View Full Version : Sad or funny? "Tolerant San Francisco fed up with dirty, smelly streets"
Martinjmpr
04-30-2018, 16:21
https://www.yahoo.com/news/tolerant-san-francisco-fed-dirty-smelly-streets-193935341.html
SAN FRANCISCO (AP) — Though known for its compassion to the needy, San Francisco may have hit peak saturation with tent camps, stinky urine and trash littering the streets, and the new interim mayor has vowed to do something about it.
In the last few weeks, Mayor Mark Farrell has promised $750,000 to hire more people just to pick up discarded needles and $13 million over the next two years for more heavy duty steam cleaners and pit stop toilets. He also had workers dismantle sprawling homeless tent camps in the city's Mission District.
OK, I shouldn't indulge in the Schadenfruede, but damn, it's hard not to enjoy this. [LOL]
Cause and effect? Chickens coming home to roost? You get what you subsidize?
My question would be: How many homeless camps and piles of feces in the street do there have to be before those astronomical home values start dropping?
To me that's the crazy thing: People still pay exorbitant prices to live there. Still. Even with all this.
You would think in a functioning economy with supply and demand, what would happen is people who have money to spend would choose to spend it elsewhere, lowering demand for housing and a corresponding drop in home values and rental prices.
But apparently that's not what's happening. It's bizarre, how much shit - both figurative and in this case literal - people are willing to put up with to live in a city like SF.
SMDH.
It's more "You reap what you sow." You built this sanctuary city, now deal with the consequences of your failed decision making.
People in California get a steady diet of leftist thinking from the cradle to the grave. They don't even understand why they believe what they believe.
Good. I hope some people from California move here and bring their ideas with them and clean up the homeless camps here. Specifically the one on I-76 coming back into town.
Good. I hope some people from California move here and bring their ideas with them and clean up the homeless camps here. Specifically the one on I-76 coming back into town.
Sometimes it's difficult to tell where the seriousness and the sarcasm begin and end. I imagine that is 'by design'.
I just hope they bring some really nice YETI coolers with them.
I don't mind cleaning up homeless camps. I just don't want more homeless here in order to get there.
asystejs
04-30-2018, 17:13
Ten+ years ago I had to go to the corporate HQ in San Francisco 4 or 5 times a year.
The office building was a four block walk from a BART station, mostly along urine soaked sidewalks.
For a week or so in the summer when the city employee tasked with power washing
that section of sidewalks was, we assumed, on vacation, the stench was overpowering.
I doubt it has gotten better since then.
I don't mind cleaning up homeless camps. I just don't want more homeless here in order to get there.
They had one camp start a tremendous fire that burned several of their overpriced homes. Some of the Hollywood Elite were impacted. You know they just "had to do something".
Bel-Air wrestles with homeless crisis after encampment fire destroys multimillion-dollar homes (http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-bel-air-fire-homeless-20171213-story.html)
I'm sure it will be very public and completely ineffective, as usual.
clodhopper
04-30-2018, 18:00
No where in the article was there any concern or disagreement with spending more money on the problem or a suggestion that there are too many homeless. Just a desire that the city allocate more funds to managing the "side effects" of the homeless better. No suggestion about discouraging homeless people from coming there or evicting current homeless.
Not really much different than the complaints of Coloradoans bitching about potholes to CDOT and the local city entity.
Now, the discussion of whether the residents of SanFran understand financial implications of additional spending is a whole other conversation.
Great-Kazoo
04-30-2018, 18:22
"However, due to the severity of the contamination in San Francisco, Public Works has inherited the problem of washing sidewalks. Nuru estimates that half of his street cleaning budget – about $30 million – goes towards cleaning up feces and needles from homeless encampments and sidewalks."
This is from a news article from san fran. 30 million a year to clean up shitheads shit. wow.
Imagine if that was spent to actually do something.
hollohas
04-30-2018, 20:08
I doubt it has gotten better since then.
I lived there about the same time you were traveling there. We spent 1 year and ten months there.
It's gotten much, MUCH worse.
The wife worked downtown and road the BART in everyday with a few blocks to walk to her office. What were nice, outdoor dining areas during the day turned into cardboard homeless alleys at 8pm every night. What used to just be certain streets or areas with homeless are now city wide almost.
They are urine soaked shitholes all day everyday.
They city has installed open air toilets in the parks. The BART stations are overrun with passed out addicts. I just saw a video that someone recorded as they walked through a BART station. It was literally, every few feet a passed out addict or addicts who were actually in the process of shooting up and would soon be passed out. Urine, syringes and shit everywhere.
If it weren't for the people in business clothes walking to work ignoring it all, you'd assume it was a thrid world country.
JohnnyDrama
04-30-2018, 20:14
https://www.yahoo.com/news/tolerant-san-francisco-fed-dirty-smelly-streets-193935341.html
OK, I shouldn't indulge in the Schadenfruede, but damn, it's hard not to enjoy this. [LOL]
Cause and effect? Chickens coming home to roost? You get what you subsidize?
My question would be: How many homeless camps and piles of feces in the street do there have to be before those astronomical home values start dropping?
To me that's the crazy thing: People still pay exorbitant prices to live there. Still. Even with all this.
You would think in a functioning economy with supply and demand, what would happen is people who have money to spend would choose to spend it elsewhere, lowering demand for housing and a corresponding drop in home values and rental prices.
But apparently that's not what's happening. It's bizarre, how much shit - both figurative and in this case literal - people are willing to put up with to live in a city like SF.
SMDH.
It's an interesting study in economics indeed. Have you checked out anything regarding the Calexit movement lately? It looks like all that shit on the sidewalks may soon hit the fan. Some of the hardcore cool aid drinkers seem to be calling their representatives on the issue while the progressive leadership thinks otherwise....
It's kinda like when economic reality and political philosophy collide....
