View Full Version : Motorcycle lane splitting
hollohas
05-24-2018, 08:39
Did Colorado change the law for lane splitting? Everyday I see multiple motorcycles lane splitting in rush hour traffic (even when traffic is moving well) Or are the implants just unaware of the law here?
I spent 18 ish months in CA where lane splitting is legal and had seen more than a few accidents as a result of the practice. And that's where drivers are fully aware that bikers are doing it.
Here, drivers aren't used to looking for lane splitters. I sure don't like to see it happening as often as I have recently.
Still not legal here, although various groups keep trying to change that. I'll only split when traffic is at a complete standstill, and only enough to get somewhere where I can stop the bike and let it cool off.
SouthPaw
05-24-2018, 08:47
I wish it was legal here especially when traffic is at a stand still.
The big issue even if legal is guys want to do 80 thru 40mph traffic. As much as i hate Britain, and their crazy lanes on their roadways. If you watch their biker videos, is how its done right.
I mostly would want it for filtering to the front of a stop light especially when you get someone pulled up short 10 feet.
Also just for passing in clear traffic, wide open road but you have 2 tards in douche formation next to each other holding up traffic.
Great-Kazoo
05-24-2018, 09:54
It's not legal ;)
I briefly had a mental lapse in judgement and moved to So Cal in 2010 for a year. Had a class which started at 6pm in Fountain Valley and I lived in Newport Beach on the peninsula. The 405 would be a parking lot. On the bike, with lane splitting, I'd make it there in 25 minutes. In my truck, it would take an hour.
The key, as fitz notes, is not blasting up the opening but going a cautious speed which allows for reaction.
wctriumph
05-24-2018, 11:27
It is not legal in CO. I spent all of my motorcycling years in CA lane splitting and I never saw a single downed bike from the practice. That being said, I have been mistreated by drivers that do not agree with the sensible practice of lane splitting. It should be legal in all 50 states to reduce motorcycle accidents and the injuries that result from inattentive cage drivers.
Zundfolge
05-24-2018, 11:55
I too have noticed more bikes splitting lanes ... I just attributed it to the influx of PRK refugees.
hollohas
05-24-2018, 12:04
It is not legal in CO. I spent all of my motorcycling years in CA lane splitting and I never saw a single downed bike from the practice.
In CA, I witnessed many bikes almost get clobbered while lane splitting, road rage by some of those, a few get minor bumps by side view mirrors, etc, one bike go down and knew another guy that was in a major accident and disabled due to lane splitting and a car not seeing him. All in less than 2 years in the Bay Area.
I agree with folks here. In stopped or crawling traffic, it makes sense. (And I'm pretty sure the proposed bill in CO would have limited it to traffic going 5mph or less and bikes going no more than 10mph over the speed of traffic).
But the vast majority of the time I saw it happening in CA and in CO now, traffic isn't crawling. This morning we were doing 40mph when a bike came splitting down 6th Ave. It's darn near everyday I see it now. That's simply not safe.
On Hwy 36 the RTD buses blast by on the soulder while in heavy traffic. If a big ass bus can do it safely, you'd think it'd be legal for bikes too.
In CA, I witnessed many bikes almost get clobbered while lane splitting, road rage by some of those, a few get minor bumps by side view mirrors, etc, one bike go down and knew another guy that was in a major accident and disabled due to lane splitting and a car not seeing him. All in less than 2 years in the Bay Area.
I agree with folks here. In stopped or crawling traffic, it makes sense. (And I'm pretty sure the proposed bill in CO would have limited it to traffic going 5mph or less and bikes going no more than 10mph over the speed of traffic).
But the vast majority of the time I saw it happening in CA and in CO now, traffic isn't crawling. This morning we were doing 40mph when a bike came splitting down 6th Ave. It's darn near everyday I see it now. That's simply not safe.
On Hwy 36 the RTD buses blast by on the soulder while in heavy traffic. If a big ass bus can do it safely, you'd think it'd be legal for bikes too.
This post and fitz's reflect my sentiments exactly, thanks to you both. Been riding for almost 50 years with 45 of that on the street, just sayin.
One of the most annoying things whether it is slow moving or regular traffic flow. Been a couple of times when I have almost hit one and I do not want that on my conscience. Rules of the road should be the same whether you are in a vehicle, motorcycle or bicycle. It just makes it easier and safer fo everyone.
DenverGP
05-24-2018, 12:41
that result from inattentive cage drivers.
So you complain that "cage drivers" are inattentive with the current laws, and somehow allowing bikes to drive between vehicles where drivers are even less likely to see them would make them safer?
I too have noticed more bikes splitting lanes ... I just attributed it to the influx of PRK refugees.
This is my experience
So you complain that "cage drivers" are inattentive with the current laws, and somehow allowing bikes to drive between vehicles where drivers are even less likely to see them would make them safer?
Safer because lots of bikes end up getting rear ended or turned in front of because the turner is only looking at oncoming truck and not whats behind it.
Even in my big truck people try to merge into me. Cant fix stupid. The safest place for a bike is the head of the pack in traffic. Better visibility of the rider, better ability for rider to avoid road hazards etc. In UK etc with more riders and year round, filtering cuts down on traffic.
If legal, its not like you have to filter, riding theres times id want to, but others I recognize too risky due to whatever factors. Ie i wont change lanes right as we are coming up to a red as thats when people often make sudden changes without looking jockeying for position. You would then filter once traffic stopped. Young idiots despite law will do what you are seeing now and end up splattered. You dont see responsible use of it because its not legal.
...snip...
Young idiots despite law will do what you are seeing now and end up splattered. You dont see responsible use of it because its not legal.
And you won't see responsible use of it if it becomes legal. You will only see more of the same, yet worse.
Right now it's primarily me-first, self-entitled, outta-my-way-I-own-the-road punks that are doing it. Legalize it, and every shit head on a bike will be doing it, thinking they own the road, as well.
Will there be responsible use by some? Sure, just like there is a small percentage of responsible, albeit illegal, lane splitting happening now.
Look up the specific CA statutes that govern it, and you'll find that it is also a highly abused practice there, where it has long been legal.
Disclaimer: I ride. I commute across town on I-70 a good part of the year on my motorcycle. I also hate pretty much EVERYONE else on the road, whether I am on two wheels or four..
Disclaimer: I ride. I commute across town on I-70 a good part of the year on my motorcycle. I also hate pretty much EVERYONE else on the road, whether I am on two wheels or four..
