Recover undamaged shot bullet and jacket [Archive] - Colorado AR-15 Shooters Club Discussion Forums

porterdavid98

06-19-2018, 14:02

Having an issue with copper fragments inside the action areas of my new Desert Eagle. The popular opinion is that these fragments are coming from the copper jacket during ramping. The cartridge of a spent round is not marked. Would like to examine the jacket of a shot round without any impact damage. How can I do that?

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.455_Hunter

06-19-2018, 14:26

I have always been amazed by the pristine nature of bullets, even hollow points, recovered from snow banks. Given your location, however, that could prove problematic.

davsel

06-19-2018, 14:27

Load 2 in mag
Fire one
Hand eject 2nd and examine.

Can't imagine how copper jacket will come off of bullet and stay in gun between the time it is chambered and the time it exits the barrel.

cstone

06-19-2018, 14:45

Large tank of water or water barrel. Fire from about 10 feet to the top of the water. Recover the spent bullet.

You may want to talk to someone at the state forensic lab as they will have techs who do this on a regular basis and can at least answer your questions.

Be safe.

def90

06-19-2018, 15:56

DenverGP

06-19-2018, 16:19

There might be damage that only occurs from the gun cycling that chambering it by hand may not replicate.

ray1970

06-19-2018, 16:21

Do any of your neighbors have a swimming pool?

def90

06-19-2018, 16:34

There might be damage that only occurs from the gun cycling that chambering it by hand may not replicate.

Well, shoot one round and eject the next..

TEAMRICO

06-19-2018, 16:55

Do any of your neighbors have a swimming pool?
Knock Knock
“Hey Neighbor....I noticed you pool.....I have a favor to ask......”

cstone

06-19-2018, 18:59

Do any of your neighbors have a swimming pool?

Wait till they go out to watch the fireworks. That should cover it. [Sarcasm2]

Alpha2

06-20-2018, 16:06

Seriously, guys??? Just shoot one into the air, then catch it in your hand when it comes back down. Sheesh. Easy.

Jeff

ETA, we had a bullet pass through a steel roof on a hangar and penetrate both the top and bottom skins of a fuel tank of a plane in said hangar. Didn't work out when the next pilot took off with a "known full tank" and came to grief later. (Pre-flight check is like gravity, it's not just a good idea, it's the law!).
It apparently happened on the fourth of July.

Irving

06-20-2018, 16:18

I was going to suggest something similar, but wanted him to get real answers first before I started clowning around. I've dug bullets out of roof shingles before as well.

porterdavid98

06-21-2018, 08:34

Thanks for all the constructive comments. I still would like to post a photo showing what these particles look like but for some reason my phone is not accessing my photos. I have clicked every reference in settings that I can find. Tapatalk is not requesting access. Anyway, these particles are rather large, not like dust but easy to see and feel. No question in my mind particles this size if missing from a jacket would have to affect bullet path and accuracy.

Update: hand cycling rounds shows some scratches on the jacket but no large scars or gouges. Have not had the chance to fire a round and hand eject the next chambered round which should be more meaningful.

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ray1970

06-21-2018, 11:08

Just to keep the shenanigans going in an otherwise serious thread...

Desk pop.

Then into the attic for projectile recovery.

SideShow Bob

06-22-2018, 10:59

ETA:
After re-reading your post and your concern is feeding up the ramp...
Why not load a primer-less, powder-less round and keep cycling it in the clean pistol using the slide release say ten or twenty times, and then examine both the round and the pistol?

Just remember, don’t pull the trigger with a dummy round in the chamber without an old primer or the primer pocket filled with something like hard rubber, or your firing pin could become lodged in the primer’s flash hole and make it very difficult to get the gun disassembled without damaging the firing pin.

porterdavid98

06-22-2018, 13:28

I think these particles are chunks not shavings. Anyone want to give me email address that I can send my photo and in turn somebody could post to this discussion. I don’t know what is wrong but I can’t upload to this forum. In my case 10,000 words won’t do.

Dave

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ray1970

06-22-2018, 22:24

Here are a couple of pictures that the OP wanted to post up.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180623/4b77380131b1817e036f1cf0bfdc9036.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180623/d732684b63775242bdb48abdb1cb71b3.jpg

porterdavid98

06-23-2018, 06:53

Thanks to Ray for posting my photos. Not sure why I couldn’t do that myself.

