View Full Version : Liberal Arts and Literature majors are not the most under employed.
Forbes says that despite the "common" knowledge that Liberal Arts and Literature degrees are worthless, Business, Marketing, and Health services, and education have much higher rates of under employed graduates.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/dereknewton/2018/05/31/its-not-liberal-arts-and-literature-majors-who-are-most-underemployed/
I didn't see a percentage for liberal arts, only a total number. In any event business etc at least has a value and can be under valued/employed. Questionable in liberal arts has a value in the real world. I don't believe in my career that i ever hired a liberal arts major for anything.
Still mostly worthless educations.
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2018/05/30/john-stossel-what-everyones-afraid-to-say-about-college-and-jobs.html
Strictly as a thought exercise, I'm trying to decide if I currently fall into the category of under employed since they didn't really lay out what the parameters are to be considered under employed.
On one hand, I've only ever used my degree to get a job where a degree was required. My current career path has me working in a field that doesn't require college, but I'd a much better job than any of the ones I had that require college.
Personally, I make no distinction between my Liberal Arts degree and a business or marketing degree. I doubt most employers would either.
What's your degree, officially? English?
I wanted to put it out there that I'm not at all trying to defend a liberals arts degree just because I have one. I got my degree because that's what you were supposed to do. I never had any intention of even working in the field of my degree and never even tried. So no one feel like you have to walk on egg shells about this topic or anything.
What's your degree, officially? English?
Someone on here once described it as "made up bullshit that can never be proven by science." In other words, Economics.
Well, this is why they have a thing called "MBA program."
[shithitsfan] [Sarcasm2]
I know there isn't a river so long that it doesn't bend, and never say never and all that, but I don't think I'd ever go back to school, unless it was a trade school or something just for fun.
Aloha_Shooter
05-31-2018, 21:04
A lot of useful degrees fall under the category of "Liberal Arts" and graduates can find jobs doing things OTHER than their college major. Furthermore, one could contend that someone with a degree in Underwater Basketweaving is either unemployed or overemployed, never underemployed, as there isn't much use for that degree. ;-) I can't really comment on their conclusions without knowing what degrees they classed as "liberal arts" or how they determined people were "underemployed".
I also wonder what they mean by underemployed, as I could have made just as much money as a waiter as I was making in corporate America.
I think you'd have made more based on your humor, so long as it was at an establishment that has clientele which appreciate the inappropriate.
Well, apparently I'm no Kathy Griffin.
I also wonder what they mean by underemployed, as I could have made just as much money as a waiter as I was making in corporate America.
"a high percentage of college graduates (43%) were underemployed – initially taking jobs that did not require a college degree"
I constantly encourage those good at video games to skip college and look into equipment operating. Huge shortage and high pay. These new high tech machine require the same hand eye coordination video games require.
I constantly encourage those good at video games to skip college and look into equipment operating. Huge shortage and high pay. These new high tech machine require the same hand eye coordination video games require.
That is actually a great connection.
I know people that play farm simulator, call of duty, and other games, that sit in call centers. Seems like a better practice to be operating a combine....
SuperiorDG
06-01-2018, 06:20
A bachelor degree is meant to, or should be, meant to teach one to learn to learn or process information. Failure to understand this and put it into practice is the reason one is underemployed or unemployed. Back when I was of college age a bachelor degree was valuable, today not so much. Today its a stepping stone to a postgraduate degree. Why would undergraduate colleges encourage self learning if it encourages one to be self sufficient and leave their system?
Forbes says that despite the "common" knowledge that Liberal Arts and Literature degrees are worthless, Business, Marketing, and Health services, and education have much higher rates of under employed graduates.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/dereknewton/2018/05/31/its-not-liberal-arts-and-literature-majors-who-are-most-underemployed/
I'd rather be "under employed" than "unemployed".. ;)
Martinjmpr
06-01-2018, 10:09
IMO the most important thing you can learn in school is to properly speak, read and write the English language. Nothing else is as important as that because if you can't effectively communicate it doesn't matter what else you are good at.
You may be the greatest thinker in the world but if you can't get spelling, grammar, and syntax, and if you can't format a basic essay, people are going to assume you're a dumbass.
Courses that require you to make an argument and then defend it are great because they teach critical thinking. There's nothing like having your pet philosophy mercilessly ripped to shreds in front of you to make you learn how to form an argument.
My undergrad major was history because I've always loved history (dad was a history professor at CSU before he retired and a historian with the Park Service before that.) A good history paper is always an argument: You present your thesis, then you present the evidence that supports that thesis.
It was also great prep for law school since a legal brief is basically the same thing but with in-line citations instead of footnotes.
To sum up, a liberal arts education is not supposed to be "job training" for a specific job. It's supposed to teach you how to think critically, to communicate effectively and to understand how we got to where we are today.
Now, having said that, I agree that the idea that "everybody should go to college" is a silly one, and has resulted in a lot of the problems that people are complaining about today.
I think the biggest problem with higher education is that we seem to have only one "model" of middle class success: Go to college and get a white-collar, middle-management job (i.e. a glorified TPS Report-cover-sheet-putter-onner.)