Me too, and yes. [ROFL1]
Me too, and yes. [ROFL1]
^^^^^ And he's a LOT more hard core then me, for sure. [Beer]
Martinjmpr
05-24-2018, 14:50
Well, I ride too but generally not during the work day.
Motorcycling is fun for me and I want it to stay that way. ;)
I also hate pretty much EVERYONE else on the road, whether I am on two wheels or four..
If you're hating on people while you ride you're doing it wrong. [Beer] You gotta enjoy the ride, bro! [Flower]
You gotta stay alive, to enjoy the ride. [Coffee]
And people have no driving skills, etiquette, courtesy or common sense on the roads anymore. It seems that no one is teaching it to them anymore. [Rant2]
Great-Kazoo
05-24-2018, 17:00
Well, I ride too but generally not during the work day.
Motorcycling is fun for me and I want it to stay that way. ;)
If you're hating on people while you ride you're doing it wrong. [Beer] You gotta enjoy the ride, bro! [Flower]
It's hard to enjoy the ride when your head is moving like Linda Blairs. Trying to see who's about to hit their brakes, cross 3 lanes BECAUSE THAT'S MY EXIT AND I'M GOING
You gotta stay alive, to enjoy the ride. [Coffee]
And people have no driving skills, etiquette, courtesy or common sense on the roads anymore. It seems that no one is teaching it to them anymore. [Rant2]
It's been happening a while. I only wore a helmet in inclement weather and during the winter as road conditions permitted, until 15-18 years ago , . Basically a year round rider here.
People in ft collins, along 25 and south to the metro area, as they became even worse on the road, i went from part time to full time skid lid and riding gear.
Due to outside forces i stopped riding 8 yrs ago. At this point in time IF i decided to get back on 2 wheels, it would not happen in this state. Or any other heavily populated one.
I rarely split lanes since i rode baggers and other touring bikes. If an opening presented itself, my goal was to always be ahead of everyone else.
I too have noticed more bikes splitting lanes ... I just attributed it to the influx of PRK refugees.
Maybe it's a self-correcting problem.
Aloha_Shooter
05-25-2018, 07:01
When I went through the MSF course, it was emphasized over and over that my safety was my responsibility.
Saying unconditionally that lane-splitting is "a sensible practice" is just more of the contemporary self-entitled trend of saying "this is sensible/logical/reasonable because it makes things more convenient for me ... to heck with the rest of you."
Lane splitters give ALL drivers/riders one more thing to have to monitor thereby reducing safety for all but most expecially for the rider. If you're on the road, you should be following the rules of the road, not demanding special rules -- that goes for autos, truck, motorcycles, bicycles, etc. I can find very little regarding laws or jurisprudence originating in California that I like or find logical/sensible/reasonable and legalized lane-splitting is no exception.
When I went through the MSF course, it was emphasized over and over that my safety was my responsibility.
Saying unconditionally that lane-splitting is "a sensible practice" is just more of the contemporary self-entitled trend of saying "this is sensible/logical/reasonable because it makes things more convenient for me ... to heck with the rest of you."
Lane splitters give ALL drivers/riders one more thing to have to monitor thereby reducing safety for all but most expecially for the rider. If you're on the road, you should be following the rules of the road, not demanding special rules -- that goes for autos, truck, motorcycles, bicycles, etc. I can find very little regarding laws or jurisprudence originating in California that I like or find logical/sensible/reasonable and legalized lane-splitting is no exception.
Ditto.
Only veterans should be able to split lanes.
Madeinhb
05-25-2018, 07:50
I briefly had a mental lapse in judgement and moved to So Cal in 2010 for a year. Had a class which started at 6pm in Fountain Valley and I lived in Newport Beach on the peninsula. The 405 would be a parking lot. On the bike, with lane splitting, I'd make it there in 25 minutes. In my truck, it would take an hour.
The key, as fitz notes, is not blasting up the opening but going a cautious speed which allows for reaction.
Good ol' Balboa. I loved there for a year when I was a kid before moving to Huntington Beach
Good ol' Balboa. I loved there for a year when I was a kid before moving to Huntington Beach
It was nice. I lived in a studio apt across from the elementary school. Surfing every day that I wanted, riding my bike down to the Wedge to watch bodyboarders get thrashed by 20 foot waves when the swell was right, etc. Were it not for the fact that I was tired of the liberal laws, I'd have stayed indefinitely.
Madeinhb
05-25-2018, 09:10
It was nice. I lived in a studio apt across from the elementary school. Surfing every day that I wanted, riding my bike down to the Wedge to watch bodyboarders get thrashed by 20 foot waves when the swell was right, etc. Were it not for the fact that I was tired of the liberal laws, I'd have stayed indefinitely.
Haha I went to 6th grade at that school. We rented right on the board walk, 2 blocks south. Fun times.
Grant H.
05-25-2018, 13:20
The one argument I can actually agree with FOR lane splitting is air cooled bikes.
Other than that, I don't see a need for it in the slightest, and I agree that it makes that road that much more unsafe for ALL on the road.
Just wait till the trials guys start hopping over vehicles.
deleted post.
Lighten up Francis.
I ride. Been riding for years, both on and off road. When I'm on the bike, I do everything I can to make myself visible. I check lanes visually before changing. I always take an extra second before going through a green light when I'm first on the line. I've seen motorists blast through a red and almost hit a motorcycle. Taking that extra second could save my backside. My stance on "lane splitting" is that it is extremely dangerous for everyone on the road. I was hit & run on October 1st, 1998 on I-25. I had full riding gear on and only suffered a broken collar bone. Automobile drivers as a whole, do NOT look for motorcycles. I've seen cars come right over on a biker riding a loud ass Harley (Loud pipes save lives my ass). I've seen guys on sport bikes riding so carelessly and fast that a motorist changing lanes would likely not see them at first glance.
As it was mentioned earlier in a previous post, I too hate a majority of other motorists on the road because of their poor driving habits in the city. I attribute this to the mass influx of people moving here from just about every other state. As of recent, I've seen more motorcycle riders splitting lanes - at unsafe speeds and without care to other motorists. It's not legal here and for those who do it here and condone it, well...I'll send a "get well" card to you at the hospital because it's only a matter of time before an accident occurs.
OtterbatHellcat
05-26-2018, 08:29
Lighten up Francis.
Yeah,...I could a bit I suppose.