Anyway, I hope the photos show that these fragments are larger than tiny scrapes or shavings. These particular pieces were in side the slide area amongst the two recoil springs, after only 25 shots, 1/2 of a box of 50. I can promise that the gun prior to this outing was fully cleaned and no such fragments existed.

Would you agree that fragments this size would have to affect the flight path of the bullet?

Dave

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ray1970

06-23-2018, 07:24

Are you positive the pieces are bullet material?

I have no experience with the platform but you don’t have something in the pistol eating itself up?

I’m having trouble figuring out how pieces of the projectile could end up in the recoil spring area under normal operation.

If you want to humor me you could take a magnet to the little chunks and see if they stick. If they’re magnetic you can rule out the ammunition as the source.

porterdavid98

06-24-2018, 11:27

Thanks Ray, but the idea of magnetic materials crossed our mind early on. Yes we verified that all the pieces are curved and brass or copper colored. Non magnetic as well. I will shoot a photo to demonstrate that soon.

The next step in this saga will be trying a different brand of ammo and also some non jacketed ammo.

In each case we will hand eject a few rounds to see if that will help point us in any direction.

Like you, we can not account for how these particles end up inside the slide area.

Besides the curiosity factor we need this fixed. But so far our preliminary effort to enlist the help of Magnum Research has not been helpful.

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Irving

06-24-2018, 13:18

What does the spent brass look like?

ben4372

06-24-2018, 21:58

I thought the recommendation was not to shoot unjacketed, because of the gas system. I'm sure you found this link. https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=212553

Why not send it back? I've found shooting into dirt usually produces a bullet that would tell you what the jacket is doing. Though it is a bit rough.

Gman

06-25-2018, 16:42

I would like to meet a guy that can concealed carry a Desert Eagle.

On second thought...

If I were going to test damage from chambering, I'd slingshot fully to the rear from maximum slide travel and let it fly into battery.

Hey, I just thought of another bullet damage mechanism. The DE is gas operated and shooting a rimmed cartridge that has a semi-jacketed bullet. Could the rim of the spent cartridge be catching the lead face of the bullet at the top of the mag under recoil? This seems to me like it could create pieces of bullet similar to those in the pics.

I would think this is most likely to happen when the mag is loaded to capacity and difficult to compress. Maybe try loading less than full capacity to see if the problem is reduced? I'd try it with FMJ ball and see if there's an absence of bullet pieces. Then you know the bullet construction is playing a role.

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porterdavid98

06-25-2018, 18:22

Well that is a well thought out scenario totally different than everything expressed so far. Thanks for the concept. I will try to find some round nose fully jacketed ammo to try out.

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porterdavid98

06-25-2018, 18:37

Sending the whole gun back is my last resort mainly because of the need to involve a FFL dealer and the one I bought/ordered the gun through is 150 miles away. But I am afraid it will come to that. Also, I am not comfortable parting with the whole $2,000.00 gun. I am hoping I can avoid the FFL dealer part by keeping the frame since the issue involves the chamber/barrel/slide but not the fire control/trigger. But what do I know.

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porterdavid98

06-25-2018, 18:39

I also have shot these rounds into a 50 pound sand bag and that didn’t leave me anything telling.

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Irving

06-25-2018, 18:47

I've sent an entire pistol back to the factory with out involving an FFL, I think. Has something changed?

porterdavid98

06-25-2018, 18:48

I thought I answered this one, but I collect all my brass and not one had even the slightest ding or mark.

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porterdavid98

06-25-2018, 18:54

Someone sent me the paperwork to prepare in advance and the factory needs to issue a return authorization and include the FFL dealer info that will handle the return.

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colorider

06-25-2018, 22:16

Just my 2c, but I would load the mag, fire a round, eject the round that is now in the chamber. Do that until you see chunks in the ejected live round. I had a very similar problem with a pistol caliber carbine and that is how I found out where the bullet shavings were coming from. Ended up being the bullet was scraping where it was entering the barrel. It was just barely out of spec.

