View Full Version : Looks like the armed resident was shot by responding LEO...
.455_Hunter
07-30-2018, 17:31
Ugh.
http://ww.9news.com/article/news/crime/aurora-officer-responds-to-break-in-kills-armed-resident/73-578607335 (http://ww.9news.com/article/news/crime/aurora-officer-responds-to-break-in-kills-armed-resident/73-578607335)
AURORA — The armed man shot by an Aurora Police Department officer responding to a reported home invasion early Monday morning was a resident of the house, an investigation has revealed. That man died at the hospital, according to a news release from APD. He had apparently shot and killed an intruder, who was found dead on the bathroom floor. A child was taken to the hospital with serious injuries caused by the intruder, the news release said.
The incident started with multiple 911 calls just before 1:30 a.m. Monday reporting a disturbance in the area of North Iola Street and east Montview Boulevard. According to the news release, a woman called 911 and said a man was breaking into her home at 10609 E. Montview Blvd. The release said officers “arrived to a very chaotic and violent scene” and heard gunshots inside the home.
The officers later encountered an armed man, according to the news release. One officer fired his weapon, hitting him. It wasn’t until later that investigators discovered the man lived inside the home.
Your thoughts on how this could be prevented by both the home's residents AND responding LEO?
My concern is that the resident who was auditorily compromised, stunned and partially in-shock, could not respond to LEO directives fast enough (or even know if they were actually LEO) before being shot.
Hopefully the body cam will yield some good actionable information for training and preparing.
Just a terrible situation all together. I’ll withhold any opinions until the investigation is completed and statements from both the victims family, APD and DA’s Office are released.
mattiooo
07-30-2018, 18:00
This one mentions a seriously injured juvenile as well:
https://kdvr.com/2018/07/30/aurora-police-shoot-armed-homeowner-after-homeowner-shoots-intruder-in-aurora/
"Authorities also found a juvenile who was transported to a local hospital for serious, but non-life-threatening injuries, caused by the deceased intruder."
When I F'up at work in sales related job, i had to pay deductibles because it was a commission based job.
Maybe some of the other occupation needs to do that.
mattiooo
07-30-2018, 18:56
When I F'up at work in sales related job, i had to pay deductibles because it was a commission based job.
Maybe some of the other occupation needs to do that.
We don't know if the officers are at fault. They may have done everything right and still ended up this way. I think we need more details before we judge anything as KS63 said.
I think there could be some valuable lessons for us all that come out of this.
We don't know if the officers are at fault. They may have done everything right and still ended up this way. I think we need more details before we judge anything as KS63 said.
I think there could be some valuable lessons for us all that come out of this.
I'm not judging either. But, I personally think many officers would rather be "judged by 12 than carried by 6". An exception might be the cop out side the school in Florida, or the wait and see approach in the stairwell in Las Vegas. I'm also teaching my kids to move slow and NEVER go for a cell phone or wallet. Byproduct of our love of guns.
BushMasterBoy
07-30-2018, 19:24
My thought is that if you have a home invader and you shoot them, put on some body armor if you have the chance. There might be more invaders coming. Also, contact the 911 dispatcher and tell them what you are wearing and to inform the officers attending the scene. The body armor will give you a better chance of surviving, no matter who shoots at you. This is just my opinion.
Sounds like a tough situation. We all have an idea of what we would do in such a situation, but things rarely work out as planned. Ideally if you shoot a home intruder, you set the gun down and have hands visible until law enforcement arrives. That's fine if you KNOW there is no one else, and there is time between securing your house and officers arriving. Sounds like officers arrived to the sound of gun shots, so they probably aren't just chilling outside for a few while you get all your ducks in a row. They don't know what the guy who lives there looks like since none of us where homeowner uniforms. So what do you do of you've barely finished engaging the bad guy and the next person you see is the police coming in? Tough situation for sure.
We don't know if the officers are at fault. They may have done everything right and still ended up this way. I think we need more details before we judge anything as KS63 said.
I think there could be some valuable lessons for us all that come out of this.
Sorry if it sounded like judging. (Wrong word choice on my end)
I am sure there are no bad intent from both but just tragic outcome.
Great-Kazoo
07-30-2018, 20:43
Ugh.
http://ww.9news.com/article/news/crime/aurora-officer-responds-to-break-in-kills-armed-resident/73-578607335 (http://ww.9news.com/article/news/crime/aurora-officer-responds-to-break-in-kills-armed-resident/73-578607335)
Your thoughts on how this could be prevented by both the home's residents AND responding LEO?
IF (key word) If you have some composure make sure on the 911 call to I.D yourself.
IF threat is neutralized, place weapon on ground, away from you / reach. This shows (Hopefully) you're not the threat and are complying with commands of on scene LE
My thought is that if you have a home invader and you shoot them, put on some body armor if you have the chance. There might be more invaders coming. Also, contact the 911 dispatcher and tell them what you are wearing and to inform the officers attending the scene. The body armor will give you a better chance of surviving, no matter who shoots at you. This is just my opinion.
If you had time to put on body armor after the first engagement, you're clearly not placed in a life threatening scenario. Had you the time to don armor, you had time to FLIGHT/ escape, move to a more secure area.
This sucks all the way around.
BushMasterBoy
07-30-2018, 20:58
If you had time to put on body armor after the first engagement, you're clearly not placed in a life threatening scenario. Had you the time to don armor, you had time to FLIGHT/ escape, move to a more secure area.
Huh? Im'not fleeing. I live here. This is my secure area.
Horrible. BG set the whole thing into motion, happy he’s on ice and can’t hurt anyone else.
It’s tough because as LEOs are responding, the situation is transitional. Too early for homeowner to disarm (could still be danger before LE arrives). LEOs can’t take any chances because they are responding to shots fired.
Sometimes you can do everything right and still be wrong.
Be safe.
Sucks all the way around.
Sucks especially for the resident who got killed
Sucks for kid that got jacked up and will be jacked up
Sucks for the officers dealing with the situation and especially for the guy who had to shoot.
Sucks for the family of all involved.
It’s too bad the BG didn’t just kill himself or overdose or.....
bellavite1
07-31-2018, 08:10
Whatever happened to DROP IT, HANDS UP and the like?
Would that put the officer at risk?
Of course, but it is part of the job, if you don't like it get a different job.
If I was to shoot everybody that walks into the range holding a firearm with the action closed we would run out of customers.
I want to work that job, so I live with it and ask them to open the action and show their firearm safe.
