View Full Version : Uber shooting on I-25
.455_Hunter
06-01-2018, 10:55
This could be interesting...
http://www.9news.com/article/news/crime/police-uber-driver-fatally-shot-passenger-on-i-25/73-560535320
The media is having a hard time separating Uber "policy" on weapons from what is "legal".
Sounds like a probable self-defense case given the non-committal information from the PD and DA.
Zundfolge
06-01-2018, 11:36
Ya know, technically the Uber policy against weapons IS the law because its part of an EULA. Any violation of an EULA can technically become a violation of law under the DMCA.
(not a lawyer ... I expect the legal beagles to come out here and tell me I'm wrong ... who knows, maybe I am)
BushMasterBoy
06-01-2018, 11:40
I'm not real fond of rap music either...
.455_Hunter
06-01-2018, 11:51
For the website...
Uber Firearms Prohibition Policy
Our goal is to ensure that everyone has a safe and reliable ride. That's why Uber prohibits riders and drivers from carrying firearms of any kind in a vehicle while using our app.*
Anyone who violates this policy may lose access to Uber.
* To the extent permitted by applicable law.
Sounds like the "punishment" is that you "may" lose access to Uber (but given firearms law in CO with vehicle rights, who knows if they could actually do even that).
Sounds just like every other job. Get caught with gun, lose job, go get a different job.
Have to use gun, lose job, be thankful you only lost a job instead of your life, go get different job.
That would explain the email I got about I-25 being closed at University for a police investigation.
.455_Hunter
06-01-2018, 13:00
More mumbo jumbo...
https://www.9news.com/video/news/local/uber-driver-involved-in-shooting-had-concealed-carry-permit/73-8147272
I love how they say "Uber prohibits..."
BPTactical
06-01-2018, 13:15
Why would you:
A- Allow a complete stranger in your vehicle?
B- Get into a vehicle with a complete stranger?
And don't give me the "Well its the same if you get into a Taxi, airplane, bus, train etc.." line
It isn't the same
.455_Hunter
06-01-2018, 13:20
Why would you:
A- Allow a complete stranger in your vehicle?
B- Get into a vehicle with a complete stranger?
And don't give me the "Well its the same if you get into a Taxi, airplane, bus, train etc.." line
It isn't the same
I agree. I have used Uber once, and that when the repair shop called one for me to take a 5 minute ride back to my office in the middle of the day. And guess what, I violated their weapons policy...
Why would you:
A- Allow a complete stranger in your vehicle?
B- Get into a vehicle with a complete stranger?
And don't give me the "Well its the same if you get into a Taxi, airplane, bus, train etc.." line
It isn't the same
Why is it different?
.455_Hunter
06-01-2018, 13:31
https://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/local-news/police-uber-driver-shoots-kills-passenger-on-denver-interstate
Hum- now 1st degree murder charges? The plot thickens.
https://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/local-news/police-uber-driver-shoots-kills-passenger-on-denver-interstate
Hum- now 1st degree murder charges? The plot thickens.
Isn't that standard procedure of some kind if they want to hold someone during the initial investigation?
"Denver police identified the driver who is accused in the shooting as Michael Hancock, 29, and said he was arrested for investigation on first-degree murder charges."
BPTactical
06-01-2018, 16:03
Why is it different?
Bonafide business's with PUC licenses/permits, bonded, insured, drug tested driver/operators, DOT regulated etc.
Its different
BushMasterBoy
06-01-2018, 16:12
Probably was a car jacker
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCV0U0Qqzak
Autopsy on the guy who got shot.
Was the pax drunk or under the influence?
Was the pax had history?
Phone record and/or history?
Too early to tell who did what. Need more info on guy who got shot.
Autopsy on the guy who got shot.
Was the pax drunk or under the influence?
Was the pax had history?
Phone record and/or history?
Too early to tell who did what. Need more info on guy who got shot.
That time of morning, my money is on a drunk fare. Channel 9 said the driver is a youth counselor, college student, works multiple jobs and have kids. Also a CCW permit holder. And the reports on his interaction with a witness and DPD, he knows what to do. Going to follow this incident.
Bonafide business's with PUC licenses/permits, bonded, insured, drug tested driver/operators, DOT regulated etc.