Gman

06-25-2018, 22:49

Someone sent me the paperwork to prepare in advance and the factory needs to issue a return authorization and include the FFL dealer info that will handle the return.
That seems a little odd to me, but I haven't had to do a warranty return since our transfer laws changed. I would usually get the RMA and a pre-paid shipping label. I put the gun (in its mfr. padded box) in the shipping box, attach the label, with nothing identifying that there's a gun inside, and ship it. They'd fix it and ship it back to me directly the same way, but with the repaired gun inside. I once received a different serial # back since they replaced the entire gun, but since the mfr. was also an FFL, it was easy for them to do. But maybe the times have changed.

Irving

06-25-2018, 22:51

I think mine was before our law change as well. Doesn't matter since OP is from LA and we probably are not familiar with their laws (if they even have any down there). ;)

DenverGP

06-25-2018, 23:51

That seems a little odd to me, but I haven't had to do a warranty return since our transfer laws changed.

About a year or two after the new background check law, I was able to fedex my gun to ruger, they repaired it and shipped it back directly to my door.

I believe they told me if the serialized receiver had to be replaced, they'd ship it back thru an FFL, but they would pay for the background check.

def90

06-26-2018, 00:07

def90

06-26-2018, 00:08

I think mine was before our law change as well. Doesn't matter since OP is from LA and we probably are not familiar with their laws (if they even have any down there). ;)

Louisiana has fewer laws than we do.. should be fine to ship directly to him.

porterdavid98

06-26-2018, 03:29

Well apparently I can send a complete gun back directly without FFL intervention provided I do not use the US Mail. I DO need the Mfg. return authorization label which Magnum Research will Provide and the complete gun inside the factory padded case must then be sent Fed Ex over night or UPS priority two day delivery. Ouch, pricey as you already noted. I will work out the details later this morning and Magnum Research said to not be surprised if they don’t send a completely different gun since this one is only 4 months old.

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ray1970

06-26-2018, 06:24

More pictures that the OP wanted posted.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180626/5e914f314bd55bf0f1b13aedf6d181ee.png

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180626/27bd94e4b6042c369b821a3ddb5ff7e0.png

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180626/e27fe803a2300b1354b4722174b9ca6a.png

Irving

06-26-2018, 07:30

Ahhh, Smith & Wesson just sent me a box and shipping label. Must be why I don't remember it being a big deal.

porterdavid98

06-26-2018, 07:43

Here is the response I just got back from Magnum Research. Really?

David,

I sent your pictures to the gunsmith. He said this was somewhat common especially in .357 caliber. He said to just make sure an clean them after your done shooting for the day.

Magnum Research Inc.
Customer Service/Tech Support

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porterdavid98

06-26-2018, 08:17

I replied that that response is unacceptable.

Now I think I want them to buy this back from me. I am done.

If not?

File a complaint with the NRA, the BBB, Angie’s list and Consumer Reports. Anybody else?

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porterdavid98

06-26-2018, 08:19

Somebody suggested adding Hillary and Barrack to my list, ouch!

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Irving

06-26-2018, 14:43

Not sure any of those organizations have any teeth for what you want.

colorider

06-26-2018, 22:11

Wow. That is a pretty lame response by Magnum Research. A new pistol is shaving chunks off ammo and they say just clean the gun? um, NO!!! Not only should they be fixing the problem at NO charge, they should absolutely be picking up the cost of shipping it back to them! UNLESS it says in the instruction manual to NOT use anything but fmj ammo. Then it may be a different story.
My firearm was an American Tactical 9mm Milsport that was nicking and shaving copper off of fmj ammo. They instantly sent me a call tag, and RMA and I dropped off the package at FEDEX.
2 weeks later my gun came back running perfect and not acting like a bullet grater Not impressed Magnum Research.

porterdavid98

06-28-2018, 08:25

Continuation on this problem.

Actually got to talk to the gun smith for Magnum Research that only works on the 357 guns. He studied all the photos which he said are much better than most they receive. The problem is clearly visible and cleaning would not fix the problem. There are final alignment issues that were not addressed at manufacture, involving the extractor. The extractor is not able to retreat properly and drags a 1/8th strip down the loading round sometimes ripping the copper jacket. Besides everything else accuracy would be very affected.

Started the process of arranging a prepaid return authorization .

They said I would get back the original frame and serial number but a new matched extractor, bolt and barrel assembly, which will be tested and verified before shipping back.

I will post the final resolve (hopefully) when/if it happens. My faith in the American version of Desert Eagle is shaken. My advice at this point is be cautious.

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