TheSparkens
05-26-2018, 08:36
I have been riding road bikes for a very long time and I go to work in Broomfield from Castle Rock every day. I do this on many roads. I see this almost always in the Denver area, Denver needs to get a team of their bikes out during the day and stop this crap, they don't need to start a chase they just need to get a plate number and issue a ticket via mail and be witness in court. One of the things they also need to enforce and is almost un-enforceable is slow traffic NEEDS TO KEEP RIGHT. If you want to drive the speed limit and below get over and if you stay in the left lane and cant or wont maintain your speed you should get a ticket, after all I will take mine in much the same way for speeding.
theGinsue
05-26-2018, 09:22
When I went through the MSF course, it was emphasized over and over that my safety was my responsibility.
Saying unconditionally that lane-splitting is "a sensible practice" is just more of the contemporary self-entitled trend of saying "this is sensible/logical/reasonable because it makes things more convenient for me ... to heck with the rest of you."
Lane splitters give ALL drivers/riders one more thing to have to monitor thereby reducing safety for all but most expecially for the rider. If you're on the road, you should be following the rules of the road, not demanding special rules -- that goes for autos, truck, motorcycles, bicycles, etc. I can find very little regarding laws or jurisprudence originating in California that I like or find logical/sensible/reasonable and legalized lane-splitting is no exception.
This post perfectly states my take on the situation as well. I despise lane splitting for safety reasons for everyone involved. If CO really wants to consider giving an extra right to motorcyclists to move past traffic in something that isn't considered legal for other vehicles because, well, "motorcycle", then I propose letting them use the shoulder to get around traffic, much like MA does with their "break down lane" usage. This keeps them out from between other vehicles who typically move within a couple feet of each other, gives them a wider field to manuever and reduces the risk to other motorists because they can't be bothered to sit in traffic like everyone else.
Before anyone accuses me of not understanding what it's like to ride let me tell you that I rode for more than 20 years before getting in my first street bike wreck - caused by another driver. That wreck almost ended my life and as such I will never ride in CO again. I had too many close calls leading up to that wreck from folks pulling over on top of me, braking for no reason, etc. I was always a careful and considerate rider and took my safety seriously, but it still caught up to me. Lane splitting it just asking for more risk to everyone involved.
theGinsue
05-26-2018, 09:23
I have been riding road bikes for a very long time and I go to work in Broomfield from Castle Rock every day. I do this on many roads. I see this almost always in the Denver area, Denver needs to get a team of their bikes out during the day and stop this crap, they don't need to start a chase they just need to get a plate number and issue a ticket via mail and be witness in court. One of the things they also need to enforce and is almost un-enforceable is slow traffic NEEDS TO KEEP RIGHT. If you want to drive the speed limit and below get over and if you stay in the left lane and cant or wont maintain your speed you should get a ticket, after all I will take mine in much the same way for speeding.
Amen to all of that.
People driving slow in the wrong lane are dangerous. People matching the speed of vehicles next to them back up traffic which increases the potential for accidents. I'm a bit of a lead foot, but typically only do up to about 5 over on I-25. I'm far from the fastest driver on the road and when I'm not passing, I move my ass over.
I also think more tickets for tail-gating need to be given out. I mean, DAMN, when I can't see your hood out of the rear view window of my little Civic and we're doing 70+ MPH, YOU ARE TOO CLOSE. Give me a freaking chance to get past the vehicle next to me and get moved over. And for those who tail-gate the driver who's essentially parked next to the vehicle in the next lane, it isn't going to make the driver move by you tail-gating them. For those folks, it's one of two things: either they're too wrapped up in themselves to recognize there are other drivers on the road or it's a control thing for them. Either way, tail-gating them won't get you the outcome you desire.
I wish CO had more programs requiring drivers convicted of careless driving (not so much the speeding thing as most everything else) to have to attend driver safety training. It seems the rules of the road are forgotten concepts for many drivers I see these days.
OtterbatHellcat
05-26-2018, 09:28
I don't think lane splitting is a good idea.
YMMV.
Notice how us motorcyclists who have lane split where legal aren't throwing a spandex hissy, like the Lance Armstrong Wannabe crowd would if this were about the stupidity of a bicycling on the road and the absolutely dangerous nature of their presence?
FWIW, my only bike now is a TW200 and it's mechanically prohibitive to ride it on roads where lane splitting would be of any use.
Automobile drivers as a whole, do NOT look for motorcycles. I've seen cars come right over on a biker riding a loud ass Harley (Loud pipes save lives my ass).
It's not just motorcycles. I've wanted to get into riding, but just can't come to terms with drivers today. When they can't see your Chevy Tahoe, they sure can't see your bike. Many drivers are on their phones, and they just happen to be behind the wheel. I've seen drunks do a better job because their primary focus is in actually driving the car.
wctriumph
05-26-2018, 16:30
I love lane splitting. It should be legal in all 50 states. The only problem I ever had was I had to drive a car because of the weather and I started to try and split at the intersection from habit. Stopped just in time straddling two lanes. The Pinto was not going to fit between the pickup and the Caddy.
I love lane splitting. It should be legal in all 50 states. The only problem I ever had was I had to drive a car because of the weather and I started to try and split at the intersection from habit. Stopped just in time straddling two lanes. The Pinto was not going to fit between the pickup and the Caddy.
Well, I know this is BS. Nobody has a working Pinto, let alone one that is roadworthy (unless you're referring to a horse). [ROFL2]
OtterbatHellcat
05-26-2018, 22:56
Not true...there is a guy with an early 70's pinto, lime green and in basically mint condition...that frequents Monaco Bvld going northbound early morning on school days.
I didn't believe it myself until I saw it the second time...and subsequent others.
Not true...there is a guy with an early 70's pinto, lime green and in basically mint condition...that frequents Monaco Bvld going northbound early morning on school days.
I didn't believe it myself until I saw it the second time...and subsequent others.
LOL! That is hilarious! I would've had to do a "double take" had I seen it. Guess the classics never die, even the old bathtub on wheels.
buffalobo
05-27-2018, 07:56
Not true...there is a guy with an early 70's pinto, lime green and in basically mint condition...that frequents Monaco Bvld going northbound early morning on school days.
I didn't believe it myself until I saw it the second time...and subsequent others.I too have seen it on Monaco early morning. Thought maybe I had eaten some bad fish the night before and was just hallucinating from fever.
