View Full Version : .300 WSM or .300 Win Mag
I have experience with the .300 Win Mag, looking to see if any one out there has experience with hopefully both. Looking at building a new heavy rifle and it'll be one of those two chambers, just don't know which. If I go Win Mag it'll be set up to shoot the Berger 230's. The WSM I don't know what I would run but heavier the better for me. I want to set it up for mostly LR shooting but will double as a hunting rifle for a couple weeks out of the year. Either way weight will be a consideration while being built. Let me know your input on the WSM or if you have experience with both then your comparison of the two. Thanks.
encorehunter
04-12-2018, 06:15
The win mag has more energy. The wsm is closer to the .300 h&h in energy. The wsm is nice because of the short action which saves about a pound of weight. I shoot 180s in both of mine, and both shoot well. The win mag is more powerful, but I don't know that an animal would know the difference.
The win mag has more energy. The wsm is closer to the .300 h&h in energy. The wsm is nice because of the short action which saves about a pound of weight. I shoot 180s in both of mine, and both shoot well. The win mag is more powerful, but I don't know that an animal would know the difference.
Ever tried shooting anything heavier, maybe towards the 210's? Like I said, it'll spend a couple weeks hunting but mostly LR shooting. Thanks
encorehunter
04-12-2018, 08:05
I haven't shot anything other than the 180s. After I purchased my rifle, my father bought .300wsm with 650 rounds of ammo with it, all 180s. Needless to say, it is a lifetime of hunting ammo.
Build a 7 , the bullets available leave 30 cal in the dust and will kill anything in North America.
Build a 7 , the bullets available leave 30 cal in the dust and will kill anything in North America.
Seems the 7's run heavies at about 180? What kind of energy do they have out past 1K for ringing steel etc.? Thanks
A 7 with one of the new heavies is supersonic past a mile depending on atmosphere . Would have to run the numbers on energy when I'm at the house .
Depending on velocity a heavy 7 will shoot inside of my 338 Lapua with 300s.
BC on the 180 - 190 gr 7s is as good or better than the 230 - 240 gr 30s with a rifle that doesn't beat you up as bad .
Rough numbers for a 180 ELDM at 2950 is just over 2000 fps and 1650 ft lbs at 1k
Rough numbers for a 180 ELDM at 2950 is just over 2000 fps and 1650 ft lbs at 1k
We’re still talking SAUm or WSM correct? Or straight 7 mag? Thanks
Either , both are capable of pushing a 180 at 2950 , there are also the 7/300 WM and WSM also that have more case capacity .
No way I'd ever build anything in 30 cal any more without going to something like a 300 Norma , The heavy bullets in 6 - 7 mm have come leaps and bounds in the last 3 or 4 years .
I still like the new heavy 30’s, there like watching a C-130 fly. It’s gonna get there, hit hard when it does, but it looks like it’s gonna fall out of the sky the whole time it’s flying! I like short barreled heavy guns, and the 30’s tend to work well in them. But I’m game for new stuff to. The last 7mm I had I was loading with the 162 amax, seemed like you could go prairie dogging with that gun at 500 meters and it would be like shooting a 22 at 100. I didn’t know they were even running 190’s in 7mm.
Short barreled anything in a magnum caliber is going to be a compromise , to get the heavy for caliber bullets to perform takes velocity and barrel length is part of that equation . I wouldn't build a magnum caliber rifle for long range with shorter than 26 and most likely would end up at 28 .
A hunting gun used at reasonable hunting ranges is a different critter .
Totally agree with that, not sure where I am going to compromise and how much till I decide on the caliber first. I may be better off building a switch barrel and swap the barrel out once a year during hunting season and switching back after its over on something like a Surgeon action. Develop a load for both barrels and run it that way. Which leads me back to my original problem of picking a caliber!
Switch barrel opens up more options because you could use different calibers in the same bolt face , cartridge length .
XC700116
04-12-2018, 21:16
Like C Ward said, go 7mm. And if you go with a WSM case, do it on a long action.
Pro's for WM/RM cases is magazines are easier to find/deal with if you're running a AI type magazine. WSM's require using 338 Lapua mags in a Long action and are 5 round only, if that's an issue for you. If not it's a moot point.
