Personal Defense Ammo concerns

[porterdavid98]

My good friend and concealed carry instructor supports the belief that for most of us semi-normal people with a CC permit that we should only load our CC weapon with common street available ammo. Never reloads or so called “lethal” personal defense ammo because in a shooting event the legal view becomes more concerned about the intent to kill rather than defend. Meaning, does preloading a CC weapon with ammo by its very nature designed to inflict maximum killing potential shift in a court of law the ability to justify using our concealed weapon? Apparently a popular CC insurance underwriter believes the same thing. Do you agree???


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Mazin]

Personally if I have to use my weapon in a self defense situation I want to know my ammo is the best quality it could possibly be to neutralize the threat. With that being said I use JHP and Let the lawyers do thier job.

[emiller35]

Personally if I have to use my weapon in a self defense situation I want to know my ammo is the best quality it could possibly be to neutralize the threat. With that being said I use JHP and Let the lawyers do thier job.

This.....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[CS1983]

Unfortunately for the argument, "lethal" ammo is designed to open up and engage in energy transference while simultaneously inhibiting pass-through as in the case of something which doesn't mushroom as much (or at all, such as FMJ). This mitigates potential injury to bystanders. If the goal is to defend, that means stopping the threat as soon as possible. We enter here into the principle of double effect -- knowing that death of the assailant is more likely the more one attempts to limit potential of injury to bystanders. Otherwise, "just shoot him in the legs!" would be a valid counter-argument.

And, such ammo IS "commonly street available".

I can see the argument working if perhaps one were to load custom rounds which exceed or otherwise fall outside the boundary of industry standards. I dunno what that would be... perhaps a hollow bullet filled with cyanide or something that releases upon impact.

I'd be more worried about a civil suit in any capacity than JHP/Personal Defense ammo being an actual problem in the criminal courts.

[hurley842002]

In todays litigious society, I can understand your question OP, but to be honest, it seems people overthink the legalities involved with personal defense. I understand that if I have to defend myself with a firearm (or in any fashion for that matter), there is a high probability that my life is going to be turned upside down, that being said, legal ramifications are secondary to ensuring I have the best equipment/ammo available to protect the lives of my loved ones and myself.

ETA: As Cstone said, using what your local PD and or any reputable LE agency uses is a good idea, and is what I do, but more so for the extensive testing and real world effectiveness, than legality aspect.

[cstone]

Find out what ammunition the local or state police are carrying and do likewise.

They are more likely to use that ammunition in a shooting and probably have already done so. They have fired hundreds of thousands of rounds of that ammunition so they have some idea about reliability. They have paid lawyers, many of them prosecutors, who have defended those shootings with that ammunition and have already dealt with any potential liability issues with that ammunition.

When asked the question; why did you shoot the person with that ammunition? At least for the ammunition part of the question you can answer, because that is what our police use to protect themselves and others.

[porterdavid98]

Find out what ammunition the local or state police are carrying and do likewise.

They are more likely to use that ammunition in a shooting and probably have already done so. They have fired hundreds of thousands of rounds of that ammunition so they have some idea about reliability. They have paid lawyers, many of them prosecutors, who have defended those shootings with that ammunition and have already dealt with any potential liability issues with that ammunition.

When asked the question; why did you shoot the person with that ammunition? At least for the ammunition part of the question you can answer, because that is what our police use to protect themselves and others.

Thanks, a very well thought out answer that makes perfect sense. I will do just that.

My question came about because my CC instructor sited a case about someone that Used Hydra-Shok ammo in a shooting situation and the case apparently turned against the CC shooter because of the ammo. Now apparently at least one popular CC insurance underwriter is telling their patrons to NOT load their CC weapon with that type of ammo.

Thanks again


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[newracer]

Hydra-shock is used by many departments.

This topic comes up all the time on many forums. I think as long as you use quality factory manufactured ammunition there is nothing that could be disputed.

[cstone]

Hydra-shock is used by many departments.

This topic comes up all the time on many forums. I think as long as you use quality factory manufactured ammunition there is nothing that could be disputed.

Lawyers are paid to dispute the indisputable. The more indisputable the facts are requires the highest paid lawyers you can find.

You can never make a bad shooting good but there are many ways to make a good shooting bad.

Be safe.

[thvigil11]

Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

Lawyers gonna lawyer it up. I've heard them argue that actually getting a CCW is an act of aggression on part of the defensive shooter. Ain't no way to apply logic to the court system. I'm not one to let fear of the legal system to affect how I live and potentially defend my life.

[Zundfolge]

I think this is one of those overblown concerns. As long as you use commonly available, factory loaded ammo there is little chance that your choice of ammo will become the one thing that gets you in trouble in a self defense shooting. The circumstances of the shoot will be orders of magnitude more important.

If your concern is that an anti-gun prosecutor will try to rake you over the coals for being an evil gun owner, then even shooting someone with a j-frame .38 filled with wad-cutters is as likely to get you in trouble.

I've never seen a case where someone was prosecuted because of the type of ammo chosen in a legitimate SD shooting (outside of someone in some hell hole like New Jersey being raked over the coals for using standard JHPs as a "civilian"), and we've been discussing this ad nauseum in the shooting community for the last 2-3 decades, so if this was a real problem I'm sure there would be a dozen examples to point to.

At most I can see the point in avoiding using hand-loads or one of those "super-extra-deadly" gimmick rounds (like the G2 RIP ammo). But any typical, over the counter JHP should be just fine.

If you're THAT worried about ammo choice getting you in trouble in an SD shooting, then don't carry a gun because carrying a gun means you want to murder brown people. :p

[Doc45]

Are you able to inform us of the case this instructor quoted? I’ve yet to read a case the ammo was focal point of the prosecution. When I left le a looong time ago I still kept the issued ammo in my firearms. Since the improvements in ammo over the last 30 years I’m in the boat of using what local agencies use.

[ChadAmberg]

My good friend and concealed carry instructor supports the belief that for most of us semi-normal people with a CC permit that we should only load our CC weapon with common street available ammo. Never reloads or so called “lethal” personal defense ammo because in a shooting event the legal view becomes more concerned about the intent to kill rather than defend. Meaning, does preloading a CC weapon with ammo by its very nature designed to inflict maximum killing potential shift in a court of law the ability to justify using our concealed weapon? Apparently a popular CC insurance underwriter believes the same thing. Do you agree???


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Remember that if you're involved in a shoot, there will likely be two trials.

The criminal trial, it probably won't be an issue. If it's a good shoot, then it's a good shoot, even if you have reloads or whatever.

The civil trial when you're sued by the shitbag's family because their little shitbag would never hurt nobody, their lawyer's job is to make you look bad. That's where things like reloads, or the babysplatter-2000 self-offense ammo would come into play. The goal there isn't to make you look 100% guilty, but to make you look bad a hundred little ways, enough so that you're found guilty "enough" so that they can pay for their lawyer.