Great-Kazoo
05-27-2018, 08:29
Not true...there is a guy with an early 70's pinto, lime green and in basically mint condition...that frequents Monaco Bvld going northbound early morning on school days.
I didn't believe it myself until I saw it the second time...and subsequent others.
Was he rolling on Firestone 721's
hollohas
05-27-2018, 09:40
While we're on the topic of motorcycles, let me ask you folks another question. Why do so many bikers ride the center line? I drove Hwy 126 to Decker's and 67 to Woodland Park Yesterday. And 2/3 of the bikers I passed going to other way damn near rode on top of the yellow center line (and some literally did). Is it their way of playing some twisted game of king of the mountain? When I ride, if you were to split a lane into 3rds, I ride in the right most 3rd (on two lane roads). I don't want to risk an incoming car drifting into my lane, even a tiny bit, and hitting me. Especially on curvy mountain roads when drivers are busy looking at the sights.
So what gives? Why do so many ride the yellow center line? I've heard other riders tell me they don't ride in the center of a lane because "that's where the oil is and is slicker" but that's horse shit IMO. Even if that's true, why not the outside of the lane? My goal when riding is to keep as much space between me and other traffic as possible. The outside of the lane is for me.
Got stuck on 285 on Saturday a couple miles past Conifer. Dead stop, guy in the car next to me said he’d been there for almost 25 minutes. If ever there would’ve been a time to split that was it. Nah, turned around instead, took Turkey Creek, went through Evergreen, still had a good ride. Wanted to go to Guanella Pass, haven’t been since it’s been paved-maybe today.
hollohas
05-27-2018, 10:07
Got stuck on 285 on Saturday a couple miles past Conifer. Dead stop, guy in the car next to me said he’d been there for almost 25 minutes.
I got stuck in the tail end of that too. I think there was an accident near the Kum and Go just after it goes down to one lane. Lots of accidents right there.
Was he rolling on Firestone 721's
That pulled up a commercial from memory. Didn't know that was even in there.
http://youtu.be/9YZzYAYjw3I
I drove a '72 Pinto Squire wagon in high school. Was great for camping in the Cascades. Seized the engine going through Raton pass during a cross-country family move back in the early '80s.
As a driver of a vehicle, I know I am mildly horrified when I see a motorcycle driver "threading the needle." I don't trust any other driver on the road, much less some asshat that may decide to throw open his door so he can spit or dump leftover coffee or what have you at a red light. When motorcyclists "spit the lane" in moving traffic, I just grit my teeth and hope for their safety, because you never know when some idiot is going to drift into another lane becaus they're distracted or using a turn signal simply doesn't occur to them.
Sure, you can say that it's on the motorcycle driver because they chose to take that risk...but there's more than one driver involved. I know I would be inconsolable if I were changing lanes and squashed a motorcycle driver who happened to be zipping between cars.
I've lane split to get away from a crazy cager before.
Great-Kazoo
05-27-2018, 11:05
While we're on the topic of motorcycles, let me ask you folks another question. Why do so many bikers ride the center line? I drove Hwy 126 to Decker's and 67 to Woodland Park Yesterday. And 2/3 of the bikers I passed going to other way damn near rode on top of the yellow center line (and some literally did). Is it their way of playing some twisted game of king of the mountain? When I ride, if you were to split a lane into 3rds, I ride in the right most 3rd (on two lane roads). I don't want to risk an incoming car drifting into my lane, even a tiny bit, and hitting me. Especially on curvy mountain roads when drivers are busy looking at the sights.
So what gives? Why do so many ride the yellow center line? I've heard other riders tell me they don't ride in the center of a lane because "that's where the oil is and is slicker" but that's horse shit IMO. Even if that's true, why not the outside of the lane? My goal when riding is to keep as much space between me and other traffic as possible. The outside of the lane is for me.
IMO that's due to their inexperience handling curves, as well as mountain / hilly areas. They have no clue there's probably 1/2 cars doing the same thing in the opposite lane. Not forgetting inexperienced or new pull behind & 5th wheel drivers too.
hollohas
05-27-2018, 11:17
Not forgetting inexperienced or new pull behind & 5th wheel drivers too.
No kidding! There was some sort of Airstream club meeting yesterday. I passed dozens of them from Conifer all the way into WP. Most of them were doing 15-20 under the entire way and more then a few had a hard time maintaining their lane. I was genuinely worried that some rider was going to get hit.
wctriumph
05-27-2018, 11:32
Well, I know this is BS. Nobody has a working Pinto, let alone one that is roadworthy (unless you're referring to a horse). [ROFL2]
This was sometime around 1978, the Pinto was my father's daily driver.
sandman76
05-27-2018, 11:53
One of the scariest things as a rider is when a car in the opposing lane pulls out to pass a bicycle rider.
Notice how us motorcyclists who have lane split where legal aren't throwing a spandex hissy, like the Lance Armstrong Wannabe crowd would if this were about the stupidity of a bicycling on the road and the absolutely dangerous nature of their presence?
FWIW, my only bike now is a TW200 and it's mechanically prohibitive to ride it on roads where lane splitting would be of any use.
Well no one is challenging the right for motorcycles to exist or bragging about running them off the road or smoking them out either.
As a veteran motorcyclist I think that lane splitting is nuts. I chalk it up to the poor judgement of young men's sense of invulnerability and that they haven't yet learned how fragile life and the human body really is. They probably didn't study math and traffic statistics either. While many lane splitting riders may be well skilled, that won't save them when their number is up and the inevitable happens. The consequence of going down on a heavily trafficked highway during rush hour could result in a very painful and lingering life, or death.
I recently watched two riders lane splitting on I-25 north where traffic was doing 15-35 mph stop and go, and the bikers were going 30-40 mph faster than the cars and trucks they were weaving through. I thought to myself, "those stupid motherf..kers are gonna die". Maybe not today, but death awaits those who don't play the survival game seriously.
Although I'd like to, I don't ride anymore. I did ride dirt bikes and road bikes for most of 30 years. Rode my R100RS extensively throughout the western U.S. and Canada, up the Alaska Highway to the Arctic Circle, through the Canadian Rockies seven times, and to Mexico a few times. I also commuted daily throughout the Front Range along I-25, I-70 and I-76 to Brush. I've gone down a few times, without long lasting injury. I'm still here and thankful for it.