The day I am no longer willing to put up with it, there's plenty of hamburgers that need flipping out there.
The officer is on PAID REASSIGNMENT???
Is somebody going to name a street after the good guy that was shot?
Would I be a better cop than that? Probably not, that's why I am not one.
It could have been me.
It could have been my wife.
It could have been you or your wife...
I can't imagine I would have put the gun down before making sure there were no other intruders.
And don't come at me with the cop bashing bullshit...
This sucks all the way around.
This. Easy to poke holes in it from a PC across the city.
Like I say to my wife when we watch the boys play baseball and she "thinks" the umpires call is wrong..."Yeah, you can see it much better from 330 feet than the ump can from 3 feet."
I can see the scenario if, as stated, the officers arrived at the sounds of gun shots, they would have entered the house with guns drawn. If the BG was just put down after some sort of scuffle and the next voice the homeowner hears behind him is “drop the gun”, he would likely turn and point the gun in that direction not knowing what to expect. The police have no idea who just won the gun fight, good guy or bad guy and are not going wait to see if the guy pointing the gun pulls the trigger.
I think I’m going to have a bulletproof vest made with “HOMEOWNER” printed on it just like the LEO vests with FBI, Police or Writer (Castle) to wear just in case.
75522
Zundfolge
07-31-2018, 10:56
I think I’m going to have a bulletproof vest made with “HOMEOWNER” printed on it just like the LEO vests with FBI, Police or Writer (Castle) to wear just in case.
I think a little perspective is in order here, being shot by the cops because you called them for a home invasion robbery is really a black swan event. You're more likely to be killed in a terrorist attack or mass shooting than this (and those are both extreme black swan events).
The chances that any of us will experience an armed home invasion robbery is pretty slim (even for those of you in Pueblo or Aurora :p ).
The chances of any of us experiencing an armed home invasion robbery wherein we call the police BEFORE the suspect is neutralized or fled is even slimmer.
The chances of any of us experiencing an armed home invasion robbery wherein the police have been called before the suspect is neutralized or fled AND we're actively engaging the suspect at the moment the police arrive is far slimmer still.
The chances of this happening again in Colorado within the next decade are virtually nil, so the chances of it happening to someone that thought ahead to buy a bulletproof vest with "HOMEOWNER" printed on it are so impossible that I think we'd all be better off spending our resources trying to prevent our homes from being destroyed by asteroids or being attacked in downtown Denver by a rabid moose.
So the lesson we all need to learn here is; "what caliber for rabid moose?"
BushMasterBoy
07-31-2018, 11:46
What are the chances of being awakened by the sheriff robo calling that an active shooter in your neighborhood? Already happened last year. I woke up and went outside. And yes I could hear gun shots. Some pot growing ahole was shooting at anything including deputies. I went back to bed since I was medded up from surgery that week. What are the odds?
[snip]
I think I’m going to have a bulletproof vest made with “HOMEOWNER” printed on it just like the LEO vests with FBI, Police or Writer (Castle) to wear just in case.
75522
[LOL]
Can I get one that says ASSHOLE? Then I could wear it out on the town too.
Zundfolge
07-31-2018, 14:02
What are the odds?
Well you do live in Pueblo ....
[Evil]
Bitter Clinger
07-31-2018, 15:18
Homeowner was a Vietnam vet. From 9 news.
The armed homeowner who was shot and killed by an Aurora police officer was a 73-year-old Vietnam veteran, 9Wants to Know has learned.
A family member identified the man as Richard Black, an Army veteran. The family member spoke to 9NEWS but asked not to be identified
hollohas
07-31-2018, 16:58
Sounds like the PD arrived while there was active shooting inside. It's a possibility that they entered immediately (as they should if they hear gunfire at a home invasion call) and surprised the homeowner before he had a chance to put the gun down.
My instructions to my family is to explicitly provide 911 with my detailed description and to specifically request they relay that info to responding officers. And to also explicitly state that I am armed so please don't shoot me. ;) Not sure what else one could do to avoid this sort of accident/mistake.
Bitter Clinger
07-31-2018, 17:07
The news just reported his wife called 911 and gave s detailed report of what he was wearing. Soundinf more and more fishy.
mattiooo
07-31-2018, 17:08
Sounds like the PD arrived while there was active shooting inside. It's a possibility that they entered immediately (as they should if they hear gunfire at a home invasion call) and surprised the homeowner before he had a chance to put the gun down.
My instructions to my family is to explicitly provide 911 with my detailed description and to specifically request they relay that info to responding officers. And to also explicitly state that I am armed so please don't shoot me. ;) Not sure what else one could do to avoid this sort of accident/mistake.
A good plan, but in this case "The incident started with multiple 911 calls just before 1:30 a.m. " meaning they came from neighbors too (or only - no details)
hollohas
07-31-2018, 17:16
A good plan, but in this case "The incident started with multiple 911 calls just before 1:30 a.m. " meaning they came from neighbors too (or only - no details)Yeah if it's not the resident making the phone call it's hard to get a description.
If neighbors were making phone calls they had to of heard shooting I imagine. And if there was still shooting when the police showed up later, however long that was, it must have been one heck of a gunfight... Too bad it was a short-lived win.
But I'm glad to hear the child survived.
Hero by any definition. Decorated war vet kills naked intruder who was trying to drown his grandkid. This is so fucked on so many levels.
https://www.denverpost.com/2018/07/31/aurora-police-shooting-victim-identified/
I hope that the identity and deal behind what was going on with this intruder doesn't get lost in the rest of this mess.
hollohas
07-31-2018, 21:11
Was he inside and the police outside and had just arrived? If she was still on line with 911, the police couldn't have been there long.
There is definitely some missing pieces to this story...
From the Denver post article.
The stepson was in the bathroom with the child and Black’s wife was outside talking to 911 operators when they heard additional shots, Rathod said. Black was standing in his living room when he was hit by gunfire, Rathod said.
.455_Hunter
07-31-2018, 21:46
Quote from a current KUSA video on the story...
Aurora does not release body cam footage.
Why not?
Quote from a current KUSA video on the story...
Why not?
Normal reasons. Paid for by tax payers. Even with a FOIA request it can often require a lawsuit in some cases. Especially when the officer can turn it off and on. How convenient is that? I've seen lots of funny videos when cop says "shit camera was on". Turns out this cop shot a guy last month.
Sucks all around, too early to cast judgement. Prayers for the families affected.
Still, we can learn something here.
1. If you have time to holster/stow/store/secure a self defense firearm before interacting with LE, by all means do so, if not, plan on dropping it when LE arrives.