Its different
So sounds like pretty much the same. Full time Uber drivers have those same requirements. Part time drivers are supposed to get an endorsement on their personal insurance (which not many carriers provide) or get insurance through Uber. I'm sure it's much like pizza delivery drivers where they are supposed to have insurance, but whether they do or not could be up in the air. Getting into the car with a taxi driver is still getting into the car with a stranger. As we've established thousands of times on this website already, laws don't stop criminals from doing criminal things.
.455_Hunter
06-01-2018, 17:46
That time of morning, my money is on a drunk fare. Channel 9 said the driver is a youth counselor, college student, works multiple jobs and have kids. Also a CCW permit holder. And the reports on his interaction with a witness and DPD, he knows what to do. Going to follow this incident.
Yup. The fact that he was technically arrested at 8:00 am after declining to speak to police without his lawyer should not automatically be reflective on his guilt or innocence. The big city police are not going to let you immediately walk without overwhelming evidence of self-defense- even then it would be doubtful. More info should come out soon.
The guy who got shot has same first and last name as my former boss. No, he is NOT my former boss.
http://kdvr.com/2018/06/01/victim-in-uber-shooting-leaves-behind-wife-and-child/
The guy who got shot has same first and last name as my former boss. No, he is NOT my former boss.
http://kdvr.com/2018/06/01/victim-in-uber-shooting-leaves-behind-wife-and-child/
10 casings found along the freeway. Driver must have been shooting from out side the vehicle. It will be interesting to hear all the facts once they come out.
That time of morning, my money is on a drunk fare. Channel 9 said the driver is a youth counselor, college student, works multiple jobs and have kids. Also a CCW permit holder. And the reports on his interaction with a witness and DPD, he knows what to do. Going to follow this incident.
10 casings found along the freeway. Driver must have been shooting from out side the vehicle. It will be interesting to hear all the facts once they come out.
The casing outside doesn't look too good but if driver was attacked while getting out of vehicle, the driver have every rights to defend himself. I am going to follow this closely.
As KS63 said, there are so many weird stuff going on around that area around 11pm to 3am. Ive seen it all. Motorcycle self crashes into median (~100yd away from dever district office), unpaid cab faire. Drunks getting into random vehicle thinking it is their Uber rides (years back).
Lots and lots of drunks.
10 casings found along the freeway. Driver must have been shooting from out side the vehicle. It will be interesting to hear all the facts once they come out.
Also says a trail of blood was found.. if the victim was still inside the car the blood had to have been from the driver?
Will1776
06-01-2018, 22:02
Right next to my campus (DU) and real close to my buddy's dorm :eek:
Also says a trail of blood was found.. if the victim was still inside the car the blood had to have been from the driver?
Yeah, I thought that could be from exit wounds if the vehicle was still moving. Of course if the car was stopped and the driver was firing from outside the car, that theory goes to crap. But I really don't know. Just find these 2 things interesting. Hopefully members with a law enforcement background can make sense of it.
From what photos and reports that I have seen, here is what I gathered:
At some point, driver pulls over on I25 on the University overpass.
Driver exits vehicle quickly, leaving car in drive.
Shots fired.
Car rolls in drive until it hits wall.
Someone happens upon dead guy in car and calls 911 (person is otherwise not involved)
First responders
Arrest
**** the situation leading up to the shooting will determine fault. 10 rounds sounds extreme, but, was the other party armed? What caused the escalation?
Murder 1, initially, seems a bit much. It sounds like it would be difficult to convict on that charge, seeing what we can at this point.
We shall see. All facts have not been published.
A lot of the information that’s being reported makes me question the actual reporting itself. We all know how shitty a job these hack reporters do early in an investigation.
BTW as for Tin foil hat guys:
Michael Hancock is not related to Mayor Hancock.
Hyun-soo Kim is not related to Kim,Jong Un.
This shooting didn't happened because Dara Khosrowshahi (CEO of Uber) has Iranian last name.
[Shake]
Stu_Padaso
06-02-2018, 02:29
Innocent till proven Guilty my ass
From what photos and reports that I have seen, here is what I gathered:
At some point, driver pulls over on I25 on the University overpass.
Driver exits vehicle quickly, leaving car in drive.