I would oppose any measure to legalize lane splitting in CO because it's dangerous for everyone on the road and there is no compelling reason to individuals or the public to accept the risks.
wctriumph
05-27-2018, 20:36
As a veteran (53 years on two wheels this weekend!) motorcyclist that is still alive and riding, I think that lane splitting should be legal in all 50 states. It saves lives. Period.
On the other hand, like all activities that require sound judgement, it can of course help to remove certain people from the breeding pool.
If a rider does not want to split lanes, don't. But don't deprive those of us that want to split lanes from doing so.
I only used it for getting by a line of cars where I would have otherwise been needlessly stop and go. I didn’t weave in flowing traffic. That’s a crotch rocket tactic and not my definition of it.
My understanding is something like a stoplight, riding up the middle and taking off to avoid the stop and go accordion. Or in slow moving traffic, going between cars to keep the bike from overheating.
Perhaps a definition of terms from the naysayers, with examples, would be helpful. I have no idea why anyone would be opposed to it.
GilpinGuy
05-27-2018, 22:03
I think that lane splitting should be legal in all 50 states. It saves lives. Period.
How so?
I used to ride and I get the whole MC thing, but how can splitting lanes be LESS dangerous?
Aloha_Shooter
05-28-2018, 07:36
I only used it for getting by a line of cars where I would have otherwise been needlessly stop and go. I didn’t weave in flowing traffic. That’s a crotch rocket tactic and not my definition of it.
My understanding is something like a stoplight, riding up the middle and taking off to avoid the stop and go accordion. Or in slow moving traffic, going between cars to keep the bike from overheating.
Perhaps a definition of terms from the naysayers, with examples, would be helpful. I have no idea why anyone would be opposed to it.
As I said, more convenient for you (avoiding the stop-and-go that everyone else is stuck in) but more of a burden on everyone to monitor the spaces between vehicles. Calling the weaving between vehicles a crotch rocket tactic and then somehow elevating your own bypass of traffic makes it better?
If your vehicle is in danger of overheating from observing normal rules of the road, perhaps it shouldn't be ON the road in those conditions?
As I said, more convenient for you (avoiding the stop-and-go that everyone else is stuck in) but more of a burden on everyone to monitor the spaces between vehicles. Calling the weaving between vehicles a crotch rocket tactic and then somehow elevating your own bypass of traffic makes it better?
If your vehicle is in danger of overheating from observing normal rules of the road, perhaps it shouldn't be ON the road in those conditions?
^^^This.
Perhaps in Commifornia this is acceptable where lane splitting has been legal for a long time. Trying to implement lane splitting here in Colorado where it has not been legal - ever, is a bad idea. As some people have pointed out, A LOT of the drivers here in the metro area suck. Expecting them to just immediately be like, "Oh, cool, motorcycles can legally split lanes now, soooooo I guess I'll put my cell phone down and really start paying attention to traffic" is completely unrealistic. Between all the road rage and clueless people on the roads here, practicing lane splitting will eventually get you in the hospital or morgue. Not to mention people calling local PD when they see you doing it.
Great-Kazoo
05-28-2018, 07:50
As a veteran (53 years on two wheels this weekend!) motorcyclist that is still alive and riding, I think that lane splitting should be legal in all 50 states. It saves lives. Period.
On the other hand, like all activities that require sound judgement, it can of course help to remove certain people from the breeding pool.
If a rider does not want to split lanes, don't. But don't deprive those of us that want to split lanes from doing so.
I agree. When i was able to split lanes i did it with flashers on as well as flipping the headlamp between Hi-Lo . For some reason people are ingrained when they see flashing lights to pay attention if not give you room to pass.
IMO Like certain types of firearms, if you don't like them don't do it. IF it became law, once again it comes down to ones comfort level.
WE could (once again) substitute AR ownership and use for lane splitting. There are those who like to, those who don't care and those strongly opposed to it.
OtterbatHellcat
05-28-2018, 07:55
I'm noticing some stuff in this thread....interesting.
BladesNBarrels
05-28-2018, 09:06
I agree. When i was able to split lanes i did it with flashers on as well as flipping the headlamp between Hi-Lo . For some reason people are ingrained when they see flashing lights to pay attention if not give you room to pass.
IMO Like certain types of firearms, if you don't like them don't do it. IF it became law, once again it comes down to ones comfort level.
WE could (once again) substitute AR ownership and use for lane splitting. There are those who like to, those who don't care and those strongly opposed to it.
Lane splitting with an AR - interesting mental image
As I said, more convenient for you (avoiding the stop-and-go that everyone else is stuck in) but more of a burden on everyone to monitor the spaces between vehicles. Calling the weaving between vehicles a crotch rocket tactic and then somehow elevating your own bypass of traffic makes it better?
If your vehicle is in danger of overheating from observing normal rules of the road, perhaps it shouldn't be ON the road in those conditions?
The overheating issue can apply to cars as well. HOV lane, when available, was used since in CA motorcycles can use them. Yet, one could make the argument against it. I'm not sure if HOV is allowed for bikes here, since my current bike is unsuitable for any road which would have them (its max is about 60mph).
The issue with high speed weaving in flowing traffic, which is typically a crotch rocket tactic, is indeed dangerous in a way which going up the split of stopped or very slow traffic isn't -- particularly when there really shouldn't be an opportunity for a car to change a lane.
And you assume that "normal rules of the road" do not include lane splitting, when in the legal contexts from whence I draw this experience, they do.
Motorcycles are allowed to use the HOV lanes here in Colorado.
sportbikeco
05-28-2018, 13:20
As I said, more convenient for you (avoiding the stop-and-go that everyone else is stuck in) but more of a burden on everyone to monitor the spaces between vehicles. Calling the weaving between vehicles a crotch rocket tactic and then somehow elevating your own bypass of traffic makes it better?
If your vehicle is in danger of overheating from observing normal rules of the road, perhaps it shouldn't be ON the road in those conditions?
It is a burden to drive normally in a lane or check mirrors before changing lanes ?
Despite the fact that splitting and filtering at lights reduces traffic loads, and rider safety it seems too many people hold this attitude that somehow they are getting cheated or cut in line.
wctriumph
05-28-2018, 15:30
It is a burden to drive normally in a lane or check mirrors before changing lanes ?
Despite the fact that splitting and filtering at lights reduces traffic loads, and rider safety it seems too many people hold this attitude that somehow they are getting cheated or cut in line.
Exactly F'n right. Those drivers are total asshats.
OtterbatHellcat
05-28-2018, 16:24
If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking.