2. No shooters hearing is perfect especially a 73 year old’s, let alone a Vietnam War Vet’s.
3. Police and Citizens alike aren’t required to give verbals to people pointing guns at them, (not saying that the homeowner did that)
4. If you can I.D. Yourself to LE, post shooting do so. If you can stay in your house away from windows, do so.
Lots of things that should have happened differently. Sometimes you can do everything right and still lose. I feel terrible for the homeowner and family.
BladesNBarrels
08-01-2018, 09:23
Chaotic sounds mild.
The Denver Post reported that the intruder was from a party across the busy street.
He was naked, kicked in the door, attacked the 11-year old boy sleeping on the couch, dragged him into the bathroom, attempted to strangle and drown the boy.
Mr Black and his stepson tried to subdue the intruder, hitting him with a vase. When nothing worked, Mr. Black got his pistol and shot the intruder in the chest twice.
Other people from the party entered the house at different times, but there is no specific sequence when they entered and left.
The officers said they heard shots as they pulled up.
A whole lot of investigating is needed before a time line or sequence of activity is clear.
https://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/crime/man-fatally-shot-by-aurora-police-after-shooting-home-intruder-identified-as-vietnam-veteran
https://mediaassets.thedenverchannel.com/photo/2018/07/31/richard%20gary%20black%202_1533069452082.jpg_93842 062_ver1.0_640_480.jpg
[Salute]
Rathod said police fired from outside the home while Black was still inside the home. The officer who shot Black is on paid administrative leave, as is standard.
Facts are starting to change things for me.
ETA: And there are just a few reporting gaps between "guy at a party across the street" to "naked and trying to drown an 11 year old boy sleeping on a couch" presumably minding his own business and/or unknown to the BG.
Zundfolge
08-01-2018, 11:10
2. No shooters hearing is perfect especially a 73 year old’s, let alone a Vietnam War Vet’s.
Especially especially after you've discharged a firearm indoors without hearing protection.
hollohas
08-01-2018, 12:23
There are a few reports now that there were multiple Intruders. That would explain why the homeowner may have still had his gun in his hands even after shooting the one bad guy.
9 news tonight said he wasn't even cleared of his last shooting. Was recently put back into action, not much time off considering. Looks like Aurora might have some splane'n to do. Seems the home owner was nice enough to escalate force.
9 Seems the home owner was nice enough to escalate force.
What do you mean by this ^^^?
“Don’t go slow, be careful” Jedi
DenverGP
08-02-2018, 09:45
What do you mean by this ^^^?
Think he meant he was glad the home owner finally took care of the repeat-offender criminal piece of shit.
hollohas
08-02-2018, 10:01
More info and ID of badguy. You'll see that there shouldn't have been question regarding the positive ID of the bad guy if the wife did in fact provide descriptions on the 911 call.
Bad guy was on drugs. The mom of the bad guy was also in the home apparently.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6019317/Pictured-Naked-intruder-26-shot-dead-homeowner-killed-cops.html
Especially especially after you've discharged a firearm indoors without hearing protection.
Not to mention the adrenaline dump and the sensory distortion that comes with it.
More info and ID of badguy. You'll see that there shouldn't have been question regarding the positive ID of the bad guy if the wife did in fact provide descriptions on the 911 call.
Bad guy was on drugs. The mom of the bad guy was also in the home apparently.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6019317/Pictured-Naked-intruder-26-shot-dead-homeowner-killed-cops.html
A lot more at this link!
Harper, of Denver, who used the aliases 'Harper Boy Killa' and 'Harper Chaos Lil,' had a long history of violence and weapons violations.
He was previously accused of attempted murder and child abuse in 2011 but the charges were dropped. Harper was also jailed for three years for felony assault and menacing with a weapon in 2013.
'I opened my bedroom door, and there's a woman standing there, and she starts saying to me, 'My son is on drugs and he has your baby,'' Hayashi said.
He said Harper had also stripped his son naked before he'd dragged the boy, who was screaming in terror, into the tub with him and switched on the water. The intruder was silent and his eyes were closed when Hayashi found them.
Only after the shots were fired, did he hear officers yelling 'police.'
'They shot the first thing they saw moving, in my opinion,' Hayashi said.
'I was told that he was told to drop the weapon and he didn't,' Hayashi said. 'I never heard anything about 'drop your weapon.' There was no warning at all. They should have been yelling from the moment they hit the driveway, 80 feet down. It's a long driveway. They should have been yelling, especially as many police officers as there were on scene.'
Once i heard that a bunch of party goers also coming in and out, kinda guessed. Todays 9news update, yeap sure enough aurora/denver thug trash.
The police were probably yelling "stop resisting" before they even pulled up to the house.
;)
hollohas
08-02-2018, 16:53
So, the family says they gave a detailed description to 911. The Police says that's not the case but won't release the 911 calls.
The kid's Dad is on record saying he wants all the body cam footage "out there" but the Chief says the family requested the footage not be released.
That's pretty conflicting information.
The Chief said
“Officers responded how I would expect them to respond in that situation … they put themselves in harms way to save lives,”.
That's a pretty out-of-touch statement by the Chief. And one that I'm sure sounds pretty offensive to the family. That may have been the intent, but it wasn't the result this time unfortunately. It was the Grandpa and the kid's Dad that put themselves in harms way to save a life that night.
https://kdvr.com/2018/08/02/aurora-police-hold-first-news-conference-after-officer-fatally-shoots-armed-homeowner/
Bitter Clinger
08-02-2018, 17:08
I know that cop did not get ready for work that day was telling himself that he was gonna kill a innocent man. But thats what happened, release the GD 911 call and the body cam! FFS! This is why many do not trust our boys in blue!
newracer
08-02-2018, 17:56
Press conference
https://business.facebook.com/DenverChannel/videos/10156044086183271/
Really need to see the bodycam footage on this one. After the press conference details it still sounds to me like one cop was jumpy. Seems like you have to give a 70+ year old guy a little more benefit of the doubt in a highly stressful situation like that and not blast him for pointing a flashlight, even if he's not dropping the gun. Probably a fair guess that he (A) doesn't hear well, and/or (B) might be highly confused due to the situation and age, and/or (C) doesn't fit the average mold of a home invader or party goer.
Maybe that's Monday morning quarterbacking . . . but it just doesn't seem like a good shoot to me from the information so far. What a crappy ending for a guy who by all accounts led a decent life and just saved a family member from a waste of oxygen a few minutes earlier.