Shots fired.
Car rolls in drive until it hits wall.
Someone happens upon dead guy in car and calls 911 (person is otherwise not involved)
First responders
Arrest
**** the situation leading up to the shooting will determine fault. 10 rounds sounds extreme, but, was the other party armed? What caused the escalation?
Murder 1, initially, seems a bit much. It sounds like it would be difficult to convict on that charge, seeing what we can at this point.
We shall see. All facts have not been published.
10 rounds is the typical police response whenever they pull out a gun and use it, and any training I have ever been involved in you are told to shoot until you know the threat has been eliminated so I'm not judging on 10 rounds.
Whether it's Uber or a cab, picking up a ride at 3:00 am has got to have an elevated level of risk for the driver involved.
As for being charged, he has been charged under "investigation of 1st degree murder", he has not been arrested for 1st degree murder, big difference. This is a way for the police to hold him until their initial investigation is able to deduce what the events were and whether or not the investigation continues. I'm guessing he was attacked by a drunk/crazy rider, hit the brakes, jumped out when he could as he was firing and the car rolling into the wall. The other driver was probably behind him or came upon the scene just as it ended.
10 rounds fired sounds restrained to me.
I can’t help but wonder if how the driver looked/was dressed will play into public opinion/or affected arresting/responding officers decisions.
Casings outside *could* be due to open windows, and the fact it was a .40 Short and Weak, which can have fairly decent ejection.
Blood trail is curious.
I hope the truth is found out, and justice served, either in the form of a release with no charges, or the death penalty if found guilty.
10 rounds seems about right. Especially if he went for a cell phone. If he hit the guy twice, he might have a future in California law enforcement. My gut is the driver was probably defending himself.
A lot of the information that’s being reported makes me question the actual reporting itself. We all know how shitty a job these hack reporters do early in an investigation.
Lots of missing info for a front page story. Agree. All too eager to report the charges though.
Either way this goes down it illustrates the failure of Uber's (and all others') gun-free zone bullshit. Either the driver had a legitimate use of force which shows how wrong gun-free policies are (security vacuum). Or the driver is a murderer which shows he didn't really care about the gun-free policy. No matter the result, the policy failed and the folks behind it have zero personal accountability--I'm 100% sure Uber will catch a civil case over this.
I've used Uber for about four years now in multiple cities, mostly because I'm Irish, and never had a problem. I have *felt* safer in most Ubers than I did in taxis in the 90s, and that goes for all cities I've been to. I'm still surprised I survived a few of the Super Shuttle rides from Pendleton to San Diego!!!
A couple of times I was pooled with questionable Uber riders but nothing over the top. The drivers tend to get booted if their ratings fall below a certain threshold (I've read it's 4.7/5). This doesn't mean the system is foolproof by any means.
I think Uber has opened up for hire to free market principals which I support. Drivers get to pick their hours/trips. Riders get to pick their fares and have another option that introduces competition.
68Charger
06-02-2018, 10:01
I'll just leave this here...
http://www.whosdrivingyou.org/rideshare-incidents
Nothing in life is 100% safe... taking an Uber could be less dangerous than other choices in certain situations...
You'd likely be safer to avoid those situations, but being safe may not be one's primary life goal... safe = boring to a lot of people.
I browsed the list of deaths, and it is including times someone murdered a person, and also happened to be an Uber driver, but not at the same time.
68Charger
06-02-2018, 13:03
I browsed the list of deaths, and it is including times someone murdered a person, and also happened to be an Uber driver, but not at the same time.
Yes, I noticed that... does it make it ok if they only murder people on their own time?
Wouldn't creep you out at all if you found out your Uber driver was a murderer?
Sure, but it's not different than any other profession as far as being a murderer goes. I don't want a murderer plumber or murderer mailman either.
10 rounds is the typical police response whenever they pull out a gun and use it, and any training I have ever been involved in you are told to shoot until you know the threat has been eliminated so I'm not judging on 10 rounds.
Whether it's Uber or a cab, picking up a ride at 3:00 am has got to have an elevated level of risk for the driver involved.