WSM/Saum advantage is not dealing with a belted case. Disadvantage is brass availability, but it can be found without much problems.
If doing a WSM and going 7mm DO NOT do a 7WSM, go 7/300WSM as it's a simple neck down from 300 WSM brass. The original 7WSM has a longer shoulder length and brass is nearly unobtainable and thereby needs to be made and fire formed from 300 WSM (or 270 or 325) whereas the 7/300, you just neck it down.
WSM's throated for a long action don't give up any performance to the WinMag/RemMag cases.
For example I have 2 rifles chambered in 7/300 WSM, my hunting rifle has a 26" barrel and I run 162's out of it at 3100 fps and change without breaking a sweat (I've run them up to 3200 but it's at the pressure limits for sure. (this one is a short action)
My ELR rig is the same chambering on a long action and throated to run 180 class bullets at full case capacity. It has a 30" barrel and runs 180 ELDM's with no pressure issues at 3150 fps. At our elevation it delivers a 180 ELDM at 2229 fps and 1985 ft/lbs @ 1000 yards. It goes transonic at 2550 yards. The only thing in a 30 cal and a standard magnum action that comes close is a 30 Nosler and it's not quite there.
For ballistics and energy on target the big 7's are very tough to beat. That said a 300 Norma is pretty impressive as well, but you're playing with Lapua mag actions in that case.
bobbyfairbanks
04-13-2018, 08:46
If you plan on shooting 230 grain 30 cal then it’s time to pull your head out of forth point of contact and just build a 338 something
If doing a WSM and going 7mm DO NOT do a 7WSM, go 7/300WSM as it's a simple neck down from 300 WSM brass. The original 7WSM has a longer shoulder length and brass is nearly unobtainable and thereby needs to be made and fire formed from 300 WSM (or 270 or 325) whereas the 7/300, you just neck it down.
WSM's throated for a long action don't give up any performance to the WinMag/RemMag cases.
For example I have 2 rifles chambered in 7/300 WSM, my hunting rifle has a 26" barrel and I run 162's out of it at 3100 fps and change without breaking a sweat (I've run them up to 3200 but it's at the pressure limits for sure. (this one is a short action)
My ELR rig is the same chambering on a long action and throated to run 180 class bullets at full case capacity. It has a 30" barrel and runs 180 ELDM's with no pressure issues at 3150 fps. At our elevation it delivers a 180 ELDM at 2229 fps and 1985 ft/lbs @ 1000 yards. It goes transonic at 2550 yards. The only thing in a 30 cal and a standard magnum action that comes close is a 30 Nosler and it's not quite there.
For ballistics and energy on target the big 7's are very tough to beat. That said a 300 Norma is pretty impressive as well, but you're playing with Lapua mag actions in that case.
One thing I never understood was building a WSM or SAUM and having to use a long action. Whats the point? I mean I get it and why but you just cancelled out the whole reasons of the benefits of that cartridge. I agree on the Norma, but barrel life is still a concern for me.
If you plan on shooting 230 grain 30 cal then it’s time to pull your head out of forth point of contact and just build a 338 something
Why not build a .338 Win Mag that shoots the heavies that can mimic the lighter rounds of a .338 Lapua? I don't have the expense of a Lapua, a specific can for a Lapua, an action dedicated to a Lapua, but can mimic the ballistics. I agree the Lapua is a great round, I had one.
Can't get the velocity with a 338 WM to take advantage of the BC on heavy 338s , even with 250s a WM is at 2550 ish .
With a WM based cartridge a 7 with the .8 BC heavies lays waste to pretty much all else .
Can't get the velocity with a 338 WM to take advantage of the BC on heavy 338s , even with 250s a WM is at 2550 ish .
With a WM based cartridge a 7 with the .8 BC heavies lays waste to pretty much all else .
Sorry, I actually meant a .300 Win Mag, not the .338 Win mag.
So, can a 7mm WSM be built on a short action to shoot the 180's or would it need a LA and LA mags?
You can build it on a normal WSM size actions . You can get the 2900-2950 velocity range easy enough .
Doing a short mag in a long action allows you to max out the amount of case capacity you can use by allowing a longer OAL so you don't loose as much by having to seat the bullet deeper in the case .