But not everybody can be a middle manager - somebody has to do the actual WORK. I think it's unfortunate that so many parents in the middle class seem to think that "trade schools" are for lower class drones, not their precious chilluns. Honestly, I now wish I'd taken more shop classes when I was in school. I mean, really, what's a better skill to teach: Calculus or how to weld? I never got past Algebra and I seem to be doing fine, but I'd love to know how to weld, or how to make cabinets, or how to wire a circuit board.
BTW the Bernie Sanders socialist crowd has been pushing "free college for everyone" for years. Back in the old Soviet Union they had pretty much free college education and the result wasn't that people were any "smarter", rather the result was taxi cab drivers with an MA in Art Appreciation or a store clerk with a PhD in Philosophy.
A bachelor degree is meant to, or should be, meant to teach one to learn to learn or process information. Failure to understand this and put it into practice is the reason one is underemployed or unemployed. Back when I was of college age a bachelor degree was valuable, today not so much. Today its a stepping stone to a postgraduate degree. Why would undergraduate colleges encourage self learning if it encourages one to be self sufficient and leave their system?
IMO the most important thing you can learn in school is to properly speak, read and write the English language. Nothing else is as important as that because if you can't effectively communicate it doesn't matter what else you are good at.
You may be the greatest thinker in the world but if you can't get spelling, grammar, and syntax, and if you can't format a basic essay, people are going to assume you're a dumbass.
Courses that require you to make an argument and then defend it are great because they teach critical thinking. There's nothing like having your pet philosophy mercilessly ripped to shreds in front of you to make you learn how to form an argument.
My undergrad major was history because I've always loved history (dad was a history professor at CSU before he retired and a historian with the Park Service before that.) A good history paper is always an argument: You present your thesis, then you present the evidence that supports that thesis.
It was also great prep for law school since a legal brief is basically the same thing but with in-line citations instead of footnotes.
To sum up, a liberal arts education is not supposed to be "job training" for a specific job. It's supposed to teach you how to think critically, to communicate effectively and to understand how we got to where we are today.
Now, having said that, I agree that the idea that "everybody should go to college" is a silly one, and has resulted in a lot of the problems that people are complaining about today.
I think the biggest problem with higher education is that we seem to have only one "model" of middle class success: Go to college and get a white-collar, middle-management job (i.e. a glorified TPS Report-cover-sheet-putter-onner.)
But not everybody can be a middle manager - somebody has to do the actual WORK. I think it's unfortunate that so many parents in the middle class seem to think that "trade schools" are for lower class drones, not their precious chilluns. Honestly, I now wish I'd taken more shop classes when I was in school. I mean, really, what's a better skill to teach: Calculus or how to weld? I never got past Algebra and I seem to be doing fine, but I'd love to know how to weld, or how to make cabinets, or how to wire a circuit board.
BTW the Bernie Sanders socialist crowd has been pushing "free college for everyone" for years. Back in the old Soviet Union they had pretty much free college education and the result wasn't that people were any "smarter", rather the result was taxi cab drivers with an MA in Art Appreciation or a store clerk with a PhD in Philosophy.
It's pretty sad that anyone even has to make these arguments. I'm not picking on you guys, as I don't disagree. From what I remember of college, the first two years was a continuation of high school, then when you started taking classes for your major, you learned more specific skills, but even then a full half the classes were what I would consider to be "filler."
I whole heartedly agree with learning proper use of your language, and how to present and defend a point, and how to learn. Realistically, all that should take one, maybe two semesters AND it should be done by high school. Required courses in college are total BS and just ways to keep you there longer.
I've spent most of the last five to ten years teaching myself practical skills by learning how to maintain all my vehicles, remodel my house, build things, and basically do every thing myself that I possibly can. It didn't take me too long to realize that while I'm naturally good the face to face and customer service skills required for my chosen line of profession, "customer service" isn't really much of a tradeable skill. All that to say that next winter during my next down time, learning to weld is on my to-do list.
Oh yeah, and as for going back to school, that's often touted as a way to increase your earnings, but once you learn to make more money outside of the corporate rat race, it's really not a good way to spend your time or money.
Martinjmpr
06-01-2018, 10:22
I know there isn't a river so long that it doesn't bend, and never say never and all that, but I don't think I'd ever go back to school, unless it was a trade school or something just for fun.
Yeah I'm with you on that. I knew a lot of people who love being the "perpetual student" in college but I couldn't WAIT to get out of school. I felt like my whole life was on hold until I could graduate and find a real job.
If someone is going to school just for job purpose, they should just go to trade school and save money.
Dental school, pharmacy school and med schools are another one that student enroll to become dentist, pharmacist and physician.
Speaking of welding: where can I take evening/weekend welding classes? I can bacon sizzle a muffler together with a little wire welder, but I would really like to learn the art. I have a machine that can do stick, mig, and tig, but would prefer to have a bit of guidance. I don't need to know how to weld a nuclear reactor together or anything, but it would be nice to be able to confidently build a trailer.
Just practice on scrap when you’re bored. That and some YouTube videos should get you dialed in unless you plan on becoming certified and making a career out of it.