I agree...and I do like the discussion.
It is a burden to drive normally in a lane or check mirrors before changing lanes ?.
Is it a burden for bikers to do the same and ride normally in a lane?
Aloha_Shooter
05-28-2018, 22:21
The overheating issue can apply to cars as well. HOV lane, when available, was used since in CA motorcycles can use them. Yet, one could make the argument against it. I'm not sure if HOV is allowed for bikes here, since my current bike is unsuitable for any road which would have them (its max is about 60mph).
The issue with high speed weaving in flowing traffic, which is typically a crotch rocket tactic, is indeed dangerous in a way which going up the split of stopped or very slow traffic isn't -- particularly when there really shouldn't be an opportunity for a car to change a lane.
And you assume that "normal rules of the road" do not include lane splitting, when in the legal contexts from whence I draw this experience, they do.
There's a reason I said "vehicle" rather than "bike" or "motorcycle". Cars that are prone to overheating when stuck in stalled traffic probably shouldn't be on the road when they're likely to be stuck in said traffic either.
I also said "normal rules of the road" for a reason. If you want to ride that way in Commiepornia, be my guest, it's part of the normal rules of the road there. It's not here. Despite wctriumph's unsupported unconditional statement about lane-splitting saving lives, you are arguing for a behavior that inconveniences and endangers the general public to improve the convenience for a handful of people. Like exceeding the speed limit, there are very likely many scenarios where this is harmless -- but don't try to argue that it makes universal sense because it doesn't.
I like how everyone skims over the point of where filtering works great in Europe. The problem is a cultural one of dogshit drivers. In most Euro countries to get a permit requires much more serious testing and much higher penalties for dumb screw ups.
Its one of the very few things Im envious of Europe on. Meanwhile back in the US we're are plagued with uninsured trash and a huge number of senior citizens that are well past the point of safely driving.
The biggest problem with lane splitting/filtering in the US is that US drivers do every damn thing behind the wheel except drive their fucking cars. Eating, drinking, texting, surfing, reading, shaving, fucking with their radio, digging through their glove box, chasing down that dropped cigarette, putting on makeup, blabbering on the phone. If people would just pay fucking attention, the roads would be a lot safer for everyone.
The biggest problem with lane splitting/filtering in the US is that US drivers do every damn thing behind the wheel except drive their fucking cars. Eating, drinking, texting, surfing, reading, shaving, fucking with their radio, digging through their glove box, chasing down that dropped cigarette, putting on makeup, blabbering on the phone. If people would just pay fucking attention, the roads would be a lot safer for everyone.
/END THREAD
I like how everyone skims over the point of where filtering works great in Europe. The problem is a cultural one of dogshit drivers. In most Euro countries to get a permit requires much more serious testing and much higher penalties for dumb screw ups.
Its one of the very few things Im envious of Europe on. Meanwhile back in the US we're are plagued with uninsured trash and a huge number of senior citizens that are well past the point of safely driving.
You are absolutely correct. It's amazing how a lot of other countries have far more courteous drivers than we do here in the U.S.
The biggest problem with lane splitting/filtering in the US is that US drivers do every damn thing behind the wheel except drive their fucking cars. Eating, drinking, texting, surfing, reading, shaving, fucking with their radio, digging through their glove box, chasing down that dropped cigarette, putting on makeup, blabbering on the phone. If people would just pay fucking attention, the roads would be a lot safer for everyone.
^^^100% THIS
The biggest problem with lane splitting/filtering in the US is that US drivers do every damn thing behind the wheel except drive their fucking cars. Eating, drinking, texting, surfing, reading, shaving, fucking with their radio, digging through their glove box, chasing down that dropped cigarette, putting on makeup, blabbering on the phone. If people would just pay fucking attention, the roads would be a lot safer for everyone.
Quoted for truth.
Great-Kazoo
05-29-2018, 14:01
You are absolutely correct. It's amazing how a lot of other countries have far more courteous drivers than we do here in the U.S.
^^^100% THIS
That's due to more serious penalties for traffic infractions, as well as loss of driving privileges for things like a first time DUI.
The no texting while driving law is another toothless feel good law. Where they get a ticket IF they're pulled over for another violation.
The no texting while driving law is another toothless feel good law. Where they get a ticket IF they're pulled over for another violation.
Even if we had a law making the use of the phone in the vehicle as 'hands-free only', some people just can't drive and hold a conversation at the same time. Either that, or they're driving 35 mph in a 45 at rush hour while talking to their imaginary friend.
I don't understand the texting law. Seems unnecessary since if an officer feels someone is driving inattentively, a carless driving ticket can be issued, which I thought was worse than a texting ticket.
hollohas
05-29-2018, 14:46
I started this post after seeing lane splitting every day in 6th Ave. Nasty looking MC accident on 6th Ave this afternoon. Hope the rider is ok.
I don't understand the texting law. Seems unnecessary since if an officer feels someone is driving inattentively, a carless driving ticket can be issued, which I thought was worse than a texting ticket.
I've so wanted to see some of the idiots during my commutes pulled over and cited for reckless driving, but it never happens. As the old saying goes, there's never a cop around when you need one.
wctriumph
05-29-2018, 17:45
For the uninformed disbelievers:
Aloha_Shooter
05-29-2018, 20:46
For the uninformed disbelievers:
So your substantiation is a poorly done academic study from a state where lane-splitting is part of the norm? By poorly done, I mean their study suffers from self-selection bias (studied only motorcyclists involved in collisions of which 17% were lane-splitting at the time of the accident). In fact, they found a strong correlation between speed differential and injury but otherwise relied on rationales provided by the lane-splitters. One of the rationales cited was a greater ability to distance themselves from traffic clusters but to do this, they actually have to put themselves in closer proximity to other vehicles. The study doesn't even remotely support your unconditional statement that lane-splitting improves safety, period. What does support is that there are situations and conditions where it can be done with a lower risk of serious injury but that's an entirely different premise.
They say "goal of the analysis was to increase our understanding of collisions involving lane-splitting motorcyclists and of how lane-splitting impacts collision injuries". Their study shows that the collision injuries are strongly linked to traffic speed and the speed differential between vehicles but they also state 38% of the splitters only split when traffic was stalled or stop-and-go with another 27% only splititng when traffic was going 20 mph or less. So over half of the accidents they examined with lane-splitters were skewed toward lower injury-type accidents while the other accidents in their study are likely skewed toward higher speeds and speed differentials (being collisions not involving stalled traffic).
