Thinking 1911

[xjtwo]

I messed up and held a Kimber CCII the other day and now I can't get it off my mind. As a newb to 1911's, I was wondering what you guys would recommend as a first?


-J

[smchop]

My experience with them is limited but started just like yours. I had to have a Kimber ultra carry when they first came out. Ok carry piece, bit heavy and bulky in my opinion, but I did not enjoy shooting it. So after sometime I sold it and stayed away from 1911's. Then I picked up a Springfield Operator a few years later. Shooting a full size 1911 is no comparison. Now I cant find anything I like as much. My .02.

[Bailey Guns]

Here's the thing about Kimbers. As a Kimber Master Dealer for over 8 years (I was also on Kimber's Dealer Advisory Board...woo-hoo! Free trip to Vegas every year!) I can tell you from experience you need to be very careful when considering buying a Kimber.

Because nobody buys just one! Almost every customer who stepped up and bought one came back to buy another.

Hell...I just went and bought an SIS Custom at Green Mtn Guns a week or two ago.

Despite the trash talk you hear about them, they're solid pistols and you get a lot of gun for the money. Personally, I really like the Ultra-sized pistols and carry/shoot one frequently. For the person trained in carry of the 1911, I don't think you can find, for the money, a better choice than one of the 4" aluminum framed guns like the Tactical Pro or the Pro CDP. I think the Crimson Carry guns are a great idea but, personally, I'm not too big on lasers. But if you like them, I think the CCII would be a great gun to chose as your first. Because, other than features, a 1911 is pretty much a 1911. Some look prettier than others but underneath all the niceties like checkering, fancy grips, night sights, lasers...still a 1911. Whatever you chose I'm sure you'll love it.

Good luck with your decision.

[Colorado Osprey]

I had older Kimbers, in my opinion they new ones are just massed produced and over priced. (I know a bunch of people will disagree)

There are nicer guns for the money.
Check out here:
http://forum.m1911.org/
(You'll have to join to see pics but not to read posts)
You'll also notice that in each manufactuer's area there is no negative talk allowed, so you'll have to read between the lines there.

My personal prefrence when I still had 1911's is STI



... As a newb to 1911's, I was wondering what you guys would recommend as a first?
As a 1st 1911, I recommend a Springfield 5" Mil-Spec, with good mags like Wilson.
This won't be your last, but the original design in it's full size is also the most reliable. At $700 it won't break the bank either.
Heck, you could buy his and hers at that price.

A large number of Kimber owners after shooting an STI switch to an STI.

[BPTactical]

When Kimber was still a small custom builder they were just incredible pistols. When they went to mass production the quality suffered heavily. The Eclipse II line with the external extractors were a joke. And the worst thing is Kimber basically left the consumer out to dry.
Lately I have worked on some Kimbers that had machine work that looked like it had been done with a broken rock. And the reasons for the work are stupid quality control issues like extractors not being tuned correctly, barrels not fitted/lock up issues and rounds not feeding correctly. Barrel's are not supposed to overhang frame ramps!
Now if this crap was happening with a $500 Taurus or Rock Island ok-You would expect that once in a while. But certainly not from a $1000+ upper teir manufacturer.
One thing that really got to me- The "Custom" Kimbers are just assembly line guns that a technician (not even a 'Smith) assembles and puts goodie parts on.
With other manufactures in that "Upper Echelon" if you order a custom pistol that is exactly what you get. A custom pistol built by a 'Smith. 1 man-1 gun.
Kimber is sort of like Para Ordinance. Way over priced for what you get with about a 25% chance it will have issues.
You can do better than Kimber if you want to spend good cash.
Dan Wesson(CZ) builds a pistol that is far better for less. In a production 1911 you will have a hard time doing better than a Springy Loaded or a Smith and Wesson and they will leave you enough cash left over for a nice holster, beer and dinner.
They are good, solid pistols with a sensible amount of goodies(Full beavertail,Ambi safety, 1 piece guide rod,match bushings etc) and yet stay reliable.

[AR-Tracker]

First look for info on warranty and which manufacturer honers their warranty with no hassel. Some of the better ones like Nighthawk, Ed Brown are excellent but set you back some $. if you are looking for best value and every day shooter go Rock Island, Taurus but service is not going to be your friend. Match shooters deliver to the target reliably every time, Spring Field, Colt. I choose Colt, and you can find them in about any price range and flavor. If you have a problem Colt's Warranty is Excellent they tend to stand behind their product. refinishing free for first year on new guns and many other options. I have heard bad storys about many guns except the very best.