The issue right now with the SAUM and WSM is brass availability . Remington hasn't had reloading brass in damn near a decade now and the Winchester stuff is just starting to show up again . So the only readily available stuff is expensive shitty Nosler brass .
The long action RM and WM brass from Winchester is back in stock at Powder Valley last time I checked , which is cheaper and a harder alloy than the Nosler / Norma junk .
For that reason I'd go long action because without brass you aren't shooting . If I was building a 7 now it would be a long action in 7/300 WM . Same case as the RM but 1/10th of an inch longer for more case capacity and built around the 180 ELDM . That combo easily makes 3000 fps and the Hornady bullets are cheaper and more readily available than the Berger 190s .
Have been shooting the ELDM's in 6.5 and 338 for a year now and they work well .
The thing with the 230 / 240 GR 30 cal bullets in a win mag chamber is without a custom chamber with the throat pushed way out they are 2600-2650 ish fps .
The military load with the 230s IIRC are stupid hot and not something I'd want to have to support on my own dime .
The 300 WM is probably best used with something in the 200-210 GR range to balance usable velocity and bullet performance .
The thing with the 230 / 240 GR 30 cal bullets in a win mag chamber is without a custom chamber with the throat pushed way out they are 2600-2650 ish fps .
The military load with the 230s IIRC are stupid hot and not something I'd want to have to support on my own dime .
The 300 WM is probably best used with something in the 200-210 GR range to balance usable velocity and bullet performance .
I'm sorry, don't know what you mean "is without a custom chamber"? If one caliber I choose is Win Mag I would probably lean towards the 215's. One of my others I used to run the 208's and I liked the way it performed.
Delfuego
04-13-2018, 23:45
7SAUM will do 2900-3000fps with a 180 out of either a short or long action. Long action makes things easier because of magazine length. I got a new 29" barrel, bolt-head and magazines for my Bighorn and screwed it on last week. Not quite as fast as XC's 7/300 WSM, or as sexy looking, but should deliver the mail out to a mile or so. I know Mark Chanlynn has chambered a couple 7SAUM's recently if you need a smith, I can also put you in touch with another is you decide to go that way.
Whichever you decide on, you better come down and shoot that sucker.
7SAUM will do 2900-3000fps with a 180 out of either a short or long action. Long action makes things easier because of magazine length. I got a new 29" barrel, bolt-head and magazines for my Bighorn and screwed it on last week. Not quite as fast as XC's 7/300 WSM, or as sexy looking, but should deliver the mail out to a mile or so. I know Mark Chanlynn has chambered a couple 7SAUM's recently if you need a smith, I can also put you in touch with another is you decide to go that way.
Whichever you decide on, you better come down and shoot that sucker.
I'm planning on it for sure. I just had a second surgery on my back (cervical fusion) with screws and rods. So while I'm down I want to build another to shoot. I guess my plan right now is to build a switch barrel in 7mm SAUM and .300 Win mag, give me a chance to play with both. I'll build it on a Surgeon LA most likely. Might just have Bugholes chamber me two barrels with the bugnut and call it a day!
What do you recommend for a twist rate for the 180's in 7mm?
8.5 twist
I too am in the 7 camp. Just had a 2nd 7saum built on a short action, 30" barrel. Intended purpose ELR matches. Just started working up a load, up against 3000fps/180 Hybrids. Elrod chambered it.
1st 7saum a few years back, also on a short action. 2950/180 Hybrids 27" was the sweet spot with it. pulled the barrel with 1600rds.
Previous to that had a straight 284 on a long action. Shot the Sierra 175 SMK's, Berger 180 Hybrids just came out when I pulled the barrel at 2500rds. Depending how far you are going to shoot, the 284 is a sweet caliber. Very easy to tune, easy neck up Lapua 6.5x284 brass. Clearly see why the 284 is the darling of the 1000yd F-Class Open. It will drop anything at a realistic hunting distance.
The 300 WM with the 230 / 240 s will need a chamber cut with a longer than SAMMI spec throat because of the extra bullet length .
Look at the research Litz is doing about twist rates and BC , the old consensus of just use the bare minimum twist is been been pretty much disproven and there is a benefit to over stabilization especially at long range .