If they were serious about proving lane-splitting to be safer unconditionally as you state, they should have looked at the entire population of motorcyclists and examined the differential accident rates between splitters and non-splitters -- in fact, they state "the primary limitation is our lack of exposure data. To estimate how the risk of being involved in a collision changes when motorcyclists chose to lane-split, we would require information on both the lane-splitting and non-lane-splitting riding that is done by some identifiable sample of motorcyclists."
On the bright side, the researchers DO acknowledge "there has been considerable discussion in the motorcycling community that lane-splitting should be done only at lower speed differentials. Many riders advocate for speed differentials of 10, 15, or 20 MPH." As I said before, I am quite sure there are plenty of scenarios and instances where lane-splitting -- like exceeding the posted speed limit -- can be done safely. That doesn't mean I agree with making it legal or normal any more than I would advocate raising the speed limit on I-25 to 150 mph in general. The fact that I can safely drive over 100 mph on an open flat freeway in dry sunny conditions with low congestion doesn't mean driving over 100 mph is generally safer -- which is the analog between this study and your blanket statement.
The no texting while driving law is another toothless feel good law. Where they get a ticket IF they're pulled over for another violation.
I agree. If they made that a primary infraction, police would be writing so many tickets, they would need extra printer cartridges in their cruisers.
bellavite1
05-30-2018, 12:27
For the love of God, enough with statistics!
I have been riding 35 years and most of it in Italy, in the traffic of Rome.
Lane splitting is the norm, nobody waits behind a car at a traffic light, traffic lights are a suggestion rather than an order and on it goes.
Those of you who have been there know what I mean.
In fact I used to ride motorcycles and scooters for a living delivering packages 10 hrs a day.
Knock on wood I still don't know what a broken bone feels like.
It's a combination of riders expecting drivers to do anything at any time and drivers expecting riders to come out of nowhere at any time, in short paying attention and not drive like drones.
People need to wake up when they are driving.
^^^ yep.
The funny thing is if we were to switch all terminology to guns, the naysayers would be as ridiculous as the libtards.
"The study is flawed!" (because it doesn't agree with your histrionic, data-lacking viewpoint?) "It's dangerous!" (um, driving a vehicle in general is dangerous). "there's no point!" (yeah there is: to not contribute to unnecessary traffic stop-n-go, look out for my own safety, and not get rear-ended by the jackass checking up on FB instead of watching the road.)
Filtering simply works. It's not supposed to be a scene out of a Michael Bay film. It's the ability to eliminate placing the rider between the auto-jaws of a car-vice, improve traffic flow, and in general be less of a problem for other drivers. It's a rather slow process as concerns speed, provides much more maneuverability, etc.
For a group of people who supposedly pride themselves on trotting out the simple facts when it comes to other arguments, I'm surprised at the amount of effete, factless, emotionally driven bitching.
Great-Kazoo
05-30-2018, 16:28
For the love of God, enough with statistics!
I have been riding 35 years and most of it in Italy, in the traffic of Rome.
Lane splitting is the norm, nobody waits behind a car at a traffic light, traffic lights are a suggestion rather than an order and on it goes.
Those of you who have been there know what I mean.
In fact I used to ride motorcycles and scooters for a living delivering packages 10 hrs a day.
Knock on wood I still don't know what a broken bone feels like.
It's a combination of riders expecting drivers to do anything at any time and drivers expecting riders to come out of nowhere at any time, in short paying attention and not drive like drones.
People need to wake up when they are driving.
My time in Italy was where cars and trucks came standard with a gas pedal and Horn. The brake pedal was optional.
Middle finger and arm waving were drivers responsibility.
Interesting thing about Italy and other european countries, when it comes to driving . You can have 4 lanes doing the speed limit +, with a traffic circle coming up. Between the cursing, middle fingers, yelling and horns blaring, they still manage to flow through the circle with minimal issues.
Here in the states, you can't get someone to stop for a red light or stop sign, let alone manage to make it round the circle without it becoming a major project.
DenverGP
05-30-2018, 16:44
Some posts make it sound like it's just the "filtering" at stop lights, etc. I don't have an issue with that. But motorcycles splitting lanes in regular moving traffic is asking for irresponsible.
NFATrustGuy
05-30-2018, 19:23
I’ve been riding since I was a little kid—probably right around 45 years of riding. Knock on wood, but I’ve never been in an accident on a street bike. I’ve had many friends and family members try to talk me out of riding on the street because it’s “just not safe.”
Philosophically, I don’t stop doing things just because there’s an element of danger. If I did this, I wouldn’t do many things I do. “Ships are safest in port, but that’s not what ships are for...” and all that.
This being said, I continue to live by the idea that the safest way to ride a motorcycle is to behave like a car. Don’t accelerate quickly. Don’t change lanes quickly. Don’t take turns at twice the speed of the cagers. Deviating from what 99% of the other vehicles on the road are doing adds significant risk of an accident. I feel this philosophy mitigates enough of the danger of riding that I can still justify doing it.
I guess I have libertarian tendencies when it comes to the concept of lane splitting. Go for it if you want to do it, but don’t expect the rest of society to change their ways to accommodate you. I hate it when people smoke in public and I really wish they wouldn’t, but I don’t really support laws against it. I don’t agree with homosexuality, but I don’t think it should be illegal. The corollary is that I also believe business owners should be able to decide for themselves if they’ll allow smoking at their place of business and decide whether to bake a cake celebrating homosexual behavior.
Lane splitting should be legal so long as the motorcyclist accepts all risk associated with the practice. The only way a car driver should be held responsible for a lane splitting accident is if the car driver intentionally caused the accident.
DenverGP
05-30-2018, 21:15
This being said, I continue to live by the idea that the safest way to ride a motorcycle is to behave like a car. Don’t accelerate quickly. Don’t change lanes quickly. Don’t take turns at twice the speed of the cagers. Deviating from what 99% of the other vehicles on the road are doing adds significant risk of an accident.
I see that as a solution to many car vs motorcycle accidents. Drivers (wtf is with the "cager" term?) are familiar with how long a car takes to accelerate, to cover a certain distance, to change lanes, etc. Drivers look back, check the lane, then possibly check ahead of them again, then start moving over. A rapidly manuvering motorcycle will suddenly be in that previously clear spot to change lanes into. I've seen several bad accidents where a car turned left in front of a motorcycle coming the other way. It may have been because the driver didn't see the motorcycle (being smaller and all), or possibly the driver saw it, but assumed it was going the speed limit and that they had time. Or simply the motorcycle being smaller made the driver fail in their estimation of the distance/time they had to complete the turn.