Bailey Guns
04-30-2018, 20:18
Oh, please, God. I'll be good, I promise. I'll go to church. Please, oh, please let this happen.
CalExit (https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/apr/24/yes-california-secession-campaign-wins-approval-co/)
By Valerie Richardson - The Washington Times - Tuesday, April 24, 2018
The Calexit campaign has won approval to collect signatures again for a ballot initiative aimed at separating California from the union, marking the third such attempt for state secessionists.
Then "The Wall" can just close off CA, too.
Martinjmpr
04-30-2018, 20:55
If it weren't for the people in business clothes walking to work ignoring it all, you'd assume it was a thrid world country.
Gonna have to disagree with you there, based on personal experiences.
I spent 6 months in Haiti in 1995, 3 months in Zimbabwe and almost half a year in Afghanistan, all 3rd world countries.
Haiti was by far the worst. In the main streets of Gonaives they piled garbage into the middle of the street. It was like a garbage divider for traffic. The flies were - I kid you not - at least 1 1/2" long and formed a cloud over the garbage. The smell was indescribable.
Zimbabwe was much cleaner, more functional as a city. But still very poor in most of the city center.
Afghanistan - well, that was a war zone and fortunately located in temperate climes (and I was there in Winter and Spring when it was still cool.)
Not ONCE did I see human feces in the street. Even in Haiti, it seemed like most of the people did their best to stay clean. They might throw food garbage in the streets but they'd never shit there. As for needles, the poor people in Haiti were too poor for drugs, the poor people in Zimbabwe have too much of a passion for order (inherited from the British) to put up with that crap and while a significant portion of the world's opium may come from Afghanistan, shooting up in public is something I can't even imagine an Afghan doing - they'd likely get shot by the local equivalent of the Islamic Morality police or "disappeared" by the local warlords who don't put up with anyone's bad habits but their own.
So I'd have to say if people are shitting and shooting up in the streets, it's not like any 3rd world country that I've been to. Even Haitians can look down their noses at the filthy dirtbags in SF.
hollohas
04-30-2018, 21:25
So I'd have to say if people are shitting and shooting up in the streets, it's not like any 3rd world country that I've been to. Even Haitians can look down their noses at the filthy dirtbags in SF.
Funny. Right after I posted that I even thought to myself "nah, they probably don't even shoot up in 3rd world countries because they can't afford that shit."
OtterbatHellcat
04-30-2018, 22:13
People in California get a steady diet of leftist thinking from the cradle to the grave. They don't even understand why they believe what they believe.
Sir, I just might copy some of that for quoting purposes if you don't mind.....that was fantastic.
I watched based on hollohas' comment. Holy cow, what a shit show. My favorite was one of the comments about the strict smoking ban. How insulting is it for someone to get a speeding ticket? Or a parking ticket? Or code enforcement? I myself, would pretty much do what I wanted. Eff the law.
In the video I watched the mayor said they didn't have jurisdiction on BART property. Does SanFran have weird LE rules? I remember a Christian Slater movie where he inherited a cop beat or something? Surely they could legislate something. Cali is good like that.
Hell, we are tired of it here! Transients shitting, shooting up, leaving trash and being a general nuisance is common place up here. Sadly, there are some that enable this but by and large most are done with it.
Boulder has a $2mil homeless shelter that shuts down in April. Guess where the problem goes? Up the hill.
People in California get a steady diet of leftist thinking from the cradle to the grave. They don't even understand why they believe what they believe.
Sir, I just might copy some of that for quoting purposes if you don't mind.....that was fantastic.Just some background for that statement;
My family is from California. We escaped in the mid '70s. As I got older, I couldn't understand how California adopted many of its stances toward climate change and other political issues. I went back to visit family and was acutely aware of how often the leftist messaging is passed along through media there. It's EVERYWHERE and in a constant stream.
It's an old propaganda technique;
http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20161026-how-liars-create-the-illusion-of-truth
“Repeat a lie often enough and it becomes the truth”, is a law of propaganda often attributed to the Nazi Joseph Goebbels. Among psychologists something like this known as the "illusion of truth" effect.
ETA:
Another way to look at this is to use the frog in a pot analogy:
I was one of the frogs in the pot as the temperature was gradually being turned up. My family moved early in that process so I hopped out of the pot. While I was away, the heat continued to be gradually turned up and the frogs in the pot didn't even notice the change. Meanwhile, I'm living life outside the pot and building my own froggy understanding of 'normal'. I return to the pot many years later and those frogs I left are telling me to hop on into the pot, the water is fine. I jump into the pot, feel the heat, and jump right back out again. Those frogs in the pot will try to convince you that you're the one with the problem. You can't get those frogs in the pot to understand their predicament.
CoGirl303
05-01-2018, 07:20
Hell, we are tired of it here! Transients shitting, shooting up, leaving trash and being a general nuisance is common place up here. Sadly, there are some that enable this but by and large most are done with it.
Boulder has a $2mil homeless shelter that shuts down in April. Guess where the problem goes? Up the hill.
the nice and clean way to deal with that is euthanasia by drug overdose of their choice, but no one has the stones to carry it out because it's "inhumane" and all the bleeding hearts don't like to talk about and discuss things like that or like it when others talk that way.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
StagLefty
05-01-2018, 11:10
the nice and clean way to deal with that is euthanasia by drug overdose of their choice, but no one has the stones to carry it out because it's "inhumane" and all the bleeding hearts don't like to talk about and discuss things like that or like it when others talk that way.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I don't consider myself a "bleeding heart" but I don't consider euthanasia as a problem solver for humans.
Would you also consider this a solution to seniors who have a terminal disease ? If so I'd better be cautious about any contact with you !!!
CoGirl303
05-01-2018, 11:17
I don't consider myself a "bleeding heart" but I don't consider euthanasia as a problem solver for humans.
Would you also consider this a solution to seniors who have a terminal disease ? If so I'd better be cautious about any contact with you !!!