Every new piece of information I see makes me mentally add another zero to the check that Aurora is gonna end up writing...[facepalm]
Bailey Guns
08-02-2018, 22:03
SMDH at some of you guys.
KevDen2005
08-02-2018, 23:10
SMDH at some of you guys.
If you think that's bad you should read the comments on the press release video.
SMDH at some of you guys.
What is SMDH?
Metz said he's not releasing bodycam at the family's request but that he is otherwise "supportive" of releasing it. Says some of it isn't clear. Also says the Black family has seen it.
Full conference from yesterday...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YcQJzXJMTA
Multiple 911 calls before shots fired about out of control BG on a rampage.
Confusion on home invasion 911 call. Caller asked about weapons and said "no" so responding LEOs may misidentified GG. Dispatch knew someone was hurt in the house but didn't know it was BG. Mrs. Black says "he has a gun" to LEOs as they are walking up doesn't sound like they understood who had the gun. LEOs heard Mr. Black's shots 33 seconds after arrival. Officers give commands for 13 seconds to Mr. Black to drop gun and show hands, he does not comply.
Four rounds fired at Black from outside front door.
Shitshow of miscommunication/lack of communication.
PSA: Talk to your family about how to calmly relate accurate facts to LE.
Singlestack
08-03-2018, 10:15
The video of the press release is disturbing to me. The Chief is describing the bodycam footage he has reviewed. In a very critical part of the video, he states "...one of the officers yells "Gun! Gun!". For the next 13 seconds...", then the video goes silent for about 10 seconds and shows a static photo of a building (city hall?). Then the police chief is shown again saying "...we don't know, but for whatever reason Mr. Black did not drop the gun. About 10 seconds later during all these commands, Mr. Black walks around the room walking toward the officers, again with the gun in one hand and the flashlight in the other. He begins to raise the flashlight toward the officer, he still has the gun in his hand, and it is at that time that my officer fired 4 rounds..."
I find the pause (at marker -36.09) in the video by Denver7 news to be disturbing for several reasons, with two interpretations:
1. There is no removed footage, and what the Chief says just before the pause is IMMEDIATELY followed by what the chief says after the pause.
This means the police chief maintains that an officer yelling "Gun! Gun!" IS a command to Mr. Black to drop the gun. I believe most reasonable people would strongly disagree with that remark, and instead believe is was intended to alert other officers nearby that a person in the house had a gun. This pots the police chief and aurora PD in a very bad light.
2. There is removed footage, and the chief is describing in the missing 10 seconds that the officers directed different commands to Mr. Black to drop the handgun. This would seem to square with the chief's statements after the pause, and would seem to suggest that Denver7 may have an ulterior motive to represent Aurora PD in a very bad light. I have no idea if this is true, or not, but the media has many times over the years found to have modified/doctored audio and/or video to change the story for their own purposes.
I have no idea what Mr. Black did or didn't hear, what commands were said or not said, but I find the Denver7 video to be of concern.
Singlestack
08-03-2018, 11:09
Thanks to the video just posted by Skip, we can see what Denver7 did: they deliberately left out some video to make the police look bad.
Just after the chief says "For the next 13 seconds...", he actually says "...officers continued to give at least 5 commands to Mr. Black to drop the gun and to show his hands". Then he says "We don't know why, but for whatever reason..." which is where the Denver7 video picked up after the pause.
Could the pause have been accidental? To me, extremely unlikely given "news" people record all the time and would know when to stop recording. Because of the critical break and what is said immediately before and after, I see no other plausible explanation other than a political and anti-police agenda. I'm not commenting on the incident itself and any blame or culpability Aurora PD may have. However, I am saying that I believe Denver7 is fake news and is not to be trusted.
And yet they want to cry when people start to think they are the enemy of the people.
[snip]
I am saying that I believe Denver7 is fake news and is not to be trusted.
Selective editing/reporting is the oldest trick in the book and it isn't just 7 that does it. Sometimes agenda, sometimes to get interest on a story.
I'm not sure the shooting of Mr. Black is a "good shoot" for APD. To engage him outside the door limits LEOs ability to assess the situation, but, there are things Metz said in the conference that explain the situation and create context. I do not believe the LEOs acted with malice or were necessarily reckless. Given the miscommunication I think there was widespread confusion and then they heard the shots from within the house. They had seconds to fill the gaps, had a noncompliant man with a gun (probably in shock and struggling to deal with what happened himself), and fired.
Situation really sucks.
Only good come out of this is Mr. Black's public service in taking the BG out.
ETA: More good... Public awareness that a naked tweaker-shitstain could break into your house at 1:30AM to murder your children and you might just need a firearm in spite of your politics.
And yet they want to cry when people start to think they are the enemy of the people.
That is a very broad statement, I know because I make broad statements too.
The rank and file, most of them aren't the enemy. However the 'crats, yes most of the 'crats in the police administration and in any government function are the enemy.
Aloha_Shooter
08-03-2018, 14:58
And yet they want to cry when people start to think they are the enemy of the people.
That is a very broad statement, I know because I make broad statements too.
The rank and file, most of them aren't the enemy. However the 'crats, yes most of the 'crats in the police administration and in any government function are the enemy.
I took fitz19d's statement to be a reference to the media crying about Trump calling them an enemy of the people. When they seem to deliberately misinform in their "reporting" ... yes, they ARE enemies of the people.
Bitter Clinger
08-03-2018, 15:35
This sucks all around. I pray for the officer and family. All were placed in a bad situation. The only person to blame is the thankfully dead pos that broke in.
Singlestack
08-03-2018, 15:46
Im fairly floored about reports that Aurora PD put the bad perp's relatives in the same holding cell as Mr. Black's relatives, and then had to separate them when a fight started breaking out. What on earth were they thinking (or not)? It does seem the responding officers were very uncertain about who was a perp and who was a victim in the aftermath. Handcuffing Mr. Black as he is bleeding out seems pretty extreme, but seems to indicate the cops thought he might be or was a perp.
I took fitz19d's statement to be a reference to the media crying about Trump calling them an enemy of the people. When they seem to deliberately misinform in their "reporting" ... yes, they ARE enemies of the people.
Oh, yes I can see that too, and in that case the majority of the media IS the enemy of the people.
Thank you for presenting another view.
That is a very broad statement, I know because I make broad statements too.
The rank and file, most of them aren't the enemy. However the 'crats, yes most of the 'crats in the police administration and in any government function are the enemy.
