.K. and French missiles converged on Syria. They came from the Red Sea, the Arabian Gulf and the Mediterranean, homing in from three directions to overwhelm whatever missile defenses Assad’s regime might deploy. Russia’s more advanced air defense system didn’t engage the allied weapons.
According to the Pentagon, the allied weaponry included 19 new “Extended-Range” stealthy Joint Air-to-Surface Standoff Attack Munitions launched by two B-1B bombers based out of Al Udeid Air Base, Qatar, and six Tomahawk cruise missiles launched from the Virginia-class USS John Warner submarine. The bomber-launched missiles, build by Lockheed Martin Corp., had never been used in combat.
theGinsue
04-15-2018, 12:35
The biggest thing I'm happy with is no American lives were lost in this action.
The biggest thing I'm happy with is no American lives were lost in this action.
Amen, brother.
Bailey Guns
04-15-2018, 20:01
Was reading in an article yesterday that we used several of a new stealth air-to-ground missile launched from a couple of B-1B bombers in the attack. They apparently hadn't been used in combat operations before.
I bet the attack cost us a lot more in missiles than it will cost them to rebuild the facilities.
ETA: Link to article I read yesterday;
Warship Ruse, New Stealth Missiles: How They Attacked Syria (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/warship-ruse-new-stealth-missiles-how-they-attacked-syria/ar-AAvSBZH)
The difference in reporting from the US/UK/France on the effectiveness of the strike and the Russian version of the effectiveness of the strike...it's like they're talking about two entirely separate events.
Russia really likes to embellish stories about how effective their military equipment is. But it seems that every single time we've come up against Russian equipment in combat (not just the US...other countries as well) it gets annihilated. So I tend to believe that at least the majority (maybe an overwhelming majority) of missiles hit their targets and were likely not shot down. Especially by Syrian forces.
On the other hand...I generally find it hard to believe a word that comes from my own gov't.
hollohas
04-17-2018, 09:28
Famous and award winning war reporter who interviewed witnesses in person says he couldn't find a single person to confirm a gas attack. A doctor from the hospital says the videos were real, but it wasn't gas. It was lack of oxygen from all the people hiding in tunnels.
www.independent.co.uk/voices/syria-chemical-attack-gas-douma-robert-fisk-ghouta-damascus-a8307726.html
Can we leave now?
Like we should have in Afghanistan the moment Bin Laden was killed. Still waiting ...
Like we should have in Afghanistan the moment Bin Laden was killed. Still waiting ...
Obama wasn't going to do that, I strongly believe that one of the reasons obama kept us in Afghanistan was so patriots in the military could be killed before they came back home to help us fight either obama or then next (D) president. Sounds far-fetched doesn't it, well if you stop to think about the vitriol and hatred the (D) have shown towards our veterans, troops in service, and regular citizens who oppose the (D) agenda it ought to be obvious.
The history of Afghanistan shows repeated failures by nations to conquer it. But we all know that history doesn't matter to the government or global corporations.
What national resources does Afghanistan hold that either we want or we're trying to prevent other nations from finding and using? Afghanistan also provides us a foothold on the eastern side of Iran. Combine that with our bases in Saudi Arabia and Qatar and we have a strong presence but our presence alone isn't keeping the mullahs in Iran from raising hell all over the middle east.
President Trump promised during his campaign that he would get us out of Afghanistan, I was very disappointed when PDT announced that we would stay on. I'm not privy to insider information so perhaps there is a very good reason to stay on.
Now that I've gotten us way off topic I'll bring us back.
Are the Syrian Kurd's worth additional blood and treasure from the United States? I can't think of any other reason to remain in Syria.
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