Ummm no. I don't equate having a terminal disease to choosing to be a lowlife useless junkie with a boohoo, the world sucks so I'm gonna shoot up because I can't cope with my problems attitude.
Now if someone who is terminal chooses euthanasia, that's fine. I get and sympathize with not wanting to suffer through your last days.
I dont sympathize with junkies who shoot up and choose not to function and be responsible with the rest of civilized society.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
RblDiver
05-01-2018, 14:40
While I wouldn't necessarily encourage ODing, I do admit to having little sympathy for those that do. People talk about the opioid crisis, and I admit to feeling like it's a problem that will solve itself.
It seems like if an opiod epidemic is something that would solve itself, it wouldn't have developed into an epidemic in the first place, let alone an increasing one.
Chicago opioid deaths year to date: 47
Chicago firearm deaths year to date: 125
1. Does Chicago have an opioid epidemic?
2. Will the firearm deaths be a self-correcting problem?
LA Times: California’s opioid death rate is among the nation’s lowest. Experts aren’t sure why (http://www.latimes.com/health/la-me-ln-california-opioids-20171026-htmlstory.html)
BushMasterBoy
05-01-2018, 16:04
" California’s opioid death rate is among the nation’s lowest. Experts aren’t sure why" California has the wealth & West Virginia does not.
Rucker61
05-01-2018, 16:47
" California’s opioid death rate is among the nation’s lowest. Experts aren’t sure why" California has the wealth & West Virginia does not.
Other sources suggest it's weed. California has had easy access to medical marijuana for year now.
Other sources suggest it's weed. California has had easy access to medical marijuana for year now.
I’m a firm believer that people who want to get high will get high one way or another.
BPTactical
05-01-2018, 17:24
Heroine addiction = self correcting behavioral defect.
Fuck them.
wctriumph
05-01-2018, 17:55
The Wild and Wonderful Whites of West Virginia?
This should be mandatory viewing in grade/ middle school. Maybe.
Plan A.
1. Send all the transients to the border.
2. Give them tools, tents, clothes, and supervision.
3. Build the wall.
Or Plan B.
1. Send them to Mexico’s southern border
2. Let the games begin.
3. “Are you not entertained!”
“Don’t go slow, be careful” Jedi
Aloha_Shooter
05-01-2018, 21:12
Forget euthanasia and forget letting them just "exit". American blood and money paid for California. If they want to leave, they should all emigrate to Europe like good little Socialists. They constantly prattle about how much better Europe and Europeans are anyway ... I'm sure they'd all be welcome in Paris, Cannes, and Amsterdam. [facepalm] The land, its military bases and seaports, and resources belong to the U.S. of A.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsqjdmJ4TIE
CoGirl303
05-02-2018, 08:50
Forget euthanasia and forget letting them just "exit". American blood and money paid for California. If they want to leave, they should all emigrate to Europe like good little Socialists. They constantly prattle about how much better Europe and Europeans are anyway ... I'm sure they'd all be welcome in Paris, Cannes, and Amsterdam. [facepalm] The land, its military bases and seaports, and resources belong to the U.S. of A.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsqjdmJ4TIE
they cant even afford to take care of themselves, how wod they afford to emigrate to Europe?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
By putting up a gofundme and having their ticket cost covered by fed up red staters.
People in California get a steady diet of leftist thinking from the cradle to the grave. They don't even understand why they believe what they believe.
This is spot on. Before I got red-pilled I grew up believing all of the progressive BS without understanding why. Once I was exposed to different ways of thinking and started to question things the house of cards fell down pretty easily. And then being ostracized for failing to adhere to the liberal orthodoxy only accelerated the process.
Oh, please, God. I'll be good, I promise. I'll go to church. Please, oh, please let this happen.
This.
By putting up a gofundme and having their ticket cost covered by fed up red staters.
I got five on it.
Forget euthanasia and forget letting them just "exit". American blood and money paid for California. If they want to leave, they should all emigrate to Europe like good little Socialists. They constantly prattle about how much better Europe and Europeans are anyway ... I'm sure they'd all be welcome in Paris, Cannes, and Amsterdam. [facepalm] The land, its military bases and seaports, and resources belong to the U.S. of A.
Trains would be easier and cheaper. Send the southern libs to Mexico and the northern libs to Canada.
Grant H.
05-02-2018, 09:53
Why is it considered entirely ethical for a pet owner to undertake euthanasia, but entirely unethical for a person to choose it? This one of society's moores is one of the most illogical, and it's not really rooted in *anything*. Forced euthanasia is clearly wrong, but so is forcing someone to be alive who doesn't wish to be - e.g. terminal patient forced to practically be on life support until every last penny of their estate can be eeked out for medical costs. If it's wrong for a pet to do that, why is it conversely "right" to do the opposite, and force Grandpa to suffer against his own will? Where in religious studies does it declare that all interventions possible must be utilized to forcibly keep someone alive?
I'll throw in the same disclaimer as you did. I'm not picking on you in particular, but you touched on a part of this that pisses me off. (Again, CYA with the MODS, not pissed with you, just the general idea)...
Animals aren't humans. They don't have, and don't need/deserve, the same rights as humans.
While I, in general, agree with you that people should be allowed to choose to end it, especially in the case of terminal patients, comparing this to putting an animal down is just wrong. Many on here won't agree with me on this, but some will, God gave Man dominion of the earth, and the beasts of the field.
As for euthanasia of drug addicts... If they do it, either by choice or accident, no great loss in my opinion.
However, forced euthanasia as COGirl suggests, is tantamount to murder.
CoGirl303
05-02-2018, 18:30
I try not to cast my morals upon other people, by far and large. (I'm not picking on you, btw).