Buddy just finished his 7RM and is running the 180 ELDM and the twist is 7.5 ,IIRC , I'll have to check . The thing is a hammer and the 5 rds I shot out of it without adjusting it to me went in to about 2 1/2 inches at 640 yds prone with a bipod and bag . Just checked and the rifle is an 8 twist
He built the gun heavy with a 28" barrel on a Defiance action with 30 moa built in to the receiver , my first choice for actions now . Rifle weighs in at 20 - 21 lbs and recoils about like a 308 with no can on it .
With having a jacked up back a 7 will be easier to shoot , the 300 WM with 230 / 240 s has probably 30-40 % more recoil than a 7 with 180 s all else being equal .
Look at the research Litz is doing about twist rates and BC , the old consensus of just use the bare minimum twist is been been pretty much disproven and there is a benefit to over stabilization especially at long range .
Good point, reason I went with a 8.5 twist on the new one, distances I plan on shooting......
My plan was to use a 1:8 twist at 22"-24" for a hunting rifle. Now I'm just thinking of using a Remington short action with a proof barrel and running it lighter than normal.
My proof is a consistent 1/2 moa with everything I've fed it . The thing with lighter rifles to remember is a lighter rifle is less forgiving and the fundamentals are more important to repeatable accuracy .
Delfuego
04-14-2018, 20:43
I also went with an 8.5 twist. I actually added +4lbs kit to the stock and a Fat Bastard brake to mine to help with recoil and piss off Chuck...
to help with recoil and piss off Chuck...
Win-Win
Don't make me angry , you won't like me when I'm angry
I plan on bringing my 7 saum to the long range magnum match in Raton this month and I'm happy to report that I finally got that suppressor that I've been promising to get for the last 3 years.
I plan on bringing my 7 saum to the long range magnum match in Raton this month and I'm happy to report that I finally got that suppressor that I've been promising to get for the last 3 years.
I'm gonna go with a 7 SAUM, thinking 1:8 twist, probably 22", switch barrel so I can run my 6.5x47 on the same action when its not set up for hunting.
7 SAUM and 6.5x47 have different case head diameters and the internal dimensions of the feed lips in the action are different also .
May be able to get by with just changing the bolts , not certain on that and you would need to get with the action manufacturer.
7 SAUM and 6.5x47 have different case head diameters and the internal dimensions of the feed lips in the action are different also .
May be able to get by with just changing the bolts , no certain on that and you would need to get with the action manufacturer.
I knew about the bolt and just so happened that there was a magnum short action bolt for sale on the Hide, so I snatched it up. I've seen other rifles running on Surgeon actions run both before, meaning a standard boltface caliber and swapped to a magnum caliber. But your right, a quick call to Surgeon won't hurt. Any advice on whether to run SAUM or WSM? Is 1:8 to fast for the 180's? Thanks
Delfuego
04-15-2018, 22:27
I know the Bighorns are machined with exact tolerances and you can swap barrel and bolt heads w/o headspace issues. I do not know about Surgeons. Likely both barrels and both bolts will need to go to the smith's together and a reputable smith.
I knew about the bolt and just so happened that there was a magnum short action bolt for sale on the Hide, so I snatched it up. I've seen other rifles running on Surgeon actions run both before, meaning a standard boltface caliber and swapped to a magnum caliber. But your right, a quick call to Surgeon won't hurt. Any advice on whether to run SAUM or WSM? Is 1:8 to fast for the 180's? Thanks
Many years ago I ordered an action from Surgeon with a 223 and 308 bolt. I am *still* waiting on that 223 bolt. Its ok though, I sold the action once I started getting the runaround from those knuckleheads.
Many years ago I ordered an action from Surgeon with a 223 and 308 bolt. I am *still* waiting on that 223 bolt. Its ok though, I sold the action once I started getting the runaround from those knuckleheads.
I can understand that. Thats what I tend to do also, start messing around and screwing me over and I'll just sell the shit and move on to someone else. I did it with Dodge on a diesel truck, they started screwing around with me so I just sold the truck, went across the street and bought a different truck! I haven't had that experience with Surgeon yet, and the bolt I just bought it from a private seller who had it in hand and brand new. On another note, if you do ever get that .223 bolt I could use it. HAHA! Just messing with you.