As aloha cover3d, i meant the media. They are making a big cry fest about acosta being yelled at etc.
+this gem of him squaring off with press sec
https://twitter.com/WiredSources/status/1025092288496709632?s=20
Snowman78
01-03-2019, 22:29
Here is the full DA report, I encourage everyone to read all 26 pages.
http://adamsbroomfieldda.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/OIS-2018-07-30-Letter-2018-12-03.pdf
hollohas
01-03-2019, 22:33
The body cam footage was posted a few weeks ago too. Worth watching.
Snowman78
01-03-2019, 22:46
Where? I would like to see it.
hollohas
01-03-2019, 22:48
I'm digging it up again. I think it was the Aurora PD youtube...standby
hollohas
01-03-2019, 22:51
https://youtu.be/xJRQCrCXV8w
https://youtu.be/xJRQCrCXV8w
3 seconds in and I'm already pissed off.
They heard gun shots inside the home, and could not comprehend why the suspect did not respond to verbal commands immediately afterwards?
More importantly, I can see from that video that the gun is in his right hand, and he raises a flashlight with his left, which is when the officer shoots him. And then once more when he's on the ground.
I get that they're pumping adrenaline through their systems, but that last shot into the guy's back while he's laying on the ground?
Snowman78
01-03-2019, 23:06
Thanks, after reading the report and seeing the body cam footage it was just such a shitty situation.
Tough to criticize the reaction of someone who had just fought someone, been hit in the head with a vase, and then killed the person who was assaulting their grandson. The whole incident lasted less than ten minutes for Mr. Black.
The officers got disjointed and confusing information and no description of the suspect causing the disturbance. That is not anyone's fault and too often is normal if you are close enough and responding faster than the dispatcher can get information. The officer who killed Mr. Black was reacting exactly the way most police officers are trained when someone has a gun, is not responding to commands, and points (in this case) a flashlight at them. The incident lasted less than three minutes for the officer who killed Mr. Black.
I am honestly without any good answers for how we, as gun owners should respond differently if we ever find ourselves in a similar situation. I don't know how you train to react after being hit in the head and killing someone in defense of a loved one and then being confronted by more armed men, who happen to be law enforcement. I can't say that I would be any more clear thinking and probably less than Mr. Black.
Be safe.
I'll say it. That cop is not afraid to shoot. I'm at a loss as to how to teach my kids how to interact with the police. As of right now I tell them to do everything they are told, move slow and don't go for your wallet. I keep my info in the visor so I don't have to reach for nothing. I also turn down the N.W.A. When the police is made up of soldiers from the military, we get this. My impression of the Officer Friendly program when I was little is not the police we have now. One bad apple and such.
I'll say it. That cop is not afraid to shoot. I'm at a loss as to how to teach my kids how to interact with the police. As of right now I tell them to do everything they are told, move slow and don't go for your wallet. I keep my info in the visor so I don't have to reach for nothing. I also turn down the N.W.A. When the police is made up of soldiers from the military, we get this. My impression of the Officer Friendly program when I was little is not the police we have now. One bad apple and such.
Daniel Shaver did everything he was told and died in a hotel hallway for it.
I don't see why it's a big deal to fire cops after a bad, or even questionable shoot. You fucked up and killed someone, go get a different job. Why should the public fund expensive civil suits so the department can retain officers that screwed up so bad that they killed someone? Are we so hard up for police that we can't even stand to let some go?
It sounds like the office that killed Mr. black made a mistake, at least in comparison to the murderer that murdered Daniel Shaver. Either way, I can't see why either officer should keep his job. Same with the FBI agent who shot the guy at a club. Is that unreasonable?
Daniel Shaver did everything he was told and died in a hotel hallway for it.
That was my immediate thought when reading his post, too. Cops will give conflicting commands (Officer 1: Hands behind your head! Officer 2: Hands up!) and then one of them might shoot you for it.
I don't see why it's a big deal to fire cops after a bad, or even questionable shoot. You fucked up and killed someone, go get a different job. Why should the public fund expensive civil suits so the department can retain officers that screwed up so bad that they killed someone? Are we so hard up for police that we can't even stand to let some go?
It sounds like the office that killed Mr. black made a mistake, at least in comparison to the murderer that murdered Daniel Shaver. Either way, I can't see why either officer should keep his job. Same with the FBI agent who shot the guy at a club. Is that unreasonable?
Did you read the DA's report and then watch the video? Officer Limbaugh shot and killed Mr. Black. Former Officer Brailsford killed Mr. Shaver. The former FBI agent Bishop killed no one. Notice that in two of the three cases, former Officer Brailsford and former FBI agent Bishop are no longer employed in law enforcement. Both Brailsford and Bishop were prosecuted. Brailsford was acquitted by a jury of 2nd degree murder and Bishop plead guilty to 3rd degree assault.
Each case needs to be evaluated individually. Sadly, when agencies or departments fire employees, the unions that represent them have enough power to force settlements for wrongful termination and often get the employees reinstated. Just because an officer kills someone doesn't mean the officer made an error. If you are carrying a gun you must be prepared to use it and using it can often lead to someone's death.
I didn't say that any time an officer kills someone they should lose their job. Didn't the officer that killed Black also kill someone else before then? I thought there wasn't a question about the first one.
I don't want to suggest this is ready or black and white, because of course it isn't. The unions add another level of complexity and I'm sure there are many other things of which I'm not aware that do as well.
I didn't say that any time an officer kills someone they should lose their job. Didn't the officer that killed Black also kill someone else before then? I thought there wasn't a question about the first one.
I don't want to suggest this is ready or black and white, because of course it isn't. The unions add another level of complexity and I'm sure there are many other things of which I'm not aware that do as well.
Yes, the last part of the DA's report noted that Officer Limbaugh had shot and killed someone just over a month before he shot and killed Mr. Black. According to the report, the dead man had attempted to fire at Officer Limbaugh but his weapon failed. Officer Limbaugh then fired his handgun killing the person. There was body camera footage in that shooting as well. It was reviewed and Officer Limbaugh was not charged with a crime in that homicide. He had just returned to duty two weeks prior to this shooting and he did so after completing Aurora PD's reintegration program for officers after being involved in a shooting. This includes a psychological evaluation.