Why is it considered entirely ethical for a pet owner to undertake euthanasia, but entirely unethical for a person to choose it? This one of society's moores is one of the most illogical, and it's not really rooted in *anything*. Forced euthanasia is clearly wrong, but so is forcing someone to be alive who doesn't wish to be - e.g. terminal patient forced to practically be on life support until every last penny of their estate can be eeked out for medical costs. If it's wrong for a pet to do that, why is it conversely "right" to do the opposite, and force Grandpa to suffer against his own will? Where in religious studies does it declare that all interventions possible must be utilized to forcibly keep someone alive?
In our generation, we need to be careful not to adapt morals and moores that are merely expected of us "just because", we need to apply some reasoning. We are not that far removed from outright superstition in medicine and bizarre practices premised on the most moronic of assumptions - grandpa got sick because of evil spirits, and he deserves his suffering. That literally was a blink of an eye ago; and those carry-overs have not yet left our society. How many people don't walk under ladders, for instance? [although there is some slim logic to that].
Point being, it's not our place to force decisions upon other people based on how we want the decision to be for ourselves. We don't have the slightest right to dictate their morals when the only affected individual is themselves. I do absolutely agree we need to fight any *push* towards, e.g. recommending euthanasia. But if someone elects it of their own free will, people need to stop shitting all over their choice.
ETA:
https://pics.me.me/deadass-spent-2-hours-doing-project-on-youth-in-asia-2419109.png
https://www.buzzfeed.com/javiermoreno/people-are-loving-this-guys-mistake-on-a-homework-assignment?utm_term=.qfAElP7XD#.ffLb0ORXo
https://www.buzzfeed.com/javiermoreno/people-are-loving-this-guys-mistake-on-a-homework-assignment?utm_term=.qfAElP7XD#.ffLb0ORXo
I find your viewpoint interesting considering you'd have no problem putting all cluster b type personalities on some sort of secluded island away from civilization or worse...yet drug addicts who serve only as a burden to society, causing great amounts of pain and hurt to their loved ones and have no desire to help themselves get a hall pass. (not to mention all the other sanitary issued they create as mentioned in the articles).
Didn't you say society could move forward so much without cluster b's in it...but I guess it couldn't if all the drug addicts were gone...
I get that these are people...humans, and they have a serious problem...but at what point and what cost do we continue to invest in people who only care about bringing their own self-assured destruction to get high? to get their "fix"? regardless of the ones they love and that love them, only for the cycle to continue to repeat itself over and over and over and over.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
hurley842002
05-03-2018, 08:08
Opioids kill 2x as many people as cars or guns now. You don't find me giving a hall pass, you find me cautioning people to never use them and bitch slap the people that offer them for every ailment.
Also, you can't lump "drug addicts" into one category. Many of your transients in San Fransisco may indeed be "drug addicts", but most of the 74,000 dying every year are employed right along side you, maintaining a home and have a family - you don't have a clue which of your coworkers and friends are addicted. Most of the people who are dying in the opiod crisis follow this vector:
1) Injury + debilitating pain
2) Doctor
3) Doctor prescribes opiods
4) They need to stay on opiods for a long time to deal with the pain
a) Some accidentally overdose here, simply by taking too much too soon by accident.
5) The doctor eventually ceases prescription for opiods
6) They go into serious withdrawl + debilitating pain
7) They try to find other sources for pain management
d) They end up with something like Fentanyl that can kill with a sniff of it, or Heroin, which is far stronger than anything in the 70's
You too can easily become a drug addict by beginning with step 1. And unless you've suffered true, debilitating pain for long periods of time, you've got no place to talk. Broadly inferring that "drug addicts" should generally "die" and society improves shows you are as educated on the topic as an African Bushman would be on exotic car repair, but not afraid to show ignorance.
The resulting addiction is caused by doctors. Ensares people who had no desire to ever use drugs in their life. Doctors force the change that leads to an OD; and these people are psychologically normal and treatable.
Contrast that to Cluster-B who have a permanent defect in their prefrontal cortext which prohibits them from ever feeling higher emotion, is untreatable, and is responsible for the majority of all of societys crime and ill's, including drug production and dealing, for that matter, vs the stereotypical typecast black transient drug addict that you must be envisioning the 74,000 annual dead to be.
PS: Most of the people involved in the crisis are not minorities, nor are they "inner city". Time for the stereotypes to end.
You've won an award today. A hulk handed facepalm.
Thanks for posting this, I was prepared to respond to 303 in a fashion that would have likely gotten me a time out, but I set the phone down, and went to bed.
My 26 year old brother fell somewhere on your list up there, unfortunately it cost him his life, all because of a service related injury, that the VA would rather give opioids for, than actually try to fix (surgically).
So no 303girl, you have no idea what you are talking about, and shame on you for thinking you know what the families of addicts are going through.
Grant H.
05-03-2018, 09:23
Thanks for posting this, I was prepared to respond to 303 in a fashion that would have likely gotten me a time out, but I set the phone down, and went to bed.
My 26 year old brother fell somewhere on your list up there, unfortunately it cost him his life, all because of a service related injury, that the VA would rather give opioids for, than actually try to fix (surgically).
So no 303girl, you have no idea what you are talking about, and shame on you for thinking you know what the families of addicts are going through.
I'm sorry for your loss.
Opioids are no joke. I've been put on fentanyl and dilaudid during my hospital trips, and they are powerful substances.
What's even scarier is how easily the doctors prescribe the stuff.
Opioids are indeed a problem. My lifelong best friend got hooked on them after going to the VA following a car wreck. After his prescriptions ran out, he started buying oxycontin on the street. He recognized he had a problem, got no help from the VA, and eventually tried to quit cold turkey. During the withdrawal, he lapsed into a deep depression, and eventually committed suicide. When I had my big bike wreck in 2013, they prescribed 120 Dilaudid when I left the hospital. I ended up taking 5. Part of addiction is psychological, a predisposition to addictive behavior, which is something that doctors should probably take into account before prescribing powerful opioids. Pain management in American medical practice has made a huge pendulum swing in the last 40 years or so from "don't give the patient anything until the pain is unbearable" to "do everything to ensure the patient feels no discomfort". I look at pain as a useful indicator of injury, and therefore choose not to eliminate it, personally. Others may not have the same tolerance, or the constitution to deal with pain. Either way, a cookie cutter approach to medicine doesn't yield optimal results for any patient.