In the long haul breathing that stuff in regularly can make you goofy. All of our seasoned pipeline welders are pretty goofy. I assume it’s from breathing the fumes.
Speaking of college and welding, I took a welding class in college. I liked the oxy-acetylene portion of the class, but never could get used to starting blind with stick welding. That, and I don't care much for being that close to electricity. Any arcs I was producing prior to that class were unintentional and a 'bad thing'.
What passes for a degree these days, and the cost at which someone has to pay for it, is a shame. I dropped out after switching majors multiple times and while my cohorts were unable to find jobs with their degrees (and no experience) during the late '80s. I went the hard work and experience route and it worked out well for me, but it's probably not for everyone. I've had a desire to just get a degree to take that question off the table, but at my age and after being a pro with experience over the past 25+ years, I'd likely never make that money back. I'd be better off putting those dollars into my retirement.
Martinjmpr
06-04-2018, 10:21
I think the value of a bachelor's degree has gone down, but the catch 22 is that because there are so many people out there WITH their (worthless) BA's, many jobs put that as a minimum requirement, which means if you don't have one, you're screwed.
My older brother is one of the smartest, most well read people I know. But he was largely self taught and never finished college. He worked a job - essentially as an accountant, though obviously not licensed, running a pretty significant box office (DCPA) and they were fine with his lack of credentials.
Then...the big economic crash cost him his job in 2012 and he had a hell of a time getting a new one. Being over 50 and having no formal degree meant that many of the jobs he applied for (and was more than qualified to do) wouldn't even consider him, while a wet-behind-the-ears 20-something with a BA WOULD be considered.
My brother finally got a decent job working for IBM but it was tough going for a while and I know that the lack of a degree was one of his biggest obstacles. And that kind of sucks because right now there are lots of people in college wasting their time and our money (through taxpayer-subzidized loans and grants) who would probably be much better off if they were out in "the world" living real life.
If I was the King of the Universe, nobody would be allowed to go to college until they had been out in the world (i.e., out of high school and working, serving in the military, with the peace corps, on a merchant ship, etc) for at least two years. I didn't finish college until I was in my late 30's and by then I had served over 10 years in the Army and been around the world, which meant that I got a lot more out of my education than if I had gone when I was 18.
And really, if it hadn't been my intent to go to law school, I likely would never have finished college anyway (though I'm glad I did.) College isn't for everybody, and not everybody can benefit from it.
Speaking of college and welding, I took a welding class in college. I liked the oxy-acetylene portion of the class, but never could get used to starting blind with stick welding. That, and I don't care much for being that close to electricity. Any arcs I was producing prior to that class were unintentional and a 'bad thing'.
What passes for a degree these days, and the cost at which someone has to pay for it, is a shame. I dropped out after switching majors multiple times and while my cohorts were unable to find jobs with their degrees (and no experience) during the late '80s. I went the hard work and experience route and it worked out well for me, but it's probably not for everyone. I've had a desire to just get a degree to take that question off the table, but at my age and after being a pro with experience over the past 25+ years, I'd likely never make that money back. I'd be better off putting those dollars into my retirement.
After only two weeks in a required English course full of other people who don't need it but are required, or people who somehow still need it in their 20's, you'll start to question all your life decisions. Starting with, "WTF am I even doing in here?" haha
Lex_Luthor
06-04-2018, 10:27
I spent 4 years & roughly $70,000 (still paying for it, obviously) to find out I didn't want to live my life out of a suitcase. International Business SEEMED like a really great career choice to a high school junior. But along the way, I learned some valuable lessons, as well as developed fluency in Spanish, which have paid off later in life.
My current career most of the time doesn't demand a degree, but I feel like mine might have helped to an extent. I feel like I might have benefited more from military service instead of college, when it comes to real-life problems like interest rates and mortgages.
Glad I can at least serve my community if I didn't elect to serve my country.
After only two weeks in a required English course full of other people who don't need it but are required, or people who somehow still need it in their 20's, you'll start to question all your life decisions. Starting with, "WTF am I even doing in here?" haha
It's funny you mention the "WTF am I even doing in here?" comment. I was laying in my bunk in the dorm listening to Pink Floyd - The Wall. I was listening to Comfortably Numb...and a chill ran up my spine. It was my "WTF am I doing here?" moment.
Yeah wait till your a grown adult surrounded by kids who don't even want to be there.
Yeah wait till your a grown adult surrounded by kids who don't even want to be there.
At least I now understand 'the game' that is getting a degree. I was totally disillusioned in my youth. There were some good things I learned just from the experience, but that didn't show up on the transcript.
I think I would have a harder time with the academia telling me about the 'real world' from which they've totally isolated themselves against.
ETA: I'd also have to be realistic and admit that the older I get the less I filter my responses to certain situations. I'm sure I'd trigger just about everyone that parades around their significance (feels/self-esteem/entitlement) in the grand scheme of life.
Vic Tory
06-05-2018, 13:33
IMO the most important thing you can learn in school is to properly speak, read and write the English language. Nothing else is as important as that because if you can't effectively communicate it doesn't matter what else you are good at. <Snip>
Snipped it. But the whole thing is excellent.
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