If you are a serious pistol shooter and go 1911 beware fever could set in.

[Troublco]

I have a Springfield Stainless (that I have shamelessly customized to the point that you can't tell it's stainless, since now it's green and black) that I love. I have a Colt Stainless Delta Elite Gold Cup in 10mm, I have a 1911 that was built by a gunsmith friend out of various parts (Essex frame, original 1911 slide, Wichita adjustable sight, etc) that shoots so well it's hard to believe, and I have nearly all the bits and pieces to build a 1911 Bullseye gun from scratch (I've only wanted one of those for about 10 years and the best part will be I built it!). I'm already thinking about my next 1911. And my next Garand. And my next AR, and my next M14, uh, where was I? Oh yeah.

If I didn't have a 1911, but knew what I know now, I would go pick out a Springfield in my price range. Figure out exactly what you want in a 1911, and then find the Springfield closest to that in your price range. The beauty of it is, if there are a few small things that you want but you can't afford right away you can probably get them one at a time and put them on yourself. There's so much available for these guns from places like MidwayUSA and Brownells that if you're slightly mechanically inclined, and don't just go cutting, hammering, and dremeling on these things, there's not a whole lot you can't do. I would make sure that you get one with the slide cut for a dovetail front sight so it's easier to change if you chose, but other than that and maybe the rail for a light you can add a lot of other things later. I wouldn't recommend doing something you're not comfortable with, for example I wouldn't recommend anyone who's not familiar with the lockwork and doesn't have the specialized tools for it trying to do a trigger job! But changing things like the slide release, recoil spring guide, mainspring housing, grips, and similar things are well within most folks' grasp. And there are lots of good books, like the Kuhnhausen manuals, that can instruct you on lots of more involved things. And when you're done, you'll probably have a few tools like gunsmith screwdrivers and such you can use on other projects.

But basically, Springfield's quality is there, their prices are decent, and the guns are where they should be with regard to specs. Kimbers, I agree with those who say the quality isn't what it once was. But if you really want one of those, it would probably work for you.

Just my .02![Pirate]

[welkers]

There is a reason 1911's are so popular and much like the AR15 where you can modify to your hearts content or just be extremely happy with a milspec version out the door.

However, I'd suggest shooting a full size 45 first if you haven't already. A full size 45 is a great starting point. If a compact is for carry purposes you may not enjoy shooting it for fun or training due to the felt recoil. Of course, experience with the caliber and 1911 will help dictate how much a problem that would be.

I can say that after growing up with a full size 1911, Gold Cup Match, Series 70, I have found it extremely difficult to shoot anything other than a 1911. I have tried many different types of pistols over the years, Beretta 96, XD40, HK USP 9mm, Sig SP2022, etc. And none have the feel, grip, trigger or control that I'm looking for.

The next best pistol that I've found to put milage on is the Baby Desert Eagle in 40 S&W. Truly love that pistol.

If you're going compact and not familiar with 1911's you might want to even consider the 9mm. Less recoil, better control = more shots on target and that's the point, right?

Once again, another couple cents on the subject. Best of luck in your search.

[hunter joe]

I had heard a few bad things about the Kimber as well before I bought mine. Was told they malfunction and dont like reloaded ammo. Well, the first day I got mine I put over 500 rounds of reloaded ammo through it without so much as a hickup! It is one of my favorite carry weapons.
Ultra Covert II with crimson trace laser grips.

Keep em clean!!!

[coop68]

from my experince every one has there own opinon on each vendor. i own a 5" fullsize kimber target stainless 2 i have had no problems with it i love it was my first 1911 i only paid around 888.00 for it also bought the .22lr convertion in black i have only shot reloads in it since i got it back in june have put at least 1200 rounds though it. i have herd that kimber came out with some alum frames that wernt ment for more than 3000-5000 rounds since the feed ramp was on the frame and wasent steel and would wear out, just what i herd, but not sure.

my .02, buy what you really want if you can try one out, see if a friend has one. any 1911

[Graves]

3-5k rds?? I guess my cdp expired over 12k rds ago lol.

[coop68]

3-5k rds?? I guess my cdp expired over 12k rds ago lol.