It is unusual for any officer to have killed two people in their entire career, much less two in less than two months. Maybe the first shooting had an affect on Officer Limbaugh. I would assume that it had to have had some impact as killing someone is not something that goes easy for normal people. Regardless of what anyone believes after viewing the video, the killing of Mr. Black seems to have been thoroughly investigated and it was reviewed by a prosecutor who determined that no charges should be brought against Officer Limbaugh...again. I don't know what happened afterward but I am certain the case was reviewed by IA for any indications of administrative wrong doing. I don't know if Officer Limbaugh is still employed by Aurora PD or in any law enforcement capacity. I assume that both the Harper family and the Black family hired attorney's and some sort of compensation was paid because that is the normal way of settling law suits even when there is no appearance of wrong doing.
I will not sit in judgement of Officer Limbaugh for killing Mr. Black. I will not sit in judgement of Mr. Black for killing Mr. Harper or not dropping his handgun when the officers were yelling at him to drop the gun. As was noted previously, it was a shitty situation all around. My opinion will not change that for either the living or the dead. I pray that none of us ever find ourselves in any of those places.
Be safe.
hollohas
01-04-2019, 07:43
This is one of the most chaotic home defense/invasion situations I have ever read about or seen. Absolutely insane.
I think the homeowner did everything right. I don't even question his not dropping his gun. He didn't know who was outside issuing commands. I actually argued in this forum many years ago that carrying a flashlight in hand rather than on a weapon might be a good idea for home defense because then you could identify good guys without pointing a gun at them. When confronted a 2nd time in mere seconds with unidentified individuals in/at his house he didn't immediately shoot. But instead he kept his gun at his side and raised his flashlight to identify the individuals first. Great, great job. But it didn't help him.
And that's my biggest issue with this situation. Cstone, you say the officers acted as most are trained but I think that must only be partially correct. Are they not also trained to identify themselves? Neither officer did in this case. A simple "POLICE!!!!!!" Could have been a world of difference in this case. They had time to issue multiple commands yet they never identified themselves. That must be trained. This homeowner may have responded to that (although it's speculation here, the homeowner was hearing impaired) but the point stands and should be a general procedure when police are entering a situation which all common sense indicates there a good guys in the house too. Identification is absolute importance.
All good self defense training teaches that identification is critical. This homeowner followed that doctrine even if he didn't have any training. And I know that LE is trained to identify first too. They train shoot/no shoot for similar situations. Does the guy raise a gun or a phone, a flashlight or a knife? Shoot/no shoot? Some agencies more than others...
All that said, I don't judge the officer either and I don't think this shoot was criminal. It's simply a tragic event every way you look at it.
But it's surely a grim reminder for us civilians that prepare for home defense. We can do everything right, and it still might not be enough. One thing that didn't happen here is the other residents didn't offer any help to the officers. Other residents MUST provide information to responding officer if the situation is still ongoing. Multiple people were asked what's up as the officers arrived but the information they provided was limited. We must teach our wives, children, roommates, etc to do this. Take 2 seconds to tell officers "My husband/Mom/Dad, is a good guy still in the with a gun. Don't shoot him/her". That little bit alone could help the officers wait a second longer to identify whoever it is holding a gun inside.
I appreciate the Aurora PD for releasing this video. Gives us all more to think about when we prepare for home defense.
hollohas
01-04-2019, 08:28
I'll add this too. LEO training should be more than just generic shoot/no-shoot. It's not as simple as "Guy with gun doesn't drop it = shoot" everytime. Situation should dictate.
For example. Guy just gets pulled over by clearly identified police (flashing lights, etc) on highway, gets out of car with gun, doesn't drop gun when commanded...that's a pretty clear threat and immediate shoot for LE.
Residence that clearly has lots of innocents around, dark outside, obvious home invasion/defense situation, guy doesn't drop gun immediately...maybe should dictate an additional few seconds to make sure guy with gun is a bad guy.
I know some LE agencies make distinctions like this in their extensive training and I know others do not in their more limited training. But it's a disservice if LEO's aren't given more situation based training.
Great-Kazoo
01-04-2019, 08:48
This is one of the most chaotic home defense/invasion situations I have ever read about or seen. Absolutely insane.
I think the homeowner did everything right. I don't even question his not dropping his gun. He didn't know who was outside issuing commands. could identify good guys without pointing a gun at them.
When confronted a 2nd time in mere seconds with unidentified individuals in/at his house he didn't immediately shoot. But instead he kept his gun at his side and raised his flashlight to identify the individuals first. Great, great job. But it didn't help him.
A simple "POLICE!!!!!!" Could have been a world of difference in this case. They had time to issue multiple commands yet they never identified themselves. That must be trained. This homeowner may have responded to that (although it's speculation here, the homeowner was hearing impaired) but the point stands and should be a general procedure when police are entering a situation which all common sense indicates there a good guys in the house too. Identification is absolute importance.
All good self defense training teaches that identification is critical. This homeowner followed that doctrine even if he didn't have any training. And I know that LE is trained to identify first too. They train shoot/no shoot for similar situations. Does the guy raise a gun or a phone, a flashlight or a knife? Shoot/no shoot? Some agencies more than others...
All that said, I don't judge the officer either and I don't think this shoot was criminal. It's simply a tragic event every way you look at it.
But it's surely a grim reminder for us civilians that prepare for home defense. We can do everything right, and it still might not be enough. One thing that didn't happen here is the other residents didn't offer any help to the officers. Other residents MUST provide information to responding officer if the situation is still ongoing. Multiple people were asked what's up as the officers arrived but the information they provided was limited. We must teach our wives, children, roommates, etc to do this. Take 2 seconds to tell officers "My husband/Mom/Dad, is a good guy still in the with a gun. Don't shoot him/her". That little bit alone could help the officers wait a second longer to identify whoever it is holding a gun inside.
I appreciate the Aurora PD for releasing this video. Gives us all more to think about when we prepare for home defense.
I deleted a few lines and cherry picking your post for a few reasons. Since there's no reason to quote your entire post.
There's a few issues with the incident
1: The deceased was hearing impaired.
2: firearm discharged in a confined space- the house.... You fire off a round w/out hearing protection, then listen to what you can or cannot hear. That itself was a major issue. It could be for anyone with good hearing, let alone the decreased capability to hear in a normal situation.
3: We must teach our wives, children, roommates, etc to do this. Take 2 seconds to tell officers "My husband/Mom/Dad, is a good guy still in the with a gun. Don't shoot him/her".
Here's my take based on what happened to my brother while trying to stop an armed robbery in progress. Multiple people were YELLING...HE'S THE GOOD GUY. HE'S A FEDERAL AGENT, DON'T SHOOT
Lets Start at beginning.