The number of people I am acquainted with that have not been affected in some way by people using drugs can be counted on one hand.
I don't think the homeless situation and drug-abuser situation are so easily extricated from each other; nor do I think that there is one solution.
I wholeheartedly agree that something should be done about the garbage, the filth, the able-bodied that would rather be parasites than prideful; but the issue is that among the riffraff are people that genuinely need help. I think that until the causes are rooted out and addressed, this will continue to spiral out of control.
Until the government removes freedom from citizens, there is little that can legally be done to resolve the "problem."
Arresting people for vagrancy makes almost as much sense as putting debtors into prison until their debts are paid. Finding incentives to encourage desired behaviors and punishments to discourage undesired behaviors, and doing both with solutions that cost less than the original problems are the much sought after prize of public leadership.
CoGirl303
05-03-2018, 14:36
Hall pass for drug addicts? Say what?? My post was essentially advocating the right to suicide/euthanasia - e.g. the biggest right of all, the right to control ones own life. It is indeed off topic from the OP but responding to earlier posts on the same. AFAIK I did not mention drug addicts at all, my post was clearly of intentional suicide.
Chill. Pill.
Opioids kill 2x as many people as cars or guns now. You don't find me giving a hall pass, you find me cautioning people to never use them and bitch slap the people that offer them for every ailment.
Also, you can't lump "drug addicts" into one category. Many of your transients in San Fransisco may indeed be "drug addicts", but most of the 74,000 dying every year are employed right along side you, maintaining a home and have a family - you don't have a clue which of your coworkers and friends are addicted. Most of the people who are dying in the opiod crisis follow this vector:
1) Injury + debilitating pain
2) Doctor
3) Doctor prescribes opiods
4) They need to stay on opiods for a long time to deal with the pain
a) Some accidentally overdose here, simply by taking too much too soon by accident.
5) The doctor eventually ceases prescription for opiods
6) They go into serious withdrawl + debilitating pain
7) They try to find other sources for pain management
d) They end up with something like Fentanyl that can kill with a sniff of it, or Heroin, which is far stronger than anything in the 70's
You too can easily become a drug addict by beginning with step 1. And unless you've suffered true, debilitating pain for long periods of time, you've got no place to talk. Broadly inferring that "drug addicts" should generally "die" and society improves shows you are as educated on the topic as an African Bushman would be on exotic car repair, but not afraid to show ignorance.
The resulting addiction is caused by doctors. Ensares people who had no desire to ever use drugs in their life. Doctors force the change that leads to an OD; and these people are psychologically normal and treatable.
Contrast that to Cluster-B who have a permanent defect in their prefrontal cortext which prohibits them from ever feeling higher emotion, is untreatable, and is responsible for the majority of all of societys crime and ill's, including drug production and dealing, for that matter, vs the stereotypical typecast black transient drug addict that you must be envisioning the 74,000 annual dead to be.
PS: Most of the people involved in the crisis are not minorities, nor are they "inner city". Time for the stereotypes to end.
I'm not so sure there's truly an "opioid crisis" going on. had several surgeries in my adult life and been prescriped oxycodone, hydrocodone and tramadol as the most prevalent, never been hooked or addicted.
How many of these patients don't read the instructions on the bottle and take it as directed? How many think they're supposed to take it till it's gone? I personally know people that do this. If people would take them as directed...many wouldn't get addicted. I'm hard pressed to blame it all on doctors.
After each of my surgeries I maybe took mine for a week or two at most then transitioned over to 800 mg tablets of ibuprofen or naproxen. Narcotics cause constipation and that leads to nasty painful hemmorhoids, which is why I get off them as quick as possible.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I'm not so sure there's truly an "opioid crisis" going on. had several surgeries in my adult life and been prescriped oxycodone, hydrocodone and tramadol as the most prevalent, never been hooked or addicted.
How many of these patients don't read the instructions on the bottle and take it as directed? How many think they're supposed to take it till it's gone? I personally know people that do this. If people would take them as directed...many wouldn't get addicted. I'm hard pressed to blame it all on doctors.
After each of my surgeries I maybe took mine for a week or two at most then transitioned over to 800 mg tablets of ibuprofen or naproxen. Narcotics cause constipation and that leads to nasty painful hemmorhoids, which is why I get off them as quick as possible.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Congratulations!
Your story is one story and not necessarily representative of others. I have met very few people who choose to become addicts and most addicts I've known would do anything, except give up their monkey, to be free.
No simple answers. If there were, we would create more complex problems.
Be safe.
Whatever the disposition is to becoming addicted to opioids, I don't have it (thankfully). I take them for pain. I don't have the convenience of being able to take NSAIDs since they may interfere with my spinal fusion. I have "control issues" and hate the way they make me feel, so I only take them when I have to. Times that I "have to" are things like being able to sleep at night. If you're in so much pain trying to sleep that you can't, not only are you not sleeping, but you're not healing. If I'm awake, I pretty much just deal with it. I've had pain most of my life and don't expect to not have any. My pain management doc told me I wasn't really taking hardly anything compared to most of his patients. A monthly prescription lasts me several months. He didn't have to worry about me....but I was still required to have Narcan on-hand due to the "epidemic".
I also rarely drank alcohol for the same reason, but my current medications don't allow it. Which reminds me, I quit smoking in my early 20s. I decided one day that it was 'no longer fun' and just quit.
...but my wife reminds me regularly that I'm not like "most people".