Lane splitting should be legal so long as the motorcyclist accepts all risk associated with the practice. The only way a car driver should be held responsible for a lane splitting accident is if the car driver intentionally caused the accident.
Except that in the real world, it's always one person's word against another, and regardless of who's right/wrong, lawyers can make it everyones problem.
A lot of riders are using go-pros now, some on both helmet and the bike.
One of the great things about a bike is its maneuverability to extricate oneself from situations where the rider thinks an accident is a high potential. For example, when I lived in CA for that year and had a bike which I rode a lot, I would be very aware of drivers' lack of attention. If I saw someone on their phone, I'd split to get ahead of them and put cars between me and them. I'd also use it to filter ahead at stop lights (ease congestion in queuing). I'd also use it when it was stop-n-go, as that also eases queuing -- at least until I could make it over to an HOV lane. I'd use it to then get back over to the exit lane in stop-n-go traffic, easing congestion more.
It's really not the boogeyman practice that some make it out to be. It's a very sensible solution to traffic navigation when the rider is using it to do so properly, and not just be a bellend.
Grant H.
05-30-2018, 22:48
In Europe, and a few other places, I buy that filtering, splitting, etc make a significant difference in traffic.
However, those places all have significantly higher numbers of mopeds, motorcycles, etc than the US. Especially than CO.
Making filtering/splitting out to be some be-all/end-all solution in the US is an extremely myopic view of the situation.
I have also spent time in CA, and the number of folks splitting rationally/safely is the minority. Certainly not the majority. I have watched a motorcycle split past my car, and slam into the fender of a car that was working on changing lanes. Had the moron been paying attention, he would have seen that that car had blocked the gap between the lanes for the past 60 seconds or better. He had every opportunity to not crash, and yet he still did, pretty badly.
You guys wanna guess how much fun it was getting emergency vehicles to that clown? (hint, it sucked)
Grand scheme of things? I don't care if people want to split/filter, that's their choice.
But I expect on the whole, it will end badly for a lot of MC's early on, maybe forever. I already see people talking about a high number of MC deaths... Is more worth a perceived convenience?
Great-Kazoo
05-31-2018, 07:11
I see that as a solution to many car vs motorcycle accidents. Drivers (wtf is with the "cager" term?) are familiar with how long a car takes to accelerate, to cover a certain distance, to change lanes, etc. Drivers look back, check the lane, then possibly check ahead of them again, then start moving over. A rapidly manuvering motorcycle will suddenly be in that previously clear spot to change lanes into. I've seen several bad accidents where a car turned left in front of a motorcycle coming the other way. It may have been because the driver didn't see the motorcycle (being smaller and all), or possibly the driver saw it, but assumed it was going the speed limit and that they had time. Or simply the motorcycle being smaller made the driver fail in their estimation of the distance/time they had to complete the turn.
Except that in the real world, it's always one person's word against another, and regardless of who's right/wrong, lawyers can make it everyones problem.
The red highlighted words are what it comes down to anymore.
As for the other highlighted areas
Not sure where you think this is happening in todays driving reality. The "truth" is unless one is an old school driver who actually follows the guidelines taught in a drivers ed class. Is a MC rider or knows lots of scooter riders, the "average" vehicle operator is too engrossed in their electronic bubble to pay attention, let alone care about anyone else on the road but them self.
One can see it after honking their horn at driver A, who's braking on the road when there's no one in front of them, blows thru the red light or stop sign, then flips you off after their fuck up.
Turning left in front of a mc, has the driver saying "I never or didn't see the motorcycle". When the majority of the time it's they who failed to look before executing a turn, in to oncoming traffic.
Which then goes one step further of being reported after the fact. The motorcyclist wasn't wearing a helmet. Implying that was the cause of death, when it was a 2T vehicle impacting the mc at 20-60+ mph. Always deflecting to some fault other than it being the vehicle operators.
While not wearing protective gear (Riders choice) can factor in to more serious injury, there's some times getting center punched by a 1/2T or even mini van @ 40 mph can punch your ticket. No matter how much gear one wears.
As for the term cager it was coined back when those of us riding mc's were the minority and labelled lots of things, other than another person out enjoying a nice ride
Loose translation
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=cager
.40isthenew.45
05-31-2018, 08:12
technology "solves" all our problems eventually, or is that all bleeding eventually stops?
Ford patents tech to detect lane-splitting motorcyclists
https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/ford-patents-tech-to-detect-lane-splitting-motorcyclists/ar-AAxZn70
(https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/ford-patents-tech-to-detect-lane-splitting-motorcyclists/ar-AAxZn70)
GilpinGuy
05-31-2018, 08:19
The only lane splitting I see up here is d-bags on bicycles splitting a lane 3 or 4 abreast on a winding mountain road and refusing to make room for motor vehicles to safely pass. But I think that might have been discussed before.
I have zero opinion on this thread, just wanted to post this video about good thing this guy didn't filter to the front. Assuming that means what I think it means.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYimlrucN4s
In Europe, and a few other places, I buy that filtering, splitting, etc make a significant difference in traffic.
However, those places all have significantly higher numbers of mopeds, motorcycles, etc than the US. Especially than CO.
Making filtering/splitting out to be some be-all/end-all solution in the US is an extremely myopic view of the situation.
I have also spent time in CA, and the number of folks splitting rationally/safely is the minority. Certainly not the majority. I have watched a motorcycle split past my car, and slam into the fender of a car that was working on changing lanes. Had the moron been paying attention, he would have seen that that car had blocked the gap between the lanes for the past 60 seconds or better. He had every opportunity to not crash, and yet he still did, pretty badly.
You guys wanna guess how much fun it was getting emergency vehicles to that clown? (hint, it sucked)
Grand scheme of things? I don't care if people want to split/filter, that's their choice.
But I expect on the whole, it will end badly for a lot of MC's early on, maybe forever. I already see people talking about a high number of MC deaths... Is more worth a perceived convenience?
Has anyone said it's an end-all/be-all? It's just another tool in a bag of tricks.
Has anyone said it's an end-all/be-all? It's just another tool in a bag of tricks.
Otherwise known as a "Value Added Option" in marketing.
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