Brother walks in back door of pharmacy. Employees says we are being robbed, that's the guy, he has a gun. Brother issues command FEDERAL AGENT, DROP YOUR WEAPON YOU'RE UNDER ARREST!
After having what was clearly a gun pointed at him in the store. Brother discharges his service pistol, scores hit on BG. The scene then moved outside after BG flees. Brother tackles him, wrestling on the ground,.
In the few seconds, if that, of 2 people (Brother and piece of shit convict) wrestling on the ground. 4 hands on gun, shot goes off grazing retired le's head.
That retired LE came out of another store, after people in drug store ran for help. Shot who he "thought" was the BG based on his interpretation of the scene at that moment.
Turns out the one he "thought" was the BG was not, but a responding LE who himself acted in the moment. Based on what he was told by known employees of store.
SO you can have as many people yelling to the cops, who's who, even pointing out the good vs bad guy. Unfortunately tunnel vision and the 1-2-3+ responding LE's interpretation of what's happening at that moment. Can and will effect everyone involved for the rest of their lives.
Good shoot-Bad Shoot. While we all have opinions of what happened based on camera footage, etc. Not being in said officers shoes, will never truly know what was going on. Only what he said to investigators after the incident, of how he saw the scene playing out.
__________________________________________________ ____________________________________________
As a follow up of the incident that took our brothers life. The POS who started the chain of events that transpired. The gun he pointed at my brother. was a fuking pellet gun. .
In that case the situation wasn't one where color was involved. Just imagine if the BG been a P.O.C and information after investigation released, said the deceased was carrying a BB Gun.
Once again judgement call by my brother. He saw GUN! pointed at him. This after employees said they were robbed. How would you have responded as a LE in that scenario? Which IMO is a topic best done in a separate thread.
hollohas
01-04-2019, 09:01
SO you can have as many people yelling to the cops, who's who even pointing out the good vs bad guy. Unfortunately tunnel vision and that 1-2-3 LE's interpretation of what's happening at that moment. Can and will effect everyone involved for the rest of their lives.
Agreed. Sometimes shit happens. That's why I also agree with the decision not to discipline/charge the officer. This specific situation is simply tragic in every way. It went the way it went, there is no one to blame. Sucks, but that's the world sometimes. As my Dad always told me "Life's a bitch...and then you die".
That said, it's still valid to discuss these things because everyone can learn something from every situation.
PS - this home owner saved a life that night. That's a win in my book and I'm willing to bet that was his only concern at that moment. His family should be proud.
Great-Kazoo
01-04-2019, 09:22
I'll add this too. LEO training should be more than just generic shoot/no-shoot. It's not as simple as "Guy with gun doesn't drop it = shoot" everytime. Situation should dictate.
For example. Guy just gets pulled over by clearly identified police (flashing lights, etc) on highway, gets out of car with gun, doesn't drop gun when commanded...that's a pretty clear threat and immediate shoot for LE.
Residence that clearly has lots of innocents around, dark outside, obvious home invasion/defense situation, guy doesn't drop gun immediately...maybe should dictate an additional few seconds to make sure guy with gun is a bad guy.
I know some LE agencies make distinctions like this in their extensive training and I know others do not in their more limited training. But it's a disservice if LEO's aren't given more situation based training.
If you can try, finding one of the FATS or other "live" training exercises offered. Those seconds could mean the difference between your life or theirs ending. Even better, try finding a simunitions training course where you're engaged in a "live fire" exercise against others. Between the adrenaline flowing, having to make split second calls, etc it will open ones eyes , and mind.
Daniel Shaver did everything he was told and died in a hotel hallway for it.
I know. That story broke my heart, and made me crazy. Listened to Mark Geragos talk about it early on. Sounds like not much happens to cops in Arizona either. I know it's not Mayberry but we need to knock it of with the military style policing. I'm tired of being own of their threats. Some cops see us as enemy combatants. Anyone that says "it's only a few" is missing the point. Those rotten ones still have arrest powers and guns.
Something is lost in translation with my post. I'm not asking for judgement on anyone. I'm saying if you kill someone that shouldn't have been killed, then you can get another job.
I agree with the sentiment that life's not fair, but why should that end at the wrong person getting killed? I'd take being fired over being dead any day.
Lousy situation. Does the family have any legal recourse against the officer or PD for wrongful death?
Great-Kazoo
01-04-2019, 10:31
Lousy situation. Does the family have any legal recourse against the officer or PD for wrongful death?
That's usually settled between the family and city , possibly the officer as well in a civil suit.
Something is lost in translation with my post. I'm not asking for judgement on anyone. I'm saying if you kill someone that shouldn't have been killed, then you can get another job.
I agree with the sentiment that life's not fair, but why should that end at the wrong person getting killed? I'd take being fired over being dead any day.
I'm with you 100%. Early on in the thread I mentioned "carried by six", though I might need seven myself. I'd even say he made the right decision based on his perspective. Just don't this guy walking around with a badge and gun. He needs to pick one or the other.
That's usually settled between the family and city , possibly the officer as well in a civil suit.
The officer will have qualified immunity, as the incident occured while he was on duty, and the investigation found no wrongdoing. The city, on the other hand, will settle out of court for 7 figures.
I'm not entirely comfortable bringing up what I did in this particular thread, because I feel like I can understand why the situation in the Black house ended the way that it did.
I'm generally not an aggressive person, but just about all of my physical encounters with people in my life occurred within the two to six months after I got jumped down in Denver once. I was hyper aggressive for awhile after that and definitely made engagements that I shouldn't have. With that personal experience in mind, I look at the Black situation and feel I can relate on some level as to why everything that transpired did. In short, that officer had to have still been amped after his previous engagement, and if he's working, he didn't have the option to just not get involved in a situation. So again, I'm not trying to make a judgement on the officer that killed Mr. Black, but it's certainly not an over reach to lose your job if you kill someone that wasn't supposed to be killed in my opinion.
Further clarification, I haven't, and won't watch the video, or read the report, for the sole reason that I know that I'll have interactions with police in the future, and I don't want to have those future interactions shaded with negativity from me watching a bunch of stuff that will piss me off. It's very easy to only look at sensationalized events and build an incorrect impression based on events of generally low occurrence rates. Hope that makes sense.
I agree, Mr. Black was the wrong person to be killed. The question is: What did Officer Limbaugh do wrong?
Firing an employee because the outcome was bad is different than firing an employee because their actions were bad.
Watching the video in this case has made me think through former Weirton WV police officer Stephen Mader’s termination. When deadly force is legal, is it required?
hollohas
01-04-2019, 13:31
When deadly force is legal, is it required?