I can say that being able to get opioids if you need them has become downright painful. The doctors that are willing to prescribe them for pain management require multi-page patient agreements. I remember having to agree to 48 separate clauses (would have been 49 if I were a woman due to pregnancy risk). I had to agree to pill counts and drug testing. I felt like I was being treated like a criminal.
...yet I understand that abusers get scripts from multiple doctors and get them filled at numerous pharmacies.
When I was reading articles about the epidemic, there were statements made that it was easier to find illegal drugs than prescription opioids. I wouldn't know the first thing about finding illegal drugs. That's an entirely different world of which I have no understanding.
Fentanyl on the streets is a big part of the problem, but prescription meds and illegal street drugs all get lumped into "the opioid epidemic".
In further study of the issue, there were some parts of the country where insanely huge quantities of opioids were being sold (like Florida and Kentucky). These were being funneled to the streets by doctors who had turned their backs on the Hippocratic Oath to make some bucks. Because some criminals were selling these legal drugs illegally, we must all be punished. Kind of like law-abiding firearm owners being punished by the acts of criminals.
OtterbatHellcat
05-03-2018, 21:31
had several surgeries in my adult life and been prescriped oxycodone, hydrocodone and tramadol as the most prevalent, never been hooked or addicted.
You could still drive OTR while under these prescriptions, and keep your CDL during the interim?...just curious.
Jeffrey Lebowski
05-04-2018, 06:26
Why is it considered entirely ethical for a pet owner to undertake euthanasia, but entirely unethical for a person to choose it? This one of society's moores is one of the most illogical, and it's not really rooted in *anything*.
It is rooted in religion and religious history. Several of them.
Jeffrey Lebowski
05-04-2018, 06:30
...yet I understand that abusers get scripts from multiple doctors and get them filled at numerous pharmacies.
PDMP should theoretically be helping this.
When I was reading articles about the epidemic, there were statements made that it was easier to find illegal drugs than prescription opioids. I wouldn't know the first thing about finding illegal drugs. That's an entirely different world of which I have no understanding.
Fentanyl on the streets is a big part of the problem, but prescription meds and illegal street drugs all get lumped into "the opioid epidemic".
Yep.
It is easier to get illicit than Rx drugs in some cases. Fentanyl has been very difficult for hospitals to get, but you can easily get heroin adulterated with it.
And, b/c of several of these measures, this is why there are legit strories of grandma going from pain meds to heroin. Truly sad.
Jeffrey Lebowski
05-04-2018, 14:03
Obviously you know there is more to that story than your own interpretation of a translation, of a translation. All of which is easily researched, if one cares to do so.
I try not to cast my morals upon other people, by far and large. (I'm not picking on you, btw).
Why is it considered entirely ethical for a pet owner to undertake euthanasia, but entirely unethical for a person to choose it? This one of society's moores is one of the most illogical, and it's not really rooted in *anything*. Forced euthanasia is clearly wrong, but so is forcing someone to be alive who doesn't wish to be - e.g. terminal patient forced to practically be on life support until every last penny of their estate can be eeked out for medical costs. If it's wrong for a pet to do that, why is it conversely "right" to do the opposite, and force Grandpa to suffer against his own will? Where in religious studies does it declare that all interventions possible must be utilized to forcibly keep someone alive?
In our generation, we need to be careful not to adapt morals and moores that are merely expected of us "just because", we need to apply some reasoning. We are not that far removed from outright superstition in medicine and bizarre practices premised on the most moronic of assumptions - grandpa got sick because of evil spirits, and he deserves his suffering. That literally was a blink of an eye ago; and those carry-overs have not yet left our society. How many people don't walk under ladders, for instance? [although there is some slim logic to that].
Point being, it's not our place to force decisions upon other people based on how we want the decision to be for ourselves. We don't have the slightest right to dictate their morals when the only affected individual is themselves. I do absolutely agree we need to fight any *push* towards, e.g. recommending euthanasia. But if someone elects it of their own free will, people need to stop shitting all over their choice.
ETA:
https://pics.me.me/deadass-spent-2-hours-doing-project-on-youth-in-asia-2419109.png
https://www.buzzfeed.com/javiermoreno/people-are-loving-this-guys-mistake-on-a-homework-assignment?utm_term=.qfAElP7XD#.ffLb0ORXo
https://www.buzzfeed.com/javiermoreno/people-are-loving-this-guys-mistake-on-a-homework-assignment?utm_term=.qfAElP7XD#.ffLb0ORXo
Addressing the bolded:
Why is it ok to eat animals but not people? Because human life != the same thing as animal life. Would you be ok with cannibalism in this country if the meat were "ethically" sourced, i.e., not murder but the terminally ill who choose suicide, a willing participant who was nucking futs and chose to off themselves for their consumer (looking at you, Germany), etc.? Goodness, I hope your rationalism and desire to win the argument won't say yes on that.
As for terminal patients, I don't know what other claimants to the Christianity say specifically -- at least officially. I do know that your bolded comment would be an extreme position and is certainly not that of the Catholic Church. Terminal patients have no obligation to continue treatment, and pain management is encouraged if needed. Especially egregious would be the notion that one must "practically be on life support until every last penny of their estate can be eeked out for medical costs." As for "Where in religious studies does it declare that all interventions possible must be utilized to forcibly keep someone alive?", that too is a red herring.