As for being charged, he has been charged under "investigation of 1st degree murder", he has not been arrested for 1st degree murder, big difference. This is a way for the police to hold him until their initial investigation is able to deduce what the events were and whether or not the investigation continues. I'm guessing he was attacked by a drunk/crazy rider, hit the brakes, jumped out when he could as he was firing and the car rolling into the wall. The other driver was probably behind him or came upon the scene just as it ended.
Sounds like the most plausible scenario to me based on the little information provided to this point.
"Casings outside *could* be due to open windows, and the fact it was a .40 Short and Weak, which can have fairly decent ejection. "
Thank god it wasn't a 9mm.... passenger would still be alive.....[Coffee]
spqrzilla
06-04-2018, 14:33
The media make a big deal of this because tarring Uber is a large Democrat / Union goal. The idea of internet-enabled gig economy is a nightmare of unions.
And yes, I know that Uber itself is a company with a toxic management culture.
.455_Hunter
06-04-2018, 15:24
Still being held under "investigation" of a murder charge- no charges yet.
Officially charged.
First degree murder after deliberation.
http://kdvr.com/2018/06/07/uber-driver-accused-of-fatally-shooting-passenger-charged-with-murder/
With deliberation sounds interesting. Must have continued shooting once safely out of car.
Hrm. Prosecutorial overreach? Think they swung too far and will result in a not guilty?
colorider
06-07-2018, 11:53
Only going off what I have read and what I have seen in interviews with his wife, but it seems like the guy was a solid dude. Good father, student, good with the community kids. This will be an interesting case to follow.
im refering to the guy in jail, not the one who was shot.
Zundfolge
06-07-2018, 12:11
I guess the big lesson here is that if you are going to drive for Uber and carry a gun, you should have a camera recording every trip.
The deliberation part would mean that he committed the murder after taking the act into consideration. So 1st degree would also mean that he planned this crime and it was not an impulsive attack nor an attack in self defense. Interesting, the DA thinks they have evidence to show that he knowingly planned to take the victims life after also thinking about and considering the outcome?
.455_Hunter
06-07-2018, 12:31
I really do hope that there is truly some evidence of a crime and this is not simply a case of "let's make an example out of this guy" because he wasn't supposed to have a gun. I wonder if Uber has also been putting pressure on the DA to prosecute and give their "policy" some teeth.
Will CCW insurance groups cover such an instance as employer policy against firearms?
Employer policy is not law, so I'd like to think so, but you never know.
Employer policy is not law, so I'd like to think so, but you never know.
Is there such a thing as post facto trespassing charge due to CCW at work? I'd think if it was "during the commission of a criminal activity (trespassing)" they wouldn't. But of course there would be no actual trespassing unless thrown retroactively?
That's outside my lane, but generally the conversation around liability is along the lines of "what did our insured do wrong?" If the answer is "nothing, up until someone wanted to apply something after the fact..." then that's a tough argument to deny coverage. That's just my opinion though.
I guess the big lesson here is that if you are going to drive for Uber and carry a gun, you should have a camera recording every trip.
I'm starting to wonder if that is what got him in trouble. IF he had a camera and he said something before the incident....
ie: "Hey fucker, do that again and I'll kill you"
Do you think the Uber charged dead guys' fare?
During Uber employment (on shift), is a driver's car considered Uber "property" in any capacity?
During Uber employment (on shift), is a driver's car considered Uber "property" in any capacity?
The drivers are all independent contractors so no.
If you work for a company that has conditions that CCW is not allowed, and you agree to those conditions, you're likely out of a job if it's known that you violated those conditions. You're not breaking the law, but you are breaking the conditional employment agreement.
Some will argue that you can get another job if you use a gun for self-defense, but you can't get another life. In this case, the Uber driver is still in a fight for his life...and he's likely all alone in that fight.
Sent from my electronic leash using Tapatalk
BPTactical
06-07-2018, 20:39
Curious what the "after deliberation" entails.
.455_Hunter
07-30-2018, 14:10
Interesting how two different stations prioritize the same autopsy report information...
Channel 9 KUSA-
Uber passenger killed on I-25 had blood alcohol level nearly 4 times legal limit
https://www.9news.com/article/news/local/uber-passenger-killed-on-i-25-had-blood-alcohol-level-nearly-4-times-legal-limit/73-578719301
Channel 7 KMGH-
Autopsy report: Man allegedly killed by Denver Uber driver was shot 6 times
https://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/local-news/autopsy-report-man-allegedly-killed-by-denver-uber-driver-was-shot-6-times
That is an interesting difference in headlines.