And how often is that question posed to LEO's, both new and experienced? In some agencies, I know it's a common question, in others, I'm not sure it's ever asked.
Great-Kazoo
01-04-2019, 13:39
And how often is that question posed to LEO's, both new and experienced? In some agencies, I know it's a common question, in others, I'm not sure it's ever asked.
Based on the parkland review board. The answer is, no it's not required.
And how often is that question posed to LEO's, both new and experienced? In some agencies, I know it's a common question, in others, I'm not sure it's ever asked.
I think it is a question everyone who carries a gun needs to answer for themselves. Ask the question of yourself frequently because when the time comes to answer the question for real, you will probably have a second or two to make the correct decision; and the correct decision you make will not be the correct decision for everyone else who reviews your actions afterward.
<MADDOG>
01-04-2019, 15:03
If you can try, finding one of the FATS or other "live" training exercises offered. Those seconds could mean the difference between your life or theirs ending. Even better, try finding a simunitions training course where you're engaged in a "live fire" exercise against others. Between the adrenaline flowing, having to make split second calls, etc it will open ones eyes , and mind.
This.
Horrible situation all around in this one.
Martinjmpr
01-04-2019, 15:08
When deadly force is legal, is it required?
And how often is that question posed to LEO's, both new and experienced? In some agencies, I know it's a common question, in others, I'm not sure it's ever asked.
Based on the parkland review board. The answer is, no it's not required.
Deadly force is a means to an end, not an end in itself, so I don't see how it could ever be "required" under any circumstances. The question that the Parkland review board had to answer was whether the police department had an affirmative, legally enforceable duty to the victims of the shooting.
It's pretty well established law that public safety officials (police, fire, paramedics, etc) don't owe a legally enforceable duty to anybody to protect them from harm and there are a number of reasons for that, not the least of which is that trying to enforce such a 'duty' would quickly bankrupt every state or municipal entity in the country.
By required, I didn't mean legally but administratively, morally, socially? While Deputy Peterson had no legal obligation to enter the building during the shooting, I believe the majority of people reviewing his actions have determined that he did have an obligation in the other three areas. I don't believe any random armed citizen would have the same obligations. There were armed citizens in the parking lot, and in close proximity to the shooter, in Tucson on January 8, 2011, and none of them shot Jared Loughner as he killed six people and wounded thirteen others.
The Stephen Mader termination in WV was interesting to me for several reasons. It rests on an ethos of being able to pull the trigger when it is necessary. If you don't, some will judge you as a coward. If you do, some will judge you as a cowboy, or worse, a power hungry, jackboot thug who gets some sort of thrill out of killing people. In his former department he was judged to be unsuited to be an officer because he endangered his co-workers and forced his co-worker to do what needed to be done. Mader didn't see it that way. His own version of it was that he didn't feel the need to shoot the armed suspect. Something in his personal experience lead him to believe that while lethal force was justified, it was not necessary. Upon review, the shooting was ruled justified. Mader was terminated based on the lack of trust the department had in him. Mader sued the department for wrongful termination and won a judgment of $170,000 from the city of Weirton. Does the judgment in a civil case vindicate the decision Mader made? Given that police officers in Weirton, WV made $34,000 per year, that is about five years pay. I'm guessing the Chief feels that he got a good deal by paying a coward five years of pay to be rid of him.
If you can't tell, I spend too much time reading and reviewing these types of incidents. Seems to me that the one thing I learn over and over is; "You can do everything right and still be wrong." We each need to make decisions in life. The tough part is learning to live the with the decisions we've made.
Be safe.
Something in his personal experience lead him to believe that while lethal force was justified, it was not necessary.
I think this is important. I've heard first hand accounts, and we've all heard many not first hand accounts of situations where lethal force would have been justified. People like to engage in a type of bar talk mentality and chime in with all kinds of "I would have shot him right where he stood!" kind of chest pounding. We've all made comments like that. I can just about guarantee that very few of the people who would have been justified in pulling the trigger on someone, but didn't, aren't laying awake at night wishing that they had.
DireWolf
01-04-2019, 17:33
There were armed citizens in the parking lot, and in close proximity to the shooter, in Tucson on January 8, 2011, and none of them shot Jared Loughner as he killed six people and wounded thirteen others.
I don't recall the specifics of that incident off the top of my head, and as such may be missing something, but how much of that "non-engagement" may have been directly related to:
1. none of those so-armed were directly targeted
2. knowledge that any possible detail of their action(s), no matter how small/insignificant, which could be second-guessed after the fact by an aggressive prosecutor would at best result in massive legal fee and loss of employment, or jail-time at worst
My guess would be alot...What's that saying, "No good deed goes unpunished"?
There seems to be what could be considered "negative grey-area" for anyone who is not current/retired LEO when it comes to this kind of thing, and once again possible I'm missing something, but I don't see how holding everyone to a similar standard is a bad thing.
I agree, Mr. Black was the wrong person to be killed. The question is: What did Officer Limbaugh do wrong?
In the camera you can clearly see the pistol (looks like a 1911) in his right hand with the barrel pointed downwards. He tilts the flash light in his left hand up, which is when the cop shoots him twice. The cop then shoots him once more in the back, as he's lying on the ground.
The cop had been under investigation about 6 months prior for another shooting.
Well, shit. I must've dreamed that whole 7 days in federal district court defending myself against a multi-million dollar civil suit against me both personally and professionally as a law enforcement officer for "doing my job".
I can't even begin to comment on the remainder of your post without getting myself in trouble. But let's just say you've set the bar pretty low for further discussion.
This!!!
ChickNorris
01-05-2019, 10:58
I heard someone was flirting in here...
BushMasterBoy
01-05-2019, 11:36
. my new signature
Snowman78
01-05-2019, 19:57
I heard someone was flirting in here...
LOL!
OtterbatHellcat
01-05-2019, 23:36
Speaking AS one of the redheaded stepchildren on the forum, it's cool to see what folks think about stuff, and opinions will differ.
We're kinda family here, hash and move on I figure. Ain't worth having good fellers stuck on one thing in a bad way.
2 cents anyways. :)
theGinsue
01-06-2019, 00:10
We're 127 (counting mine) posts in and what needed to be said (info/facts) has been said. All that is left is for more statements on folks positions to the known facts and replies in the form of either agreement or disagreement. The disagreements aren't being presented as friendly as I'd prefer them to be within our community. I think it's time to close this thread.
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