To that end specifically:
Life Sustaining Procedures: Assisted Suicide and euthanasia are never morally acceptable options, and our care is oriented toward eliminating the demand for these acts that often stem from unrelieved suffering and misguided compassion. Under ordinary circumstances, we are obligated to provide food and water, including medically assisted nutrition and hydration (MANH), until such time as the patient cannot reasonably expect to prolong his or her life through these means. If MANH cannot be assimilated, causes significant physical discomfort or generally becomes unduly burdensome, then it may be declined. However, every effort should be made to safely offer food and liquids that can provide comforting tastes and moisture to the mouth, even if they cannot be fully ingested. While we have a duty to preserve life and use it for the glory of God, at the request of the patient or patient’s appointed guardian, we may reject life prolonging procedures that are insufficiently beneficial or excessively burdensome.
http://dmsci.org/resources/catholic-standards-care%E2%84%A2
Example: I find out in a week that the reason the vision in my left eye has decreased over the past year has not been due to computer use, but a brain tumor pressing on an ocular nerve. It's operable. I should probably look into getting that done. But what if it's inoperable? Must I essentially clean out my wife and kids' future money that they'll need to live on, in order to simply extend the inevitable? Absolutely not. In emotional moments some people do that. It's far more prudent to manage whatever pain, get my affairs in order, and die. I'm going to anyway in such a situation. To do otherwise would likely be a real violation of the virtue of prudence.
Per your other post where you quote SOARS' website:
If you notice in the commandments, there are commandments which qualify with "thy neighbor". There is no such qualifier on the 5th commandment. Suicide IS premeditated murder, and that includes of self.
The "Christians" it references in the Early Church were not Catholics. They were heretics, including Circumcellions, Donatists, and others. This mentality sprung up again in the middle ages with the Cathars.
SOARS' website quoted St. Paul in Acts 20:24. They say he says, “I put no value on my life” and leave it at that. But that results in an interpretive error due to lack of context.
What he said (using KJV here):
21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.
22 And now, behold, I go bound in the spirit unto Jerusalem, not knowing the things that shall befall me there:
23 Save that the Holy Ghost witnesseth in every city, saying that bonds and afflictions abide me.
24 But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.
Acts 20
Douay-Rheims translation is:
[21] Testifying both to Jews and Gentiles penance towards God, and faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. [22] And now, behold, being bound in the spirit, I go to Jerusalem: not knowing the things which shall befall me there: [23] Save that the Holy Ghost in every city witnesseth to me, saying: That bands and afflictions wait for me at Jerusalem. [24] But I fear none of these things, neither do I count my life more precious than myself, so that I may consummate my course and the ministry of the word which I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.
Acts 20
In other words, he was not going to stop doing what he was doing simply because it might get him beaten or even killed. Even more simplified: the mission was more important than his mere physical life, as he believed its fulfillment to be eternally beneficial.
I'm honestly surprised you of all people would simply quote a suicide advocacy site without offering a counter-point or even looking at their claims to sift the agenda from their sources' supposed claims. If that's how you operate, I'll be reading all your "not legal advice" exactly as such despite the "between the lines" *wink wink nudge nudge* nature of it.
As for suicide being a mortal sin, your comments bespeak an ignorance I've even seen in fellow Catholics, including so-called Traditionalists who pride themselves on being "more Catholic than the Pope"(which ain't hard the past few pontificates).
Mortal sin is comprised of 3 parts to be such: grave matter, full knowledge, full intention (requires untainted rationality, which allows consent). Suicide-as-act is grave matter. In order to qualify as mortal sin, it MUST contain all three elements.
Let's look at it from a non-mortal sin perspective:
Jimmy goes to confession. He's got at least imperfect contrition, and gives a good confession. He's absolved. In view of the Catholic Church, and God, Jimmy is in a "state of grace" -- meaning unless he sins mortally and dies before confessing or making an act of perfect contrition, he will be saved upon death. He leaves and goes to dinner. The waitress recognizes him as the jerk who turned her down for prom in high school. Being a loser who hold grduges, she has a lapse in judgement and spikes his Dr. Pepper with LSD. Jimmy finishes his dinner and goes home. A while later, the LSD kicks in. Jimmy doesn't know what's happening but he is starting to trip balls. He hallucinates and due to it comes to the conclusion that he must shoot himself in the head because: 4 is orange and oranges are grown in Florida, and Florida Man is in his apartment taunting him, and if he can get 4 shots off it cancels out orange, and that cancels Florida, and then there's no Florida Man! He gets 1 shot off into his melon. To the outside world, Jimmy committed the mortal sin of suicide. However, he didn't. He couldn't. He committed the act of suicide, but not the sin of it due to lack of ability to consent and thus he had no element of intention as understood by moralists. Jimmy, welcome to eternity good and faithful servant.
Unfortunately, that is not the case in willful acts of suicide which ARE mortal sin.
But there is, at least in the tradition of the Church some hope (note, I said tradition, not Tradition -- T = oral traditional passed on by the Apostles in an extra-Scriptural manner; t = tradition comprises practices, stories, etc., which are post-Apostolic).
I believe it was St. Alphonsous Liguori, or maybe St. John Vianney, who had a woman in his parish whose husband killed himself by jumping off a bridge into a river. Convinced he was in hell, the widow was beside herself. The saint had a vision that between the point of no return of the jump, and his actual death, the man cried out to God for mercy and was given the grace to make an act of perfect contrition. He was in the transitory place of purgatory, but not the hell of the damned. He was saved.
Let's look at the case of my own patron saint, St. Maximilian Kolbe, Auschwitz prisoner #16670. He did not kill himself, but he did expose himself to death for another's life. Some would call that a form of suicide, but that would be a stretching of the term. There was an apparent escape. Being the understanding lot that the Nazis were, the deputy camp commander ordered 10 men to be placed in a starvation bunker in retribution and to discourage escapes. One of the 10 cried out about how his wife and children would never see him again. St. Maximilian stepped forward and asked to take the man's place. He knew full well he would die, perhaps even for that mere act of defiance of stepping out of formation. He was granted his wish. The other man lived. St. Maximilian was the last to die, not by starvation but by an injection of carbolic acid 2 weeks later on 14 August 1941, and was cremated in the ovens the next day. The only first class relics are some hairs one of the Franciscan brothers saved from a haircut he gave him prior to him being sent to Auschwitz. Everything else flew into the wind or was scraped in the trash like so many others. The "escapees" were later found drowned in one of the latrines (read: outhouse pit).