A rider being under the influence and using a service like Uber is pretty typical. Not sure how that can be addressed because it's kind of the entire point in a city like Denver.
The driver (Hancock) can probably use whatever x legal limit or influence/intoxication, but pax wasn't driving or operating motors.
Does driver have any bruises or scratches?
This whole case seems like them trying to make an example out of the driver.
I just got done using about 15 uber drivers in vegas for the last 5 days and have a hard time believing that an Uber driver would premeditate killing a passenger for no reason.
One of the recent posted links says there was a gun shot to the side of his back and saying that's "problematic". I just don't see that when you have a moving attacker. I'm wondering if its because he fired ten shots and hit him 6 times? I guess only the police get to dump mags into suspects and not citizens?
Hrm. Prosecutorial overreach? Think they swung too far and will result in a not guilty?
You called it.
https://www.9news.com/mobile/article/news/crime/uber-driver-murder-trial-hancock-found-not-guilty/73-79272a28-f523-47b6-84c6-8aa525c8aa1e
.455_Hunter
10-10-2019, 18:20
Lovely...
Corboy & Demetrio, the attorney that represents the family of Kim, said they plan to file a wrongful death lawsuit against Uber.
"The fact remains that the shooting could have been prevented if Uber had enforced one of its cardinal rules: Drivers are not allowed to have a gun in the car,? said Corboy & Demetrio Partner Francis Patrick Murphy. ?Hancock routinely violated this rule and Uber failed to enforce its policy."
So the victim should have been unarmed and the perp's assault gone unimpeded?
Lovely...
So the victim should have been unarmed and the perp's assault gone unimpeded?
That's the agenda. Take away the guns, the knives, the fists, the fingernails, any means of self-defense. Create full dependency on the governmental authorities.
.455_Hunter
10-10-2019, 20:14
I am tempted to call and give an earful to the Chicago based office of Corboy and Demetrio.
Prosecutors told jurors that the evidence didn't back up Hancock's self-defense claim, including that he didn't suffer any serious injuries. They also pointed out that Hancock admitted to putting his knife in Kim's hands after shooting him.
What the hell..
re knife: Probably a momentary freak out based on the idea of needing to prove to others the reality of the self-defense situation in which he had very recently found himself, and then a realization of the stupidity of that being found out.
re knife: Probably a momentary freak out based on the idea of needing to prove to others the reality of the self-defense situation in which he had very recently found himself, and then a realization of the stupidity of that being found out.
That would be my guess on this. The fact that he didn?t go thru with it I think even more points that it was a legit shoot.
Aloha_Shooter
10-11-2019, 23:42
10 rounds sounds extreme, but, was the other party armed?
10 rounds fired sounds restrained to me.
Why does 10 rounds sound extreme? I think we've all seen videos of drugged up bad guys taking a full magazine because they didn't know they were dead. Do you stop firing even when the danger persists and you still have ammunition just because the total shots fired "sounds extreme"?
They are hoping for a settlement. If the description is correct, I'm betting it's a 12(b) dismissal instead and they have an automatic judgment against them for attorney fees.
I don't think there's really a tort for "the company wasn't frisking their individual contractors before they got in their individually owned cars to see if they had guns in violation of the clearly defined uber policy to not have guns"
Remember, people can institute any suit they want, even frivolous and invalid ones. It's your responsibility to ask the court to dismiss it and cite appropriate precedence and rules to do so.
ETA: For instance, they are probably going to do a claim for negligence, which has clear burdens. Their problem is they can't plead a valid "duty of care" which is a component of the claim; e.g. they can't credibly plead that Uber had any legal responsibility to proactively enforce such terms in their contract. (e.g. frisk drivers before every job)
Why does 10 rounds sound extreme? I think we've all seen videos of drugged up bad guys taking a full magazine because they didn't know they were dead. Do you stop firing even when the danger persists and you still have ammunition just because the total shots fired "sounds extreme"?
Hancock also testified that he was trying to shoot low since he only wanted to stop the attack and didn't want to kill his attacker.
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