8 twist will work just fine with the 180s . Both the cartridges work fine , the SAUM has slightly more case capacity than the WSM but brass availability is crap most of the time . Going to a 7/300 WSM takes care of the case capacity issue and brass is slightly more available .
Best I can say about Surgeon is it's not the same company now as it was when Preston was the owner and running the show . Defiance would be my first choice now .
XC700116
04-16-2018, 23:08
One thing I never understood was building a WSM or SAUM and having to use a long action. Whats the point? I mean I get it and why but you just cancelled out the whole reasons of the benefits of that cartridge. I agree on the Norma, but barrel life is still a concern for me.
.
But you don't, you actualize the potential of the cartridge, which is greater than that of a win Mag or Rem Mag due to the efficiency of the case design (hence 180's at 3150 fps) that and not having to deal with belted brass.
Cramming the bullets into the case to fit in a short action is cutting it's nuts by a lot. Will it work, yes but it's not at it's best. .284 win is very similar, it works in a Short action but is at it's best in a long action. Also consider that the cartridges were designed around the lighter end of the weight for caliber bullets, which are a lot shorter and thereby don't suck up the case capacity like the big bullets do.
Build a 7 , the bullets available leave 30 cal in the dust and will kill anything in North America.
So along the way of this whole which 30 cal to build I ended up with a 7mm SAUM, thanks C Ward, and in the end I decided on a dedicated hunting rifle and will have Bugholes spin me up a barrel for my Surgeon switch barrel. The hunting rig is just about ready, few finishing touches, LRI handled all the real work though. I was able to buy out a guy that was getting out of the 7mm game and was able to get some Nosler brass, Redding Comp. dies, and some Berger 180's to get things rolling. Remember being young and swearing those new shoes you just got made you faster? I swear I look at this rifle and think there is no game animal safe this season if I have the tag for it! Thanks for everyones input, I still have a KMW Sentinel stock inlet for a long action with DBM and a Bartlein 1:8 twist .30 cal barrel to build a .30 something when I'm ready for that, been thinking Norma Mag. But who knows, for now I have a couple rifles to get loads developed for and data on to finish out this year. Heres a quick look at my 7mm SAUM hunting rig.
Remington 700
Proof CF 7mm finished at 22"
McMillan HTG w/PT&G DBM
Accurate SAUM Magazine
Harris 6-9 SBRM
Nightforce scope rail
Timney CE trigger
8.6 lbs as pictured
https://i.imgur.com/26hVjKU.jpg?4
You shoot that thing a while and you'll never want another 30 cal , need bigger go to 338 or 375
Like C Ward said, go 7mm. And if you go with a WSM case, do it on a long action.
Pro's for WM/RM cases is magazines are easier to find/deal with if you're running a AI type magazine. WSM's require using 338 Lapua mags in a Long action and are 5 round only, if that's an issue for you. If not it's a moot point.
WSM/Saum advantage is not dealing with a belted case. Disadvantage is brass availability, but it can be found without much problems.
If doing a WSM and going 7mm DO NOT do a 7WSM, go 7/300WSM as it's a simple neck down from 300 WSM brass. The original 7WSM has a longer shoulder length and brass is nearly unobtainable and thereby needs to be made and fire formed from 300 WSM (or 270 or 325) whereas the 7/300, you just neck it down.
WSM's throated for a long action don't give up any performance to the WinMag/RemMag cases.
For example I have 2 rifles chambered in 7/300 WSM, my hunting rifle has a 26" barrel and I run 162's out of it at 3100 fps and change without breaking a sweat (I've run them up to 3200 but it's at the pressure limits for sure. (this one is a short action)
My ELR rig is the same chambering on a long action and throated to run 180 class bullets at full case capacity. It has a 30" barrel and runs 180 ELDM's with no pressure issues at 3150 fps. At our elevation it delivers a 180 ELDM at 2229 fps and 1985 ft/lbs @ 1000 yards. It goes transonic at 2550 yards. The only thing in a 30 cal and a standard magnum action that comes close is a 30 Nosler and it's not quite there.
For ballistics and energy on target the big 7's are very tough to beat. That said a 300 Norma is pretty impressive as well, but you're playing with Lapua mag actions in that case.
Great post. I’ve got a 300 WSM and at some point, want to rebarrel with a 26 or 28” Proof.
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