Bailey Guns
05-04-2018, 21:31
I've had some pretty severe pain issues for the past several years. I've been given plenty of opioids. I tend to avoid taking them because, to be honest, they don't really do anything to kill the pain for me. They do alter my mental state to a point I don't focus on, or care about, the pain as much as I would otherwise. I've always considered them "mind-numbers" more than "painkillers". The pain has been getting worse over the past several months and is now to the point that physical activity that requires standing for more than 10 minutes or so pretty much puts me down for the rest of the day.
A few years ago I was given Tramadol like it was free (after another injury). I never took it for the pain because it didn't solve my pain problem. But the pain wasn't allowing me to sleep, and the injury really limited my physical activity, so things were just spiraling out of control. I developed really bad RLS (restless leg syndrome) due to being so inactive and it would drive me batty at night. The only time I'd take the Tramadol was at night because I found it relieved the RLS. I could lay still and not focus on the pain or RLS because it would just kind of shut my mind down for a while...so at least I got some peace, even if I didn't sleep. Fortunately, after my activity picked up again, the RLS went away with time.
I'm gonna have to do something eventually but the docs I've seen can't seem to agree on what "something" is.
I guess I'm fortunate that I don't have an addictive personality for the most part...except for sugar. I swear that stuff is more powerful than any drug and I constantly fight the battle with it.
Seized fentanyl enough to kill 26M people, Nebraska police say (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/seized-fentanyl-enough-to-kill-26m-people-nebraska-police-say/ar-AAxMOID)
Nebraska authorities seized 118 pounds of fentanyl – a highly addictive opiate – during a routine truck stop last month. Nebraska State Patrol said Thursday that the seizure was the largest in the state’s history, and “one of the largest ever in the U.S.”
The quantity was enough to kill more than 26 million people, the Kansas City Star reported.
https://www.inverse.com/article/45237-mussels-puget-sound-opioid-crisis
Every two years, Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife scientists take mussels out of a pristine aquaculture source on Whidbey Island and place them in the more urbanized regions of the Puget Sound. Because mussels are filter feeders, their tissues are a good way to measure pollution of all kinds, including contaminants like cocaine or pharmaceutical drugs. On Thursday, local news reported that a new substance has been found in the mussels: opioids.
The contaminants got into the Puget Sound through discharge from wastewater treatment plants, which filter water from local toilets. When humans ingest opioids, they excrete traces of the drugs in their urine, and even wastewater treatment isn’t enough to get rid of all of it. The trace chemicals are being categorized as “contaminants of emerging concern.”
bellavite1
05-26-2018, 17:18
Your theological argument boils down to premeditated murder of the self, but the original language doesn't cast it that way. When you look into Retzach, like I said, it is also used to describe a lion waiting to ambush a deer. Retzach is not legally justified murder. And it was never, to my knowledge, used to describe suicide, for which they had another word. So while I respect your argument, it is mere argument; and like I said - nowhere in the bible does it say suicide is a mortal sin. by the logic applied, masterbating is equal to adultery with your neighbor because you're not with your spouse. Sorry - not - thelogical twisting to come up with "gotchas" works as well in religion as it does in government. E.g. we are prosecuting you as a drug dealer because you dispensed drugs to yourself. We are prosecuting for distribution of alcohol to a minor, because you were 16, and you clearly distributed it to yourself.
Also, the red herring is e.g. saying I am comparing human life to cannibalism or equating the two. The specific example I provided, animals are treated better than human. By your reasoning, that may make your acceptable position to be less than animals.
You illustrate my points rather well though. And no, I don't advocate for suicide. Your position is common, and say:
1) Someone is diagnosed with a class 4 astrocytoma in their brain. Incurable. No question.
2) In order to not burn in hell alongside the pedophiles, they can only do "pain management" until the bitter end of natural death - which is poorly managed, for the record.
3) If they intentionally take too much pain medication in the throes of the worst and end stages of the disease, they burn in hell alongside the pedophiles.
4) If they do something like get their affairs in order and eat a bullet, they burn in hell alongside the pedophiles; how dare they not have their family suffer alongside them until the bitter end.
Like I said - sure, you can argue theologically all you want, books if you want, construct arguments, go on and on, but the basis in this is not original; it is a creation of adherents. Other creations since have been abhorrent, but we don't act like they are "divine law".
You also claim to have greatly diminished respect for me simply because I do not agree with you that people who contemplate and conduct suicide are as evil as those who rape and molest children and subject to the same "mortal" punishment. Once again, you illustrate my point. If one of your children ever had suicidal idealization, would you want them to seek help ASAP without fear of social ramification, or do you want them to be terrified that dad would forever view them as something less, as someone who contemplates an unforgivable "mortal sin".
If I can't even argue that - 1) people shouldn't commit suicide but 2) it's their right to do so and it's not a "mortal sin" and 3) They should not feel ostracized for seeking help without falling in your and other's graces... shit Houston, we have a problem with our suicide epidemic and it isn't from people like me.
ETA) I'll throw a hiccup out for you too. U.S. airman gets shot down somewhere over arabia, gets taken hostage by Isis. Knows they will soon behead him on camera for political purpose against his country, and where his wife and children can see his death forever available on the internet.
Explain why he should not contemplate, or conduct, suicide, and why he should be condemned to hell if he does. You don't want him to, but by your theological position, the law is the law and he's no better than a kiddo raper in hell.
(Funny, you think the bible would have mentioned the mortal sin of it when it described soldiers doing the historical equivalent of the above situation.. hmmmm)
From an outsider point of view (and it does not get more "outsider" than me on matters of religion), it seems obvious that if one believes in a Supreme Being governing the universe, taking matters in one's hand (be it suicide or contraception) would be akin to try to interfere with God's plan, hence a sin.
I am all for euthanasia and contraception, waaay to many people on this planet, but then again I am not religious...
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.3 Copyright © 2025 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.