Like i said, just what i herd idk. Based on your post im guess the guy had a lemon or a bad experince and is leaving out the details of what really happend im just saying i herd things too, but it dident stop me from buying a kimber. other than that i love my kimber i plan to buy another!

Thanks for cleaning up that rummor graves! for the guy who started the thread the best of luck on getting a 1911.

[SA Friday]

In 1911/2011's, you get what you pay for. It's really that simple.

1911s with lots of crappy MIM parts bad. 1911s with little to no MIM parts good.

Save your self some future headaches and don't get an ambi-thumb safety on your first 1911, and I would recommend you get a 4 or 5" first.

Bull barrel vs bushing is a difference of weight in the nose of the gun and nothing to do with accuracy or reliability.

The beavertail on the gun does make a difference. Get a high ride beavertail that is fit to the gun. Any other beavertail/grip safety sucks ass.

Everything else is optional and personal preference.

[Graves]

1911s with lots of crappy MIM parts bad. 1911s with little to no MIM parts good.


Although true from a quality stand point, I've seen as many non-mim parts break as I have mim. Now if you're talking hammer/sear/disco. then yeah these are the way to go, especially if you want a nice trigger job to hold. If you plan on going with a nice starter 1911 then there is nothing wrong with going with a mim built gun. If you think you may want to turn it into something it's not by going all non mim later down the road then save yourself some trouble and just buy a nice 1911 the way you want it.

[Irving]

mim? I'd look it up, but I think I'd have a hard time finding anything by searching out of context.

[BPTactical]

mim? I'd look it up, but I think I'd have a hard time finding anything by searching out of context.


Metal Injected Molding.
High quality and close tolerance parts can be manufactured using the MIM process quickly and cheaply.
The problem is, as with any cast part you can get inclusions and other flaws in the casting.
The basic difference between MIM and say investment casting is that with MIM the part is cast with metal powder under pressure and there is a polymer binder in the mix.
Investment casting is with relativlely pure alloys under no pressure-gravity fed molds.

http://www.flomet.com/MIM.asp

MIM works great from a manufactures standpoint. Lots of intricate parts fast with minimal clean up work.
Great for your RC car or blender.
From a firearms point of view not so great.
I scrap MIM parts and in a 1911 only use Ed Brown Hardcore parts. They are machined from tool steel bar stock and I have yet to have a Ed Brown part fail.
I have seen Wilson, Cylinder & Slide and Nighthawk components fail.
If one of my customers is depending on their firearm in a critical situation, failure is not an option

[Irving]

Thanks for the great explanation!

[Birddog1911]

I'm partial to Colt, myself. Hard to go wrong with the original, and they finally realized that they missed the boat on producing pistols with the features that shooters wanted. Kimber, Springfield, and everyone else was making a killing, and Colt came to their senses. Look at their lineup. I picked up my Combat Elite for the same price range as most Kimbers go for, or even less.

You have a lot of research to do. Don't listen to the glock fanboy 1911 haters, they can be perfectly reliable; they just require a higher learning curve. Another thing to keep in mind was that service pistols were perfectly reliable...1911s only became unreliable when we started putting all of that crap on them! Many experienced 1911 owners and carriers went back to a standard guide rod and plunger over full length guide rods...because they're more reliable in many cases.

[Marlin]

I had a plain Jane Springfield.. Wish I hadn't let that one go...

[cowboykjohnson]

Have an older Kimber ultra cdp II with the external extractor and a colt combat elite series 80, the colt is a pile of junk in comparison to the kimber. I have shot more than 4000 rounds through each and the kimber has never had a problem. The colt didn't want to feed anything other than fmjs untill I polished the feed ramp and matched it to the barrel. I do like the colt since it was a graduation gift from my father but I would pick the kimber anyday.

[BPTactical]

The colt didn't want to feed anything other than fmjs untill I polished the feed ramp and matched it to the barrel.

You probably didnt do yourself any favors by matching it. When the barrel is down on the frame as it is during the feed cycle there must be about a 1/32cnd inch space (horizontal) between the barrel and the ramp edge. The frame ramp angle is critical for feeding and the space allows the round to "jump" from the ramp to the throat. If the extractor is adjusted properly and the round just slides up the ramp/throat without that little "jump" it enters the chamber at the wrong angle and can lead to a failure to chamber.

[cowboykjohnson]

I was having that problem before i matched them. Now the gun feeds anything flawlessly and have never had a ftf since... over 2000 rounds.